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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Benny B on August 02, 2009, 10:28:21 AM
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August 1, 2009
Anger Has Its Place
By BOB HERBERT
Cambridge, Mass.
No more than five or six minutes elapsed from the time the police were alerted to the possibility of a break-in at a home in a quiet residential neighborhood and the awful clamping of handcuffs on the wrists of the distinguished Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr.
If Professor Gates ranted and raved at the cop who entered his home uninvited with a badge, a gun and an attitude, he didn’t rant and rave for long. The 911 call came in at about 12:45 on the afternoon of July 16 and, as The Times has reported, Mr. Gates was arrested, cuffed and about to be led off to jail by 12:51.
The charge: angry while black.
The president of the United States has suggested that we use this flare-up as a “teachable moment,” but so far exactly the wrong lessons are being drawn from it — especially for black people. The message that has gone out to the public is that powerful African-American leaders like Mr. Gates and President Obama will be very publicly slapped down for speaking up and speaking out about police misbehavior, and that the proper response if you think you are being unfairly targeted by the police because of your race is to chill.
I have nothing but contempt for that message.
Mr. Gates is a friend, and I was selected some months ago to receive an award from an institute that he runs at Harvard. I made no attempt to speak to him while researching this column.
The very first lesson that should be drawn from the encounter between Mr. Gates and the arresting officer, Sgt. James Crowley, is that Professor Gates did absolutely nothing wrong. He did not swear at the officer or threaten him. He was never a danger to anyone. At worst, if you believe the police report, he yelled at Sergeant Crowley. He demanded to know if he was being treated the way he was being treated because he was black.
You can yell at a cop in America. This is not Iran. And if some people don’t like what you’re saying, too bad. You can even be wrong in what you are saying. There is no law against that. It is not an offense for which you are supposed to be arrested.
That’s a lesson that should have emerged clearly from this contretemps.
It was the police officer, Sergeant Crowley, who did something wrong in this instance. He arrested a man who had already demonstrated to the officer’s satisfaction that he was in his own home and had been minding his own business, bothering no one. Sergeant Crowley arrested Professor Gates and had him paraded off to jail for no good reason, and that brings us to the most important lesson to be drawn from this case. Black people are constantly being stopped, searched, harassed, publicly humiliated, assaulted, arrested and sometimes killed by police officers in this country for no good reason.
New York City cops make upwards of a half-million stops of private citizens each year, questioning and frequently frisking these men, women and children. The overwhelming majority of those stopped are black or Latino, and the overwhelming majority are innocent of any wrongdoing. A true “teachable moment” would focus a spotlight on such outrages and the urgent need to stop them.
But this country is not interested in that.
I wrote a number of columns about the arrests of more than 30 black and Hispanic youngsters — male and female — who were doing nothing more than walking peacefully down a quiet street in Brooklyn in broad daylight in the spring of 2007. The kids had to hire lawyers and fight the case for nearly two frustrating years before the charges were dropped and a settlement for their outlandish arrests worked out.
Black people need to roar out their anger at such treatment, lift up their voices and demand change. Anyone counseling a less militant approach is counseling self-defeat. As of mid-2008, there were 4,777 black men imprisoned in America for every 100,000 black men in the population. By comparison, there were only 727 white male inmates per 100,000 white men.
While whites use illegal drugs at substantially higher percentages than blacks, black men are sent to prison on drug charges at 13 times the rate of white men.
Most whites do not want to hear about racial problems, and President Obama would rather walk through fire than spend his time dealing with them. We’re never going to have a serious national conversation about race. So that leaves it up to ordinary black Americans to rant and to rave, to demonstrate and to lobby, to march and confront and to sue and generally do whatever is necessary to stop a continuing and deeply racist criminal justice outrage.
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The same argument can be made that blacks dont want to have a serious conversation about race that doesnt involve throwing a hissy fit and becoming overly emotional. Some of my less evolved friends would say that blacks dont want to have any serious discussion about race in America that doesnt involve them ignoring their own behavior while blaming whitey for everything and anything.
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The same argument can be made that blacks dont want to have a serious conversation about race that doesnt involve throwing a hissy fit and becoming overly emotional. Some of my less evolved friends would say that blacks dont want to have any serious discussion about race in America that doesnt involve them ignoring their own behavior while blaming whitey for everything and anything.
From the article:
"And that the proper response if you think you are being unfairly targeted by the police because of your race is to chill."
Why should society have to accomodate every dumb subjective view? Gates was plain wrong in his belief he was being targeted due to his race. Crowley was there to investigate a potential robbery in progress.
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Considering the amount of crimes committed by blacks and latino's, maybe they ought to get stopped more in high crime areas. Maybe blacks should see this as an attamept to make society safer. If i lived in a meth lab infested area and the cops stopped me, I wouldn't whine.
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From the article:
"And that the proper response if you think you are being unfairly targeted by the police because of your race is to chill."
Why should society have to accomodate every dumb subjective view? Gates was plain wrong in his belief he was being targeted due to his race. Crowley was there to investigate a potential robbery in progress.
You take that quote out of context. The author of the article goes on to state:
"I have nothing but contempt for that message."
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The president of the United States has suggested that we use this flare-up as a “teachable moment,” but so far exactly the wrong lessons are being drawn from it — especially for black people. The message that has gone out to the public is that powerful African-American leaders like Mr. Gates and President Obama will be very publicly slapped down for speaking up and speaking out about police misbehavior, and that the proper response if you think you are being unfairly targeted by the police because of your race is to chill.
I have nothing but contempt for that message.
The proper response IS to chill out. Acting like a fool solve nothing and only causes further problems. Frankly I'm really surprise this man is a "Harvard" grad. He seems more like a arrogant idiot to me.
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Most whites do not want to hear about racial problems, and President Obama would rather walk through fire than spend his time dealing with them. We’re never going to have a serious national conversation about race. So that leaves it up to ordinary black Americans to rant and to rave, to demonstrate and to lobby, to march and confront and to sue and generally do whatever is necessary to stop a continuing and deeply racist criminal justice outrage.
This only fuels the "not having to be accountable for your life" attitude many people have for many different reasons including the "I'm black" victim mentality.
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While whites use illegal drugs at substantially higher percentages than blacks, black men are sent to prison on drug charges at 13 times the rate of white men.
Maybe they should just stop using & trafficking illegal drugs. Oh, no, lets just whine about percentages.
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The proper response IS to chill out. Acting like a fool solve nothing and only causes further problems. Frankly I'm really surprise this man is a "Harvard" grad. He seems more like a arrogant idiot to me.
If that attitude prevails, ...this will no doubt happen again, and when it does... we'll see what people say then. :-\
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If that attitude prevails, ...this will no doubt happen again, and when it does... we'll see what people say then. :-\
It happens everyday. The only difference is the cop was stupid enough to arrest him. The cop should have just dropped it. As it happens everyday, most people are smart enough to chill and provide ID letting the cops do their job, especially in this instance.
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Maybe they should just stop using & trafficking illegal drugs. Oh, no, lets just whine about percentages.
Perhaps, ...but you do have to question a criminal justice system that demands felony convictions and mandatory jail terms for minimal quantities of drugs for personal consumption, while maintaining huge quantities of the very same drug obviously for trafficking and distribution as mere misdemeanors without any mandatory jail terms attached. Sounds more a wasteful ineffectual system geared towards swatting bees rather than dismantling hives.
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It happens everyday. The only difference is the cop was stupid enough to arrest him. The cop should have just dropped it.
BINGO! So why is everyone so up in arms that the President spoke the truth? Crowley did act stupidly!
What was it about this situation that rattled Crowley so much that he felt the need to slap handcuffs on the man?
Was it anger over the threat to file charges on him? Was it anger & resentment over being called a racist, after all he has done regarding racial profiling? Was it the desire to teach this pompous man a lesson in humility? Did he think Gates was going to start a riot? What rattled Crowley so much he felt the need to effect an arrest? If Crowley can't keep his cool in the face of a tiny little old man yelling at him... he needs to be behind a desk and not interacting with the community.
As it happens everyday, most people are smart enough to chill and provide ID letting the cops do their job, especially in this instance.
And Gates did provide ID two forms of it
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Perhaps, ...but you do have to question a criminal justice system that demands felony convictions and mandatory jail terms for minimal quantities of drugs for personal consumption, while maintaining huge quantities of the very same drug obviously for trafficking and distribution as mere misdemeanors without any mandatory jail terms attached. Sounds more a wasteful ineffectual system geared towards swatting bees rather than dismantling hives.
I've always been an advocate for the legalization of most non victimized crimes. However, what you said there is not true. There are many people who are spending 10-15 years in prison for trafficking something a harmless as pot. Further more, as far as pot goes most states, getting busted with less than an ounce is a small fine. So i don't know where you get the idea that if I get busted trafficking I'm sure to get off pretty much scott free. I'm sure there have been instances where it has happened, but the norm is, you are serious crap if you get busted with a traffic quantity of drugs and you should plan on spending some time behind bars.
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I've always been an advocate for the legalization of most non victimized crimes. However, what you said there is not true. There are many people who are spending 10-15 years in prison for trafficking something a harmless as pot. Further more, as far as pot goes most states, getting busted with less than an ounce is a small fine. So i don't know where you get the idea that if I get busted trafficking I'm sure to get off pretty much scott free. I'm sure there have been instances where it has happened, but the norm is, you are serious crap if you get busted with a traffic quantity of drugs and you should plan on spending some time behind bars.
The drug I reference isn't marijuana. Heck, pot was the farthest thing from my mind. I was thinking coke
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BINGO! So why is everyone so up in arms that the President spoke the truth? Crowley did act stupidly!
What was it about this situation that rattled Crowley so much that he felt the need to slap handcuffs on the man?
Was it anger over the threat to file charges on him? Was it anger & resentment over being called a racist, after all he has done regarding racial profiling? Was it the desire to teach this pompous man a lesson in humility? Did he think Gates was going to start a riot? What rattled Crowley so much he felt the need to effect an arrest? If Crowley can't keep his cool in the face of a tiny little old man yelling at him... he needs to be behind a desk and not interacting with the community.
And Gates did provide ID two forms of it
I agree Crowley should have just walked away. However, he was with in the law to arrest him. Was it the wisest decision? No. Sometimes cops use good judgement in certain cases and don't, on their discretion, apply the law. And sometimes they do when it isn't really a good idea. In the end, cops are human and Crowley made a mistake. But don't think for one second Gates is immune from blame in this instant.
The bottom line here is they BOTH acted stupidly.
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The drug I reference isn't marijuana. Heck, pot was the farthest thing from my mind. I was thinking coke
Same difference (except for possession of small amounts of coke). If you think you won't surely spend time behind bars for trafficking keys of coke because you are white you are seriously tripping.
Here's a state by state run down of coke laws:
http://law.jrank.org/pages/11809/Cocaine.html (http://law.jrank.org/pages/11809/Cocaine.html)
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And you know what, to a certain extent, I can understand Crowley's reaction. He probably at some point lost HIS cool and figured he teach this jack ass a lesson. Well it back fired on Crowley. Bad call.
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I agree Crowley should have just walked away. However, he was with in the law to arrest him. Was it the wisest decision? No. Sometimes cops use good judgement in certain cases and don't, on their discretion, apply the law. And sometimes they do when it isn't really a good idea. In the end, cops are human and Crowley made a mistake. But don't think for one second Gates is immune from blame in this instant.
The bottom line here is they BOTH acted stupidly.
Agreed, ...but a man has the right to act stupidly in his own home. Crowley made an unlawful decision to follow Gates into his home. Without a warrant, and without probable cause, he should not have been inside the premises. A 911 call isn't probable cause, ...especially one wherein the caller suggests there may not even be a crime occuring. Crowley has to witness suspicious criminal behaviour, hear cries for help, or have knowledge of imminent danger to occupants within the premises to enter without a warrant. He acted stupidly, then compounded it further by making the arrest.
And you know what, to a certain extent, I can understand Crowley's reaction. He probably at some point lost HIS cool and figured he teach this jack ass a lesson. Well it back fired on Crowley. Bad call.
I completely understand Crowley's reaction as well, ...but just because I understand it, doesn't mean I condone it. Quite the opposite infact, especially in light of his profession. He's going to encounter all types. Because he has the legal authority to arrest, and shoot people, he's got to leave the pettiness behind, and he has to be held accountable for how he exercises the authority he's been given. If he can't keep his head and rise above pettiness, ...he needs to be behind a desk, not interacting with the public. The President was right, ...Crowley acted stupidly.
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From the article:
"And that the proper response if you think you are being unfairly targeted by the police because of your race is to chill."
Why should society have to accomodate every dumb subjective view? Gates was plain wrong in his belief he was being targeted due to his race. Crowley was there to investigate a potential robbery in progress.
Agree.
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Considering the amount of crimes committed by blacks and latino's, maybe they ought to get stopped more in high crime areas. Maybe blacks should see this as an attamept to make society safer. If i lived in a meth lab infested area and the cops stopped me, I wouldn't whine.
That's what they don't want. The think that if they bitched enough, the authorities will leave them alone so they can continue their misdeeds. The media and apologists are actually condoning this behavior.
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Agreed, ...but a man has the right to act stupidly in his own home. Crowley made an unlawful decision to follow Gates into his home. Without a warrant, and without probable cause, he should not have been inside the premises. A 911 call isn't probable cause, ...especially one wherein the caller suggests there may not even be a crime occuring. Crowley has to witness suspicious criminal behaviour, hear cries for help, or have knowledge of imminent danger to occupants within the premises to enter without a warrant. He acted stupidly, then compounded it further by making the arrest.
I completely understand Crowley's reaction as well, ...but just because I understand it, doesn't mean I condone it. Quite the opposite infact, especially in light of his profession. He's going to encounter all types. Because he has the legal authority to arrest, and shoot people, he's got to leave the pettiness behind, and he has to be held accountable for how he exercises the authority he's been given. If he can't keep his head and rise above pettiness, ...he needs to be behind a desk, not interacting with the public. The President was right, ...Crowley acted stupidly.
Do you argue for the sake of arguing? How many times have we had to establish that the cop was there to investigate a possible break-in? That's the definition of probable cause.
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Agreed, ...but a man has the right to act stupidly in his own home. Crowley made an unlawful decision to follow Gates into his home. Without a warrant, and without probable cause, he should not have been inside the premises. A 911 call isn't probable cause, ...especially one wherein the caller suggests there may not even be a crime occuring. Crowley has to witness suspicious criminal behaviour, hear cries for help, or have knowledge of imminent danger to occupants within the premises to enter without a warrant. He acted stupidly, then compounded it further by making the arrest.
Did he unlawfully enter the house after ID had been established? If he did, then there might be a problem with that. But if he didn't and he entered the house prior to ID being establish he is well with in probable cause because the call was classified as a burglary in progress and he had potential suspects on the premises.
Hell, put it up for a vote. Do you want your local police force to enter your home without your permission if potential suspects are inside and the police are on a burglary call OR do you want them not to go in at all and just stand by the front door until you are located?
Kind of a no brainer.
Think about it. What if your kids were home alone, around 13yrs old. Perhaps, your daughter getting raped, but the cops can't inside even though it's a burglary call and you have potential suspects refusing to show you ID?
I completely understand Crowley's reaction as well, ...but just because I understand it, doesn't mean I condone it. Quite the opposite infact, especially in light of his profession. He's going to encounter all types. Because he has the legal authority to arrest, and shoot people, he's got to leave the pettiness behind, and he has to be held accountable for how he exercises the authority he's been given. If he can't keep his head and rise above pettiness, ...he needs to be behind a desk, not interacting with the public. The President was right, ...Crowley acted stupidly.
Crowley acted stupidly because he exercised bad judgement. Something every human being does. Even Ghandi. That being said, Crowley acted with in the limits of the law. If you think Crowely arresting him was pettiness then you don't understand his reaction at all.
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Do you argue for the sake of arguing? How many times have we had to establish that the cop was there to investigate a possible break-in? That's the definition of probable cause.
I understand Crowley was there to investigate a possible breakin,
...however, that's not probable cause to enter the premises warrantless & uninvited.
ESPECIALLY WHEN WARRANTLESS & UNINVITED... he saw him grab a cordless phone and call into find out the police chief's name. What did his cop instincts tell him at that point? ...That this crazy deranged crippled killer who is about to rape someone's 13 year old daughter needs to be cuffed, ...or someone connected is pissed off at me?
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Did he unlawfully enter the house after ID had been established? If he did, then there might be a problem with that. But if he didn't and he entered the house prior to ID being establish he is well with in probable cause because the call was classified as a burglary in progress and he had potential suspects on the premises.
Hell, put it up for a vote. Do you want your local police force to enter your home without your permission if potential suspects are inside and the police are on a burglary call OR do you want them not to go in at all and just stand by the front door until you are located?
Kind of a no brainer.
Think about it. What if your kids were home alone, around 13yrs old. Perhaps, your daughter getting raped, but the cops can't inside even though it's a burglary call and you have potential suspects refusing to show you ID?
No need to put anything up for a vote, ...guidelines have already been established in the Consitution & Bill of Rights.
Crowley acted stupidly because he exercised bad judgement. Something every human being does. Even Ghandi. That being said, Crowley acted with in the limits of the law. If you think Crowely arresting him was pettiness then you don't understand his reaction at all.
I understand his reaction and I think it was petty. For some testosterone induced brain farts may take on all the importance in the world, but for me, ...it's simply petty.
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I understand Crowley was there to investigate a possible breakin,
...however, that's not probable cause to enter the premises warrantless & uninvited.
actually it is, did you know that if ppl freely enter your house the cops can deem that open entry and enter into your house? there are tons of things you probably dont know about the law jag.
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actually it is, did you know that if ppl freely enter your house the cops can deem that open entry and enter into your house? there are tons of things you probably dont know about the law jag.
Crowley had no probable cause to enter Gates' home.
I think Judge Andrew Napolitano knows more about the law than you
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No need to put anything up for a vote, ...guidelines have already been established in the Consitution & Bill of Rights.
Without identification from possible suspects and the owner of the premises NOT Identified they have an obligation to enter the premises.
Putting it for a vote shows just how ridiculous the idea that they shouldn't have entered the house with possible uncooperative suspects on the premises.
I understand his reaction and I think it was petty. For some testosterone induced brain farts may take on all the importance in the world, but for me, ...it's simply petty.
It's not important at all, nor petty, just a reaction. Petty would have been shackles followed by a full body strip down search.
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Without identification from possible suspects and the owner of the premises NOT Identified they have an obligation to enter the premises.
Putting it for a vote shows just how ridiculous the idea that they shouldn't have entered the house with possible uncooperative suspects on the premises.
It's not important at all, nor petty, just a reaction. Petty would have been shackles followed by a full body strip down search.
Handcuffs are a form of shackles, ...and it wouldn't have surprised me if a full body strip search was in the works,
...until cooler, and wiser heads prevailed. The man was detained for 4 hours. 4 HOURS! That's NOT right.
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Without identification from possible suspects and the owner of the premises NOT Identified they have an obligation to enter the premises.
He did have a positive id on Gates... and they had no OBLIGATION to enter the premises without probable cause.
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actually it is, did you know that if ppl freely enter your house the cops can deem that open entry and enter into your house? there are tons of things you probably dont know about the law jag.
But, lets say 5 people are outside, the door is open, if three of the 5 are allowed to come in, but the other two are not, but do so on there own, that can be called burglary...they broke the threshold...
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He did have a positive id on Gates... and they had no OBLIGATION to enter the premises without probable cause.
So they entered after Gate's ID was establish?
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jag perhaps its different where they were but in Tx if you leave your door open while a police officer is at your door then they technically can enter your house.
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But, lets say 5 people are outside, the door is open, if three of the 5 are allowed to come in, but the other two are not, but do so on there own, that can be called burglary...they broke the threshold...
I would think they would actually have to remove something from the property to be burglary otherwise it might just be trespassing if you didnt want them in your house or on your property and had asked them to leave.
LOL i got all this from my business law professor in college always told us little stuff that nobody actually knew about the law and what to do and not to do if we ever got in trouble, was a cool dude.
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jag perhaps its different where they were but in Tx if you leave your door open while a police officer is at your door then they technically can enter your house.
In TX, you could be a good fer nothing, spoiled brat, with no business acumen to speak of, and become governor.
In TX, you can be accused of car theft while exiting your own vehicle in your own driveway,
...then shot in the chest while flat on your back in your own driveway.
In TX, you can have your money confiscated by a cop, and get thrown in jail and your children taken away from you if you protest.
Nothing good comes out of TX, ...you oughtta know that by now. ;) (except maybe Matthew McConahey)
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In TX, you could be a good fer nothing, spoiled brat, with no business acumen to speak of, and become governor.
In TX, you can be accused of car theft while exiting your own vehicle in your own driveway,
...then shot in the chest while flat on your back in your own driveway.
In TX, you can have your money confiscated by a cop, and get thrown in jail and your children taken away from you if you protest.
Nothing good comes out of TX, ...you oughtta know that by now. ;) (except maybe Matthew McConahey)
ahhhh now that was uncalled for, i understand you are a bush basher even a conservative basher but that was below the belt :-\
p.s. I cant stand matthew mcconaheys crazy ass, chicks in austin seem to go crazy for that guy though.
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So they entered after Gate's ID was establish?
That's not the case, because people were arguing that Gates showed his ID to the cop INSIDE of his house.
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That's not the case, because people were arguing that Gates showed his ID to the cop INSIDE of his house.
Anything you'd like to add to this Jag?
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Anything you'd like to add to this Jag?
Simply that he did not have probable cause to enter the home warrantless & uninvited.
And upon establishing Gates as the lawful occupant, ...Crowley should have left, not arrested him!
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Simply that he did not have probable cause to enter the home warrantless & uninvited.
And upon establishing Gates as the lawful occupant, ...Crowley should have left, not arrested him!
How much more cause do you want? You are on a burglary call and there are 2 men who refuse to identify themselves in the house. No brainer. No vote needed. And we both know what you'd want the cops to do if it was a real burglarywith 2 men in your house who refused to identify themselves and a neighbor, nice enough to look out for you, called cops because it look like it might be a robbery.
You are being unrealistic.
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How much more cause do you want?
what the law demands.
You are on a burglary call and there are 2 men who refuse to identify themselves in the house. No brainer.
But he wasn't on a burglary call. He was on a "possible" break-in, and he did NOT consult the 911 caller.
There weren't two men who refused to identify themselves. There was one man, and he did id himself.
No vote needed. And we both know what you'd want the cops to do if it was a real burglarywith 2 men in your house who refused to identify themselves and a neighbor, nice enough to look out for you, called cops because it look like it might be a robbery.
You are being unrealistic.
But it wasn't a real burglary was it? This is not about what I would want police to do, this is about what the law states police can and cannot do, ...and an innocent man who objected to police overstepping their bounds, ...and getting arrested as a result. Crowley made mistakes which he compunded with an even stupider arrest.
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what the law demands.
But he wasn't on a burglary call. He was on a "possible" break-in, and he did NOT consult the 911 caller.
There weren't two men who refused to identify themselves. There was one man, and he did id himself.
But it wasn't a real burglary was it? This is not about what I would want police to do, this is about what the law states police can and cannot do, ...and an innocent man who objected to police overstepping their bounds, ...and getting arrested as a result. Crowley made mistakes which he compunded with an even stupider arrest.
Please define how you expect the cop to consult with the 911 caller.
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Please define how you expect the cop to consult with the 911 caller.
For one, he could have asked her what she saw? Instead of simply telling her to "Stay Right There!"
Seems that's another element of his police report that isn't consistent with the facts. :-\
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For one, he could have asked her what she saw? Instead of simply telling her to "Stay Right There!"
Seems that's another element of his police report that isn't consistent with the facts. :-\
Jag, seriously, your argument is just getting stupid and sophomoric at this point, let it go. The officer HAD probable cause and Gates wasn't ID'd until Crowley entered the home.
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For one, he could have asked her what she saw? Instead of simply telling her to "Stay Right There!"
Seems that's another element of his police report that isn't consistent with the facts. :-\
And that is more important than actually catching the burglar?
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And that is more important than actually catching the burglar?
{lol} There was no burglar.
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{lol} There was no burglar.
If only the cops had your foresight ability. ::)
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Jag, seriously, your argument is just getting stupid and sophomoric at this point, let it go. The officer HAD probable cause and Gates wasn't ID'd until Crowley entered the home.
Not according to the law, ...and if he ID'ed Crowley after violating his 4th Amendment rights, compounding that violation with an arrest for disorderly conduct that violates his first Amendment rights within his own home is just plain stupid.
Or do you know more about the law that Judge Andrew Napolitano?
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If only the cops had your foresight ability. ::)
They don't need my foresight, ...just my common sense, ...and the laws of the land.
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Not according to the law, ...and if he ID'ed Crowley after violating his 4th Amendment rights, compounding that violation with an arrest for disorderly conduct that violates his first Amendment rights within his own home is just plain stupid.
Or do you know more about the law that Judge Andrew Napolitano?
Any chance you can summarize the judge's statement without me having to watch the video?
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They don't need my foresight, ...just my common sense, ...and the laws of the land.
And if you were the cop and someone called about a burglary in progress (whom actually goes through a dispatcher and not directly to the cop), what would you do? You sure like to criticize the actions of the cop , so it would be interesting to know your approach to this situation.
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I would think they would actually have to remove something from the property to be burglary otherwise it might just be trespassing if you didnt want them in your house or on your property and had asked them to leave.
LOL i got all this from my business law professor in college always told us little stuff that nobody actually knew about the law and what to do and not to do if we ever got in trouble, was a cool dude.
Trespassing tends to be, when you've told somebody not to be on your property, and they either remained on, or entered when told not . A person can enter a home w/o notice or being wanted and it can be construed as burglary, they don't have to take something, of course this is dependent on each state's laws.
For instance, in MD, a officer can respond to a Disturbance (loud stereo being played), knock on the door, the person can look out the window, officer tells them to turn it down, they can disobey, but the officer can not come in, unless invited, or a search warrant. Which probably could have been Gates' case...
*I'm am not a attorney
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what the law demands.
Were they with in the law to enter the house? YES based on probable cause
But he wasn't on a burglary call. He was on a "possible" break-in, and he did NOT consult the 911 caller.
There weren't two men who refused to identify themselves. There was one man, and he did id himself.
Doesn't matter. How police approach any situation initially is based on the call. Hence, they legitimately need to establish a crime isn't being committed.
But it wasn't a real burglary was it?
That wasn't found out until ID was establish, until then all bets are off.
This is not about what I would want police to do, this is about what the law states police can and cannot do,
they didn't break the law by entering his house becuase probable cause had already been establish.
...and an innocent man who objected to police overstepping their bounds,
No, a fool who acted a fool and now looks like a fool.
Again, you cite the law which wasn't broken here. You claim there was no probable cause and your argument falls apart.
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Trespassing tends to be, when you've told somebody not to be on your property, and they either remained on, or entered when told not . A person can enter a home w/o notice or being wanted and it can be construed as burglary, they don't have to take something, of course this is dependent on each state's laws.
For instance, in MD, a officer can respond to a Disturbance (loud stereo being played), knock on the door, the person can look out the window, officer tells them to turn it down, they can disobey, but the officer can not come in, unless invited, or a search warrant. Which probably could have been Gates' case...
*I'm am not a attorney
Ya i think in tx that probably would be breaking and entering instead of burglary but i understand what your saying. Its really interesting what things ppl dont know about that is technically lawfully inviting police into your house. LOL my business law professor always told us so when we had parties we knew somewhat not to do if the police ever showed up...worked very well too, saved us from getting a contributing to minors and instead just a host of other lesser charges...
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You cant enter someones home without a warrant unless there are exigent circumstances. Exigent circumstances include hot pursuit of a fleeing felon, responding to an emergency ( such as a felony in progress) or when there is readily destructable evidence inside the home that will be destroyed by the time a warrant is obtained.
For morons like Jag who know absolutely nothing about law and like to post on this website while throwing out terms like "probable cause"and the "4th amendment", a word of advice; Dont form your opinions based on what someone on cable news said and what you, in your narrow minded fantasy world would like to believe.
The officer was responding to a felony in progress. He had probable cause from the outset-- He had a tip that someone matching Gates description was trying to gain entry into the home. Probable cause is not the issue here at all. All probable cause means is a good faith belief that "more likely than not" criminal activity is afoot. The cop had every right to ask for identification and Gates was supposed to lawfully comply with the officers request. Instead, Gates went apeshit, acted inappropriately and gave the officer more reason to believe criminal activity was going on.
The 4th amendment only protects people from UNREASONABLE searches and seizures. Based on the facts here, nothing the cop did was unreasonable. Quite the opposite. Gates was unreasonable, caused a scene and basically dared the cop to arrest him.
Hope this helps.
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You cant enter someones home without a warrant unless there are exigent circumstances. Exigent circumstances include hot pursuit of a fleeing felon, responding to an emergency ( such as a felony in progress) or when there is readily destructable evidence inside the home that will be destroyed by the time a warrant is obtained.
For morons like Jag who know absolutely nothing about law and like to post on this website while throwing out terms like "probable cause"and the "4th amendment", a word of advice; Dont form your opinions based on what someone on cable news said and what you, in your narrow minded fantasy world would like to believe.
The officer was responding to a felony in progress. He had probable cause from the outset-- He had a tip that someone matching Gates description was trying to gain entry into the home. Probable cause is not the issue here at all. All probable cause means is a good faith belief that "more likely than not" criminal activity is afoot. The cop had every right to ask for identification and Gates was supposed to lawfully comply with the officers request. Instead, Gates went apeshit, acted inappropriately and gave the officer more reason to believe criminal activity was going on.
The 4th amendment only protects people from UNREASONABLE searches and seizures. Based on the facts here, nothing the cop did was unreasonable. Quite the opposite. Gates was unreasonable, caused a scene and basically dared the cop to arrest him.
Hope this helps.
It does seem like she's getting her information from a bias source. Here's another question, if what the cop did was deemed 'illegal' ::) , why wasn't he charged in this case?
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lol illegal?
What crime should he be charged with?
Cops cannot be sued or charged criminally while doing performing their duties in good faith. Basically that means unless they themselves are breaking the law or use excessive force etc, there is no "illegal" activity. They are immune from being sued or tried criminally absent some outrageous behavior. If that weren't the case, how many people would even become cops?
Making mistakes comes with the job, any job for that matter. I am not a big fan of the police by any stretch, but everyone needs to calm down with the misinformed rhetoric.
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lol illegal?
What crime should he be charged with?
Cops cannot be sued or charged criminally while doing performing their duties in good faith. Basically that means unless they themselves are breaking the law or use excessive force etc, there is no "illegal" activity. They are immune from being sued or tried criminally absent some outrageous behavior. If that weren't the case, how many people would even become cops?
Making mistakes comes with the job, any job for that matter. I am not a big fan of the police by any stretch, but everyone needs to calm down with the misinformed rhetoric.
I'm in agreement with you. Jag's whole premise is that what the cop did was 'illegal', thus the constant link to the judge Napilatano vid. Without that, she doesn't even have an argument.
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I hear you- She doesn't have an argument period and usually never does. :-X
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You cant enter someones home without a warrant unless there are exigent circumstances. Exigent circumstances include hot pursuit of a fleeing felon, responding to an emergency ( such as a felony in progress) or when there is readily destructable evidence inside the home that will be destroyed by the time a warrant is obtained.
BINGO!
For morons like Jag who know absolutely nothing about law and like to post on this website while throwing out terms like "probable cause"and the "4th amendment", a word of advice; Dont form your opinions based on what someone on cable news said and what you, in your narrow minded fantasy world would like to believe.
But I'm not basing my opinion on what some guy on cable news says. I'm basing my opinion on my interpretation of the law. The fact that a judge commenting on cable news happens to be of the same opinion simply validates my own.
The officer was responding to a felony in progress. He had probable cause from the outset-- He had a tip that someone matching Gates description was trying to gain entry into the home. Probable cause is not the issue here at all. All probable cause means is a good faith belief that "more likely than not" criminal activity is afoot. The cop had every right to ask for identification and Gates was supposed to lawfully comply with the officers request. Instead, Gates went apeshit, acted inappropriately and gave the officer more reason to believe criminal activity was going on.
But the officer was not responding to a felony in progress, ...he was responding to a "possible" breakin. He also was not given a description that matched Gates at all. His dispatcher said "race unknown" ..."possible hispanic"
The 4th amendment only protects people from UNREASONABLE searches and seizures. Based on the facts here, nothing the cop did was unreasonable. Quite the opposite. Gates was unreasonable, caused a scene and basically dared the cop to arrest him.
Hope this helps.
After establishing Gates as the lawful occupant not doing anything illegal, after pissing an innocent man off in his own home, arresting him could be considered highly unreasonable.
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A break in is a burglary which is a felony in all 50 states. This was a break in into someones home, which increases the likelihood of physical danger to any occupant inside the home.
A break in- in progress means there is a felony in progress.
A felony in progress can be characterized as an exigent circumstance which doesn't require a warrant.
If the cop had taken it easy and someone had been killed or the suspects got away, what would you say then? That the cop was incompetent? More than likely because the alleged victim here was black, you would argue the cop was wrong in some way.
Would you really require police investigating felonies in progress to make sure they waited outside for a search warrant before entering someones home?
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A break in is a burglary which is a felony in all 50 states. This was a break in into someones home, which increases the likelihood of physical danger to any occupant inside the home.
There was no break-in
A break in- in progress means there is a felony in progress.
But a suspected break-in means there may NOT be a break in taking place. That's why you gather facts.
A felony in progress can be characterized as an exigent circumstance which doesn't require a warrant.
But a suspected break-in cannot be considered exigent circumstances, and does require a warrant, ...especially in the absence of a witness to an actual crime.
If the cop had taken it easy and someone had been killed or the suspects got away, what would you say then? That the cop was incompetent? More than likely because the alleged victim here was black, you would argue the cop was wrong in some way.
Would you really require police investigating felonies in progress to make sure they waited outside for a search warrant before entering someones home?
I would expect the cop to talk to the 911 caller and find out what the heck is going on, and I would expect him to follow the law. Even if he didn't follow the law to a T... dot every 'i' or cross every 't', I'd probably not make an issue out it, ...however, ...were I to be arrested in my own home, even after establishing that I'm the lawful occupant, and no crime was in progress, ...that would piss me off to no end, ...and you better believe I would make a stink about it, as well as every i not dotted and every t not crossed. Crowley made a stupid arrest, and now he has to be accountable for all his actions, as well as what appears to be a falsified police report.
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There was no break-in
That had yet to be established.
But a suspected break-in means there may NOT be a break in taking place. That's why you gather facts.
And Gates was blocking that process.
But a suspected break-in cannot be considered exigent circumstances, and does require a warrant, ...especially in the absence of a witness to an actual crime
If Crowley violated the law he should be charge with a crime. He did nothing but his job.
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Jag, much like Obama, defends the indefensible. As usual.
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That had yet to be established.
And Gates was blocking that process.
If Crowley violated the law he should be charge with a crime. He did nothing but his job.
What more needs to be said?
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There is no use trying to explain this stuff to her. She has her head in the sand as usual.
It seems that when investigating a felony in progress, the police ought to take a hands off approach and "gather facts" without talking to anyone or doing anything.
Being a Monday morning quarterback is wonderful because you get to make arm chair judgements based on events which already took place.
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That had yet to be established.
That's why you talk to the caller who was on the scene, and you make damned sure a crime is taking place.
And Gates was blocking that process.
Then one would assume "obstruction of justice charges would be more in order than disorderly conduct no?
If Crowley violated the law he should be charge with a crime. He did nothing but his job.
What he violated were Gates civil rights and the federal constitution.
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That's why you talk to the caller who was on the scene, and you make damned sure a crime is taking place.
Not when you have uncooperative suspects in front of you.
Then one would assume "obstruction of justice charges would be more in order than disorderly conduct no?
Perhaps.
What he violated were Gates civil rights and the federal constitution.
Not at all because of probable cause. Without probable cuase under the way you interpret things, this country would be a high crime zone.
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There is no use trying to explain this stuff to her. She has her head in the sand as usual.
It seems that when investigating a felony in progress, the police ought to take a hands off approach and "gather facts" without talking to anyone or doing anything.
That's my point exactly... he should have spoken with the 911 caller who was present on the scene. Had he done so, hemight have taken a completely different approach to the situation. He did not. He even went so far as to fabricate a discussion with the caller, ...one in which he swore false evidence to bolster his case. Up until his arrest, Gates claimed Crowley was a rogue. After his arrest, it became an issue of race. The moral of this story is... don't fuck up, ...and if you do, don't try to cover up your mistake when faced by an adamant man, ...cause you'll make even bigger stupider mistakes in the process.
I for one am eagerly awaiting an answer about his seemingly falsified police report, wherein he alleges racial profiling by the 911 caller.
Being a Monday morning quarterback is wonderful because you get to make arm chair judgements based on events which already took place.
I knew if this thread went on long enough, we'd find something upon which we both agree. :D
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Okay, for the last time. If a police officer is responding to a burglary at a residence he does not need a warrant or permission to enter the residence. Hope that helps.
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jag perhaps its different where they were but in Tx if you leave your door open while a police officer is at your door then they technically can enter your house.
It is the same in other states. I had a party in my home state and there was a disturbance OUTSIDE my house involving some of my guests. The officers asked me if anyone was left in the house (I thought there wasn't) and they followed me in to look, WITHOUT my permission. Was it a big deal? No. They wanted to make sure nobody was injured, if there were people in the house.
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Okay, for the last time. If a police officer is responding to a burglary at a residence he does not need a warrant or permission to enter the residence. Hope that helps.
She won't recover.
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Not when you have uncooperative suspects in front of you.
Especially when you have an uncooperative suspect who claims to be the resident.
You turn to the caller and ask why they believe this to be a break-in and what prompted them to call 911 in the first place? Had he done that, ...he might have taken a different approach to the situation, and we might not have seen Gates so agitated, and we might not have seen accusations of being a rogue levelled.
It's just like splinterhands said "If you're a bad guy, the police are out to get you", ...but when one adopts that approach with someone who is merely a "suspect" and not a proven perpetrator of a crime, ...you cast too wide a net and you're bound to bring up innocent people, ...and when you do... they're going to bitch... loudly! The squeaky cleaner they are, ...the louder they yell.
It's one thing if Gates identity had not yet been established. Then I can understand luring his ass out onto public property in order to effect an arrest, until you can establish identity, ...but Gates was already established as the legal occupant when he made the arrest. He shouldn't have been arrested
Not at all because of probable cause. Without probable cuase under the way you interpret things, this country would be a high crime zone.
Don't kid yourself, ...your country is a high crime zone! ::)
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Okay, for the last time. If a police officer is responding to a burglary at a residence he does not need a warrant or permission to enter the residence. Hope that helps.
But he was not responding to a burglary at the residence, ...and was not even called to the premises by the resident. Are you saying that I can make an anonymous call to the police describing a guy entering your own house, and ask them to send a car to check it out, ...that the police would have the right to enter your home against your will absent an invitation and a search warrant?
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But he was not responding to a burglary at the residence, ...and was not even called to the premises by the resident. Are you saying that I can make an anonymous call to the police describing a guy entering your own house, and ask them to send a car to check it out, ...that the police would have the right to enter your home against your will absent an invitation and a search warrant?
yes
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It is the same in other states. I had a party in my home state and there was a disturbance OUTSIDE my house involving some of my guests. The officers asked me if anyone was left in the house (I thought there wasn't) and they followed me in to look, WITHOUT my permission. Was it a big deal? No. They wanted to make sure nobody was injured, if there were people in the house.
It was no big deal to you, ...although I'm sure that had you made a big deal out of it, ...you would have realized they could not do that. In any event, yours might be a gray area considering you had a party and there was an incident involving your guests. That wasn't the case with Gates. With Gates, ...there was no disturbance or incident, other than an anonymous caller reporting what she considered to be possibly suspicious activity.
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There was no break-in
But a suspected break-in means there may NOT be a break in taking place. That's why you gather facts.
But a suspected break-in cannot be considered exigent circumstances, and does require a warrant, ...especially in the absence of a witness to an actual crime.
I would expect the cop to talk to the 911 caller and find out what the heck is going on, and I would expect him to follow the law. Even if he didn't follow the law to a T... dot every 'i' or cross every 't', I'd probably not make an issue out it, ...however, ...were I to be arrested in my own home, even after establishing that I'm the lawful occupant, and no crime was in progress, ...that would piss me off to no end, ...and you better believe I would make a stink about it, as well as every i not dotted and every t not crossed. Crowley made a stupid arrest, and now he has to be accountable for all his actions, as well as what appears to be a falsified police report.
Officers went to a house during a homicide investigation that had occurred nearby and saw what appeared to them to be a recent burglary, which is not merely a property crime [because burglaries happen when people are at home and they become home invasion robberies]. This was an emergency that justified their entry on its own and because of the mere potential it might have been related to the homicide. State v. Lemieux, 726 N.W.2d 783 (Minn. January 18, 2007)
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yes
Does that describe a free country... or a military police state?
I guess your constitution is just a goddamned piece of paper afterall huh? Too bad it wasn't a little softer tho,
...then cops across the country could use it to wipe their asses as literally as they do figuratively.
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But he was not responding to a burglary at the residence, ...and was not even called to the premises by the resident. Are you saying that I can make an anonymous call to the police describing a guy entering your own house, and ask them to send a car to check it out, ...that the police would have the right to enter your home against your will absent an invitation and a search warrant?
Suspected crime. He has the responsibility to investigate because you know damn well some race baiter like you would have screamed racism if he was hurt or dead in there had an actual home invasion taken place.
It was no big deal to you, ...although I'm sure that had you made a big deal out of it, ...you would have realized they could not do that. In any event, yours might be a gray area considering you had a party and there was an incident involving your guests. That wasn't the case with Gates. With Gates, ...there was no disturbance or incident, other than an anonymous caller reporting what she considered to be possibly suspicious activity.
Again, you're not getting it. Crowley had to investigate it. Police investigate 911 calls until they can "dispo" the call. In this case Gates created a disturbance after the investigation took place. Get over it already.
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Officers went to a house during a homicide investigation that had occurred nearby and saw what appeared to them to be a recent burglary, which is not merely a property crime [because burglaries happen when people are at home and they become home invasion robberies]. This was an emergency that justified their entry on its own and because of the mere potential it might have been related to the homicide. State v. Lemieux, 726 N.W.2d 783 (Minn. January 18, 2007)
That's my point. Unless the officer witnesses it himself, ...or witnesses, signs of a breakin, hears screaming, THAT is probable cause. not some anonymous caller who herself makes it clear she is unsure of what she's seeing, could be nothing at all, and calling on behalf of someone else. Apples and Oranges. The two scenarios are not comparable.
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I would expect the cop to talk to the 911 caller and find out what the heck is going on, and I would expect him to follow the law.
While I think you're right about the fact that Gates should not have been arrested for excercising his first amendment rights, you're dead wrong about the probable cause. Probable cause requires only a reasonable belief by the officer that something is amiss.
And, it's measured from the officer's point of view, not your 20/20 hindsight. The officer has to go by the information provided by the dispatcher. And Judge Napolitano did not take a position on the probable cause. He was providing the hypothetical arguments that both sides will espouse and made it very clear that a jury would have to decide.
If my neighbor sees me take a couple of steps into my house, then collapse on the floor, and my door swings shut, I certainly hope the cop isn't going to spend 10 minutes interviewing the neighbor.
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Suspected crime. He has the responsibility to investigate because you know damn well some race baiter like you would have screamed racism if he was hurt or dead in there had an actual home invasion taken place.
Now you're just being an ass. You have alot of nerve calling me a race baiter. I've always maintained Crowley's actions were stupid and based on ego, testosterone, and hubris. Yet you want to lump me in with race baiters. You just can't deal with the idea that someone isn't all too eager to kiss police ass, and might actually question their authority to take the liberties they do daily.
I can smell a cop wannabe a mile away, and if or when you make the force, ...I wouldn't be advocating kissing your ass then either. Deal with it.
Again, you're not getting it. Crowley had to investigate it. Police investigate 911 calls until they can "dispo" the call. In this case Gates created a disturbance after the investigation took place. Get over it already.
no, it's you who is not getting. Crowley had to investigate it, Gates had no obligation to assist him, and upon discovering it was Gates home and there was no crime in progress, Crowley should have gotten the hell out. Yes, Gates created the disturbance after the investigation took place, because he was arrested. Had he not done something so stupid as to arrest the man for being justifiably pissed off, none of this would be a topic for discussion. Crowley fucked up, ...and just as Gates promised, he hasn't heard the end of it, ...and neither have you.
I guarantee you Crowley has alot of explaining to do, ...like how false information got into his police report. Info that only lends credibility to Gates, and his version of events. He will have to answer for that. This case has received far too much attention for it to go away unanswered. He will have to answer that. I for one am eagerly awaiting his answer too. :D
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While I think you're right about the fact that Gates should not have been arrested for excercising his first amendment rights, you're dead wrong about the probable cause. Probable cause requires only a reasonable belief by the officer that something is amiss.
And, it's measured from the officer's point of view, not your 20/20 hindsight. The officer has to go by the information provided by the dispatcher. And Judge Napolitano did not take a position on the probable cause. He was providing the hypothetical arguments that both sides will espouse and made it very clear that a jury would have to decide.
If my neighbor sees me take a couple of steps into my house, then collapse on the floor, and my door swings shut, I certainly hope the cop isn't going to spend 10 minutes interviewing the neighbor.
I completely understand what you're saying, ...however, again we're talking too different scenarios. what you describe could be considered reasonable in that the neighbor is witnessing you collapse. Your life could very well be in danger. I would hope they would send an ambulance before they called for squad cars. However, if upon arrival, they discover, you are not in any danger, and you order them out of your house, ...one would expect them to leave, not arrest you for being pissed off at their presence.
You ever taken a 20 hr flight from China, ...it's a long ass ride. People have a tendency to be a bit cranky afterwards
As for Gates, ...Crowley might well have gotten away with entering the premises without a warrant or invitation,
...but arresting Gates simply compounded the situation and caused a giant collective WTF? He should have simply walked away, swallowed his pride and given the old man an apology. Stubborn pride has often been the downfall of many a man.
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Especially when you have an uncooperative suspect who claims to be the resident.
A competent cop takes claims lightly.
You turn to the caller and ask why they believe this to be a break-in and what prompted them to call 911 in the first place? Had he done that, ...he might have taken a different approach to the situation, and we might not have seen Gates so agitated, and we might not have seen accusations of being a rogue levelled.
So all of a sudden you are a cop now? ::)
If thing were done your way there would be run away crime because the police would be powerless to do stuff because jack ass fools like Gates was could just claim stuff.
It's just like splinterhands said "If you're a bad guy, the police are out to get you", ...but when one adopts that approach with someone who is merely a "suspect" and not a proven perpetrator of a crime, ...you cast too wide a net and you're bound to bring up innocent people, ...and when you do... they're going to bitch... loudly! The squeaky cleaner they are, ...the louder they yell.
You catch more criminals that way. Their bitching is their problem. Crowley hadn't determine whether or not Gates was a criminal yet and Gates being the fool he is, wasn't helping matters.
It's one thing if Gates identity had not yet been established. Then I can understand luring his ass out onto public property in order to effect an arrest, until you can establish identity, ...but Gates was already established as the legal occupant when he made the arrest. He shouldn't have been arrested
He wasn't arrested for B and E. did you forget that again? He was arrested for disturbing the peace. Only a complete jackass could get arrested for that on their own property.
Don't kid yourself, ...your country is a high crime zone! ::)
Yeah to those who subject themselves to the news every day. But then again we didn't give the world "Loverboy"
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I completely understand what you're saying, ...however, again we're talking too different scenarios. what you describe could be considered reasonable in that the neighbor is witnessing you collapse. Your life could very well be in danger. I would hope they would send an ambulance before they called for squad cars. However, if upon arrival, they discover, you are not in any danger, and you order them out of your house, ...one would expect them to leave, not arrest you for being pissed off at their presence.
You ever taken a 20 hr flight from China, ...it's a long ass ride. People have a tendency to be a bit cranky afterwards
As for Gates, ...Crowley might well have gotten away with entering the premises without a warrant or invitation,
...but arresting Gates simply compounded the situation and caused a giant collective WTF? He should have simply walked away, swallowed his pride and given the old man an apology. Stubborn pride has often been the downfall of many a man.
A 20 hour flight is no excuse for being a idiot. Gates needs to take responsibility for his foolish actions and pathetic example he just set for anyone who would identify with him.
Based on just about everything you said regarding this, its apparent to me that although you have dated a few cops as you claim, you have no clue how the real world works in this case, and especially how it works in America.
Crowley arrested Gates for disturbing the peace. That's the only thing the cop did in question. And if you say you'd rather the cops not aggressively question an intruder in your house who refused to show ID then you'd just be lying.
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Now you're just being an ass. You have alot of nerve calling me a race baiter. I've always maintained Crowley's actions were stupid and based on ego, testosterone, and hubris. Yet you want to lump me in with race baiters. You just can't deal with the idea that someone isn't all too eager to kiss police ass, and might actually question their authority to take the liberties they do daily.
I can smell a cop wannabe a mile away, and if or when you make the force, ...I wouldn't be advocating kissing your ass then either. Deal with it.
no, it's you who is not getting. Crowley had to investigate it, Gates had no obligation to assist him, and upon discovering it was Gates home and there was no crime in progress, Crowley should have gotten the hell out. Yes, Gates created the disturbance after the investigation took place, because he was arrested. Had he not done something so stupid as to arrest the man for being justifiably pissed off, none of this would be a topic for discussion. Crowley fucked up, ...and just as Gates promised, he hasn't heard the end of it, ...and neither have you.
I guarantee you Crowley has alot of explaining to do, ...like how false information got into his police report. Info that only lends credibility to Gates, and his version of events. He will have to answer for that. This case has received far too much attention for it to go away unanswered. He will have to answer that. I for one am eagerly awaiting his answer too. :D
Jag, you bring race into everything. Here's an idea, just stop mentioning it. I guarantee if this guy was white we would not see your presence here in such volume. Your past experience of being stopped, which you claimed was due to race, and likely other situations that you viewed as racist have clouded your judgment on this issue. Crowley did his job. In addition to making this about race, you've also shown yourself to be sexist saying men can't be clear headed.
Obviously you don't know anything about law enforcement. He did not need permission or a warrant to enter the home. If you can't understand that then there is no helping you. Crowley is hearing about it nonstop because Gates is black and knows Obama. You think you can do whatever you want in this world but there are rules and people have to follow them, that includes Gates.
Read the link http://www.slate.com/id/2223379/ Knowing you, you will ignore it or say the arrest didn't stick (which is mentioned in the link) but it lays everything out there for you Jag.
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That's my point. Unless the officer witnesses it himself, ...or witnesses, signs of a breakin, hears screaming, THAT is probable cause. not some anonymous caller who herself makes it clear she is unsure of what she's seeing, could be nothing at all, and calling on behalf of someone else. Apples and Oranges. The two scenarios are not comparable.
LOLOL ok this explains a lot of your reasoning. That is not probable cause- not as defined by the Supreme Court, by the 4th amednment or by anyone else in America. Probable cause does not require WITNESSING anything, hearing SCREAMING, or any of that crap. Probable cause means more likely then not there is a good faith belief by the officer that criminal activity is taking place. Its like 51% yes versus 49% no. What you are suggesting is definite cause, which any law enforcement type will tell you almost never happens. If police used the jaguar probable cause model, this country would be in complete anarchy and no arrests would ever be made.
This is almost comical, if it were not so mind numbingly stupid. Jag, take some time and invest in some books about criminal law and procedure. Getting your information from law and order isn't cutting it.
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LOLOL ok this explains a lot of your reasoning. That is not probable cause- not as defined by the Supreme Court, by the 4th amednment or by anyone else in America. Probable cause does not require WITNESSING anything, hearing SCREAMING, or any of that crap. Probable cause means more likely then not there is a good faith belief by the officer that criminal activity is taking place. Its like 51% yes versus 49% no. What you are suggesting is definite cause, which any law enforcement type will tell you almost never happens. If police used the jaguar probable cause model, this country would be in complete anarchy and no arrests would ever be made.
This is almost comical, if it were not so mind numbingly stupid. Jag, take some time and invest in some books about criminal law and procedure. Getting your information from law and order isn't cutting it.
Exactly. She thinks she's a cop and constitutional lawyer.
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A competent cop takes claims lightly.
So all of a sudden you are a cop now? ::)
If thing were done your way there would be run away crime because the police would be powerless to do stuff because jack ass fools like Gates was could just claim stuff.
You catch more criminals that way. Their bitching is their problem. Crowley hadn't determine whether or not Gates was a criminal yet and Gates being the fool he is, wasn't helping matters.
He wasn't arrested for B and E. did you forget that again? He was arrested for disturbing the peace. Only a complete jackass could get arrested for that on their own property.
Only a jackass arrests a man for disorderly conduct on his own property. :P
Yeah to those who subject themselves to the news every day. But then again we didn't give the world "Loverboy"
:o :o :o :o Now THAT was just plain outright mean, and uncalled for! >:(
And if you dare to so much as even mention Platinum Blond or Corey Hart, ...I'll be forced to shoot you.
There'd be no question it'd be considered justifiable homicide in the face of cruel & unusual punishment! >:(
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:o :o :o :o Now THAT was just plain outright mean, and uncalled for! >:(
And if you dare to so much as even mention Platinum Blond or Corey Hart, ...I'll be forced to shoot you.
There'd be no question it'd be considered justifiable homicide in the face of cruel & unusual punishment! >:(
;D
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Jag, you bring race into everything.
I do not!
Here's an idea, just stop mentioning it. I guarantee if this guy was white we would not see your presence here in such volume.
Oh that's just priceless.! {lol}
Actually, I would still feel the same way. I doubt you would tho.
Your past experience of being stopped, which you claimed was due to race, and likely other situations that you viewed as racist have clouded your judgment on this issue.
I've never been stopped because of my race that I'm aware of, ...but I have been asked stupid inappropriate questions because of it. What you refer to as having clouded my judgement, could in fact be what most intelligrnt people refer to as experience, ...something that often serves to pin point and clarify ones perspective on a situation.
Crowley did his job. In addition to making this about race, you've also shown yourself to be sexist saying men can't be clear headed.
Crowley did his job, ...STUPIDLY!. Crowley made it about race when alleging something he was not told.
As for men not being clear headed, ...I think you make a far better case for that than any charge I could ever bring.
Obviously you don't know anything about law enforcement. He did not need permission or a warrant to enter the home. If you can't understand that then there is no helping you. Crowley is hearing about it nonstop because Gates is black and knows Obama. You think you can do whatever you want in this world but there are rules and people have to follow them, that includes Gates.
Read the link http://www.slate.com/id/2223379/ Knowing you, you will ignore it or say the arrest didn't stick (which is mentioned in the link) but it lays everything out there for you Jag.
...that includes Crowley too, ...and when pressed... he had better make sure all his "i's" have been dotted, and all his "t's" have been crossed. So far, ...that doesn't appear to be the case.
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Exactly. She thinks she's a cop and constitutional lawyer.
No, ...but I have played one on TV, ...and I did stay at a Holiday inn Express once... doesn't that count? :-\
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No, ...but I have played one on TV, ...and I did stay at a Holiday inn Express once... doesn't that count? :-\
Not in real life. But had you stayed at a motel 6 in Barstow, California and played cop who's playing a cop on a TV show in a foreign film about cops in the US produced by a food critic it wold totally count.
I applaud the cops actions up to establishing ID and they were with the law. I don't applaud the arrest which was also with in the law.
there is nothing that Gates did but embarrass himself.
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Not in real life. But had you stayed at a motel 6 in Barstow, California and played cop who's playing a cop on a TV show in a foreign film about cops in the US produced by a food critic it wold totally count.
Well we can just forget that right now, ...I wouldn't be caught dead in Barstow. :P
I applaud the cops actions up to establishing ID and they were with the law. I don't applaud the arrest which was also with in the law.
Good Grief! So what the heck are we arguing about? :D
there is nothing that Gates did but embarrass himself.
That remains to be seen, afterall, ...Anger has it's place. ;)
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Well we can just forget that right now, ...I wouldn't be caught dead in Barstow. :P
Good Grief! So what the heck are we arguing about? :D
That remains to be seen, afterall, ...Anger has it's place. ;)
I think he lost his cool. Anger doesn't have it's place when it's not controlled. Not in any circumstance. Gates set a bad example for people to follow.
We are arguing about probable cause. Did Crowley have probable cause to enter Gate's home? Lets see:
- Burglary call in progress
- 2 potential suspects
- Both suspects refusing to cooperate and show ID
Actually thinking about it, they are lucking Crowley didn't subdue them.
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I think he lost his cool. Anger doesn't have it's place when it's not controlled. Not in any circumstance. Gates set a bad example for people to follow.
We are arguing about probable cause. Did Crowley have probable cause to enter Gate's home? Lets see:
- Burglary call in progress
- 2 potential suspects
- Both suspects refusing to cooperate and show ID
Actually thinking about it, they are lucking Crowley didn't subdue them.
And who are the two suspects refusing to show ID?
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Does that describe a free country... or a military police state?
I guess your constitution is just a goddamned piece of paper afterall huh? Too bad it wasn't a little softer tho,
...then cops across the country could use it to wipe their asses as literally as they do figuratively.
Regardless of how you view our country, it doesn't change the fact that everything the cop did was legal and Gates was the one who escalated this mess until he was arrested.
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Regardless of how you view our country, it doesn't change the fact that everything the cop did was legal and Gates was the one who escalated this mess until he was arrested.
And now the charges against Gates have been dropped, ...but Crowley still has a few questions he needs to clear up.
That's what we call a STUPID arrest!
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And who are the two suspects refusing to show ID?
Unknown until ID is provided.
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And now the charges against Gates have been dropped, ...but Crowley still has a few questions he needs to clear up.
That's what we call a STUPID arrest!
Charges gets dropped all the time. Doesn't negate someone's guilt if this happens.
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Unknown until ID is provided.
You didn't answer my question. Who are the two unknown suspects you referenced who refused to show ID?
I think he lost his cool. Anger doesn't have it's place when it's not controlled. Not in any circumstance. Gates set a bad example for people to follow.
We are arguing about probable cause. Did Crowley have probable cause to enter Gate's home? Lets see:
- Burglary call in progress
- 2 potential suspects
- Both suspects refusing to cooperate and show ID
Actually thinking about it, they are lucking Crowley didn't subdue them.
Oh that would have been absolutely priceless!!! I could just see the headlines now:
"Cop assaults distinguished Professor in his own home"
oh ya, ...that would go down well...NOT! You think this is controversial, ...that would be CONTROVERSY10
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You didn't answer my question. Who are the two unknown suspects you referenced who refused to show ID?
Exactly, until ID is provided they could be anyone
Oh that would have been absolutely priceless!!! I could just see the headlines now:
"Cop assaults distinguished Professor in his own home"
oh ya, ...that would go down well...NOT! You think this is controversial, ...that would be CONTROVERSY10
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Yeah, it would have been unfortunate, but likely with in protocol for police to that.
Point is, Gates brought his arrest on himself.
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Exactly, until ID is provided they could be anyone
Yeah, it would have been unfortunate, but likely with in protocol for police to that.
Point is, Gates brought his arrest on himself.
Way to completely avoid answering my question again OzMo.
You sate there were two suspects who BOTH refused to show id to Crowley.
We know gates was a suspect who did show his id. My question to you is who is this other suspect who refused to show id to crowley? ...and if that were indeed the case, how is it he was no arrested for his refusal to show id? Don't avoid the question, answer it.
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Way to completely avoid answering my question again OzMo.
You sate there were two suspects who BOTH refused to show id to Crowley.
We know gates was a suspect who did show his id. My question to you is who is this other suspect who refused to show id to crowley? ...and if that were indeed the case, how is it he was no arrested for his refusal to show id? Don't avoid the question, answer it.
Then I don't understand your question.
The arrest wasn't based on refusal to show ID, the arrest was made based on Gates disturbing the peace. So I don't know where you are trying to go with this.
Because of the type of call, ID needed to be established less they take further action.
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Then I don't understand your question.
The arrest wasn't based on refusal to show ID, the arrest was made based on Gates disturbing the peace. So I don't know where you are trying to go with this.
Because of the type of call, ID needed to be established less they take further action.
I'm not trying to go anywhere with this, other than to clarify the statement you made earlier in your attempt to boost Crowley's case. the one wherein you said that "BOTH suspects refused to show id."
We already know this is a falsehood because Gates did show his id, ...he showed 2 forms of it.
What I want to know is who is this 2nd suspect who refused to show Crowley his id?
Are you referring to Gates' chauffeur? ...a man who had long since left the scene after helping Gates into his home?
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I'm not trying to go anywhere with this, other than to clarify the statement you made earlier in your attempt to boost Crowley's case. the one wherein you said that "BOTH suspects refused to show id."
We already know this is a falsehood because Gates did show his id, ...he showed 2 forms of it.
What I want to know is who is this 2nd suspect who refused to show Crowley his id?
Are you referring to Gates' chauffeur? ...a man who had long since left the scene after helping Gates into his home?
So the first time Crowley asked for ID Gates readily showed it? ::)
Try again Jaggy.
Had Gates just done that, this would have never been a story.
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So the first time Crowley asked for ID Gates readily showed it? ::)
Try again Jaggy.
Had Gates just done that, this would have never been a story.
thats apparently not the way blacks are taught to act by their parents. they are taught to go about their business and act is if the police have no authority to tell them anything. Right jag?
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thats apparently not the way blacks are taught to act by their parents. they are taught to go about their business and act is if the police have no authority to tell them anything. Right jag?
I wont speak about all black people but most that I have dealt with have that attitude, especially those from lower socioeconomic areas. Things escalate when someone doesn't do what you ask them to nicely. The general rule of thumb for policing is to "ask" someone to do something, "tell" them to, and then "make" them do it. Unfortunately with some people it ALWAYS gets to that third step.
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I wont speak about all black people but most that I have dealt with have that attitude, especially those from lower socioeconomic areas. Things escalate when someone doesn't do what you ask them to nicely. The general rule of thumb for policing is to "ask" someone to do something, "tell" them to, and then "make" them do it. Unfortunately with some people it ALWAYS gets to that third step.
exactly when if you were taught right it would never get passed the first step. If dealt with a hole cops before but I still did what they asked me to do the first time.
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exactly when if you were taught right it would never get passed the first step. If dealt with a hole cops before but I still did what they asked me to do the first time.
There are jerk officers, believe me I have dealt with a few but you just cooperate and act polite and in the end if you didn't do anything wrong then you should be going about your business. Just remember that when you hear stories about officers being dicks for no reason, chances are SOMETHING else happened. There are assholes on the job but often douchebag citizens (snotty elites, college kids, ghetto thugs) cause the interaction to go south.
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So the first time Crowley asked for ID Gates readily showed it? ::)
Try again Jaggy.
Had Gates just done that, this would have never been a story.
How much time lapsed between the 911 call and Gates' arrest?
Gates was not arrested for failure to show ID. He was arrested for disorderly conduct AFTER it had already been established he was the lawful occupant. He had every right to be pissed off on his own property.
Had he not been arrested, this would never have been a story.
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thats apparently not the way blacks are taught to act by their parents. they are taught to go about their business and act is if the police have no authority to tell them anything. Right jag?
Gates is a senior citizen. It's reasonable to say that whatever his parents may or may not have taught him,
...he was now reacting like a prominent citizen outraged. Apparently, someone forgot to tell him he was Black. :-\
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There are jerk officers, believe me I have dealt with a few but you just cooperate and act polite and in the end if you didn't do anything wrong then you should be going about your business. Just remember that when you hear stories about officers being dicks for no reason, chances are SOMETHING else happened. There are assholes on the job but often douchebag citizens (snotty elites, college kids, ghetto thugs) cause the interaction to go south.
Clearly, that is not always the case.
Sometimes even those doing their civic duties by calling in reports are subjected to being treated like criminals by cops.
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Clearly, that is not always the case.
Sometimes even those doing their civic duties by calling in reports are subjected to being treated like criminals by cops.
Gates didn't go about his business, clearly.
Can you give an example for your second statement?
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How much time lapsed between the 911 call and Gates' arrest?
Gates was not arrested for failure to show ID. He was arrested for disorderly conduct AFTER it had already been established he was the lawful occupant. He had every right to be pissed off on his own property.
Had he not been arrested, this would never have been a story.
Had he shown his ID when asked instead exploding like 3 year child (which supported "probable cause") he wouldn't have been arrested for disturbing the peace. And any one that wants to make this a race issue should be flat out ashamed of Gates's behavior.
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Gates didn't go about his business, clearly.
Can you give an example for your second statement?
I once reported gun fire at 1am in the morning. Being in the Canadian suburbs, gunfire in the middle of the night is not something one frequently hears, ...but I did my civic duty and reported it to the police. I had a dickhead of a cop show up at my house, who basically treated ME like the criminal, demanding to know why I was the only one who reported it, and why none of my neighbours heard anything? How the fvck was I supposed to know who heard it, or what reasons they may have for not reporting it? He was such a f-ing asshole, I was about to throw the son-of-a-bitch out of my house, when he got a call over his walkie-talkie. Seems while he was inside talking to me, there were a few other cops outside my house, and one cop noticed my neighbours car riddled with bullets. Instead of me throwing him out of my home, ...he went running out to survey the damage. Except for one of them, the whole lot of them were rude, arrogant, and completely inconsiderate bastards, ...including the detectives who later came. It was such an unpleasant experience, that two nights laters when there were gunshots going off again, ...I turned out the lights and didn't bother calling them back.
There are times when the only time you can ever get things done is to threaten them. I once had a difficult situation with a neighbour. it was actually a guest of the neighbour. Rather than handle it myself, I called the police and asked them to take care of it. Those SOBs instead started investigating me. I got so sick of it, that after 2 months I demanded action. I told him, if he's smart, he's gonna do something about it, 'cause if he doesn't I will, that I had no intention of putting up with this another day! ...and there was no telling from there how the situation might escalate if I have to take care of it myself, but I was prepared to do anything and everything to put a stop to it. It was entirely his call. The cop finally did something about it.
Not all cops are dicks, ...but the ones that are, make it tougher for everyone concerned.
Sometimes it's just easier to take the law into your own hands rather than have to deal with them.
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Had he shown his ID when asked instead exploding like 3 year child (which supported "probable cause") he wouldn't have been arrested for disturbing the peace. And any one that wants to make this a race issue should be flat out ashamed of Gates's behavior.
I've maintained all along it's an arrogance issue. A cop abusing his authority.
It's for others to determine why he felt he could abuse his authority the way he did,
...or why he felt it necessary to fabricate lies in his police report.
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Jag, I'm not sure how it works in Canada but here you can ask for a supervisor to come to the scene if you want to make a complaint. That is your right in the States. If not, buy some flashbangs and lob them in your neighbor's yard. ;D I feel you on wanting to take the law into your hands but unfortunately cooler heads never prevail in those situations. I made multiple noise complaints in college before something was finally done about these neighbors. They threatened to sue me and harassed me about it so I called a supervisor out to talk to them. He was curt with me about dealing with the neighbors but basically told them to shut up and stop being jerks or he would get them evicted for being a nuisance. It's easier just to keep calling in most cases and threaten to make a complaint to a supervisor. You do that here and the problem is normally solved instantly.
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Jag, I'm not sure how it works in Canada but here you can ask for a supervisor to come to the scene if you want to make a complaint. That is your right in the States. If not, buy some flashbangs and lob them in your neighbor's yard. ;D I feel you on wanting to take the law into your hands but unfortunately cooler heads never prevail in those situations.
Oh I know. This could've gotten particularly ugly, ...especially considering the fact that my Aunt Flo was visiting.
I made multiple noise complaints in college before something was finally done about these neighbors. They threatened to sue me and harassed me about it so I called a supervisor out to talk to them. He was curt with me about dealing with the neighbors but basically told them to shut up and stop being jerks or he would get them evicted for being a nuisance. It's easier just to keep calling in most cases and threaten to make a complaint to a supervisor. You do that here and the problem is normally solved instantly.
I had nothing against the neighbours, ...it was the little prick who picked my neighbours kids up for school.
I wanted to rip the fvckers head off his neck! Every single morning at 8am this kid would show up, ...and ride the horn. I don't mean beep the horn, ...I mean he'd play a f'ing tune on it >:( I would go to sleep 12 hours before my call time... which meant if I had a 4pm call time, I was going to bed at 4am in time to start my work day fresh. If I had a 2 am call time, I'd go to bed at 2pm in the afternoon. Just because the kids a few houses down have to be up at 8 am in the morning is no reason why I should have to be as well. Most mornings my call time was early enough that I'd be out of the house and well into my work day before 8 am rolled around, ...but when that wasn't the case, it was a nightmare. There's no way you can put in a 12 - 15 hr work day without sleep, ...showing up on set with bags and dark circles under your eyes, and your eye balls all red... falling asleep while blocking.
This kid was punctual as hell too. Every single morning at 8am on the dot, he was there riding the horn!
I was somewhat annoyed with the neighbours in that if you know you have somebody coming to pick you up at 8am everyday, get your ass out the door and be on time, but they weren't the ones riding the horn, their driver was. As far as this kid was concerned, if his passengers weren't punctual, either wait patiently or leave, ...but don't wake the whole damned neighbourhood up. He'd ride the horn for sometimes close to 10 minutes, by which time, you can't get back to sleep. it's darned near impossible at that point, especially with the sun coming in etc. It's like someone routinely riding the horn at 3 or 4am for most people and I had had enough. I told the cop he either does something about it or I will.
He spoke to my neighbours and asked them to request of their friend to NOT beep the horn to summon the kids.
That didn't work. So I gave the cop another chance to rectify the situation. He sat outfront of the house, ...and sure enough, the kid shows up at 8 am on the dot, and proceeds to ride the horn. He tells him to stop, and that if he continued to do it, he would be charged. The next day, the cop parks on the other side of the street, and sure enough the kid drives up at 8am on the dot, and proceeds to ride the horn. He got charged! It took 3 f-ing months. Then the cop adds how he couldn't believe how I'd managed to put up with that for the past three months. No wonder I'd been so upset every time I called in ::)
One of the really frustrating parts about all this was before the cop would do anything about it, or even investigate it, he investigated me first, demanding to know what I did for a living, and how much money I made doing it. What that had to do with anything was irrelevant, ...but I had to go through this hassle before he even took any sort of action. Luckily I happened to have a stack of paycheques with me that I hadn't yet deposited, so I was able to produce my time sheets from various productions showing sporadic & varying call times. Unfvckingbelieveable! :o
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jag,
great job on the beeper....
but sprinking tacks all over the road where he parked to beep each morning would have been cool as well.
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Oh I know. This could've gotten particularly ugly, ...especially considering the fact that my Aunt Flo was visiting.
I had nothing against the neighbours, ...it was the little prick who picked my neighbours kids up for school.
I wanted to rip the fvckers head off his neck! Every single morning at 8am this kid would show up, ...and ride the horn. I don't mean beep the horn, ...I mean he'd play a f'ing tune on it >:( I would go to sleep 12 hours before my call time... which meant if I had a 4pm call time, I was going to bed at 4am in time to start my work day fresh. If I had a 2 am call time, I'd go to bed at 2pm in the afternoon. Just because the kids a few houses down have to be up at 8 am in the morning is no reason why I should have to be as well. Most mornings my call time was early enough that I'd be out of the house and well into my work day before 8 am rolled around, ...but when that wasn't the case, it was a nightmare. There's no way you can put in a 12 - 15 hr work day without sleep, ...showing up on set with bags and dark circles under your eyes, and your eye balls all red... falling asleep while blocking.
This kid was punctual as hell too. Every single morning at 8am on the dot, he was there riding the horn!
I was somewhat annoyed with the neighbours in that if you know you have somebody coming to pick you up at 8am everyday, get your ass out the door and be on time, but they weren't the ones riding the horn, their driver was. As far as this kid was concerned, if his passengers weren't punctual, either wait patiently or leave, ...but don't wake the whole damned neighbourhood up. He'd ride the horn for sometimes close to 10 minutes, by which time, you can't get back to sleep. it's darned near impossible at that point, especially with the sun coming in etc. It's like someone routinely riding the horn at 3 or 4am for most people and I had had enough. I told the cop he either does something about it or I will.
He spoke to my neighbours and asked them to request of their friend to NOT beep the horn to summon the kids.
That didn't work. So I gave the cop another chance to rectify the situation. He sat outfront of the house, ...and sure enough, the kid shows up at 8 am on the dot, and proceeds to ride the horn. He tells him to stop, and that if he continued to do it, he would be charged. The next day, the cop parks on the other side of the street, and sure enough the kid drives up at 8am on the dot, and proceeds to ride the horn. He got charged! It took 3 f-ing months. Then the cop adds how he couldn't believe how I'd managed to put up with that for the past three months. No wonder I'd been so upset every time I called in ::)
One of the really frustrating parts about all this was before the cop would do anything about it, or even investigate it, he investigated me first, demanding to know what I did for a living, and how much money I made doing it. What that had to do with anything was irrelevant, ...but I had to go through this hassle before he even took any sort of action. Luckily I happened to have a stack of paycheques with me that I hadn't yet deposited, so I was able to produce my time sheets from various productions showing sporadic & varying call times. Unfvckingbelieveable! :o
If he was on private property, why did it matter?
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jag,
great job on the beeper....
but sprinking tacks all over the road where he parked to beep each morning would have been cool as well.
That would have only punctured innocent tires. Plus there were two cars that showed up at that house every morning. One car that picked up a younger kid (who btw never beeped when the kid was late, he just went to the door and rang the doorbell) and took him to elementary school, ...then there was the car horn musician who picked up the two older boys and drove them to highschool. I was so f-ing happy when those boys got their license and started driving themselves.
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If he was on private property, why did it matter?
Actually, he did it from the street. That made it public property. :D
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Actually, he did it from the street. That made it public property. :D
So if he was on his driveway, it would have been acceptable?
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So if he was on his driveway, it would have been acceptable?
If he was on his own driveway, ...I wouldn't have given a shit. He didn't live near me.
And waking me up every single morning at 8 am on the dot against my will is never acceptable! >:(
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If he was on his own driveway, ...I wouldn't have given a shit. He didn't live near me.
And waking me up every single morning at 8 am on the dot against my will is never acceptable! >:(
Lets have a hypothetical here.
I live with my wife and we carpool to work everyday. I am always ready before she is, so I go out and warm up the car. I honk the horn every morning for a minute(on my own property) to get my wife to come outside.
You are my neighbor, and I honk the horn when you are asleep and it wakes you up everyday.
Do you have a problem?
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Lets have a hypothetical here.
I live with my wife and we carpool to work everyday. I am always ready before she is, so I go out and warm up the car. I honk the horn every morning for a minute(on my own property) to get my wife to come outside.
You are my neighbor, and I honk the horn when you are asleep and it wakes you up everyday.
Do you have a problem?
Probably not, since you and I wouldn't travel let alone live in the same neighbourhoods. hypothetically speaking. ;D