Anger Has Its Place

[OzmO]

You didn't answer my question. Who are the two unknown suspects you referenced who refused to show ID?

Exactly,  until ID is provided they could be anyone

Oh that would have been absolutely priceless!!!  I could just see the headlines now:

"Cop assaults distinguished Professor in his own home"

oh ya, ...that would go down well...NOT! You think this is controversial, ...that would be CONTROVERSY¹⁰

[/quote]

Yeah,  it would have been unfortunate, but likely with in protocol for police to that.

Point is, Gates brought his arrest on himself. 

[24KT]

Exactly,  until ID is provided they could be anyone


Yeah,  it would have been unfortunate, but likely with in protocol for police to that.

Point is, Gates brought his arrest on himself. 

Way to completely avoid answering my question again OzMo.

You sate there were two suspects who BOTH refused to show id to Crowley.
We know gates was a suspect who did show his id. My question to you is who is this other suspect who refused to show id to crowley? ...and if that were indeed the case, how is it he was no arrested for his refusal to show id? Don't avoid the question, answer it.

[OzmO]

Way to completely avoid answering my question again OzMo.

You sate there were two suspects who BOTH refused to show id to Crowley.
We know gates was a suspect who did show his id. My question to you is who is this other suspect who refused to show id to crowley? ...and if that were indeed the case, how is it he was no arrested for his refusal to show id? Don't avoid the question, answer it.

Then I don't understand your question.

The arrest wasn't based on refusal to show ID, the arrest was made based on Gates disturbing the peace.  So I don't know where you are trying to go with this.

Because of the type of call, ID needed to be established less they take further action.

[24KT]

Then I don't understand your question.

The arrest wasn't based on refusal to show ID, the arrest was made based on Gates disturbing the peace.  So I don't know where you are trying to go with this.

Because of the type of call, ID needed to be established less they take further action.

I'm not trying to go anywhere with this, other than to clarify the statement you made earlier in your attempt to boost Crowley's case. the one wherein you said that "BOTH suspects refused to show id."

We already know this is a falsehood because Gates did show his id, ...he showed 2 forms of it.
What I want to know is who is this 2nd suspect who refused to show Crowley his id?
Are you referring to Gates' chauffeur? ...a man who had long since left the scene after helping Gates into his home?

[OzmO]

I'm not trying to go anywhere with this, other than to clarify the statement you made earlier in your attempt to boost Crowley's case. the one wherein you said that "BOTH suspects refused to show id."

We already know this is a falsehood because Gates did show his id, ...he showed 2 forms of it.
What I want to know is who is this 2nd suspect who refused to show Crowley his id?
Are you referring to Gates' chauffeur? ...a man who had long since left the scene after helping Gates into his home?

So the first time Crowley asked for ID Gates readily showed it?   

Try again Jaggy.

Had Gates just done that, this would have never been a story.

[tonymctones]

So the first time Crowley asked for ID Gates readily showed it?   

Try again Jaggy.

Had Gates just done that, this would have never been a story.

thats apparently not the way blacks are taught to act by their parents. they are taught to go about their business and act is if the police have no authority to tell them anything. Right jag?

[Cap]

thats apparently not the way blacks are taught to act by their parents. they are taught to go about their business and act is if the police have no authority to tell them anything. Right jag?

I wont speak about all black people but most that I have dealt with have that attitude, especially those  from lower socioeconomic areas.  Things escalate when someone doesn't do what you ask them to nicely.  The general rule of thumb for policing is to "ask" someone to do something, "tell" them to, and then "make" them do it.  Unfortunately with some people it ALWAYS gets to that third step.

[tonymctones]

I wont speak about all black people but most that I have dealt with have that attitude, especially those  from lower socioeconomic areas.  Things escalate when someone doesn't do what you ask them to nicely.  The general rule of thumb for policing is to "ask" someone to do something, "tell" them to, and then "make" them do it.  Unfortunately with some people it ALWAYS gets to that third step.

exactly when if you were taught right it would never get passed the first step. If dealt with a hole cops before but I still did what they asked me to do the first time.

[Cap]

exactly when if you were taught right it would never get passed the first step. If dealt with a hole cops before but I still did what they asked me to do the first time.

There are jerk officers, believe me I have dealt with a few but you just cooperate and act polite and in the end if you didn't do anything wrong then you should be going about your business.  Just remember that when you hear stories about officers being dicks for no reason, chances are SOMETHING else happened.  There are assholes on the job but often douchebag citizens (snotty elites, college kids, ghetto thugs) cause the interaction to go south.

[24KT]

So the first time Crowley asked for ID Gates readily showed it?   

Try again Jaggy.

Had Gates just done that, this would have never been a story.

How much time lapsed between the 911 call and Gates' arrest?

Gates was not arrested for failure to show ID. He was arrested for disorderly conduct AFTER it had already been established he was the lawful occupant. He had every right to be pissed off on his own property.

Had he not been arrested, this would never have been a story.

[24KT]

thats apparently not the way blacks are taught to act by their parents. they are taught to go about their business and act is if the police have no authority to tell them anything. Right jag?

Gates is a senior citizen. It's reasonable to say that whatever his parents may or may not have taught him,
...he was now reacting like a prominent citizen outraged. Apparently, someone forgot to tell him he was Black. 

[24KT]

There are jerk officers, believe me I have dealt with a few but you just cooperate and act polite and in the end if you didn't do anything wrong then you should be going about your business.  Just remember that when you hear stories about officers being dicks for no reason, chances are SOMETHING else happened.  There are assholes on the job but often douchebag citizens (snotty elites, college kids, ghetto thugs) cause the interaction to go south.

Clearly, that is not always the case.
Sometimes even those doing their civic duties by calling in reports are subjected to being treated like criminals by cops.

[Cap]

Clearly, that is not always the case.
Sometimes even those doing their civic duties by calling in reports are subjected to being treated like criminals by cops.

Gates didn't go about his business, clearly.

Can you give an example for your second statement?

[OzmO]

How much time lapsed between the 911 call and Gates' arrest?

Gates was not arrested for failure to show ID. He was arrested for disorderly conduct AFTER it had already been established he was the lawful occupant. He had every right to be pissed off on his own property.

Had he not been arrested, this would never have been a story.

Had he shown his ID when asked instead exploding like 3 year child (which supported "probable cause") he wouldn't have been arrested for disturbing the peace.  And any one that wants to make this a race issue should be flat out ashamed of Gates's behavior.

[24KT]

Gates didn't go about his business, clearly.

Can you give an example for your second statement?

I once reported gun fire at 1am in the morning. Being in the Canadian suburbs, gunfire in the middle of the night is not something one frequently hears, ...but I did my civic duty and reported it to the police. I had a dickhead of a cop show up at my house, who basically treated ME like the criminal, demanding to know why I was the only one who reported it, and why none of my neighbours heard anything? How the fvck was I supposed to know who heard it, or what reasons they may have for not reporting it? He was such a f-ing asshole, I was about to throw the son-of-a-bitch out of my house, when he got a call over his walkie-talkie. Seems while he was inside talking to me, there were a few other cops outside my house, and one cop noticed my neighbours car riddled with bullets. Instead of me throwing him out of my home, ...he went running out to survey the damage. Except for one of them, the whole lot of them were rude, arrogant, and completely inconsiderate bastards, ...including the detectives who later came. It was such an unpleasant experience, that two nights laters when there were gunshots going off again, ...I turned out the lights and didn't bother calling them back.

There are times when the only time you can ever get things done is to threaten them. I once had a difficult situation with a neighbour. it was actually a guest of the neighbour. Rather than handle it myself, I called the police and asked them to take care of it. Those SOBs instead started investigating me. I got so sick of it, that after 2 months I demanded action. I told him, if he's smart, he's gonna do something about it, 'cause if he doesn't I will, that I had no intention of putting up with this another day! ...and there was no telling from there how the situation might escalate if I have to take care of it myself, but I was prepared to do anything and everything to put a stop to it. It was entirely his call. The cop finally did something about it.

Not all cops are dicks, ...but the ones that are, make it tougher for everyone concerned.
Sometimes it's just easier to take the law into your own hands rather than have to deal with them.

[24KT]

Had he shown his ID when asked instead exploding like 3 year child (which supported "probable cause") he wouldn't have been arrested for disturbing the peace.  And any one that wants to make this a race issue should be flat out ashamed of Gates's behavior.

I've maintained all along it's an arrogance issue. A cop abusing his authority.
It's for others to determine why he felt he could abuse his authority the way he did,
...or why he felt it necessary to fabricate lies in his police report.

[Cap]

Jag, I'm not sure how it works in Canada but here you can ask for a supervisor to come to the scene if you want to make a complaint.  That is your right in the States.  If not, buy some flashbangs and lob them in your neighbor's yard.     I feel you on wanting to take the law into your hands but unfortunately cooler heads never prevail in those situations.  I made multiple noise complaints in college before something was finally done about these neighbors.  They threatened to sue me and harassed me about it so I called a supervisor out to talk to them.  He was curt with me about dealing with the neighbors but basically told them to shut up and stop being jerks or he would get them evicted for being a nuisance.  It's easier just to keep calling in most cases and threaten to make a complaint to a supervisor.  You do that here and the problem is normally solved instantly.

[24KT]

Jag, I'm not sure how it works in Canada but here you can ask for a supervisor to come to the scene if you want to make a complaint.  That is your right in the States.  If not, buy some flashbangs and lob them in your neighbor's yard.     I feel you on wanting to take the law into your hands but unfortunately cooler heads never prevail in those situations.

Oh I know. This could've gotten particularly ugly, ...especially considering the fact that my Aunt Flo was visiting.

I made multiple noise complaints in college before something was finally done about these neighbors.  They threatened to sue me and harassed me about it so I called a supervisor out to talk to them.  He was curt with me about dealing with the neighbors but basically told them to shut up and stop being jerks or he would get them evicted for being a nuisance.  It's easier just to keep calling in most cases and threaten to make a complaint to a supervisor.  You do that here and the problem is normally solved instantly.

I had nothing against the neighbours, ...it was the little prick who picked my neighbours kids up for school.
I wanted to rip the fvckers head off his neck! Every single morning at 8am this kid would show up, ...and ride the horn. I don't mean beep the horn, ...I mean he'd play a f'ing tune on it    I would go to sleep 12 hours before my call time... which meant if I had a 4pm call time, I was going to bed at 4am in time to start my work day fresh. If I had a 2 am call time, I'd go to bed at 2pm in the afternoon. Just because the kids a few houses down have to be up at 8 am in the morning is no reason why I should have to be as well. Most mornings my call time was early enough that I'd be out of the house and well into my work day before 8 am rolled around, ...but when that wasn't the case, it was a nightmare. There's no way you can put in a 12 - 15 hr work day without sleep, ...showing up on set with bags and dark circles under your eyes, and your eye balls all red... falling asleep while blocking.

This kid was punctual as hell too. Every single morning at 8am on the dot, he was there riding the horn!
I was somewhat annoyed with the neighbours in that if you know you have somebody coming to pick you up at 8am everyday, get your ass out the door and be on time, but they weren't the ones riding the horn, their driver was. As far as this kid was concerned, if his passengers weren't punctual, either wait patiently or leave, ...but don't wake the whole damned neighbourhood up. He'd ride the horn for sometimes close to 10 minutes, by which time, you can't get back to sleep. it's darned near impossible at that point, especially with the sun coming in etc. It's like someone routinely riding the horn at 3 or 4am for most people and I had had enough. I told the cop he either does something about it or I will.

He spoke to my neighbours and asked them to request of their friend to NOT beep the horn to summon the kids.

That didn't work. So I gave the cop another chance to rectify the situation. He sat outfront of the house, ...and sure enough, the kid shows up at 8 am on the dot, and proceeds to ride the horn. He tells him to stop, and that if he continued to do it, he would be charged. The next day, the cop parks on the other side of the street, and sure enough the kid drives up at 8am on the dot, and proceeds to ride the horn. He got charged! It took 3 f-ing months. Then the cop adds how he couldn't believe how I'd managed to put up with that for the past three months.  No wonder I'd been so upset every time I called in

One of the really frustrating parts about all this was before the cop would do anything about it, or even investigate it, he investigated me first, demanding to know what I did for a living, and how much money I made doing it. What that had to do with anything was irrelevant, ...but I had to go through this hassle before he even took any sort of action. Luckily I happened to have a stack of paycheques with me that I hadn't yet deposited, so I was able to produce my time sheets from various productions showing sporadic & varying call times. Unfvckingbelieveable! 

[240 is Back]

jag,

great job on the beeper....

but sprinking tacks all over the road where he parked to beep each morning would have been cool as well.

[grab an umbrella]

Oh I know. This could've gotten particularly ugly, ...especially considering the fact that my Aunt Flo was visiting.

I had nothing against the neighbours, ...it was the little prick who picked my neighbours kids up for school.
I wanted to rip the fvckers head off his neck! Every single morning at 8am this kid would show up, ...and ride the horn. I don't mean beep the horn, ...I mean he'd play a f'ing tune on it    I would go to sleep 12 hours before my call time... which meant if I had a 4pm call time, I was going to bed at 4am in time to start my work day fresh. If I had a 2 am call time, I'd go to bed at 2pm in the afternoon. Just because the kids a few houses down have to be up at 8 am in the morning is no reason why I should have to be as well. Most mornings my call time was early enough that I'd be out of the house and well into my work day before 8 am rolled around, ...but when that wasn't the case, it was a nightmare. There's no way you can put in a 12 - 15 hr work day without sleep, ...showing up on set with bags and dark circles under your eyes, and your eye balls all red... falling asleep while blocking.

This kid was punctual as hell too. Every single morning at 8am on the dot, he was there riding the horn!
I was somewhat annoyed with the neighbours in that if you know you have somebody coming to pick you up at 8am everyday, get your ass out the door and be on time, but they weren't the ones riding the horn, their driver was. As far as this kid was concerned, if his passengers weren't punctual, either wait patiently or leave, ...but don't wake the whole damned neighbourhood up. He'd ride the horn for sometimes close to 10 minutes, by which time, you can't get back to sleep. it's darned near impossible at that point, especially with the sun coming in etc. It's like someone routinely riding the horn at 3 or 4am for most people and I had had enough. I told the cop he either does something about it or I will.

He spoke to my neighbours and asked them to request of their friend to NOT beep the horn to summon the kids.

That didn't work. So I gave the cop another chance to rectify the situation. He sat outfront of the house, ...and sure enough, the kid shows up at 8 am on the dot, and proceeds to ride the horn. He tells him to stop, and that if he continued to do it, he would be charged. The next day, the cop parks on the other side of the street, and sure enough the kid drives up at 8am on the dot, and proceeds to ride the horn. He got charged! It took 3 f-ing months. Then the cop adds how he couldn't believe how I'd managed to put up with that for the past three months.  No wonder I'd been so upset every time I called in

One of the really frustrating parts about all this was before the cop would do anything about it, or even investigate it, he investigated me first, demanding to know what I did for a living, and how much money I made doing it. What that had to do with anything was irrelevant, ...but I had to go through this hassle before he even took any sort of action. Luckily I happened to have a stack of paycheques with me that I hadn't yet deposited, so I was able to produce my time sheets from various productions showing sporadic & varying call times. Unfvckingbelieveable! 

If he was on private property, why did it matter?

[24KT]

jag,

great job on the beeper....

but sprinking tacks all over the road where he parked to beep each morning would have been cool as well.

That would have only punctured innocent tires. Plus there were two cars that showed up at that house every morning. One car that picked up a younger kid (who btw never beeped when the kid was late, he just went to the door and rang the doorbell) and took him to elementary school, ...then there was the car horn musician who picked up the two older boys and drove them to highschool. I was so f-ing happy when those boys got their license and started driving themselves.

[24KT]

If he was on private property, why did it matter?

Actually, he did it from the street. That made it public property. 

[grab an umbrella]

Actually, he did it from the street. That made it public property. 

So if he was on his driveway, it would have been acceptable?

[24KT]

So if he was on his driveway, it would have been acceptable?

If he was on his own driveway, ...I wouldn't have given a shit. He didn't live near me.
And waking me up every single morning at 8 am on the dot against my will is never acceptable! 

[grab an umbrella]

If he was on his own driveway, ...I wouldn't have given a shit. He didn't live near me.
And waking me up every single morning at 8 am on the dot against my will is never acceptable! 

Lets have a hypothetical here.

I live with my wife and we carpool to work everyday.  I am always ready before she is, so I go out and warm up the car.  I honk the horn every morning for a minute(on my own property) to get my wife to come outside. 

You are my neighbor, and I honk the horn when you are asleep and it wakes you up everyday. 

Do you have a problem?