Author Topic: Anger Has Its Place  (Read 7246 times)

Benny B

  • Time Out
  • Getbig V
  • *
  • Posts: 12405
  • Ron = 'Princess L' & many other gimmicks - FACT!
Anger Has Its Place
« on: August 02, 2009, 10:28:21 AM »
 ;)
August 1, 2009

Anger Has Its Place
By BOB HERBERT

Cambridge, Mass.

No more than five or six minutes elapsed from the time the police were alerted to the possibility of a break-in at a home in a quiet residential neighborhood and the awful clamping of handcuffs on the wrists of the distinguished Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates Jr.

If Professor Gates ranted and raved at the cop who entered his home uninvited with a badge, a gun and an attitude, he didn’t rant and rave for long. The 911 call came in at about 12:45 on the afternoon of July 16 and, as The Times has reported, Mr. Gates was arrested, cuffed and about to be led off to jail by 12:51.

The charge: angry while black.

The president of the United States has suggested that we use this flare-up as a “teachable moment,” but so far exactly the wrong lessons are being drawn from it — especially for black people. The message that has gone out to the public is that powerful African-American leaders like Mr. Gates and President Obama will be very publicly slapped down for speaking up and speaking out about police misbehavior, and that the proper response if you think you are being unfairly targeted by the police because of your race is to chill.

I have nothing but contempt for that message.


Mr. Gates is a friend, and I was selected some months ago to receive an award from an institute that he runs at Harvard. I made no attempt to speak to him while researching this column.

The very first lesson that should be drawn from the encounter between Mr. Gates and the arresting officer, Sgt. James Crowley, is that Professor Gates did absolutely nothing wrong. He did not swear at the officer or threaten him. He was never a danger to anyone. At worst, if you believe the police report, he yelled at Sergeant Crowley. He demanded to know if he was being treated the way he was being treated because he was black.

You can yell at a cop in America. This is not Iran. And if some people don’t like what you’re saying, too bad. You can even be wrong in what you are saying. There is no law against that. It is not an offense for which you are supposed to be arrested.

That’s a lesson that should have emerged clearly from this contretemps.

It was the police officer, Sergeant Crowley, who did something wrong in this instance. He arrested a man who had already demonstrated to the officer’s satisfaction that he was in his own home and had been minding his own business, bothering no one. Sergeant Crowley arrested Professor Gates and had him paraded off to jail for no good reason, and that brings us to the most important lesson to be drawn from this case. Black people are constantly being stopped, searched, harassed, publicly humiliated, assaulted, arrested and sometimes killed by police officers in this country for no good reason.

New York City cops make upwards of a half-million stops of private citizens each year, questioning and frequently frisking these men, women and children. The overwhelming majority of those stopped are black or Latino, and the overwhelming majority are innocent of any wrongdoing. A true “teachable moment” would focus a spotlight on such outrages and the urgent need to stop them.

But this country is not interested in that.


I wrote a number of columns about the arrests of more than 30 black and Hispanic youngsters — male and female — who were doing nothing more than walking peacefully down a quiet street in Brooklyn in broad daylight in the spring of 2007. The kids had to hire lawyers and fight the case for nearly two frustrating years before the charges were dropped and a settlement for their outlandish arrests worked out.

Black people need to roar out their anger at such treatment, lift up their voices and demand change. Anyone counseling a less militant approach is counseling self-defeat. As of mid-2008, there were 4,777 black men imprisoned in America for every 100,000 black men in the population. By comparison, there were only 727 white male inmates per 100,000 white men.

While whites use illegal drugs at substantially higher percentages than blacks, black men are sent to prison on drug charges at 13 times the rate of white men.

Most whites do not want to hear about racial problems, and President Obama would rather walk through fire than spend his time dealing with them. We’re never going to have a serious national conversation about race. So that leaves it up to ordinary black Americans to rant and to rave, to demonstrate and to lobby, to march and confront and to sue and generally do whatever is necessary to stop a continuing and deeply racist criminal justice outrage.
!

George Whorewell

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7362
  • TND
Re: Anger Has Its Place
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2009, 10:39:22 AM »
 ::)

The same argument can be made that blacks dont want to have a serious conversation about race that doesnt involve throwing a hissy fit and becoming overly emotional. Some of my less evolved friends would say that blacks dont want to have any serious discussion about race in America that doesnt involve them ignoring their own behavior while blaming whitey for everything and anything.

Soul Crusher

  • Competitors
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 39865
  • Doesnt lie about lifting.
Re: Anger Has Its Place
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2009, 10:46:06 AM »
::)

The same argument can be made that blacks dont want to have a serious conversation about race that doesnt involve throwing a hissy fit and becoming overly emotional. Some of my less evolved friends would say that blacks dont want to have any serious discussion about race in America that doesnt involve them ignoring their own behavior while blaming whitey for everything and anything.

From the article:

"And that the proper response if you think you are being unfairly targeted by the police because of your race is to chill."

Why should society have to accomodate every dumb subjective view?  Gates was plain wrong in his belief he was being targeted due to his race.  Crowley was there to investigate a potential robbery in progress.     

headhuntersix

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 17271
  • Our forefathers would be shooting by now
Re: Anger Has Its Place
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2009, 10:49:13 AM »
Considering the amount of crimes committed by blacks and latino's, maybe they ought to get stopped more in high crime areas. Maybe blacks should see this as an attamept to make society safer. If i lived in a meth lab infested area  and the cops stopped me, I wouldn't whine.
L

24KT

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 24454
  • Gold Savings Account Rep +1 (310) 409-2244
Re: Anger Has Its Place
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2009, 05:02:29 PM »
From the article:

"And that the proper response if you think you are being unfairly targeted by the police because of your race is to chill."

Why should society have to accomodate every dumb subjective view?  Gates was plain wrong in his belief he was being targeted due to his race.  Crowley was there to investigate a potential robbery in progress.     

You take that quote out of context. The author of the article goes on to state:

"I have nothing but contempt for that message."
w

OzmO

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22715
  • Drink enough Kool-aid and you'll think its healthy
Re: Anger Has Its Place
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2009, 05:09:14 PM »


The president of the United States has suggested that we use this flare-up as a “teachable moment,” but so far exactly the wrong lessons are being drawn from it — especially for black people. The message that has gone out to the public is that powerful African-American leaders like Mr. Gates and President Obama will be very publicly slapped down for speaking up and speaking out about police misbehavior, and that the proper response if you think you are being unfairly targeted by the police because of your race is to chill.

I have nothing but contempt for that message.




The proper response IS to chill out.  Acting like a fool solve nothing and only causes further problems.  Frankly I'm really surprise this man is a "Harvard" grad.  He seems more like a arrogant idiot to me. 

OzmO

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22715
  • Drink enough Kool-aid and you'll think its healthy
Re: Anger Has Its Place
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2009, 05:13:04 PM »
Quote
Most whites do not want to hear about racial problems, and President Obama would rather walk through fire than spend his time dealing with them. We’re never going to have a serious national conversation about race. So that leaves it up to ordinary black Americans to rant and to rave, to demonstrate and to lobby, to march and confront and to sue and generally do whatever is necessary to stop a continuing and deeply racist criminal justice outrage.

This only fuels the "not having to be accountable for your life" attitude many people have for many different reasons including the "I'm black" victim mentality. 

OzmO

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22715
  • Drink enough Kool-aid and you'll think its healthy
Re: Anger Has Its Place
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2009, 05:15:07 PM »


While whites use illegal drugs at substantially higher percentages than blacks, black men are sent to prison on drug charges at 13 times the rate of white men.

 

Maybe they should just stop using & trafficking illegal drugs.  Oh, no, lets just whine about percentages.

24KT

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 24454
  • Gold Savings Account Rep +1 (310) 409-2244
Re: Anger Has Its Place
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2009, 05:16:02 PM »
The proper response IS to chill out.  Acting like a fool solve nothing and only causes further problems.  Frankly I'm really surprise this man is a "Harvard" grad.  He seems more like a arrogant idiot to me. 

If that attitude prevails, ...this will no doubt happen again, and when it does... we'll see what people say then.  :-\
w

OzmO

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22715
  • Drink enough Kool-aid and you'll think its healthy
Re: Anger Has Its Place
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2009, 05:18:17 PM »
If that attitude prevails, ...this will no doubt happen again, and when it does... we'll see what people say then.  :-\

It happens everyday.  The only difference is the cop was stupid enough to arrest him.  The cop should have just dropped it.   As it happens everyday, most people are smart enough to chill and provide ID letting the cops do their job, especially in this instance.

24KT

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 24454
  • Gold Savings Account Rep +1 (310) 409-2244
Re: Anger Has Its Place
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2009, 05:22:40 PM »
Maybe they should just stop using & trafficking illegal drugs.  Oh, no, lets just whine about percentages.

Perhaps, ...but you do have to question a criminal justice system that demands felony convictions and mandatory jail terms for minimal quantities of drugs for personal consumption, while maintaining huge quantities of the very same drug obviously for trafficking and distribution as mere misdemeanors without any mandatory jail terms attached. Sounds more a wasteful ineffectual system geared towards swatting bees rather than dismantling hives.
w

24KT

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 24454
  • Gold Savings Account Rep +1 (310) 409-2244
Re: Anger Has Its Place
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2009, 05:34:13 PM »
It happens everyday.  The only difference is the cop was stupid enough to arrest him.   The cop should have just dropped it.   

BINGO! So why is everyone so up in arms that the President spoke the truth? Crowley did act stupidly!

What was it about this situation that rattled Crowley so much that he felt the need to slap handcuffs on the man?
Was it anger over the threat to file charges on him? Was it anger & resentment over being called a racist, after all he has done regarding racial profiling? Was it the desire to teach this pompous man a lesson in humility? Did he think Gates was going to start a riot? What rattled Crowley so much he felt the need to effect an arrest? If Crowley can't keep his cool in the face of a tiny little old man yelling at him... he needs to be behind a desk and not interacting with the community.
 
Quote
As it happens everyday, most people are smart enough to chill and provide ID letting the cops do their job, especially in this instance.

And Gates did provide ID two forms of it
w

OzmO

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22715
  • Drink enough Kool-aid and you'll think its healthy
Re: Anger Has Its Place
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2009, 05:35:36 PM »
Perhaps, ...but you do have to question a criminal justice system that demands felony convictions and mandatory jail terms for minimal quantities of drugs for personal consumption, while maintaining huge quantities of the very same drug obviously for trafficking and distribution as mere misdemeanors without any mandatory jail terms attached. Sounds more a wasteful ineffectual system geared towards swatting bees rather than dismantling hives.

I've always been an advocate for the legalization of most non victimized crimes.  However, what you said there is not true.  There are many people who are spending 10-15 years in prison for trafficking something a harmless as pot.  Further more, as far as pot goes most states, getting busted with less than an ounce is a small fine.  So i don't know where you get the idea that if I get busted trafficking I'm sure to get off pretty much scott free.  I'm sure there have been instances where it has happened, but the norm is, you are serious crap if you get busted with a traffic quantity of drugs and you should plan on spending some time behind bars.

24KT

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 24454
  • Gold Savings Account Rep +1 (310) 409-2244
Re: Anger Has Its Place
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2009, 05:38:52 PM »
I've always been an advocate for the legalization of most non victimized crimes.  However, what you said there is not true.  There are many people who are spending 10-15 years in prison for trafficking something a harmless as pot.  Further more, as far as pot goes most states, getting busted with less than an ounce is a small fine.  So i don't know where you get the idea that if I get busted trafficking I'm sure to get off pretty much scott free.  I'm sure there have been instances where it has happened, but the norm is, you are serious crap if you get busted with a traffic quantity of drugs and you should plan on spending some time behind bars.

The drug I reference isn't marijuana. Heck, pot was the farthest thing from my mind.  I was thinking coke
w

OzmO

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22715
  • Drink enough Kool-aid and you'll think its healthy
Re: Anger Has Its Place
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2009, 05:40:30 PM »
BINGO! So why is everyone so up in arms that the President spoke the truth? Crowley did act stupidly!

What was it about this situation that rattled Crowley so much that he felt the need to slap handcuffs on the man?
Was it anger over the threat to file charges on him? Was it anger & resentment over being called a racist, after all he has done regarding racial profiling? Was it the desire to teach this pompous man a lesson in humility? Did he think Gates was going to start a riot? What rattled Crowley so much he felt the need to effect an arrest? If Crowley can't keep his cool in the face of a tiny little old man yelling at him... he needs to be behind a desk and not interacting with the community.
 
And Gates did provide ID two forms of it

I agree Crowley should have just walked away.  However, he was with in the law to arrest him.  Was it the wisest decision?  No.  Sometimes cops use good judgement in certain cases and don't, on their discretion, apply the law.  And sometimes they do when it isn't really a good idea.  In the end, cops are human and Crowley made a mistake.  But don't think for one second Gates is immune from blame in this instant.

The bottom line here is they BOTH acted stupidly.  

OzmO

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22715
  • Drink enough Kool-aid and you'll think its healthy
Re: Anger Has Its Place
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2009, 05:42:28 PM »
The drug I reference isn't marijuana. Heck, pot was the farthest thing from my mind.  I was thinking coke

Same difference (except for possession of small amounts of coke).  If you think you won't surely spend time behind bars for trafficking keys of coke because you are white you are seriously tripping.


Here's a state by state run down of coke laws:
http://law.jrank.org/pages/11809/Cocaine.html

OzmO

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22715
  • Drink enough Kool-aid and you'll think its healthy
Re: Anger Has Its Place
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2009, 05:44:12 PM »
And you know what, to a certain extent, I can understand Crowley's reaction.  He probably at some point lost HIS cool and figured he teach this jack ass a lesson.  Well it back fired on Crowley. Bad call.

24KT

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 24454
  • Gold Savings Account Rep +1 (310) 409-2244
Re: Anger Has Its Place
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2009, 06:08:11 PM »
I agree Crowley should have just walked away.  However, he was with in the law to arrest him.  Was it the wisest decision?  No.  Sometimes cops use good judgement in certain cases and don't, on their discretion, apply the law.  And sometimes they do when it isn't really a good idea.  In the end, cops are human and Crowley made a mistake.  But don't think for one second Gates is immune from blame in this instant.

The bottom line here is they BOTH acted stupidly.  

Agreed, ...but a man has the right to act stupidly in his own home. Crowley made an unlawful decision to follow Gates into his home. Without a warrant, and without probable cause, he should not have been inside the premises. A 911 call isn't probable cause, ...especially one wherein the caller suggests there may not even be a crime occuring. Crowley has to witness suspicious criminal behaviour, hear cries for help, or have knowledge of imminent danger to occupants within the premises to enter without a warrant. He acted stupidly, then compounded it further by making the arrest.

And you know what, to a certain extent, I can understand Crowley's reaction.  He probably at some point lost HIS cool and figured he teach this jack ass a lesson.  Well it back fired on Crowley. Bad call.

I completely understand Crowley's reaction as well, ...but just because I understand it, doesn't mean I condone it. Quite the opposite infact, especially in light of his profession. He's going to encounter all types. Because he has the legal authority to arrest, and shoot people, he's got to leave the pettiness behind, and he has to be held accountable for how he exercises the authority he's been given. If he can't keep his head and rise above pettiness, ...he needs to be behind a desk, not interacting with the public.  The President was right, ...Crowley acted stupidly.
w

dkf360

  • Getbig II
  • **
  • Posts: 274
  • Getbig!
Re: Anger Has Its Place
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2009, 06:29:14 PM »
From the article:

"And that the proper response if you think you are being unfairly targeted by the police because of your race is to chill."

Why should society have to accomodate every dumb subjective view?  Gates was plain wrong in his belief he was being targeted due to his race.  Crowley was there to investigate a potential robbery in progress.     
Agree.

dkf360

  • Getbig II
  • **
  • Posts: 274
  • Getbig!
Re: Anger Has Its Place
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2009, 06:30:34 PM »
Considering the amount of crimes committed by blacks and latino's, maybe they ought to get stopped more in high crime areas. Maybe blacks should see this as an attamept to make society safer. If i lived in a meth lab infested area  and the cops stopped me, I wouldn't whine.
That's what they don't want. The think that if they bitched enough, the authorities will leave them alone so they can continue their misdeeds. The media and apologists are actually condoning this behavior.

dkf360

  • Getbig II
  • **
  • Posts: 274
  • Getbig!
Re: Anger Has Its Place
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2009, 06:34:42 PM »
Agreed, ...but a man has the right to act stupidly in his own home. Crowley made an unlawful decision to follow Gates into his home. Without a warrant, and without probable cause, he should not have been inside the premises. A 911 call isn't probable cause, ...especially one wherein the caller suggests there may not even be a crime occuring. Crowley has to witness suspicious criminal behaviour, hear cries for help, or have knowledge of imminent danger to occupants within the premises to enter without a warrant. He acted stupidly, then compounded it further by making the arrest.

I completely understand Crowley's reaction as well, ...but just because I understand it, doesn't mean I condone it. Quite the opposite infact, especially in light of his profession. He's going to encounter all types. Because he has the legal authority to arrest, and shoot people, he's got to leave the pettiness behind, and he has to be held accountable for how he exercises the authority he's been given. If he can't keep his head and rise above pettiness, ...he needs to be behind a desk, not interacting with the public.  The President was right, ...Crowley acted stupidly.
Do you argue for the sake of arguing? How many times have we had to establish that the cop was there to investigate a possible break-in? That's the definition of probable cause.

OzmO

  • Moderator
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22715
  • Drink enough Kool-aid and you'll think its healthy
Re: Anger Has Its Place
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2009, 06:36:00 PM »
Agreed, ...but a man has the right to act stupidly in his own home. Crowley made an unlawful decision to follow Gates into his home. Without a warrant, and without probable cause, he should not have been inside the premises. A 911 call isn't probable cause, ...especially one wherein the caller suggests there may not even be a crime occuring. Crowley has to witness suspicious criminal behaviour, hear cries for help, or have knowledge of imminent danger to occupants within the premises to enter without a warrant. He acted stupidly, then compounded it further by making the arrest.

Did he unlawfully enter the house after ID had been established?  If he did, then there might be a problem with that. But if he didn't and he entered the house prior to ID being establish he is well with in probable cause because the call was classified as a burglary in progress and he had potential suspects on the premises.  

Hell, put it up for a vote.  Do you want your local police force to enter your home without your permission if potential suspects are inside and the police  are on a burglary call OR do you want them not to go in at all and just stand by the front door until you are located?

Kind of a no brainer.  


Think about it.  What if your kids were home alone, around 13yrs old.  Perhaps, your daughter getting raped, but the cops can't inside even though it's a burglary call and you have potential suspects refusing to show you ID?   

Quote
I completely understand Crowley's reaction as well, ...but just because I understand it, doesn't mean I condone it. Quite the opposite infact, especially in light of his profession. He's going to encounter all types. Because he has the legal authority to arrest, and shoot people, he's got to leave the pettiness behind, and he has to be held accountable for how he exercises the authority he's been given. If he can't keep his head and rise above pettiness, ...he needs to be behind a desk, not interacting with the public.  The President was right, ...Crowley acted stupidly.

Crowley acted stupidly because he exercised bad judgement.  Something every human being does. Even Ghandi.  That being said, Crowley acted with in the limits of the law.  If you think Crowely arresting him was pettiness then you don't understand his reaction at all.

24KT

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 24454
  • Gold Savings Account Rep +1 (310) 409-2244
Re: Anger Has Its Place
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2009, 06:47:58 PM »
Do you argue for the sake of arguing? How many times have we had to establish that the cop was there to investigate a possible break-in? That's the definition of probable cause.

I understand Crowley was there to investigate a possible breakin,
...however, that's not probable cause to enter the premises warrantless & uninvited.

ESPECIALLY WHEN WARRANTLESS & UNINVITED... he saw him grab a cordless phone and call into find out the police chief's name. What did his cop instincts tell him at that point? ...That this crazy deranged crippled killer who is about to rape someone's 13 year old daughter needs to be cuffed, ...or someone connected is pissed off at me?
w

24KT

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 24454
  • Gold Savings Account Rep +1 (310) 409-2244
Re: Anger Has Its Place
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2009, 06:52:43 PM »
Did he unlawfully enter the house after ID had been established?  If he did, then there might be a problem with that. But if he didn't and he entered the house prior to ID being establish he is well with in probable cause because the call was classified as a burglary in progress and he had potential suspects on the premises.  

Hell, put it up for a vote.  Do you want your local police force to enter your home without your permission if potential suspects are inside and the police  are on a burglary call OR do you want them not to go in at all and just stand by the front door until you are located?

Kind of a no brainer.  


Think about it.  What if your kids were home alone, around 13yrs old.  Perhaps, your daughter getting raped, but the cops can't inside even though it's a burglary call and you have potential suspects refusing to show you ID? 

No need to put anything up for a vote, ...guidelines have already been established in the Consitution & Bill of Rights.
  

Quote
Crowley acted stupidly because he exercised bad judgement.  Something every human being does. Even Ghandi.  That being said, Crowley acted with in the limits of the law.  If you think Crowely arresting him was pettiness then you don't understand his reaction at all.

I understand his reaction and I think it was petty. For some testosterone induced brain farts may take on all the importance in the world, but for me, ...it's simply petty.
w

tonymctones

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 26520
Re: Anger Has Its Place
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2009, 06:54:21 PM »
I understand Crowley was there to investigate a possible breakin,
...however, that's not probable cause to enter the premises warrantless & uninvited.
actually it is, did you know that if ppl freely enter your house the cops can deem that open entry and enter into your house? there are tons of things you probably dont know about the law jag.