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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: tonymctones on May 23, 2009, 07:31:44 AM
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Since there has been a lot of talk of waterboarding in the last few days I thought id pose this question to the atheist that believe it to be morally wrong.
Where do your morals come from? you do realize that your morals are really nothing more then arbitrary rules put in place by men right?
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Since there has been a lot of talk of waterboarding in the last few days I thought id pose this question to the atheist that believe it to be morally wrong.
Where do your morals come from? you do realize that your morals are really nothing more then arbitrary rules put in place by men right?
No offence Tony but this seems the same silly argument you have claiming homosexuality is unnatural.
The golden rule is a man made codex of behaviour and it is self-explanatory. Part of the advancement in civilisation has come about through ethics or should we just do things OT style with rape, murder and genocide being some of the favourites of old Yahweh the Angry?
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No offence Tony but this seems the same silly argument you have claiming homosexuality is unnatural.
The golden rule is a man made codex of behaviour and it is self-explanatory. Part of the advancement in civilisation has come about through ethics or should we just do things OT style with rape, murder and genocide being some of the favourites of old Yahweh the Angry?
first i never said homosexuality was unnatural i know very well that it occurs in nature...my stance is that its POINTLESS and yes it is.
I agree i would rather them not try to suicide bomb us but since they insist on doing so we should do whats necessary to stop it.
You didnt address my points, this was not addressed to you so much as it was others as i know your stance on waterboarding is b/c you believe it not to be effective.
However as an atheist you do agree that your morals are arbitrary correct? If thats the case then i could just as easily make a case for waterboarding and have as much legitimacy as yours does...
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No offence Tony but this seems the same silly argument you have claiming homosexuality is unnatural.
The golden rule is a man made codex of behaviour and it is self-explanatory. Part of the advancement in civilisation has come about through ethics or should we just do things OT style with rape, murder and genocide being some of the favourites of old Yahweh the Angry?
It would be nice if everybody followed the the golden rule. But not all do and that's why we have to have laws and government. What do you suggest we do with those who violate the golden rule? Just give them a slap in the hand and ask them not to do it again?
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The Golden Rule, is a milestone in a social evolutionary journey.
Our society is far from not having to have laws.
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It would be nice if everybody followed the the golden rule. But not all do and that's why we have to have laws and government. What do you suggest we do with those who violate the golden rule? Just give them a slap in the hand and ask them not to do it again?
Add the injunction ...'as long as you don't hurt other people'...and then you are set. Of course crime should be punished but how we punish defines us ethically as much as anything else.
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first i never said homosexuality was unnatural i know very well that it occurs in nature...my stance is that its POINTLESS and yes it is.
I agree i would rather them not try to suicide bomb us but since they insist on doing so we should do whats necessary to stop it.
You didnt address my points, this was not addressed to you so much as it was others as i know your stance on waterboarding is b/c you believe it not to be effective.
However as an atheist you do agree that your morals are arbitrary correct? If thats the case then i could just as easily make a case for waterboarding and have as much legitimacy as yours does...
Hardly arbitrary. I don't want people to rob, hurt and kill me so I return the favour. Very rational indeed. I don't need a tyrant in the sky to scare me into behaving in accord with basic moral principles but I know some do and it's a shame.
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Hardly arbitrary. I don't want people to rob, hurt and kill me so I return the favour. Very rational indeed. I don't need a tyrant in the sky to scare me into behaving in accord with basic moral principles but I know some do and it's a shame.
ahhh so rationality is the guiding light for the safety of society...rationally if somebody held information that could save thousands of lives wouldnt it be the rational thing to get that info by any means necessary?
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ahhh so rationality is the guiding light for the safety of society...rationally if somebody held information that could save thousands of lives wouldnt it be the rational thing to get that info by any means necessary?
I agree but it is NOT effective. Torture was only ever used to extract confessions, whether true or not, just look at the Inquistion. It does not produce information that is useful. If you are being tortured you will say anything for it to stop. If there were hard evidence that it WORKED, I would consider it as an option.
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this is not about my beliefs deicide dont make this about mine if you would like to discuss mine when we get through with yours id be happy to do so.
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I agree but it is NOT effective. Torture was only ever used to extract confessions, whether true or not, just look at the Inquistion. It does not produce information that is useful. If you are being tortured you will say anything for it to stop. If there were hard evidence that it WORKED, I would consider it as an option.
its effectiveness is debatable, so if it worked you would have not rational reason not to use it?
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this is not about my beliefs deicide dont make this about mine if you would like to discuss mine when we get through with yours id be happy to do so.
Probably, IF all other options have been exhausted.
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The capacity for empathy and compassion is hard wired into our brains from an evolutionary stand-point and is cultivated through the guidance of our parents and interactions with our peers as well as our culture and Zeitgeist. Were you aware of studies which show that chimps in captivity experience visible signs of distress when confronted with the mistreatment of other chimps with which they are familiar? This clearly demonstrates that even lower order primates are endowed with an innate capacity to empathise. They don't need the Bible to tell them that murder or torture is wrong and neither do I.
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The capacity for empathy and compassion is hard wired into our brains from an evolutionary stand-point and is cultivated through the guidance of our parents and interactions with our peers as well as our culture and Zeitgeist. Were you aware of studies which show that chimps in captivity experience visible signs of distress when confronted with the mistreatment of other chimps with which they are familiar? This clearly demonstrates that even lower order primates are endowed with an innate capacity to empathise. They don't need the Bible to tell them that murder is wrong and neither do I.
LOL just like deicide you go straight to religion...this has to do with your beliefs not anybody elses if you want to talk about religion after fine id be happy to...
All i want to know is that you do understand that your morals are completely arbitrary and that my arguement for waterboarding is just as strong as your arguement is...
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I also will ALWAYS put myself in the scenario and ask, "how would I feel in this place, or under these present circumstances. What if I am innocent.....etc...."
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LOL just like deicide you go straight to religion...this has to do with your beliefs not anybody elses if you want to talk about religion after fine id be happy to...
All i want to know is that you do understand that your morals are completely arbitrary and that my arguement for waterboarding is just as strong as your arguement is...
Wrong. My morals are not completely arbitrary as I have stated. Your argument is NOT on equal footing as your reason for supporting Waterboarding is NOT the same reason that I am against it.
You are setting up a fallacious comparison and argument in order to rationalize your own personal bias.
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LOL just like deicide you go straight to religion...this has to do with your beliefs not anybody elses if you want to talk about religion after fine id be happy to...
All i want to know is that you do understand that your morals are completely arbitrary and that my arguement for waterboarding is just as strong as your arguement is...
Arbitrary? What is arbitrary about the Golden Rule? Is Yahweh the Squinty Eyed the standard? What rules does he follow?
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Furthermore, we have to share this world with other people. That fact alone constrains our actions because our actions have consequences not only to us but to all around us.
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Wrong. My morals are not completely arbitrary as I have stated. Your argument is NOT on equal footing as your reason for supporting Waterboarding is NOT the same reason that I am against it.
You are setting up a fallacious comparison and argument in order to rationalize your own personal bias.
You are against it b/c of moral reasons correct youve said many times that you dont believe it to be morally right?
Since atheist morals are simply arbitrary and do to really nothing more the logic, wouldnt it be logical to extract information from them in anyway possible?
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Furthermore, we have to share this world with other people. That fact alone constrains our actions because our actions have consequences not only to us but to all around us.
actions do have consequences im not advocating waterboarding everybody that comes our way but if it needs to be done it needs to be done. Fact is that these ppl are trying to kill us they wont stop that fact alone means that we should do everything in our power to stop them.
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You are against it b/c of moral reasons correct youve said many times that you dont believe it to be morally right?
Since atheist morals are simply arbitrary and do to really nothing more the logic, wouldnt it be logical to extract information from them in anyway possible?
Again, my morals are not simply arbitrary so your whole premise cannot even be considered.
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Again, my morals are not simply arbitrary so your whole premise cannot even be considered.
yes my friend they are...please explain to me the basis of your moral beliefs?
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actions do have consequences im not advocating waterboarding everybody that comes our way but if it needs to be done it needs to be done. Fact is that these ppl are trying to kill us they wont stop that fact alone means that we should do everything in our power to stop them.
How do you know who to waterboard and who not to waterboard? How do you arrive that waterboarding will work when there is ZERO evidence that it has or does? Why do you operate under the assumption that waterboarding will work if everything else has not? If waterboarding does not work, where do you go from there? Where does the suffering stop?
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yes my friend they are...please explain to me the basis of your moral beliefs?
Did you not read my previous posts? I want you to go back and re-read what I posted from the start and the succeeding posts, then re-post what I wrote so I can verify that you understand.
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You are against it b/c of moral reasons correct youve said many times that you dont believe it to be morally right?
Since atheist morals are simply arbitrary and do to really nothing more the logic, wouldnt it be logical to extract information from them in anyway possible?
This argument is tired and old, most famously expounded by Fyodor Dostoyevsky in The Brothers Karamazov. It has been answered many times over. The morality in the Bible is completely contradictory and paradoxical, indeed arbitrary. It is not arbitrary to seek to avoid pain and harm and as a consequence recognise that the best way to achieve this is to act in such a manner towards others. Nothing arbitrary about it.
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My mirror Neurons for pain and suffering are quite strong and I have an intense biological and evolutionary hard-wired Aversion to this type of behavior.
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How do you know who to waterboard and who not to waterboard? How do you arrive that waterboarding will work when there is ZERO evidence that it has or does? Why do you operate under the assumption that waterboarding will work if everything else has not? If waterboarding does not work, where do you go from there? Where does the suffering stop?
You talk to them its can be fairly obvious when a person isnt telling you the whole truth either through evidence that you have or other means...Waterboardings effectiveness is debatable whether you want to believe that or not it is...I dont operate under the assumption that waterboarding will work I operate under the assumption that if simply talking to them isnt you MUST UP THE ANTI you cant just sit there on your hands...where the suffereing stops isnt important the gathering of info that will save the lives of our soldiers and citizens it whats important.
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Did you not read my previous posts? I want you to go back and re-read what I posted from the start and the succeeding posts, then re-post what I wrote so I can verify that you understand.
I did so your morals come from empathy? what about empathy for those who these ppl intend to harm? again your arguement against it isnt any more compelling then my arguement for it put into the same context... ::)
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I did so your morals come from empathy? what about empathy for those who these ppl intend to harm? again your arguement against it isnt any more compelling then my arguement for it put into the same context... ::)
Again, morality is derived from many places biologically, evolutionary as well as culturally. I urge you to again, re-read what I have posted and try to grasp it a bit better.
You are also operating under the assumption that these people have something to tell but are not telling. You are constructing a false scenario from the outset by concluding that A. These people have something to tell and B. These people want to harm as many people as possible. You are drawing a pre-conceived conclusion based on what? How do you determine that "Yeah, this person has nothing to say". How many times and how long do you torture to determine someone is innocent or has no information? How do we know they are intending to harm anyone? How did you determine that torturing will work when all the evidence says it NEVER has? Even if you are morally bankrupt and do not mind torture, would you not seek the most effective method which is NOT torture as all evidence suggests?
Our arguments are not based on the same principles so they cannot in any way be construed as being on equal footing.
Those are a lot of questions I would like you to answer point for point, but first start with this one:
How do you determine that "Yeah, this person has nothing to say". How many times and how long do you torture to determine someone is innocent or has no information?
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Again, morality is derived from many places biologically, evolutionary as well as culturally. I urge you to again, re-read what I have posted and try to grasp it a bit better.
You are also operating under the assumption that these people have something to tell but are not telling. You are constructing a false scenario from the outset by concluding that A. These people have something to tell and B. These people want to harm as many people as possible. You are drawing a pre-conceived conclusion based on what? How do you determine that "Yeah, this person has nothing to say". How many times and how long do you torture to determine someone is innocent or has no information? How do we know they are intending to harm anyone? How did you determine that torturing will work when all the evidence says it NEVER has? Even if you are morally bankrupt and do not mind torture, would you not seek the most effective method which is NOT torture as all evidence suggests?
Our arguments are not based on the same principles so they cannot in any way be construed as being on equal footing.
Those are a lot of questions I would like you to answer point for point, but first start with this one:
How do you determine that "Yeah, this person has nothing to say". How many times and how long do you torture to determine someone is innocent or has no information?
LOL you did well at laying a blanket statement down there that basically said nothing, cultural morals are arbitrary and differ from culture to culture, evolutionary morals would say that you do what you need to to survive(this would be for waterboarding), Biological morals please explain that...and then tell me which one pertains to your stance that waterboarding is immoral.
Again by simply having a conversation with someone you can determine if they are telling the truth say you know they met with this person by you ask if they have and they say no right there they are lying and more then likely trying to hide something...its a simple as that but can get more complicated go watch 48 hours or some cop show and watch them do an interrogation and you will understand what i mean.
If they have info about ppl who will harm us and arent talking thats enough they themselves dont need to be the ones plotting. AGAIN THE SUCESS OF WATERBOARDING IS DEBATEABLE EVEN IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO THINK OTHERWISE ITS A FACT.
Again you believe that i believe waterboarding should be the first thing ppl do I dont i believe it should be one of the last but certainly not taken off the table like alot of so called moral atheist believe ::)
How long doesnt matter to me as ive already stated if waterboarding isnt working move on to something else...Again you assume these ppl are just running around waterboarding everyone they can get their hands on that ASSumption is moronic, this technique was used when it needed to be used not for everyday interrogations. If you KNOW that they have information then guess what there is not stopping you get that info one way or the other.
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yes my friend they are...please explain to me the basis of your moral beliefs?
Damn... The movie Short Circuit summed it up quite nicely.
"I told me."
(http://interocitor.com/images/johnny5.jpg)
Fake movie robots have more understanding than some people.
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Since there has been a lot of talk of waterboarding in the last few days I thought id pose this question to the atheist that believe it to be morally wrong.
Where do your morals come from? you do realize that your morals are really nothing more then arbitrary rules put in place by men right?
I dont think about the moral issue... I think about the LEGAL ISSUE. I'm an ATHEIST. If I waterboared your pussy ass Id go to PRISON for it, and you would scream and cry like a little bitch and do everything to prosecute me. Why would I go to prison? because of the "Moral Issue" or because THEY LEGALLY CAN DUE TO IT BEING AGAINST THE LAW.
Comprende?
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I have a real problem if torture is used on our soldiers as well.
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It would be nice if everybody followed the the golden rule. But not all do and that's why we have to have laws and government. What do you suggest we do with those who violate the golden rule? Just give them a slap in the hand and ask them not to do it again?
I'm surprised such a staunch Christian such as yourself would even ask such a question? What Would Jesus Do?
He'd probably turn the other cheek. Why aren't you willing to turn the other cheek and seek the protection of Jesus? Why must you behave so vengefully? Vengence is mine saith the Lord, ...and that ain't YOU. 8)
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I dont think about the moral issue... I think about the LEGAL ISSUE. I'm an ATHEIST. If I waterboared your pussy ass Id go to PRISON for it, and you would scream and cry like a little bitch and do everything to prosecute me. Why would I go to prison? because of the "Moral Issue" or because THEY LEGALLY CAN DUE TO IT BEING AGAINST THE LAW.
Comprende?
In all honesty busted i respect your anwser would i severely kick your retarded ass in real life of course i would hands down...but i respect your answer...
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In all honesty busted i respect your anwser would i severely kick your retarded ass in real life of course i would hands down...but i respect your answer...
You should respect my answer... becacuse its 100 percent true, and if someone water boarded you or your family member, you wold be screaming bloody murder and go on a crusade to have them jailed for life for "torture"... but when "High ups" in the right wing are about to get prosecuted for it, you say anything and everything to defend them... sad... really sad...
On the You kicking my ass thing? HA HA HA HA... Im not even going to comment on that...
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You should respect my answer... becacuse its 100 percent true, and if someone water boarded you or your family member, you wold be screaming bloody murder and go on a crusade to have them jailed for life for "torture"... but when "High ups" in the right wing are about to get prosecuted for it, you say anything and everything to defend them... sad... really sad...
On the You kicking my ass thing? HA HA HA HA... Im not even going to comment on that...
LOL its true bud up and down the street all day long son
If one of my family was trying to kill ppl id do it myself you jackass...
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I bet you wax your eyebrows... typical NY/NJ flaming metro sexual...
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I bet you wax your eyebrows... typical NY/NJ flaming metro sexual...
hahahahah LOL actually my eyebrows arent that bad a tad bit bushy but hey thats ok...and im from Houston, Texas dip shit a long way and far cry from New york...hahahah