Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: Mr Nobody on April 26, 2009, 04:01:37 PM
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Just trying to understand the cause? ???
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GH
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K, I assume GH stimulates your internal organs to grow and protrude?
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insulin
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Lee Labarada was on PBW a couple years back and he said it was due to GH and insulin , a lot of people say it's the amount of food people eat and I think that might be part of the problem seeing eating expands your stomach
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Hey CAMEL, what does Insulin do that induces the large mid section effect?
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GH
no
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Pregnancy.
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gh and insulin causes an increase of visceral fat, the fat that surrounds your organs, especially with the omentum
you never saw protruding stomachs on pros in the bodybuilding mags until 1993 or so. bodybuilders started using gh in the late 1980s, and added insulin to the mix in the early 1990s.
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no
Did you say something, Rubble?
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Did you say something, Rubble?
you have an incomplete answer you skinny bottom twink so i gave you one in return
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you have an incomplete answer you skinny bottom twink so i gave you one in return
Again, I did not permit you to respond to me you freckle face C@NT!
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Just trying to understand the cause? ???
massive prolonged gh abuse plus slin plus humongous carbs
honestly
share your pain...
gh15 putit the est
we have seen the best compromise between frmes and size in the 70's and 80's
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Again, I did not permit you to respond to me you freckle face C@NT!
you need some timeout
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you need some timeout
You need to shut you mouth Rubble b4 I tear your biceps off again, IDIOT!
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gh and insulin causes an increase of visceral fat, the fat that surrounds your organs, especially with the omentum
you never saw protruding stomachs on pros in the bodybuilding mags until 1993 or so. bodybuilders started using gh in the late 1980s, and added insulin to the mix in the early 1990s.
Yeah the first pro I recall seeing one was Momo in 1992 by 1993 Yates had one , Lou's was huge and so it began
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You need to shut you mouth Rubble b4 I tear your biceps off again, IDIOT!
lol good call "elite lifter", another "internet tough guy"
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lol good call "elite lifter", another "internet tough guy"
Stay out of my way freckle face! >:(
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Stay out of my way freckle face! >:(
you have bored me now, we'll continue this at another time.
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You need to shut you mouth Rubble b4 I tear your biceps off again, IDIOT!
A regular badass mamma jamma right here. ::)
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So how can Insulin and GH increase fat but these guys are still cut with a huge stomach?
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Just trying to understand the cause? ???
GH GH GH GH GH GH GH GH GH GH
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It is a combination!
It is more than the just gh and insulin. To suggest that this is the issue, would be too simplistic!
Bodybuilder's of today are walking pharmacies; that goes without saying.
However, they also consume inhumane levels of fats, proteins and carbs. Coupled with that, they are very lazy when it comes to cardio etc.
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It is a combination!
It is more than the just gh and insulin. To suggest that this is the issue, would be too simplistic!
Bodybuilder's of today are walking pharmacies; that goes without saying.
However, they also consume inhumane levels of fats, proteins and carbs. Coupled with that, they are very lazy when it comes to cardio etc.
verywell put
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So how can Insulin and GH increase fat but these guys are still cut with a huge stomach?
visceral fat is different than subcutaneous fat
you can get rid of all the fat between the skin and the muscles, but still have lots of fat between your internal organs.
the omentum is a membrane that surrounds the stomach and other organs. (its the fat netting that they use on cooking shows to wrap very lean pieces of meat.) the omentum is also where all the fat is stored when you have a beer belly.
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very well put
but still wrong. there is no evidence that any of the other drugs that bodybuilders use cause an increase in visceral fat. and bodybuilders have been eating large amounts of food since the beginning of bodybuilding. these stomachs did not appear until the mid 1990s.
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but still wrong. there is no evidence that any of the other drugs that bodybuilders use cause an increase in visceral fat. and bodybuilders have been eating large amounts of food since the beginning of bodybuilding. these stomachs did not appear until the mid 1990s.
slin
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Zane said it best
when a man, sometime after the age of 40
continues to try to get bigger and bigger still, and he is well past his years of measuring himself by the standard measuring sticks we use in society to guage manhood
there are deep psychosomatic problems.
Including the bulbous guitages
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The 'excessive' use of all substances has contributed to the large abdomens we see today.
It is both ignorant and naive to suggest that gh alone has contributed to this unsightly phenomena!
The misuse and over abuse of food and the pharmacy is the culprit here.
Again, gh is not the evil. It is the misinformed, delusional f@cktard Bodybuilder that is too blame....They just don't understand the concept of balance and control when it comes to diet and drug use!
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The 'excessive' use of all substances has contributed to the large abdomens we see today.
It is both ignorant and naive to suggest that gh alone has contributed to this unsightly phenomena!
The misuse and over abuse of food and the pharmacy is the culprit here.
Again, gh is not the evil. It is the misinformed, delusional f@cktard Bodybuilder that is too blame....They just don't understand the concept of balance and control when it comes to diet and drug use!
u suggestin that more is not better ????????????
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You need to shut you mouth Rubble b4 I tear your biceps off again, IDIOT!
You're a scary bastard shirt_lifter,seriously man,I bet you are sooo tough
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You're a scary bastard shirt_lifter,seriously man,I bet you are sooo tough
:D
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It is both ignorant and naive to suggest that gh alone has contributed to this unsightly phenomena!
I get it. you don't bother to read what other people have written before you jump in. its already been explained that its the combination of gh and insulin. no 'other' drugs. not the excessive' use of all substances. not massive amounts of food.
for a while, people on HIV meds were developing a similar gut, with an increase of visceral fat. Turns out the anti-HIV drugs can cause insulin sensitivity. and, because of the way ADAP laws were written, doctors were giving people with HIV growth hormone to counter wasting. ADAP (free HIV drugs for low income people without insurance) wouldn't allow cheap steroids to be prescribe for wasting because it was considered an off-label use, while they would pay 10-20 times more for GH. Those laws have changed. Now steroids is the preferred treatment for wasting, and the gh gut is rarely seen. But insulin sensitivity is still a problem for many people taking the anti-HIV drugs.
GH alone, visceral fat not a problem. GH plus insulin, or GH plus drugs that make you sensitive to insulin, large increases in visceral fat causes the protruding stomach.
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when you are on your period you hold water
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OK f@cktards, here is the simple version: abuse of any substance, be it food, water, drugs etc is going to cause expansion/bloating of the abdominal wall.
To blame it all on gh and insulin is again highlighting the pure ingnorance that exists around here.
So retards, get off your high-horses and stop blaming gh and insulin. They are only part of a very misunderstood equation!
Again, abuse will lead to bloating...end of f@cking story!
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OK f@cktards, here is the simple version: abuse of any substance, be it food, water, drugs etc is going to cause expansion/bloating of the abdominal wall.
there is no scientific evidence to support your claim.
1) when a top level amateur or pro bodybuilder steps on stage, he's be dieting for weeks and dehydrating himself for days. yet he still has the protruding stomach
2) amateur and pro bodybuilders were abusing food, water, and steroids all throughout the 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s, but the protruding stomach didn't show up until the mid 1990s, then suddenly every top bodybuilder had it. that correlates well with the introduction of insulin to gh.
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The pregnant bellies began appearing when these insecure roided freaks started cycling all year round...never taking a break from the juice....and using larger and larger amounts.
The pregnant bellies is a result of relentless and excessive substance abuse....ALL substances!
And surprise,surprise their stomachs grew as did the rest of their bodies....to grotesque and inhumane proportions!
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no
GH
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GH
you stupid bastard ;D
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OK f@cktards, here is the simple version: abuse of any substance, be it food, water, drugs etc is going to cause expansion/bloating of the abdominal wall.
To blame it all on gh and insulin is again highlighting the pure ingnorance that exists around here.
So retards, get off your high-horses and stop blaming gh and insulin. They are only part of a very misunderstood equation!
Again, abuse will lead to bloating...end of f@cking story!
Once again Hank is spot on
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you stupid bastard ;D
You are an idiot.
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You are an idiot.
You fat bastard
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You fat bastard
STFU CLOWN!
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STFU CLOWN!
You are fat and have high blood pressure
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STFU CLOWN!
king of the clever posts, what a twink
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The pregnant bellies began appearing when these insecure roided freaks started cycling all year round...never taking a break from the juice....and using larger and larger amounts.
The pregnant bellies is a result of relentless and excessive substance abuse....ALL substances!
And surprise,surprise their stomachs grew as did the rest of their bodies....to grotesque and inhumane proportions!
why didn't a guy like Pete Grymkowski have the big belly when he was using 10 times the amount AT LEAST that the guys today were? the man admitted to taking BOTTLES of shit per day.
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when a top level amateur or pro bodybuilder steps on stage, he's be dieting for weeks and dehydrating himself for days. yet he still has the protruding stomach
Yes, but what you are failing to take into account is that dieting with large amounts of GH, T3, Clen, etc, will allow you to eat a much larger amount of calories while still losing weight. Slin is the primary culprit behind the guts, but large doeses of GH, and too much food/+edema contributes to this problem.
M!
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You fat bastard
The dudes a shit talker cant post pics on himself..oh man. If this guy looks good as MemberX ::), I better get out of dodge huh. lol
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Wow looks like I started quite a debate here.... 8)
Still not clear on the answer, my best guess the guys take so much stuff that their internal organs grow as well very dangerous.
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I get it. you don't bother to read what other people have written before you jump in. its already been explained that its the combination of gh and insulin. no 'other' drugs. not the excessive' use of all substances. not massive amounts of food.
for a while, people on HIV meds were developing a similar gut, with an increase of visceral fat. Turns out the anti-HIV drugs can cause insulin sensitivity. and, because of the way ADAP laws were written, doctors were giving people with HIV growth hormone to counter wasting. ADAP (free HIV drugs for low income people without insurance) wouldn't allow cheap steroids to be prescribe for wasting because it was considered an off-label use, while they would pay 10-20 times more for GH. Those laws have changed. Now steroids is the preferred treatment for wasting, and the gh gut is rarely seen. But insulin sensitivity is still a problem for many people taking the anti-HIV drugs.
GH alone, visceral fat not a problem. GH plus insulin, or GH plus drugs that make you sensitive to insulin, large increases in visceral fat causes the protruding stomach.
It hasn't been proven that pro bodybuilders carry a lot of visceral fat at contest time. That's your theory.
And you're wrong about GH increasing visceral fat in HIV+ people. It does the opposite. Do a google search for "HIV visceral fat growth hormone". I'm not sure if you mean 'insensitivity' when you say 'sensitivity', I suspect you switched the terms?
You're also wrong about the peptides being the sole culprit (whatever the mechanism). I'm personally positive that steroids alone can cause the belly to protrude more and there are many juicers who would agree. I'm not sure as to the mechanism but I've seen it and experienced it.
I'm not convinced bodybuilders carry a lot of visceral fat at contest time. It's possible but I tend to doubt it.
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It hasn't been proven that pro bodybuilders carry a lot of visceral fat at contest time. That's your theory.
And you're wrong about GH increasing visceral fat in HIV+ people. It does the opposite.
You're also wrong about the peptides being the sole culprit (whatever the mechanism). I'm personally positive that steroids alone can cause the belly to protrude more and there are many juicers who would agree. I'm not sure as to the mechanism but I've seen it and experienced it.
I'm not convinced bodybuilders carry a lot of visceral fat at contest time. It's possible but I tend to doubt it.
What would we do without this man!
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Again f@cktards, the jury is out on whether or not gh and insulin are the culprits for the huge pregnant bellies we see today.
And yes, these same f@cktards just love to jump on google on quote irrelevant and unproven bullsh#t relating to the supposed dangers of gh and insulin.
Understand this you stupid and ignorant retards; when you abuse 'any' substance, be it food, water or drugs, the stomach as well as the rest of the body will show signs of protrusion!
End of f@cking story....Now go back to google you deadsh@ts and find some relevance to your unproven theories relating to these unplanned pregnancies!
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I think Hank Wood is onto something here... people just love to point the finger at gh and slin
Dorian said in a recent interview that he also believes it could also relate to abuse of oral steroids too etc etc its all about abuse here
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It hasn't been proven that pro bodybuilders carry a lot of visceral fat at contest time. That's your theory.
And you're wrong about GH increasing visceral fat in HIV+ people. It does the opposite. Do a google search for "HIV visceral fat growth hormone". I'm not sure if you mean 'insensitivity' when you say 'sensitivity', I suspect you switched the terms?
You're also wrong about the peptides being the sole culprit (whatever the mechanism). I'm personally positive that steroids alone can cause the belly to protrude more and there are many juicers who would agree. I'm not sure as to the mechanism but I've seen it and experienced it.
I'm not convinced bodybuilders carry a lot of visceral fat at contest time. It's possible but I tend to doubt it.
Here's an example after a quick google
J Acquir Immune Defic Syndr. 2002 Aug 1;30(4):379-91.Click here to read Links
Effect of recombinant human growth hormone in the treatment of visceral fat accumulation in HIV infection.
Engelson ES, Glesby MJ, Mendez D, Albu JB, Wang J, Heymsfield SB, Kotler DP.
Gastrointestinal Division, Obesity Research Center, New York 10025, USA. eengelson@slrhx.org
HIV-associated lipodystrophy often includes excess accumulation of visceral fat. Recombinant human growth hormone (rhGH) is a potential treatment for the excess visceral fat. Prospective, open-label trials of 24 weeks of rhGH 6 mg/d and 24 weeks of 4 mg every other day were conducted with an intervening washout period of 12 weeks. Thirty HIV-positive participants (26 men and 4 women) with visceral adiposity were enrolled. The main outcome measure was change in visceral adipose tissue (VAT) on whole-body magnetic resonance imaging scan. Changes in whole-body subcutaneous adipose tissue and skeletal muscle, glucose metabolism, serum lipids, and quality of life were also assessed. Despite stable body weight, VAT decreased in evaluable subjects an average of 42% with rhGH 6 mg/d (n = 24; p <.001) and 15% with 4 mg every other day (n = 10; p <.01) after 12 weeks, with trends toward further decreases after an additional 12 weeks at each dose. Subcutaneous adipose tissue also decreased, but proportionately less and not significantly on the lower dose. Skeletal muscle increased. Body composition rebounded to or near baseline after the washout period. Effects on lipids were inconsistent. Total cholesterol levels fell on the higher dose only, whereas high-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels increased on the lower dose only, and there was no effect on triglyceride levels. Joint pain was the most common adverse event, and was reflected in subjective quality of life measurements as an increase in bodily pain. Insulin sensitivity fell, and 4 participants developed diabetes. Other adverse events included cancer of unknown relationship to treatment in 3 participants. Levels of distress decreased after 24 weeks on the higher dose. In conclusion, rhGH effectively reduces the excess visceral adipose tissue often associated with HIV fat redistribution/lipodystrophy. However, frequent adverse effects warrant controlled studies and careful patient monitoring, especially regarding glucose tolerance.
Visceral fat decreased despite reductions in insulin sensitivity. GH usually causes an increase in insulin levels due to the insulin resistance. So you have guys with higher insulin levels, poorer sensitivity, yet visceral fat decreased.
So can we say for a fact that the pros are holding large amounts of VAT when they are severely dieted down?
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These 'google experts' love to jump on the gh and slin bandwagon...They don't have a clue!
Yes indeed, the '90's ushered in the pregnant belly look. This look came at a time when the Pro's began abusing just about every chemical under the sun! They began cycling year in and year out, never taking a break!
The greater the drug abuser the greater the belly.
Stop blaming gh for all the woes of this sport. Open your closed little minds you retarded little deadsh@ts.
Take away the overt abuse of 'all' these substances and watch the bellies deflate!
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And you're wrong about GH increasing visceral fat in HIV+ people. It does the opposite. Do a google search for "HIV visceral fat growth hormone". I'm not sure if you mean 'insensitivity' when you say 'sensitivity', I suspect you switched the terms?
Sure it's anecdotal, but many years ago people on HAART were having lots of problem with the protruding stomachs. MRIs and ultrasound shows they had significant increases in visceral fat. GH was being prescribed because it was covered by ADAP and anabolic steroids weren't. Now days very few people are being given GH, AS is the drug of choice to counter wasting. And the protruding stomachs are much rarer.
I'm personally positive that steroids alone can cause the belly to protrude more and there are many juicers who would agree.
then why don't you see it in the vintage mags? they were certainly using massive amounts of AS in the 1970s and 80s. Narrow waists were the norm in all top amateur and pro bodybuilders until the mid 1990s.
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FFS, these people who spend their time on Google trying to rationalise the abortion that is gh and insulin.
You f@cktards just don't get it!
Once again, you abuse anything, that is water, steroids, food etc you will get bloating. Reduce these substances and the guts will disappear.
STOP trying to blame gh for the pregnant bellies!
BLAME the overcompensating drug addicts who are abusing everything uder the sun!
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(http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=277512.0;attach=316953;image)
better forearms than Kamali
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I always remember that cocky drug abusing murderer Titus saying that the pregnant-bellies were a result of over eating! Yes, 'overeating' you F@cktards!
Titus went on to say that when he stopped with over consumption of food his huge belly went back to normal!
So there you have it retards.
Now it is time for you pieces of shit to jump back on Google and find some more unsubstanciated evidence on the detrimental effects of gh an slin!
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visceral fat is different than subcutaneous fat
you can get rid of all the fat between the skin and the muscles, but still have lots of fat between your internal organs.
the omentum is a membrane that surrounds the stomach and other organs. (its the fat netting that they use on cooking shows to wrap very lean pieces of meat.) the omentum is also where all the fat is stored when you have a beer belly.
its also very very dangerous to your health
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If pros go off the drugs can they lose the gut and start to look good again?
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If pros go off the drugs can they lose the gut and start to look good again?
Depends on how much visceral fat they lose but GH also causes smooth muscle to grow so it's hard to tell.
Those guts are from GH and Insulin. Anyone who says different is misinformed or doesn't understand physiology and nutrition.
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Depends on how much visceral fat they lose but GH also causes smooth muscle to grow so it's hard to tell.
Those guts are from GH and Insulin. Anyone who says different is misinformed or doesn't understand physiology and nutrition.
So you know for a fact that the pros are holding a lot of VAT at contest time?
I'm not saying those drugs don't cause distension, just questioning the mechanism.
To my knowledge bodybuilders haven't had body scans to determine the mechanism. These threads wouldn't be coming up every few days if the answer was self evident if you only know a little physiology.
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So you know for a fact that the pros are holding a lot of VAT at contest time?
I'm not saying those drugs don't cause distension, just questioning the mechanism.
To my knowledge bodybuilders haven't had body scans to determine the mechanism. These threads wouldn't be coming up every few days if the answer was self evident if you only know a little physiology.
These threads keep coming up because people don't like the answer. :)
Not talking opinion here, simply what the drugs do. The growth isn't limited to 'work-out' muscles. Even if it were, GI muscles are almost always moving. GH also causes growth in small bones. Comparing them to regular fatasses doesn't make sense because type II diabetics have decreased insulin sensitivity. There are 4 or 5 glucose receptors in humans, why wouldn't there be more than one for insulin?
Large amounts of food obviously cause the GI tract to work harder but you don't see huge guts in naturals.
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These threads keep coming up because people don't like the answer. :)
Not talking opinion here, simply what the drugs do. The growth isn't limited to 'work-out' muscles. Even if it were, GI muscles are almost always moving. GH also causes growth in small bones. Comparing them to regular fatasses doesn't make sense because type II diabetics have decreased insulin sensitivity. There are 4 or 5 glucose receptors in humans, why wouldn't there be more than one for insulin?
Large amounts of food obviously cause the GI tract to work harder but you don't see huge guts in naturals.
Growth in small bones? I'm not sure what you're talking about here and how it relates to this topic. Same with the 4 or 5 glucose receptors thing.
Regarding the growth of intestines etc it hasn't been quantified - if it occurs and to what degree. If you look at the HIV hGH studies they posed the possibility of organ growth accounting for some of the lbm gain. But it hasn't been looked at more closely to my knowledge. I think most of the lbm gain in those studies is simply water retention. How much the organs grow is unknown. Disgusted believes in the VAT theory and doesn't believe the organs grow since it would cause the belly to look unsymmetrical in his opinion.
Regarding VAT, hGH seems to cause reduction of it despite causing insulin resistance and consequent hyperinsulinemia. timfogarty says the guts came down in HIV patients when they dropped the growth so in those cases the distention must logically be due to something other than VAT.
And yes, I think bodybuilders on lots of growth are often severely insulin resistant, to the point of type II diabetes. Why do you think many of them say they must use extra insulin when on lots of GH (due to elevated BG)?
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there is no scientific evidence to support your claim.
1) when a top level amateur or pro bodybuilder steps on stage, he's be dieting for weeks and dehydrating himself for days. yet he still has the protruding stomach
2) amateur and pro bodybuilders were abusing food, water, and steroids all throughout the 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s, but the protruding stomach didn't show up until the mid 1990s, then suddenly every top bodybuilder had it. that correlates well with the introduction of insulin to gh.
your argument seems to make sense
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Growth in small bones? I'm not sure what you're talking about here and how it relates to this topic. Same with the 4 or 5 glucose receptors thing.
Regarding the growth of intestines etc it hasn't been quantified - if it occurs and to what degree. If you look at the HIV hGH studies they posed the possibility of organ growth accounting for some of the lbm gain. But it hasn't been looked at more closely to my knowledge. I think most of the lbm gain in those studies is simply water retention. How much the organs grow is unknown. Disgusted believes in the VAT theory and doesn't believe the organs grow since it would cause the belly to look unsymmetrical in his opinion.
Regarding VAT, hGH seems to cause reduction of it despite causing insulin resistance and consequent hyperinsulinemia. timfogarty says the guts came down in HIV patients when they dropped the growth so in those cases the distention must logically be due to something other than VAT.
And yes, I think bodybuilders on lots of growth are often severely insulin resistant, to the point of type II diabetes. Why do you think many of them say they must use extra insulin when on lots of GH (due to elevated BG)?
I think a part of the problem is language. People want to believe the guts are a side.
Add up what both drugs do, especially in the liver, and you'll see why the guts happen.
Try looking at it another way.... Pros don't get points marked off for the big bellies. That one simple fact means the bellies can't be modified by diet, fluid restriction, exercise or diuretics.
Big guts are just a part of using those drugs. What's the big deal?
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I think a part of the problem is language. People want to believe the guts are a side.
I must have a language problem since I don't get what you're trying to say... ??? :D
Add up what both drugs do, especially in the liver, and you'll see why the guts happen.
I gotta ask what you mean here exactly? What happens in the liver and how does this cause gut growth?
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I must have a language problem since I don't get what you're trying to say... ??? :D
I gotta ask what you mean here exactly? What happens in the liver and how does this cause gut growth?
The liver is one of GH's main targets and that's where IGF is produced. Side-Effects of Insulin-like Growth Factor include swelling of internal organs and organomegaly.
Whatever the reason is doesn't matter because people are still going to use. I just don't get why people find the answer so annoying. No one complains about other supplements causing acne, limp dick and other issues.
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Deca=impotance for some
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Whatever the reason is doesn't matter because people are still going to use. I just don't get why people find the answer so annoying. No one complains about other supplements causing acne, limp dick and other issues.
'people' aren't finding the answer so annoying. gimmicks argue just to argue. gimmick supports support just to argue.
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Yes, Getbiggers are sick and tired of these so-called experts making wild ascertions about gh and slin.
Yes, these same experts who have no scientific background and just use google to try an establish and argument!
Again to all you f@cktards; the pregnant bellies are a result of the 'over consumption' of all substances. There is no proof that gh and slin alone is responsible!
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Yes, these same experts who have no scientific background and just use google to try an establish and argument!
I have a Masters of Science in geophysics. Worked ten years at JPL NASA, working on two space shuttle missions and one deep space mission. Am listed as co-author on a couple of papers in peer reviewed journals. Oh and I was married to an M.D. for the four years of his residency, helped him study for his psych boards. (then he dumped me)
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Oh and I was married to an M.D. for the four years of his residency, helped him study for his psych boards. (then he dumped me)
Really? When did California allow gay marriage?
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Yes, Getbiggers are sick and tired of these so-called experts making wild ascertions about gh and slin.
Yes, these same experts who have no scientific background and just use google to try an establish and argument!
Again to all you f@cktards; the pregnant bellies are a result of the 'over consumption' of all substances. There is no proof that gh and slin alone is responsible!
I've taught an anatomy and physiology course.
A basic understanding of how GH, IGF and Insulin's mechanisms of action are all you need. There's no scientific benefit to studying off-label abuse of that combination and it would also be harming humans.
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A basic understanding of how GH, IGF and Insulin's mechanisms of action are all you need.
It is not. Just because the intestines for example have a lot of igf-1 receptors doesn't automatically mean your intestines are going to grow on hGH or pure igf-1 for that matter. Take a guy who gets on a low dose of hGH and notices that his belly is distended a few weeks in - should he automatically assume his intestines have grown? No. It can be a temporary swelling of some tissues or whatever. Many have noticed that the belly comes down after coming off, which shouldn't happen if the intestines actually grew (to my understanding).
And you and Tim say hGH increases VAT when the available evidence points to the opposite.
Insulin and hGH are a cause of distended bellies but the mechanism(s) aren't fully elucidated IMO.
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I have a Masters of Science in geophysics. Worked ten years at JPL NASA, working on two space shuttle missions and one deep space mission. Am listed as co-author on a couple of papers in peer reviewed journals. Oh and I was married to an M.D. for the four years of his residency, helped him study for his psych boards. (then he dumped me)
WHAT DO YOU KNOW ABOUT UFO'S ??
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from vans post its clear it isn't VAT that causes the guts, however i disagree about steroids causing the guts - abuse or not.
as has been pointed out - the guts didn't start appearing untill mid to late 90's - what drugs first started being used then? and you'll have your answer.
in saying that - milos uses insulin and doesn't have a gut so, however he doesn't abuse it ( if his posts here are to be believed).
we'll probably never know for sure.
i know disgusted and kamali believe it was the insulin that caused his gut, but he has been off it for some time and still has it.
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In the olden days, bodybuilders ate a huge meal after the show.
These days, bodybuilders eat their huge meal right before the show, giving themselves that "stuffed" appearance.
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the guys using humalog do not have this problem vs those using hum-r
hum-r does not require a script and humalog does, as many turned to hum-r the guts kept growing and growing
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It is not. Just because the intestines for example have a lot of igf-1 receptors doesn't automatically mean your intestines are going to grow on hGH or pure igf-1 for that matter. Take a guy who gets on a low dose of hGH and notices that his belly is distended a few weeks in - should he automatically assume his intestines have grown? No. It can be a temporary swelling of some tissues or whatever. Many have noticed that the belly comes down after coming off, which shouldn't happen if the intestines actually grew (to my understanding).
And you and Tim say hGH increases VAT when the available evidence points to the opposite.
Insulin and hGH are a cause of distended bellies but the mechanism(s) aren't fully elucidated IMO.
Some of the distention is likely from fluid because both GH and IGF can affect sodium channels via two mechanisms. Some comes from growth and the rest has to be visceral fat. You're forgetting that people taking GH have increased insulin sensitivity, which is totally opposite of the typical fatass.
The drugs do what they do but some of the normal endocrine rules (feedback + or -, signaling) are being messed with.
I can remember reading mags as a teen and some pros would do test until they pissed black and no one had huge guts. I'm assuming the pros were eating food back then.
This is simply a case where people don't like the answer because the big belly is probably permanent. Most other drug effects will go away when people stop using drugs but thinking that that fat gut will be there forever is more than people want to deal with. Diet can affect visceral fat but isn't going to make organs get smaller or shrink smooth muscles.
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I'll say insulin.
Growing organs from GH would not be so significant to give such a gut imo.
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OK why does Tony Freeman not have a huge stomach? I guess no Insulin and GH? Still confused.
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see this
http://www.musculardevelopment.com/content/view/1545/51/
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see this
http://www.musculardevelopment.com/content/view/1545/51/
Someone's gonna complain about the article and remind us how Palumbo wrote 'it's all because of food' two years ago. :)
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from vans post its clear it isn't VAT that causes the guts, however i disagree about steroids causing the guts - abuse or not.
I didn't say steroids are the cause. Before GH became widely used there was the term "roid belly". It does contribute and specific products, like some orals, cause distention in some users. If it's true Coleman does 10 Anadrols leading up to the Olympia (like someone here said) then it's likely contributing the the distention we saw in him IMO. Kamali said Wolf looked like he was using tons of Anadrol while being "trained" by Chad.
Hopefully no one reading my posts thinks I'm saying GH and insulin don't cause distention. That's not it, I'm saying we don't know how much organ growth is contributing to the problem.
You're forgetting that people taking GH have increased insulin sensitivity, which is totally opposite of the typical fatass.
You are getting your terms and facts mixed up. GH does NOT cause increased insulin sensitivity. It does the opposite and adding insulin only makes it worse. High dose GH causes such poor insulin sensitivity that some must add extra insulin. So yes, a pro can have poor sensitivity just like a typical fatass. Poor sensitivity can actually help you reduce subq fat since the fat is less sensitive to insulin. The fat burning effect is related to the fact that GH causes insulin resistance. (this is a longer topic that I'm not getting into now).
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Pro bodybuilding is in an very interesting state right now. The pros are as big as they have ever been, but the more muscle someone puts on their torso and limbs leads to an inevitable gain around the waist as well. There is no pro on the IFBB stage today who can boast of a flat stomach when relaxed; THEY ALL HAVE SOME SORT OF DISTENSION, JUST TO VARYING DEGREES.
Question is: why does it still bother some of you so much? This is reality...the sport isn't going back to 70s and 80s when guys like Frank Zane were winning contests. GET OVER IT!
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see this
http://www.musculardevelopment.com/content/view/1545/51/
He makes the assumption that pros have lots of VAT at contest time. The evidence says VAT is reduced with GH despite the insulin resistance (and the resulting increased insulin). The lipolytic effects of GH override the lipogenic effects of the increased insulin when it comes subq fat - that is obvious by looking at bodybuilders. I think the same is true of VAT, especially at contest time. An offseason Trey Brewer having increased VAT I can see, but he's fat all over.
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Before GH became widely used there was the term "roid belly".
Evidence please. GH became widely used in the late 1980s. the term roid belly or roid gut is more recent
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Evidence please. GH became widely used in the late 1980s. the term roid belly or roid gut is more recent
All I remember is seeing it in mags like MMI in the late 80s. I don't think it was widely used by then, it was prohibitively expensive to run in any meaningful dosage by most.
Take a poll of a large pool of bodybuilders who don't use insulin or GH and you'll see quite a few say steroids cause some distention.
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All I remember is seeing it in mags like MMI in the late 80s. I don't think it was widely used by then, it was prohibitively expensive to run in any meaningful dosage by most.
rhGH became available in the US in 1985, replacing all cadaver derived gh. within a few years the price dropped quickly and it flooded the black market.
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rhGH became available in the US in 1985, replacing all cadaver derived gh. within a few years the price dropped quickly and it flooded the black market.
So do you have a price quote for say 4iu's straight out of the pharmacy around that time (I assume this was the 192AA Protropin)? I mean it's still extremely expensive from legitimate channels. Guys who aren't rich get it from China, buy it from HIV patients or dwarfs (lol) or sometimes stolen (as is the case with Norditropin out of Denmark over here in my part of the world). China GH wasn't around then and it wasn't approved for HIV.
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F@cktards without a clue. Yes, you continue to use the google machine to try and find an explanation for the roid belly....and still no evidence!
I, myself just jumped on google, and guess what, there is article after article relatingto gh and insulin; discussing these substances remarkable 'fat reducing'/belly reducing powers!
Again, for you f@cktards who don't get it; stop eating/consuming obscene volumes of food, water and drugs and watch the bellies disappear.....and stop blaming gh and slin for the pregnant look...you bunch of ignorant and close minded google-obsessed retards!
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you stupid bastard ;D
GH GEE-HOOE
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only when i started heavy doses of slin the gut came out ,,that shoudl tell you something friends,,
on gh never ,,actually waist went down on gh,,only when added insulin the gut expanded
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Again, today's Pro's are massive overcompensators. They have become seduced by the lies that our materialistic and shallow society purports; And that is, more is better.
Well, in the case of these drug addict Pros, more=bigger bellies.
That's right f@cktards, it is more than gh and slin that brings on the pregnancies....It is the over consumption of 'all things' that is the cause of this repulsive bloated phenomena!
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in theory when you look at each individual compound most would think gh is the culprit due to its ability to cause growth in everything.
i have often wondered if the reason for the guts was continued use of gh year round. As i know many top pro's are using high dosages of gh ( and slin) while taking a break from gear to keep their mass, then they add the gear back when preping for a show and grow into it. i originally thought that the constant gh year round caused the guts. however the biggest abusers of gh in the world are probably proffesional athletes - specifically from the nfl, nba, mlb and olympians, and they have no guts ( bodybuilders sized guts that is).
the only new compounds from 95 onwards were insulin, then igf-1, and later pgf etc. thats when they started showing up.
gh does have ugly sides for definate though i.e. bone growth - as you can see from cutlers jaw, cormiers skull, ronnies skull, dexters skull, etc
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Just trying to understand the cause? ???
no not all of them.. here are 2 examples with good midsection size for their over all size!!
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Yes, Nasser El Synthol helped to usher in the pregnant belly.
His use of gh and slin was always blamed for his huge bloated belly.
However, if any of you f@cktards want to do one your 'google searches' you will find that gh and slin actually promote weight loss and reduces abdominal adipose tissue.
Yes retards, Nasser had an horrendous pregnant belly. It was caused by his obsessive eating habits and not his drug addictions to roids, gh, slin etc!
PS...This new book of Nasser's...still no mention of his treatment of his spouse...utterly disgusting and violent human being...Yes, violence against women is reprehensible!
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Yes, Nasser El Synthol helped to usher in the pregnant belly.
His use of gh and slin was always blamed for his huge bloated belly.
However, if any of you f@cktards want to do one your 'google searches' you will find that gh and slin actually promote weight loss and reduces abdominal adipose tissue.
Yes retards, Nasser had an horrendous pregnant belly. It was caused by his obsessive eating habits and not his drug addictions to roids, gh, slin etc!
PS...This new book of Nasser's...still no mention of his treatment of his spouse...utterly disgusting and violent human being...Yes, violence against women is reprehensible!
;D
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Yes, Nasser El Synthol helped to usher in the pregnant belly.
His use of gh and slin was always blamed for his huge bloated belly.
However, if any of you f@cktards want to do one your 'google searches' you will find that gh and slin actually promote weight loss and reduces abdominal adipose tissue.
Yes retards, Nasser had an horrendous pregnant belly. It was caused by his obsessive eating habits and not his drug addictions to roids, gh, slin etc!
PS...This new book of Nasser's...still no mention of his treatment of his spouse...utterly disgusting and violent human being...Yes, violence against women is reprehensible!
yes as you can clearly see for sheriefs post nasser has a huge gut ::)
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yes as you can clearly see for sheriefs post nasser has a huge gut ::)
(http://i.b5z.net/i/u/230085/i/Nasser_El_Sonbaty_IFBB_bodybuilder_Pro_photo_ezr.jpg)
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(http://i.b5z.net/i/u/230085/i/Nasser_El_Sonbaty_IFBB_bodybuilder_Pro_photo_ezr.jpg)
looks fine to me.
if you want to see a gut look for jp faux or kovacs or palumbo or the keg
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gh does have ugly sides for definate though i.e. bone growth - as you can see from cutlers jaw, cormiers skull, ronnies skull, dexters skull, etc
If you look at Cormier's skull you see a mushroom shape. The are muscles on the side of the skull there. IMO it's mostly the muscles that are swollen from the drugs. It's kind of hard to say for sure if the heads (the actual skull) have really grown or if it's bloat.
no not all of them.. here are 2 examples with good midsection size for their over all size!!
Take the guys with no guts, they have fairly long midsections. This type of structure doesn't get the distention as easily. Lee Priest is another example. Dorian and Ronnie had comparatively longer legs vs torso.
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If you look at Cormier's skull you see a mushroom shape. The are muscles on the side of the skull there. IMO it's mostly the muscles that are swollen from the drugs. It's kind of hard to say for sure if the heads (the actual skull) have really grown or if it's bloat.
Take the guys with no guts, they have fairly long midsections. This type of structure doesn't get the distention as easily. Lee Priest is another example. Dorian and Ronnie had comparatively longer legs vs torso.
lee priest only takes 200mg of deca a week + 1 nolva - no wonder he doesn't have a gut ;D
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looks fine to me.
if you want to see a gut look for jp faux or kovacs or palumbo or the keg
yes FT.. also the bloated guy who won the olympia in 97 with one arm ;D
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If you look at Cormier's skull you see a mushroom shape. The are muscles on the side of the skull there. IMO it's mostly the muscles that are swollen from the drugs. It's kind of hard to say for sure if the heads (the actual skull) have really grown or if it's bloat.
Take the guys with no guts, they have fairly long midsections. This type of structure doesn't get the distention as easily. Lee Priest is another example. Dorian and Ronnie had comparatively longer legs vs torso.
sure ronnie's lower body is tall for his upper body.. but i believe dorian is well proportioned..
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sure ronnie's lower body is tall for his upper body.. but i believe dorian is well proportioned..
There's nothing wrong with having long legs. It's more aesthetic than the converse IMO. Dorian's skeletal structure was great.
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You need to get to very high doses of slin to even get near to any gh gut,if you aren't pro by then you should stop what you doing ;D
I've using slin in moderate doses and it's a great muscle builder with gh and test
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Just trying to understand the cause? ???
unprotected sex
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I didn't say steroids are the cause. Before GH became widely used there was the term "roid belly". It does contribute and specific products, like some orals, cause distention in some users. If it's true Coleman does 10 Anadrols leading up to the Olympia (like someone here said) then it's likely contributing the the distention we saw in him IMO. Kamali said Wolf looked like he was using tons of Anadrol while being "trained" by Chad.
Hopefully no one reading my posts thinks I'm saying GH and insulin don't cause distention. That's not it, I'm saying we don't know how much organ growth is contributing to the problem.
You are getting your terms and facts mixed up. GH does NOT cause increased insulin sensitivity. It does the opposite and adding insulin only makes it worse. High dose GH causes such poor insulin sensitivity that some must add extra insulin. So yes, a pro can have poor sensitivity just like a typical fatass. Poor sensitivity can actually help you reduce subq fat since the fat is less sensitive to insulin. The fat burning effect is related to the fact that GH causes insulin resistance. (this is a longer topic that I'm not getting into now).
You're sort of confused. It increases insulin sensitivity with long term use. Look up some endocrinology journal articles on it. In addition, IGF1 definitely increases insulin sensitivity. We already know hGH causes the liver to increase production of IGF1.
Discussing these things on a non-stupid manner is fun but I still feel it's one of those topics where the answer doesn't really matter. :)
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how about igf-1 and igf-2?
isn't their loads of igf receptors in the intestines ? ( yes i know they are everywhere in the body, but there is a high concentration in the intestines)
gh by itself increases igf-1+2, however gh+ insulin increases it much higher,
this could lead to possible gut, and could also explain why low dosages of gh and/or insulin can lead to no gut while high dosages of either can lead to a gut.
low gh = reduced VAT minimum to no signs of organ growth ( certainly little muscle growth in studies) + slightly increased levels of igf-1&2
high gh = reduced VAT + increase in organ growth ( some muscle gain) + higher levels of igf -1&2
add insulin to the above 2 senarios = increases VAT and igf-1&2.
thoughts ?
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some other thoughts i have had.
look at the techniques and timing of the gh and insulin.
as far as i know chad has his athletes take gh every day then only use insulin 1 day a week, and he has them mega dose all day long. He also has them carb up on 800-1000g of carbs throughout that day.
This mega dose of insulin + the gh already in the system = lots of igf-1&2 all day long. Also the massive amounts of food taken in that day would stimulate increased intestine muscle work + blood flow to the area all day long. This basically takes the gut enlarging igf-1&2 directly to the place it causes most damage (gut) all day long.
milos protocol is different, he has his guys take gh every day with insulin only around the workouts where the blood is mostly in the major muscles - so the igf-1&2 goes to the muscles we want to grown. Yes their will be some blood flow to the intestines too, but it will only be a fraction of chads protocol, and for a much shorter duration.
in my opinion chads guys have had the gut problem where as milos's guys haven't. I know this is just my random thought but again it makes sense to me. Wolf is the most recent example of milos vs chads protocols, and he had no gut with milos then recently it looks bigger. time will tell how big it gets.
thoughts ?
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No one's going to do a study on drug users because of the side effects and increased cancer risks associated with gh use/abuse.
Lower doses don't seem to increase weight but definitely make people leaner. Short term gh seems to directly decrease insulin sensitivity but indirectly increase it through liver production of IGF1. Long term use increases insulin sensitivity directly and indirectly. That's why Van_Pilsnerass :) is sort of right too. It's just doubtful that the typical user is only doing the drugs short term and with any moderation. Either steroids or their effects are addictive to some and we also know there are a lot of people who are never 'off'.
I doubt anyone will ever do a great study double blind study on bodybuilders with follow-up evaluations of the same people at specific intervals. It would be pretty expensive, take a long time, be dangerous and have no medical benefit because the results wouldn't have any effect on the culture. By "effect" I mean specifically mean decrease use.
I personally feel it would be great if someone studied and came up with definitive, safe, peer reviewed guidelines for off-label and/or recreational/professional drug use. It'll probably never happen but I still feel it would create a bigger safety margin for people who are going to use anyways.
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I personally feel it would be great if someone studied and came up with definitive, safe, peer reviewed guidelines for off-label and/or recreational/professional drug use. It'll probably never happen but I still feel it would create a bigger safety margin for people who are going to use anyways.
Nobody would listen to that garbage anyway
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Nobody would listen to that garbage anyway
You're probably right.
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unprotected sex
True, pregnancy would tend to make the stomach protrude.
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True, pregnancy would tend to make the stomach protrude.
Please tell me this isn't going to end up being another thread about male butt sex.
Even if it's a lie. :)
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Short term gh seems to directly decrease insulin sensitivity but indirectly increase it through liver production of IGF1. Long term use increases insulin sensitivity directly and indirectly. That's why Van_Pilsnerass :) is sort of right too.
Even long term studies (like 2-4 years) always make the point that sensitivity is worsened in some, so monitoring of BG is important. This is with doses that only bring hGH and IGF-1 to normal levels. Bodybuilders basically always use doses above these.
The fat burning effect is tied to the reduction in insulin sensitivity, which is why I think you're wrong about initially worsening and then increasing sensitivity over the long term. If this were true then the fat burning effect would decrease over time too.
The increase in free fatty acids by GH is what causes insulin resistance:
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/88/4/1455
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/86/12/5813
Is 6 months long enough for you?
GH therapy resulted in impaired insulin-stimulated glucose uptake at 1 wk (-52%; P = 0.008) and 6 months (-39%; P = 0.008), which correlated with deterioration of glucose tolerance (r = -0.481; P = 0.003). The decrease in glucose uptake was associated with an increase in lipid oxidation at 1 wk (60%; P = 0.008) and 6 months (60%; P = 0.008) and a concomitant decrease in glucose oxidation. The deterioration of glucose metabolism during GH therapy also correlated with the enhanced rate of lipid oxidation (r = -0.508; P = 0.0002). In addition, there was a shift toward more glycolytic type II fibers during GH therapy.
In conclusion, replacement therapy with a low-dose GH in GH-deficient adult subjects is associated with a sustained deterioration of glucose metabolism as a consequence of the lipolytic effect of GH, resulting in enhanced oxidation of lipid substrates. Also, a shift toward more insulin-resistant type II X fibers is seen in muscle. Glucose metabolism should be carefully monitored during long-term GH replacement therapy.
To be fair, that paper does acknowledge that other studies show a return to baseline wrt insulin sensitivity (not increased sensitivity but return to baseline) over time but finishes with this:
It is thus important to monitor glucose tolerance during long-term treatment with even moderate doses of GH.
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gh does have ugly sides for definate though i.e. bone growth - as you can see from cutlers jaw, cormiers skull, ronnies skull, dexters skull, etc
you mean cartilage, not bone. gh can definitely cause cartilage growth, its called acromegaly
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you mean cartilage, not bone. gh can definitely cause cartilage growth, its called acromegaly
yes i do, no need to get shirty pointing out the obvious.
now about those ufo's ;)
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now about those ufo's ;)
distant car headlights bouncing off of inversion layers in the atmosphere
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distant car headlights bouncing off of inversion layers in the atmosphere
:o you're one of 'them' :o
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Even long term studies (like 2-4 years) always make the point that sensitivity is worsened in some, so monitoring of BG is important. This is with doses that only bring hGH and IGF-1 to normal levels. Bodybuilders basically always use doses above these.
The fat burning effect is tied to the reduction in insulin sensitivity, which is why I think you're wrong about initially worsening and then increasing sensitivity over the long term. If this were true then the fat burning effect would decrease over time too.
The increase in free fatty acids by GH is what causes insulin resistance:
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/88/4/1455
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/86/12/5813
Is 6 months long enough for you?
To be fair, that paper does acknowledge that other studies show a return to baseline wrt insulin sensitivity (not increased sensitivity but return to baseline) over time but finishes with this:
Thanks!!
I'll read those later tonight. Being better informed is a good thing. It's hard getting a consensus because many of the studies are treating patients with various endocrine conditions going on.
"Just like iron sharpens iron, one man must sharpen another".
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There's nothing wrong with having long legs. It's more aesthetic than the converse IMO. Dorian's skeletal structure was great.
agreed
that fucker had an awesome frame
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Why dont Tony Freeman have a huge gut yet massive? ???
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I once picked up a poop from the street and ate it
:-X