Atheist against Waterboarding?

[tonymctones]

Since there has been a lot of talk of waterboarding in the last few days I thought id pose this question to the atheist that believe it to be morally wrong.

Where do your morals come from? you do realize that your morals are really nothing more then arbitrary rules put in place by men right?

[Deicide]

Since there has been a lot of talk of waterboarding in the last few days I thought id pose this question to the atheist that believe it to be morally wrong.

Where do your morals come from? you do realize that your morals are really nothing more then arbitrary rules put in place by men right?

No offence Tony but this seems the same silly argument you have claiming homosexuality is unnatural. 

The golden rule is a man made codex of behaviour and it is self-explanatory. Part of the advancement in civilisation has come about through ethics or should we just do things OT style with rape, murder and genocide being some of the favourites of old Yahweh the Angry?

[tonymctones]

No offence Tony but this seems the same silly argument you have claiming homosexuality is unnatural. 

The golden rule is a man made codex of behaviour and it is self-explanatory. Part of the advancement in civilisation has come about through ethics or should we just do things OT style with rape, murder and genocide being some of the favourites of old Yahweh the Angry?

first i never said homosexuality was unnatural i know very well that it occurs in nature...my stance is that its POINTLESS and yes it is.

I agree i would rather them not try to suicide bomb us but since they insist on doing so we should do whats necessary to stop it.

You didnt address my points, this was not addressed to you so much as it was others as i know your stance on waterboarding is b/c you believe it not to be effective.

However as an atheist you do agree that your morals are arbitrary correct? If thats the case then i could just as easily make a case for waterboarding and have as much legitimacy as yours does...

[loco]

No offence Tony but this seems the same silly argument you have claiming homosexuality is unnatural. 

The golden rule is a man made codex of behaviour and it is self-explanatory. Part of the advancement in civilisation has come about through ethics or should we just do things OT style with rape, murder and genocide being some of the favourites of old Yahweh the Angry?

It would be nice if everybody followed the the golden rule.  But not all do and that's why we have to have laws and government.  What do you suggest we do with those who violate the golden rule?  Just give them a slap in the hand and ask them not to do it again?

[OzmO]

The Golden Rule, is a milestone in a social evolutionary journey.

Our society is far from not having to have laws.

[Deicide]

It would be nice if everybody followed the the golden rule.  But not all do and that's why we have to have laws and government.  What do you suggest we do with those who violate the golden rule?  Just give them a slap in the hand and ask them not to do it again?

Add the injunction ...'as long as you don't hurt other people'...and then you are set. Of course crime should be punished but how we punish defines us ethically as much as anything else.

[Deicide]

first i never said homosexuality was unnatural i know very well that it occurs in nature...my stance is that its POINTLESS and yes it is.

I agree i would rather them not try to suicide bomb us but since they insist on doing so we should do whats necessary to stop it.

You didnt address my points, this was not addressed to you so much as it was others as i know your stance on waterboarding is b/c you believe it not to be effective.

However as an atheist you do agree that your morals are arbitrary correct? If thats the case then i could just as easily make a case for waterboarding and have as much legitimacy as yours does...

Hardly arbitrary. I don't want people to rob, hurt and kill me so I return the favour. Very rational indeed. I don't need a tyrant in the sky to scare me into behaving in accord with basic moral principles but I know some do and it's a shame.

[tonymctones]

Hardly arbitrary. I don't want people to rob, hurt and kill me so I return the favour. Very rational indeed. I don't need a tyrant in the sky to scare me into behaving in accord with basic moral principles but I know some do and it's a shame.

ahhh so rationality is the guiding light for the safety of society...rationally if somebody held information that could save thousands of lives wouldnt it be the rational thing to get that info by any means necessary?

[Deicide]

ahhh so rationality is the guiding light for the safety of society...rationally if somebody held information that could save thousands of lives wouldnt it be the rational thing to get that info by any means necessary?

I agree but it is NOT effective. Torture was only ever used to extract confessions, whether true or not, just look at the Inquistion. It does not produce information that is useful. If you are being tortured you will say anything for it to stop. If there were hard evidence that it WORKED, I would consider it as an option.

[tonymctones]

this is not about my beliefs deicide dont make this about mine if you would like to discuss mine when we get through with yours id be happy to do so.

[tonymctones]

I agree but it is NOT effective. Torture was only ever used to extract confessions, whether true or not, just look at the Inquistion. It does not produce information that is useful. If you are being tortured you will say anything for it to stop. If there were hard evidence that it WORKED, I would consider it as an option.

its effectiveness is debatable, so if it worked you would have not rational reason not to use it?

[Deicide]

this is not about my beliefs deicide dont make this about mine if you would like to discuss mine when we get through with yours id be happy to do so.

Probably, IF all other options have been exhausted.

[The True Adonis]

The capacity for empathy and compassion is hard wired into our brains from an evolutionary stand-point and is cultivated through the guidance of our parents and interactions with our peers as well as our culture and Zeitgeist. Were you aware of studies which show that chimps in captivity experience visible signs of distress when confronted with the mistreatment of other chimps with which they are familiar? This clearly demonstrates that even lower order primates are endowed with an innate capacity to empathise. They don't need the Bible to tell them that murder or torture is wrong and neither do I.

[tonymctones]

The capacity for empathy and compassion is hard wired into our brains from an evolutionary stand-point and is cultivated through the guidance of our parents and interactions with our peers as well as our culture and Zeitgeist. Were you aware of studies which show that chimps in captivity experience visible signs of distress when confronted with the mistreatment of other chimps with which they are familiar? This clearly demonstrates that even lower order primates are endowed with an innate capacity to empathise. They don't need the Bible to tell them that murder is wrong and neither do I.

LOL just like deicide you go straight to religion...this has to do with your beliefs not anybody elses if you want to talk about religion after fine id be happy to...

All i want to know is that you do understand that your morals are completely arbitrary and that my arguement for waterboarding is just as strong as your arguement is...

[The True Adonis]

I also will ALWAYS put myself in the scenario and ask, "how would I feel in this place, or under these present circumstances.  What if I am innocent.....etc...."

[The True Adonis]

LOL just like deicide you go straight to religion...this has to do with your beliefs not anybody elses if you want to talk about religion after fine id be happy to...

All i want to know is that you do understand that your morals are completely arbitrary and that my arguement for waterboarding is just as strong as your arguement is...

Wrong. My morals are not completely arbitrary as I have stated.  Your argument is NOT on equal footing as your reason for supporting Waterboarding is NOT the same reason that I am against it.

You are setting up a fallacious comparison and argument in order to rationalize your own personal bias.

[Deicide]

LOL just like deicide you go straight to religion...this has to do with your beliefs not anybody elses if you want to talk about religion after fine id be happy to...

All i want to know is that you do understand that your morals are completely arbitrary and that my arguement for waterboarding is just as strong as your arguement is...

Arbitrary? What is arbitrary about the Golden Rule? Is Yahweh the Squinty Eyed the standard? What rules does he follow?

[The True Adonis]

Furthermore, we have to share this world with other people. That fact alone constrains our actions because our actions have consequences not only to us but to all around us.

[tonymctones]

Wrong. My morals are not completely arbitrary as I have stated.  Your argument is NOT on equal footing as your reason for supporting Waterboarding is NOT the same reason that I am against it.

You are setting up a fallacious comparison and argument in order to rationalize your own personal bias.

You are against it b/c of moral reasons correct youve said many times that you dont believe it to be morally right?

Since atheist morals are simply arbitrary and do to really nothing more the logic, wouldnt it be logical to extract information from them in anyway possible?

[tonymctones]

Furthermore, we have to share this world with other people. That fact alone constrains our actions because our actions have consequences not only to us but to all around us.

actions do have consequences im not advocating waterboarding everybody that comes our way but if it needs to be done it needs to be done. Fact is that these ppl are trying to kill us they wont stop that fact alone means that we should do everything in our power to stop them.

[The True Adonis]

You are against it b/c of moral reasons correct youve said many times that you dont believe it to be morally right?

Since atheist morals are simply arbitrary and do to really nothing more the logic, wouldnt it be logical to extract information from them in anyway possible?

Again, my morals are not simply arbitrary so your whole premise cannot even be considered.

[tonymctones]

Again, my morals are not simply arbitrary so your whole premise cannot even be considered.

yes my friend they are...please explain to me the basis of your moral beliefs?

[The True Adonis]

actions do have consequences im not advocating waterboarding everybody that comes our way but if it needs to be done it needs to be done. Fact is that these ppl are trying to kill us they wont stop that fact alone means that we should do everything in our power to stop them.

How do you know who to waterboard and who not to waterboard?  How do you arrive that waterboarding will work when there is ZERO evidence that it has or does?  Why do you operate under the assumption that waterboarding will work if everything else has not?  If waterboarding does not work, where do you go from there?  Where does the suffering stop?

[The True Adonis]

yes my friend they are...please explain to me the basis of your moral beliefs?

Did you not read my previous posts?  I want you to go back and re-read what I posted from the start and the succeeding posts, then re-post what I wrote so I can verify that you understand.

[Deicide]

You are against it b/c of moral reasons correct youve said many times that you dont believe it to be morally right?

Since atheist morals are simply arbitrary and do to really nothing more the logic, wouldnt it be logical to extract information from them in anyway possible?

This argument is tired and old, most famously expounded by Fyodor Dostoyevsky in The Brothers Karamazov. It has been answered many times over. The morality in the Bible is completely contradictory and paradoxical, indeed arbitrary. It is not arbitrary to seek to avoid pain and harm and as a consequence recognise that the best way to achieve this is to act in such a manner towards others. Nothing arbitrary about it.