Anger Has Its Place

[Cap]

There was no break-in

But a suspected break-in means there may NOT be a break in taking place. That's why you gather facts.

But a suspected break-in cannot be considered exigent circumstances, and does require a warrant, ...especially in the absence of a witness to an actual crime.

I would expect the cop to talk to the 911 caller and find out what the heck is going on, and I would expect him to follow the law. Even if he didn't follow the law to a T... dot every 'i' or cross every 't', I'd probably not make an issue out it, ...however, ...were I to be arrested in my own home, even after establishing that I'm the lawful occupant, and no crime was in progress, ...that would piss me off to no end, ...and you better believe I would make a stink about it, as well as every i not dotted and every t not crossed. Crowley made a stupid arrest, and now he has to be accountable for all his actions, as well as what appears to be a falsified police report.

Officers went to a house during a homicide investigation that had occurred nearby and saw what appeared to them to be a recent burglary, which is not merely a property crime [because burglaries happen when people are at home and they become home invasion robberies]. This was an emergency that justified their entry on its own and because of the mere potential it might have been related to the homicide. State v. Lemieux, 726 N.W.2d 783 (Minn. January 18, 2007)

[24KT]

yes

Does that describe a free country... or a military police state?

I guess your constitution is just a goddamned piece of paper afterall huh? Too bad it wasn't a little softer tho,
...then cops across the country could use it to wipe their asses as literally as they do figuratively.

[Cap]

But he was not responding to a burglary at the residence, ...and was not even called to the premises by the resident. Are you saying that I can make an anonymous call to the police describing a guy entering your own house, and ask them to send a car to check it out, ...that the police would have the right to enter your home against your will absent an invitation and a search warrant?

Suspected crime.  He has the responsibility to investigate because you know damn well some race baiter like you would have screamed racism if he was hurt or dead in there had an actual home invasion taken place.

It was no big deal to you, ...although I'm sure that had you made a big deal out of it, ...you would have realized they could not do that. In any event, yours might be a gray area considering you had a party and there was an incident involving your guests. That wasn't the case with Gates. With Gates, ...there was no disturbance or incident, other than an anonymous caller reporting what she considered to be possibly suspicious activity.

Again, you're not getting it.  Crowley had to investigate it.  Police investigate 911 calls until they can "dispo" the call.  In this case Gates created a disturbance after the investigation took place.  Get over it already.

[24KT]

Officers went to a house during a homicide investigation that had occurred nearby and saw what appeared to them to be a recent burglary, which is not merely a property crime [because burglaries happen when people are at home and they become home invasion robberies]. This was an emergency that justified their entry on its own and because of the mere potential it might have been related to the homicide. State v. Lemieux, 726 N.W.2d 783 (Minn. January 18, 2007)

That's my point. Unless the officer witnesses it himself, ...or witnesses, signs of a breakin, hears screaming, THAT is probable cause. not some anonymous caller who herself makes it clear she is unsure of what she's seeing, could be nothing at all, and calling on behalf of someone else. Apples and Oranges. The two scenarios are not comparable.

[Skip8282]

I would expect the cop to talk to the 911 caller and find out what the heck is going on, and I would expect him to follow the law.

While I think you're right about the fact that Gates should not have been arrested for excercising his first amendment rights, you're dead wrong about the probable cause.  Probable cause requires only a reasonable belief by the officer that something is amiss.

And, it's measured from the officer's point of view, not your 20/20 hindsight.  The officer has to go by the information provided by the dispatcher.  And Judge Napolitano did not take a position on the probable cause.  He was providing the hypothetical arguments that both sides will espouse and made it very clear that a jury would have to decide.

If my neighbor sees me take a couple of steps into my house, then collapse on the floor, and my door swings shut, I certainly hope the cop isn't going to spend 10 minutes interviewing the neighbor.

[24KT]

Suspected crime.  He has the responsibility to investigate because you know damn well some race baiter like you would have screamed racism if he was hurt or dead in there had an actual home invasion taken place.

Now you're just being an ass. You have alot of nerve calling me a race baiter. I've always maintained Crowley's actions were stupid and based on ego, testosterone, and hubris. Yet you want to lump me in with race baiters. You just can't deal with the idea that someone isn't all too eager to kiss police ass, and might actually question their authority to take the liberties they do daily.

I can smell a cop wannabe a mile away, and if or when you make the force, ...I wouldn't be advocating kissing your ass then either. Deal with it.

Again, you're not getting it.  Crowley had to investigate it.  Police investigate 911 calls until they can "dispo" the call.  In this case Gates created a disturbance after the investigation took place.  Get over it already.

no, it's you who is not getting. Crowley had to investigate it, Gates had no obligation to assist him, and upon discovering it was Gates home and there was no crime in progress, Crowley should have gotten the hell out. Yes, Gates created the disturbance after the investigation took place, because he was arrested. Had he not done something so stupid as to arrest the man for being justifiably pissed off, none of this would be a topic for discussion. Crowley fucked up, ...and just as Gates promised, he hasn't heard the end of it, ...and neither have you.

I guarantee you Crowley has alot of explaining to do, ...like how false information got into his police report. Info that only lends credibility to Gates, and his version of events. He will have to answer for that. This case has received far too much attention for it to go away unanswered. He will have to answer that. I for one am eagerly awaiting his answer too. 

[24KT]

While I think you're right about the fact that Gates should not have been arrested for excercising his first amendment rights, you're dead wrong about the probable cause.  Probable cause requires only a reasonable belief by the officer that something is amiss.

And, it's measured from the officer's point of view, not your 20/20 hindsight.  The officer has to go by the information provided by the dispatcher.  And Judge Napolitano did not take a position on the probable cause.  He was providing the hypothetical arguments that both sides will espouse and made it very clear that a jury would have to decide.

If my neighbor sees me take a couple of steps into my house, then collapse on the floor, and my door swings shut, I certainly hope the cop isn't going to spend 10 minutes interviewing the neighbor.

I completely understand what you're saying, ...however, again we're talking too different scenarios. what you describe could be considered reasonable in that the neighbor is witnessing you collapse. Your life could very well be in danger. I would hope they would send an ambulance before they called for squad cars. However, if upon arrival, they discover, you are not in any danger, and you order them out of your house, ...one would expect them to leave, not arrest you for being pissed off at their presence.

You ever taken a 20 hr flight from China, ...it's a long ass ride. People have a tendency to be a bit cranky afterwards

As for Gates, ...Crowley might well have gotten away with entering the premises without a warrant or invitation,
...but arresting Gates simply compounded the situation and caused a giant collective WTF? He should have simply walked away, swallowed his pride and given the old man an apology. Stubborn pride has often been the downfall of many a man.

[OzmO]

Especially when you have an uncooperative suspect who claims to be the resident.

A competent cop takes claims lightly.

You turn to the caller and ask why they believe this to be a break-in and what prompted them to call 911 in the first place? Had he done that, ...he might have taken a different approach to the situation, and we might not have seen Gates so agitated, and we might not have seen accusations of being a rogue levelled.

So all of a sudden you are a cop now?   

If thing were done your way there would be run away crime because the police would be powerless to do stuff because jack ass fools like Gates was could just claim stuff.

It's just like splinterhands said "If you're a bad guy, the police are out to get you", ...but when one adopts that approach with someone who is merely a "suspect" and not a proven perpetrator of a crime, ...you cast too wide a net and you're bound to bring up innocent people, ...and when you do... they're going to bitch... loudly! The squeaky cleaner they are, ...the louder they yell.

You catch more criminals that way.  Their bitching is their problem.  Crowley hadn't determine whether or not Gates was a criminal yet and Gates being the fool he is, wasn't helping matters.

It's one thing if Gates identity had not yet been established. Then I can understand luring his ass out onto public property in order to effect an arrest, until you can establish identity, ...but Gates was already established as the legal occupant when he made the arrest. He shouldn't have been arrested

He wasn't arrested for B and E.  did you forget that again?  He was arrested for disturbing the peace.  Only a complete jackass could get arrested for that on their own property. 

Don't kid yourself, ...your country is a high crime zone! 

Yeah to those who subject themselves to the news every day.  But then again we didn't give the world "Loverboy"

[OzmO]

I completely understand what you're saying, ...however, again we're talking too different scenarios. what you describe could be considered reasonable in that the neighbor is witnessing you collapse. Your life could very well be in danger. I would hope they would send an ambulance before they called for squad cars. However, if upon arrival, they discover, you are not in any danger, and you order them out of your house, ...one would expect them to leave, not arrest you for being pissed off at their presence.

You ever taken a 20 hr flight from China, ...it's a long ass ride. People have a tendency to be a bit cranky afterwards

As for Gates, ...Crowley might well have gotten away with entering the premises without a warrant or invitation,
...but arresting Gates simply compounded the situation and caused a giant collective WTF? He should have simply walked away, swallowed his pride and given the old man an apology. Stubborn pride has often been the downfall of many a man.

A 20 hour flight is no excuse for being a idiot.  Gates needs to take responsibility for his foolish actions and pathetic example he just set for anyone who would identify with him.

Based on just about everything you said regarding this, its apparent to me that although you have dated a few cops as you claim, you have no clue how the real world works in this case, and especially how it works in America. 

Crowley arrested Gates for disturbing the peace.  That's the only thing the cop did in question.  And if you say you'd rather the cops not aggressively question an intruder in your house who refused to show ID then you'd just be lying.

[Cap]

Now you're just being an ass. You have alot of nerve calling me a race baiter. I've always maintained Crowley's actions were stupid and based on ego, testosterone, and hubris. Yet you want to lump me in with race baiters. You just can't deal with the idea that someone isn't all too eager to kiss police ass, and might actually question their authority to take the liberties they do daily.

I can smell a cop wannabe a mile away, and if or when you make the force, ...I wouldn't be advocating kissing your ass then either. Deal with it.

no, it's you who is not getting. Crowley had to investigate it, Gates had no obligation to assist him, and upon discovering it was Gates home and there was no crime in progress, Crowley should have gotten the hell out. Yes, Gates created the disturbance after the investigation took place, because he was arrested. Had he not done something so stupid as to arrest the man for being justifiably pissed off, none of this would be a topic for discussion. Crowley fucked up, ...and just as Gates promised, he hasn't heard the end of it, ...and neither have you.

I guarantee you Crowley has alot of explaining to do, ...like how false information got into his police report. Info that only lends credibility to Gates, and his version of events. He will have to answer for that. This case has received far too much attention for it to go away unanswered. He will have to answer that. I for one am eagerly awaiting his answer too. 

Jag, you bring race into everything.  Here's an idea, just stop mentioning it.  I guarantee if this guy was white we would not see your presence here in such volume.  Your past experience of being stopped, which you claimed was due to race, and likely other situations that you viewed as racist have clouded your judgment on this issue.  Crowley did his job.  In addition to making this about race, you've also shown yourself to be sexist saying men can't be clear headed.  

Obviously you don't know anything about law enforcement.  He did not need permission or a warrant to enter the home.  If you can't understand that then there is no helping you.  Crowley is hearing about it nonstop because Gates is black and knows Obama.  You think you can do whatever you want in this world but there are rules and people have to follow them, that includes Gates.

Read the link http://www.slate.com/id/2223379/  Knowing you, you will ignore it or say the arrest didn't stick (which is mentioned in the link) but it lays everything out there for you Jag.

[George Whorewell]

That's my point. Unless the officer witnesses it himself, ...or witnesses, signs of a breakin, hears screaming, THAT is probable cause. not some anonymous caller who herself makes it clear she is unsure of what she's seeing, could be nothing at all, and calling on behalf of someone else. Apples and Oranges. The two scenarios are not comparable.

LOLOL ok this explains a lot of your reasoning. That is not probable cause- not as defined by the Supreme Court, by the 4th amednment or by anyone else in America. Probable cause does not require WITNESSING anything, hearing SCREAMING, or any of that crap. Probable cause means more likely then not there is a good faith belief by the officer that criminal activity is taking place. Its like 51% yes versus 49% no. What you are suggesting is definite cause, which any law enforcement type will tell you almost never happens. If police used the jaguar probable cause model, this country would be in complete anarchy and no arrests would ever be made.

This is almost comical, if it were not so mind numbingly stupid. Jag, take some time and invest in some books about criminal law and procedure. Getting your information from law and order isn't cutting it.

[OzmO]

LOLOL ok this explains a lot of your reasoning. That is not probable cause- not as defined by the Supreme Court, by the 4th amednment or by anyone else in America. Probable cause does not require WITNESSING anything, hearing SCREAMING, or any of that crap. Probable cause means more likely then not there is a good faith belief by the officer that criminal activity is taking place. Its like 51% yes versus 49% no. What you are suggesting is definite cause, which any law enforcement type will tell you almost never happens. If police used the jaguar probable cause model, this country would be in complete anarchy and no arrests would ever be made.

This is almost comical, if it were not so mind numbingly stupid. Jag, take some time and invest in some books about criminal law and procedure. Getting your information from law and order isn't cutting it.

Exactly.   She thinks she's a cop and constitutional lawyer. 

 

[24KT]

A competent cop takes claims lightly.

So all of a sudden you are a cop now?   

If thing were done your way there would be run away crime because the police would be powerless to do stuff because jack ass fools like Gates was could just claim stuff.

You catch more criminals that way.  Their bitching is their problem.  Crowley hadn't determine whether or not Gates was a criminal yet and Gates being the fool he is, wasn't helping matters.

He wasn't arrested for B and E.  did you forget that again?  He was arrested for disturbing the peace.  Only a complete jackass could get arrested for that on their own property. 

Only a jackass arrests a man for disorderly conduct on his own property. 

Yeah to those who subject themselves to the news every day.  But then again we didn't give the world "Loverboy"

            Now THAT was just plain outright mean, and uncalled for! 
And if you dare to so much as even mention Platinum Blond or Corey Hart, ...I'll be forced to shoot you.
There'd be no question it'd be considered justifiable homicide in the face of cruel & unusual punishment! 

[OzmO]

            Now THAT was just plain outright mean, and uncalled for! 
And if you dare to so much as even mention Platinum Blond or Corey Hart, ...I'll be forced to shoot you.
There'd be no question it'd be considered justifiable homicide in the face of cruel & unusual punishment! 

 

[24KT]

Jag, you bring race into everything.

I do not!

 Here's an idea, just stop mentioning it.  I guarantee if this guy was white we would not see your presence here in such volume.

Oh that's just priceless.! {lol}

Actually, I would still feel the same way. I doubt you would tho.

Your past experience of being stopped, which you claimed was due to race, and likely other situations that you viewed as racist have clouded your judgment on this issue.

I've never been stopped because of my race that I'm aware of, ...but I have been asked stupid inappropriate questions because of it. What you refer to as having clouded my judgement, could in fact be what most intelligrnt people refer to as experience, ...something that often serves to pin point and clarify ones perspective on a situation.

 Crowley did his job.  In addition to making this about race, you've also shown yourself to be sexist saying men can't be clear headed.  

Crowley did his job, ...STUPIDLY!. Crowley made it about race when alleging something he was not told.
As for men not being clear headed, ...I think you make a far better case for that than any charge I could ever bring.

Obviously you don't know anything about law enforcement.  He did not need permission or a warrant to enter the home.  If you can't understand that then there is no helping you.  Crowley is hearing about it nonstop because Gates is black and knows Obama.  You think you can do whatever you want in this world but there are rules and people have to follow them, that includes Gates.

Read the link http://www.slate.com/id/2223379/  Knowing you, you will ignore it or say the arrest didn't stick (which is mentioned in the link) but it lays everything out there for you Jag.

...that includes Crowley too, ...and when pressed... he had better make sure all his "i's" have been dotted, and all his "t's" have been crossed. So far, ...that doesn't appear to be the case.

[24KT]

Exactly.   She thinks she's a cop and constitutional lawyer. 
 

No, ...but I have played one on TV, ...and I did stay at a Holiday inn Express once... doesn't that count? 

[OzmO]

No, ...but I have played one on TV, ...and I did stay at a Holiday inn Express once... doesn't that count? 

Not in real life.  But had you stayed at a motel 6 in Barstow, California and played cop who's playing a cop on a TV show in a foreign film about cops in the US produced by a food critic it wold totally count.

I applaud the cops actions up to establishing ID and they were with the law.  I don't applaud the arrest which was also with in the law. 

there is nothing that Gates did but embarrass himself.

[24KT]

Not in real life.  But had you stayed at a motel 6 in Barstow, California and played cop who's playing a cop on a TV show in a foreign film about cops in the US produced by a food critic it wold totally count.

Well we can just forget that right now, ...I wouldn't be caught dead in Barstow. 

I applaud the cops actions up to establishing ID and they were with the law.  I don't applaud the arrest which was also with in the law. 

Good Grief! So what the heck are we arguing about? 

there is nothing that Gates did but embarrass himself.

That remains to be seen, afterall, ...Anger has it's place. 

[OzmO]

Well we can just forget that right now, ...I wouldn't be caught dead in Barstow. 

Good Grief! So what the heck are we arguing about? 

That remains to be seen, afterall, ...Anger has it's place. 

I think he lost his cool.  Anger doesn't have it's place when it's not controlled.  Not in any circumstance.  Gates set a bad example for people to follow.

We are arguing about probable cause.  Did Crowley have probable cause to enter Gate's home?  Lets see:

-  Burglary call in progress
-  2 potential suspects
-  Both suspects refusing to cooperate and show ID


Actually thinking about it, they are lucking Crowley didn't subdue them. 

[24KT]

I think he lost his cool.  Anger doesn't have it's place when it's not controlled.  Not in any circumstance.  Gates set a bad example for people to follow.

We are arguing about probable cause.  Did Crowley have probable cause to enter Gate's home?  Lets see:

-  Burglary call in progress
-  2 potential suspects
-  Both suspects refusing to cooperate and show ID


Actually thinking about it, they are lucking Crowley didn't subdue them. 

And who are the two suspects refusing to show ID?

[dkf360]

Does that describe a free country... or a military police state?

I guess your constitution is just a goddamned piece of paper afterall huh? Too bad it wasn't a little softer tho,
...then cops across the country could use it to wipe their asses as literally as they do figuratively.

Regardless of how you view our country, it doesn't change the fact that everything the cop did was legal and Gates was the one who escalated this mess until he was arrested.

[24KT]

Regardless of how you view our country, it doesn't change the fact that everything the cop did was legal and Gates was the one who escalated this mess until he was arrested.

And now the charges against Gates have been dropped, ...but Crowley still has a few questions he needs to clear up.

That's what we call a STUPID arrest!

[OzmO]

And who are the two suspects refusing to show ID?

Unknown until ID is provided.

[dkf360]

And now the charges against Gates have been dropped, ...but Crowley still has a few questions he needs to clear up.

That's what we call a STUPID arrest!

Charges gets dropped all the time. Doesn't negate someone's guilt if this happens.

[24KT]

Unknown until ID is provided.

You didn't answer my question. Who are the two unknown suspects you referenced who refused to show ID?

I think he lost his cool.  Anger doesn't have it's place when it's not controlled.  Not in any circumstance.  Gates set a bad example for people to follow.

We are arguing about probable cause.  Did Crowley have probable cause to enter Gate's home?  Lets see:

-  Burglary call in progress
-  2 potential suspects
-  Both suspects refusing to cooperate and show ID


Actually thinking about it, they are lucking Crowley didn't subdue them. 

Oh that would have been absolutely priceless!!!  I could just see the headlines now:

"Cop assaults distinguished Professor in his own home"

oh ya, ...that would go down well...NOT! You think this is controversial, ...that would be CONTROVERSY¹⁰