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Title: Tony Mandarich
Post by: Dos Equis on March 07, 2009, 04:11:44 PM
Anyone remember this?  Saw this on CNN/SI today.  I have this copy packed away somewhere.  He was a total chemical creation.  Many thought he was going to be the greatest O-lineman ever.   

(http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/1989/0424_large.jpg)

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/cover/featured/9169/index.htm?eref=sircrc&eref=sisf
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: CARTEL on March 07, 2009, 04:17:50 PM
One of the most over-hyped prospects ever.
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: Dos Equis on March 07, 2009, 04:42:28 PM
No doubt.  GB took him over Barry and Deion. 
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: UPINTHEMGUTS on March 07, 2009, 05:12:34 PM
His combine numbers were insane. Ran a 4.65 40 yeard dash. Bench pressed 225 lbs. 39 times.

But like Beach already said...total chemical concoction with a big mouth. But totally came clean about everything and even admitted that he was a joke.
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: Andy Griffin on March 08, 2009, 04:21:44 PM
True journalists try to avoid using terms such as "best (or worst) ever," but then again, who said the magazine folks were journalists?  I imagine that Tony Mandarich:  Good Potential wouldn't sell too many copies, so the magazines just give the people what they want. 
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: body88 on March 09, 2009, 06:00:35 AM
Mandarich was a huge bust....but he did go on to have a pretty long pro career.  He was a decent player.
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: UPINTHEMGUTS on March 09, 2009, 07:36:57 AM
Mandarich was a huge bust....but he did go on to have a pretty long pro career.  He was a decent player.

he was horrible! He wasn't a good player in any capacity during his career. His career was not as long as you think. He played three years with Green Bay, got released, and made a respectable comeback in 1995 with the Colts and was out of football again two years later.
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: body88 on March 09, 2009, 08:32:30 AM
he was horrible! He wasn't a good player in any capacity during his career. His career was not as long as you think. He played three years with Green Bay, got released, and made a respectable comeback in 1995 with the Colts and was out of football again two years later.

Like I said, he had a decent pro career.  I never said he was a good player.  Lots of guys sit on the practice squad for their entire careers and they don't start. 6 years is the average NFL career, I believe.  Mandarich was a huge bust, but he was your average run of the mill jag who stayed in the NFL for 6 years and from 96-98 was noteworthy with the Colts.

To me, a guy like Leaf is worse.  At least Manderich was able to contribute something to his team.  He was a bust, but at least he did something.
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: Dos Equis on March 09, 2009, 11:57:13 AM
he was horrible! He wasn't a good player in any capacity during his career. His career was not as long as you think. He played three years with Green Bay, got released, and made a respectable comeback in 1995 with the Colts and was out of football again two years later.

I agree.  He in no way, shape, or form, had a good career.  To keep things in perspective, Green Bay drafted him over Barry Sanders and Deion Sanders, both HOF players.  Imagine what Favre in his prime would have done handing the ball off to Barry in his prime.   

Mandarich started 63 games in 6 years.  Never played up to his draft status.  A good career for an OT is at least ten years.  I think Leaf is probably the biggest bust in NFL history, but Mandarich would definitely be in my top 5.   
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: UPINTHEMGUTS on March 09, 2009, 02:41:32 PM
Like I said, he had a decent pro career.  I never said he was a good player.  Lots of guys sit on the practice squad for their entire careers and they don't start. 6 years is the average NFL career, I believe.  Mandarich was a huge bust, but he was your average run of the mill jag who stayed in the NFL for 6 years and from 96-98 was noteworthy with the Colts.

To me, a guy like Leaf is worse.  At least Manderich was able to contribute something to his team.  He was a bust, but at least he did something.

Body88...this guy was the #2 overall selection in the 1989 draft. #2....just like Leaf. Came into the NFL on a tidal wave of hype. You can't compare this guy to practice squad players. practice squad players are not selected in the top 5. Hell, not even in the first round. IMO, he was just as big a bust as Ryan leaf. The guy didn't even have a decent career. As soon as he was off the juice in the NFL, he was getting manhandled by every defensive end on the league. He was pathetic.

don't mean to jump down your throat because I do respect your opinions.
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: body88 on March 09, 2009, 02:58:28 PM
Body88...this guy was the #2 overall selection in the 1989 draft. #2....just like Leaf. Came into the NFL on a tidal wave of hype. You can't compare this guy to practice squad players. practice squad players are not selected in the top 5. Hell, not even in the first round. IMO, he was just as big a bust as Ryan leaf. The guy didn't even have a decent career. As soon as he was off the juice in the NFL, he was getting manhandled by every defensive end on the league. He was pathetic.

don't mean to jump down your throat because I do respect your opinions.

It's cool!  As I said, the guy was a total bust!!!!  But he was a average to decent player for the 6 years he was in the NFL....thats all : )
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: UPINTHEMGUTS on March 09, 2009, 03:39:20 PM
It's cool!  As I said, the guy was a total bust!!!!  But he was a average to decent player for the 6 years he was in the NFL....thats all : )

Respectfully disagree about being decent. He was awful, which is obviously worse than average.
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: Internet Tough Guy on March 09, 2009, 04:45:32 PM
His record against the Steelers was better than the Baltimore Browns'.
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: UPINTHEMGUTS on March 09, 2009, 07:33:31 PM
His record against the Steelers was better than the Baltimore Browns'.

Whoa! Rim Shot!

You should take the act out on the road, tough guy.....
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: Doug_Steele on March 09, 2009, 10:35:32 PM
I loved that dude and i thought it was phenominal when Bo called him out and saw that he was on the juice. I remember meeting that dude when i was like 7 when MICHIGAN played Michigan State.
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: body88 on March 10, 2009, 05:48:23 AM
I loved that dude and i thought it was phenominal when Bo called him out and saw that he was on the juice. I remember meeting that dude when i was like 7 when MICHIGAN played Michigan State.

Lol at calling out Tony for being on the juice......50-60% of college athletes are!
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: UPINTHEMGUTS on March 10, 2009, 07:17:13 AM
Lol at calling out Tony for being on the juice......50-60% of college athletes are!

Really? You think the % is that high?  Not too many phenomonally gifted athletes left out there anymore that don't need anabolics??
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: CalvinH on March 10, 2009, 08:07:28 AM
Really? You think the % is that high?  Not too many phenomonally gifted athletes left out there anymore that don't need anabolics??


He might be short on his guess :-\ I'm no expert but I heard that at least a majority of red-shirt freshmen juice.
a good friend of mine has a son that was a good player here in CT. the kid and his father took a recruiting trip to a Div 2 school.and the coach told both of them that he was gonna have to juice to get bigger{he never said the words steroids but it was very apparent what he meant}....hell,2 of the local high schools in my area have been accused of their kids juicing for football with the coaches supposedly knowing all about it.
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: 2ND COMING on March 10, 2009, 08:23:52 AM
i would say atleast half are on something....

coming out of highschool, i see a lot of lb'ers around 6'1''-6'3'' like 210-225 pds. Thats not gonna cut it.

Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: body88 on March 10, 2009, 10:34:16 AM
Really? You think the % is that high?  Not too many phenomonally gifted athletes left out there anymore that don't need anabolics??

Yes. I played at a small NCAA school for a year and a lot of guys juiced.  If yoru dream was to play pro ball and you played for major program, would you juice if it could help you get into the NFL?

It might be higher than 60%
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: Dos Equis on March 12, 2009, 11:19:20 AM
Yes. I played at a small NCAA school for a year and a lot of guys juiced.  If yoru dream was to play pro ball and you played for major program, would you juice if it could help you get into the NFL?

It might be higher than 60%

I think it's at least 60 percent. 
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: UPINTHEMGUTS on March 12, 2009, 01:12:14 PM
The what happens when they get into the pro's? They stop juicing? If they needed juice to get to the pro level to begin with, then what happens when they go pro? They stay on cycle throughout the season, every year to stay above the competition??

Maybe I'm naive but don't think that's the case. I still think the % is lower than 60%.
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: Dos Equis on March 12, 2009, 01:35:57 PM
The what happens when they get into the pro's? They stop juicing? If they needed juice to get to the pro level to begin with, then what happens when they go pro? They stay on cycle throughout the season, every year to stay above the competition??

Maybe I'm naive but don't think that's the case. I still think the % is lower than 60%.

They're still on the sauce in the pros IMO.  They have to keep doing it to stay competitive.  I think it depends on positions.  Not many QBs, lots of D-lineman, not many kickers, lots of LBs, etc.
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: wild willie on April 01, 2009, 12:38:28 PM
Tony Mandrich had a decent career..... he was a little over hyped but he at least played for a while...... 2 of the most over hyped guys ever were Trev Alberts of Nebraska and Ryan Leaf of Washington State.
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: UPINTHEMGUTS on April 01, 2009, 02:13:52 PM
Tony Mandrich had a decent career..... he was a little over hyped but he at least played for a while...... 2 of the most over hyped guys ever were Trev Alberts of Nebraska and Ryan Leaf of Washington State.

Injuries derailed Trev Alberts career. He was a sensational player coming out of Nebraska. White boy too. If not for serious shoulder injuries his first two years, I think he would have been a very good player in the NFL.
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: Doug_Steele on April 01, 2009, 03:47:12 PM
Tony Mandrich had a decent career..... he was a little over hyped but he at least played for a while...... 2 of the most over hyped guys ever were Trev Alberts of Nebraska and Ryan Leaf of Washington State.

Rick Leach was also a highly touted player that turned out to be a BUST
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: regmac on April 24, 2009, 02:38:37 PM
No doubt.  GB took him over Barry and Deion. 
Drafting's like a box of chocalates!!!
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: Dos Equis on April 24, 2009, 03:22:35 PM
Drafting's like a box of chocalates!!!

You got that right.  You really don't know if you're getting Manning or Leaf. 
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: regmac on April 24, 2009, 03:30:37 PM
Believe it or not Chase Daniels may end up being the Tom Brady (drafted or not) of all the opther qb's. The only thing against him is is hight, other than that he was one of the most outstanding qbs this year and last.   I am hoping Dallas nabs him in the 5th just to play it safe.
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: Andy Griffin on April 24, 2009, 03:31:14 PM
You got that right.  You really don't know if you're getting Manning or Leaf. 

Eddie George or Lawrence Phillips.  (note:  I don't know if they were the same draft class...just making another boom vs bust comparison)
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: Grape Ape on April 24, 2009, 03:58:16 PM
The what happens when they get into the pro's? They stop juicing? If they needed juice to get to the pro level to begin with, then what happens when they go pro? They stay on cycle throughout the season, every year to stay above the competition??

Maybe I'm naive but don't think that's the case. I still think the % is lower than 60%.

I read in one of the steroid book (can't remember which one) that said the NFL drug test was easy to beat.  Anyway, they only were able to detect THG because someone sent them a sample, so it's not naive to think there's a  ton of other undetectable, designer drugs out there.

I think it's the same with baseball.  Guys still use, but are careful not to get the ripped Luiz Gonzalez / Bentio Santiago look, or bulk up too much.
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: Dos Equis on April 24, 2009, 04:03:34 PM
Eddie George or Lawrence Phillips.  (note:  I don't know if they were the same draft class...just making another boom vs bust comparison)

Yep.  Same draft.  1996.  Some other notables from that draft:

1st - Me-Shawn

18th - Eddie Kennison

19th - Marvin Harrison

26th - Ray Lewis
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: andreisdaman on April 24, 2009, 09:14:44 PM
biggest busts in NFL history

Tony Mandarich

Brian Bosworth

Ryan Leaf

Art Schlicter (gambling and jail)
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: Doug_Steele on April 24, 2009, 10:01:22 PM
Archie Griffin  ;D
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: andreisdaman on April 25, 2009, 02:54:49 PM
Archie Griffin  ;D




Archie wasn't really a bust..just an average player....played a number of years
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: Andy Griffin on April 25, 2009, 03:05:00 PM



Archie wasn't really a bust..just an average player....played a number of years

Kind of an Aundray Bruce-like figure.
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: jerseyhurricane on April 25, 2009, 06:42:28 PM
Robert Gallery reminds me of Mandarich sort of.
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: njflex on April 28, 2009, 11:20:10 AM
biggest busts in NFL history

Tony Mandarich

Brian Bosworth

Ryan Leaf

Art Schlicter (gambling and jail)
colts steve ettman,was another monster type with avg career.
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: Andy Griffin on April 28, 2009, 02:20:46 PM
colts steve ettman,was another monster type with avg career.

True, although I take a softer view on him since his career was hampered by injuries as opposed to being a knucklehead. 
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: andreisdaman on April 28, 2009, 02:44:52 PM
Todd Marinovich......QB picked by Oakland....super bust!!!!
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: Doug_Steele on April 28, 2009, 05:28:48 PM
Maurice Claurett  :D
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: njflex on April 28, 2009, 07:36:52 PM
here's an old school player remember eric dorsey giants,not a bust but kind of a pre strahan type with potential,was huge saw him at movies with what was known at the time a blond type white girl hot ,he had traps that started at the ears and big arms.
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: andreisdaman on April 29, 2009, 12:24:50 PM
Recent bust......REGGIE BUSH
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: Dos Equis on April 29, 2009, 12:30:40 PM
I don't think Bush is a bust.  A little injury prone, but very good player.  Probably a little early to judge him too.   
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: ATHEIST on April 29, 2009, 01:17:30 PM
I don't think Bush is a bust.  A little injury prone, but very good player.  Probably a little early to judge him too.   

to be taken as what the second pick in the draft? and all the hype about him coming out of college..and now he's not an every down back though he may be solid as a kick returner, he is near being a bust i would say. Im sure there are players picked in that same draft that who are more valuable to their team. The Texans made the right choice.

Matt Leinhart is also a bust, though he did drop in the draft.

hopefully Colt can move up the the 2nd spot!
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: njflex on April 29, 2009, 01:25:27 PM
to be taken as what the second pick in the draft? and all the hype about him coming out of college..and now he's not an every down back though he may be solid as a kick returner, he is near being a bust i would say. Im sure there are players picked in that same draft that who are more valuable to their team. The Texans made the right choice.

Matt Leinhart is also a bust, though he did drop in the draft.

hopefully Colt can move up the the 2nd spot!
MAtt gets a pass due to warner's hot hand right now.
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: ATHEIST on April 29, 2009, 04:29:09 PM
MAtt gets a pass due to warner's hot hand right now.

but they tried to hand him the team a few times already. Warner has been hot for a few years now in AZ with the same weapons that Leinhar had. this is the first year going in to the season that AZ has had an official starter, the previous years it was either Leinhart penciled in as the starter or an open comp. i really have no faith in the guy already.

i remember Dan Mcguire also from San Diego State, marks brother he was like 6'8" or something and highly touted as an nfl prospect.

and Michael Stonbreaker from Notre Dame the LB..
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: andreisdaman on April 29, 2009, 04:49:07 PM
that quarterback for the Tennessee Titans, Vince Young, might become a bust if he doesn't get his job back from Kerry Collins
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: Dos Equis on April 29, 2009, 06:12:04 PM
to be taken as what the second pick in the draft? and all the hype about him coming out of college..and now he's not an every down back though he may be solid as a kick returner, he is near being a bust i would say. Im sure there are players picked in that same draft that who are more valuable to their team. The Texans made the right choice.

Matt Leinhart is also a bust, though he did drop in the draft.

hopefully Colt can move up the the 2nd spot!

I think he should have been the first overall pick.  His production has been pretty good over three years, especially given that he was in RBBC with McAllister and others:

1550 yards rushing, 12 TDs
1599 yards receiving, 8 TDs
4 TDs on punt returns

I wouldn't call that a bust at all. 

I never liked Leinart.  Always thought he was overrated.  But I think it's too early to call him a bust too. 

I think Colt can be the QB2.  He was on 1420 the other morning and said he is about 90 percent healthy.  Did you hear they also signed Chase Daniels? 
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: Doug_Steele on April 29, 2009, 06:41:12 PM
Mike Williams out of U$C and Charles Rodgers out of M$U

My poor Lions  :'(
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: Dos Equis on April 29, 2009, 07:21:18 PM
Mike Williams out of U$C and Charles Rodgers out of M$U

My poor Lions  :'(

At least they didn't draft a WR in the first this year.   :)
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: Earl1972 on April 29, 2009, 07:25:39 PM


Maybe I'm naive but don't think that's the case.

you are

i'd say at least 80% are on something

E
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: jerseyhurricane on April 30, 2009, 01:33:42 PM
I think he should have been the first overall pick.  His production has been pretty good over three years, especially given that he was in RBBC with McAllister and others:

1550 yards rushing, 12 TDs
1599 yards receiving, 8 TDs
4 TDs on punt returns

I wouldn't call that a bust at all. 
   

 that would be okay if it was 1 or 2 seasons worth... especially for a #2 overall pick.
There's no way he should have been drafted over Mario Williams...even though I thought that the Texans made a mistake back then. Thank God I'm not a GM.
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: andreisdaman on May 01, 2009, 11:15:19 AM
Heath Shuler....QB picked by the Redskins.....they gave this guy a ton of dough and had him doing a lot of stuff in the community like he was the mayor or something....Bust
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: body88 on May 01, 2009, 12:05:04 PM
I think he should have been the first overall pick.  His production has been pretty good over three years, especially given that he was in RBBC with McAllister and others:

1550 yards rushing, 12 TDs
1599 yards receiving, 8 TDs
4 TDs on punt returns

I wouldn't call that a bust at all. 

I never liked Leinart.  Always thought he was overrated.  But I think it's too early to call him a bust too. 

I think Colt can be the QB2.  He was on 1420 the other morning and said he is about 90 percent healthy.  Did you hear they also signed Chase Daniels? 


2008  New Orleans Saints  10  9  106 404 3.8
2007  New Orleans Saints  12 10 157 581 3.7
2006  New Orleans Saints  16  8  155 565 3.6


Bush has created 1150 yards rushing (516 per year) and 1600 yards receiving (533 per year) with a 3.6 ypc avg over the last 3 years (That ypc avg is poor). 8 td's per year over three years for the 24 td's.  This cost the Saints 20 million + in guaranteed money.  You could have drafted a rb and a wr in the second and third round that could match that same production over three years for under 4 million bucks in guaranteed money.  Bush = bad draft choice.  Actually, the Saints could have had Jone Drew at #43 and Brandon Marshal at #108, traded down from their first rounder with some retard who thought Bush was a great player and had Antonio Cromartie (while creating an extra second or third rounder for 2007).

Hindsight is 20/20 but you get the point.  Bush takes away from what the saints could add with his high cost vs production ratio.  What you listed is not worth what he is being paid.

Bush is a crappy rb who is to small to be an every down player.  he's explosive but pretty much ineffective in between the tackles and is hurt all the time.  He's a good pass catcher, but so what, they throw the ball every down.  Williams was by far the better choice.
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: Dos Equis on May 01, 2009, 01:59:14 PM

2008  New Orleans Saints  10  9  106 404 3.8
2007  New Orleans Saints  12 10 157 581 3.7
2006  New Orleans Saints  16  8  155 565 3.6


Bush has created 1150 yards rushing (516 per year) and 1600 yards receiving (533 per year) with a 3.6 ypc avg over the last 3 years (awful). 8 td's per year over three years for the 24 td's.  This cost the Saints 20 million + in guaranteed money.  You could have drafted a rb and a wr in the second and third round that could match that same production over three years for under 4 million bucks in guaranteed money.  Bush = bad draft choice.  Actually, the Saints could have had Jone Drew at #43 and Brandon Marshal at #108, traded down from their first rounder with some retard who thought Bush was a great player and had Antonio Cromartie (while creating an extra second or third rounder for 2007).

off the top of my head the saints would have:

A beast of a second rb
A pro bowl wr
And a pro bowl cb
+ a draft pick
For one Reggie Bush.

Hidsight is 20/20 but you get the point.

Bush is a crappy rb who is to small to be an every down player.  He's a good pass catcher, but so what, they throw the ball every down.  Williams was by far the better choice.

Yes it is hindsight.  They also could have drafted Hester in the second.  I can look at the draft of any team in the league and find eggs all over the place.   

A crappy RB?  Hardly.  His numbers are based on sharing the load with McAllister and others.  I think he's extremely talented.  Hard to underestimate the importance of punt return TDs.  Those are typically game-changing plays.  He's a threat to go the distance every time he touches the ball. 

Given what was on the table, I would have rather had him than Williams or Vince Young. 

Also, he's one of the best dual threats in the game IMO. 
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: Earl1972 on May 01, 2009, 02:01:08 PM
bush was supposed to be the michael jordan of football, everybody said the texans were stupid for taking williams over bush and even vince young

i don't know if i'd call him a bust but arguably the most overhyped player ever

E
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: body88 on May 01, 2009, 02:30:01 PM
Yes it is hindsight.  They also could have drafted Hester in the second.  I can look at the draft of any team in the league and find eggs all over the place.   

A crappy RB?  Hardly.  His numbers are based on sharing the load with McAllister and others.  I think he's extremely talented.  Hard to underestimate the importance of punt return TDs.  Those are typically game-changing plays.  He's a threat to do the distance every time he touches the ball. 

Given what was on the table, I would have rather had him than Williams or Vince Young. 

Also, he's one of the best dual threats in the game IMO. 


Heres the bottom line.  The saints paid 20+ million in guaranteed money over the last three years for 516 rushing yards per year, 550 receiving yards per year, 8 td's per year and a 3.6 ypc average.  Not to mention the guy is always hurt so he cant even play in a full 16 games.  Thats a bad investment and the same production can be had by smart drafting and smart veteran pick ups - for much less money. 
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: Dos Equis on May 01, 2009, 03:11:49 PM

Heres the bottom line.  The saints paid 20+ million in guaranteed money over the last three years for 516 rushing yards per year, 550 receiving yards per year, 8 td's per year and a 3.6 ypc average.  Not to mention the guy is always hurt so he cant even play in a full 16 games.  Thats a bad investment and the same production can be had by smart drafting and smart veteran pick ups - for much less money. 

Using hindsight, you are absolutely correct.  Using hindsight, I can draft an All Pro team every year.  But in looking at what was on the table and how players were evaluated going into the draft, with the only true choices being Young, Williams, or Bush, I think the Saints made the right choice.   
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: body88 on May 01, 2009, 05:13:10 PM
Using hindsight, you are absolutely correct.  Using hindsight, I can draft an All Pro team every year.  But in looking at what was on the table and how players were evaluated going into the draft, with the only true choices being Young, Williams, or Bush, I think the Saints made the right choice.   

I'm not using hindsight.  I'm saying that after three years Williams was the far better choice.  I have been arguing your point about Bush being "productive" over the last three years and saying you would have taken him first overall even after seeing how things panned out. 

I know one thing: 516 rushing yards per year, 550 receiving yards per year, 8 td's per year and a 3.6 ypc average is horrible for the number two pick in the draft at the three year point.

Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: Dos Equis on May 01, 2009, 05:23:23 PM
I'm not using hindsight.  I'm saying that after three years Williams was the far better choice.  I have been arguing your point about Bush being "productive" over the last three years and saying you would have taken him first overall even after seeing how things panned out. 

I know one thing: 516 rushing yards per year, 550 receiving yards per year, 8 td's per year and a 3.6 ypc average is horrible for the number two pick in the draft at the three year point.



Don't forget the 4 return TDs.  Not horrible at all given the fact he was splitting time. 
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: body88 on May 01, 2009, 07:10:07 PM
Don't forget the 4 return TDs.  Not horrible at all given the fact he was splitting time. 

I didn't....if not for those return td's Bush, would have averaged 6.6 td's per year.  Look, Bush is not a bust as an NFL player, he is a bust as a sensationalized prospect who was taken much higher than he should have been.  He's not in the realm of a Peterson.  Thats a top 3 pick!  His return on the Saints investment has been poor.  They gave the guy what, 25 million up front? 

However, he does help them sell tickets, so all is not lost.
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: jerseyhurricane on May 02, 2009, 09:21:28 AM
Reggie Bush... can you say Blair Thomas???
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: Dos Equis on May 02, 2009, 12:31:27 PM
I didn't....if not for those return td's Bush, would have averaged 6.6 td's per year.  Look, Bush is not a bust as an NFL player, he is a bust as a sensationalized prospect who was taken much higher than he should have been.  He's not in the realm of a Peterson.  Thats a top 3 pick!  His return on the Saints investment has been poor.  They gave the guy what, 25 million up front? 

However, he does help them sell tickets, so all is not lost.

No he isn't AP, who as of today is the best RB in the NFL IMO.  But AP wasn't in the 2006 draft. 

I think his only major problem has been injuries.  He played in 16 games as a rookie, 12 in 07, and 10 last year.  If they start him and he plays 16 games he'll be pretty good. 
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: Dos Equis on May 02, 2009, 12:32:25 PM
Reggie Bush... can you say Blair Thomas???

Not even close. 
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: 2ND COMING on May 02, 2009, 12:38:05 PM
I didn't....if not for those return td's Bush, would have averaged 6.6 td's per year.  Look, Bush is not a bust as an NFL player, he is a bust as a sensationalized prospect who was taken much higher than he should have been.  He's not in the realm of a Peterson.  Thats a top 3 pick!  His return on the Saints investment has been poor.  They gave the guy what, 25 million up front? 

However, he does help them sell tickets, so all is not lost.

yep.

i would never take a specialist that high. Only pass rushers go that high..and even then they should be an every down player.

He wasan everydown guy in college. The pro's..not so much
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: Dos Equis on May 02, 2009, 01:16:25 PM
yep.

i would never take a specialist that high. Only pass rushers go that high..and even then they should be an every down player.

He wasan everydown guy in college. The pro's..not so much

He split carriesw with Lendale White at USC. 
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: 2ND COMING on May 02, 2009, 01:34:50 PM
He split carriesw with Lendale White at USC. 


OH SHIT REALLY? LIKE, I NEVER KNEW THAT.
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: Dos Equis on May 02, 2009, 01:54:13 PM

OH SHIT REALLY? LIKE, I NEVER KNEW THAT.

Apparently you didn't, because you said he was an every down back at USC:


Quote

He wasan everydown guy in college. The pro's..not so much

So which is it?  Did you know or were you simply pulling stuff out of your rear end again? 
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: andreisdaman on May 02, 2009, 02:19:40 PM
Reggie Bush... can you say Blair Thomas???




I was gonna say Blair Thomas....but I didn't think anyone would remember him!!!! ;D
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: 2ND COMING on May 02, 2009, 04:07:48 PM
Apparently you didn't, because you said he was an every down back at USC:



So which is it?  Did you know or were you simply pulling stuff out of your rear end again? 

every down back as in, them using him on 1-3 downs.

nice try buddy.
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: Dos Equis on May 02, 2009, 04:24:03 PM
every down back as in, them using him on 1-3 downs.

nice try buddy.

lol.  Nice spin.  He's used exactly the same way in NO that he was used at USC:  1st through 3rd downs, but split with another RB. 
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: 2ND COMING on May 02, 2009, 04:29:55 PM
lol.  Nice spin.  He's used exactly the same way in NO that he was used at USC:  1st through 3rd downs, but split with another RB. 

how is that spin. It's your fault for thinking that "every down back" meant that they used him on every down and only him. People know the term every down back means a complete back...the game is a llot different in the pros.

yes they tried to use him as an every down back in N.O. but that failed, he can't run between tackles and pound it...therefor he isn't an every down back, only situational. Duece got the dive plays the first couple years. Last year it was pierre thomas
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: Dos Equis on May 02, 2009, 04:38:32 PM
how is that spin. It's your fault for thinking that "every down back" meant that they used him on every down and only him. People know the term every down back means a complete back...the game is a llot different in the pros.

yes they tried to use him as an every down back in N.O. but that failed, he can't run between tackles and pound it...therefor he isn't an every down back, only situational. Duece got the dive plays the first couple years. Last year it was pierre thomas

[sigh]  Wrong again.  Deuce was not a short yardage back.  He started.  Bush rotated.  They rotated series, not situations.  That means Bush would play an entire series:  1st, 2nd, and 3rd down. 

What's a dive play?  I think they might run those plays in high school, maybe Pop Warner.   :) 
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: 2ND COMING on May 02, 2009, 04:43:47 PM
[sigh]  Wrong again.  Deuce was not a short yardage back.  He started.  Bush rotated.  They rotated series, not situations.  That means Bush would play an entire series:  1st, 2nd, and 3rd down. 

what the hell are you talking about man?

Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: Dos Equis on May 02, 2009, 05:07:46 PM
Another note about Bush:  he led the team in receptions as a rookie with 52 and was second in 07 and 08 with 73 and 88, respectively. 

That has to be as good or better than any RB in the NFL during that period, particularly for a RB who is splitting time. 
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: 2ND COMING on May 02, 2009, 05:17:50 PM
westbrook has more catches in that time period. Jones-drew is up there too

bush also led the team in td's on special teams last year. Something a #1 rb doesnt do, ever.
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: Dos Equis on May 03, 2009, 12:08:51 PM
westbrook has more catches in that time period. Jones-drew is up there too

bush also led the team in td's on special teams last year. Something a #1 rb doesnt do, ever.

You're right about Westbrook.  Has a few more catches than Bush during that period.  Jones-Drew isn't really close. 

RBs almost never return punts.  That's part of what makes Bush special. 
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: jerseyhurricane on May 03, 2009, 03:21:19 PM
Last year Payton was studying the Eagles offense to get Bush to be more like Westbrook. Didn't happen. Bush is a bust (so far). He has the numbers of a 2nd or 3rd rounder at best. Its still early though. At least he has Kim Kardashion.
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: 2ND COMING on May 03, 2009, 03:43:26 PM
bush doesnt have the instincts yet to be on wb's level, nor will he ever imo. Not to mention bush was ultra fumble prone.

but to be fair the eagles have had a top 5 offensive line for the past few years, that has nothing to do with bush's inablility to hold on to the rock though.
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: jerseyhurricane on May 03, 2009, 06:40:32 PM
Andre Wadsworth was another bust... wasn't he picked right after Ryan Leaf? Everybody calls Leaf the biggest bust ever... but they forget Wadsworth was drafted right after him.
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: body88 on May 03, 2009, 10:04:25 PM
You're right about Westbrook.  Has a few more catches than Bush during that period.  Jones-Drew isn't really close. 

RBs almost never return punts.  That's part of what makes Bush special. 


Maroney did it his rookie year.... he the league in return yards that year.  Most backs don't return kicks because they produce running the ball (unlike Bush) and you don't want to risk injury on a punt or kick return.   Bush is not special.  He's good, but I've shown you why he is vastly overrated and not worth the money that he is being paid.
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: njflex on May 04, 2009, 08:54:22 AM
ANDRE WARE ANOTHER ONE,was touted from unv houston set passing records,nfl nada....
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: jerseyhurricane on May 04, 2009, 09:41:16 AM
bush doesnt have the instincts yet to be on wb's level, nor will he ever imo. Not to mention bush was ultra fumble prone.

but to be fair the eagles have had a top 5 offensive line for the past few years, that has nothing to do with bush's inablility to hold on to the rock though.

The Saints have a pretty decent offensive line, though.
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: 2ND COMING on May 04, 2009, 10:07:37 AM
The Saints have a pretty decent offensive line, though.

their quite average IMO
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: Dos Equis on May 04, 2009, 11:23:31 AM

Maroney did it his rookie year.... he the league in return yards that year.  Most backs don't return kicks because they produce running the ball (unlike Bush) and you don't want to risk injury on a punt or kick return.   Bush is not special.  He's good, but I've shown you why he is vastly overrated and not worth the money that he is being paid.

Maroney returned punts?  I don't see any punt return stats:  http://www.nfl.com/players/laurencemaroney/careerstats?id=MAR273311

Highly unusual for a RB to return punts. 
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: body88 on May 04, 2009, 06:26:10 PM
Maroney returned punts?  I don't see any punt return stats:  http://www.nfl.com/players/laurencemaroney/careerstats?id=MAR273311

Highly unusual for a RB to return punts. 


Excuse me...kicks - not punts!  Your right about that.  We are beating a dead horse here anyway.  You showed me a few things about Bush that back me off the total bust, stance.  However, I do think he is somewhat of a bust ( if you look at the ROI for the Saints).
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: jerseyhurricane on May 04, 2009, 06:34:28 PM
their quite average IMO

True but I don't see Bush doing good with a great offensive line anyway...he's not a carry the load runningback. Never was never will be.
Title: Re: Tony Mandarich
Post by: Dos Equis on May 04, 2009, 11:04:57 PM

Excuse me...kicks - not punts!  Your right about that.  We are beating a dead horse here anyway.  You showed me a few things about Bush that back me off the total bust, stance.  However, I do think he is somewhat of a bust ( if you look at the ROI for the Saints).

I understand your point and I think you can certainly make the argument that he hasn't produced like someone taken that high in the draft should.  I'll give him, Leinart, Young, Mario Williams, etc. a little more time before calling anyone of them a bust, underachievers, etc.