Getbig.com: American Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure
Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: James on August 07, 2009, 04:25:51 AM
-
The nation's largest federation of labor organizations has promised to directly engage with boisterous conservative protesters at Democratic town halls during the August recess.
In a memo sent out on Thursday, AFL-CIO President John Sweeney outlined the blueprint for how the union conglomerate would step up recess activities on health care reform and other topics pertinent to the labor community. The document makes clear that Obama allies view the town hall forums as ground zero of the health care debate. It also uses the specter of the infamous 2000 recount "Brooks Brothers" protest to rally its members to the administration's side.
"The principal battleground in the campaign will be town hall meetings and other gatherings with members of Congress in their home districts," reads the memo. "We want your help to organize major union participation to counter the right-wing "Tea-Party Patriots" who will try to disrupt those meetings, as they've been trying to do to meetings for the last month. ...
(Remember the hooligans - many of them Republican Congressional staff - who harassed Florida vote counters in 2000? We can't let that happen again!)."
A showdown between unions and grassroots conservative organizations could make for an August full of fireworks, with even more dysfunctional town hall meetings. The AFL-CIO is planning to target 50 "high priority districts," in addition to organizing telephone town hall gatherings.
But while the union conglomerate seems poised to flex its political muscle on Obama's behalf, it may find some friction on the policy front. Detailed in Sweeney's memo are certain legislative priorities that are clearly at odds with what seems likely to be produced in the Senate Finance Committee's compromise bill.
Sweeney describes it as a "requirement that ALL employers 'pay or play,'" that the final bill have "a robust public health insurance plan to compete with private insurers and drive down health costs," and that the legislation contain "relief for company/union funds providing pre-Medicare retiree coverage, and no taxation of health benefits!"
The AFL-CIO also promises to "Redouble our efforts on Capitol Hill against taxation of benefits OF ANY KIND, for including ALL businesses in the requirement to provide coverage, and for a robust public health insurance plan option."
According to reports on Thursday, the Senate Finance Committee is considering compromise legislation that will contain no public option for insurance and would tax health-care benefits of the most generous plans.
UPDATE: AFL-CIO Secretary Treasurer Richard Trumka sends out a scathing statement about the town halls, hitting on Sweeney's themes and calling the events corporate funded.
Every American has the inalienable right to participate in our democratic process. Our politics is passionate, heartfelt and often loud -- as was the founding of our nation. But that is not what the corporate-funded mobs are engaging in when they show up to disrupt town halls held by members of Congress.
Major health care reform is closer than ever to passage and it is no secret that special interests want to weaken or block it. These mobs are not there to participate. As their own strategy memo states, they have been sent by their corporate and lobbyist bankrollers to disrupt, heckle and block meaningful debate. This is a desperation move, meant to slow the momentum for change.
Mob rule is not democracy. People have a democratic right to express themselves and our elected leaders have a right to hear from their constituents -- not organized thugs whose sole purpose is to shut down the conversation and attempt to scare our leaders into inaction
-
And everyone says I dont know what I'm talking about.
This entire fiasco is going to get very ugly very fast.
-
(http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/4250/obamaliberalfascism.jpg)
-
James, where does it say that Obama is asking for help?
Another thing... What is liberal fascism?
-
James, where does it say that Obama is asking for help?
Another thing... What is liberal fascism?
Read Jonah Goldberg's Book.
He explains it in great detail.
-
Read Jonah Goldberg's Book.
He explains it in great detail.
I'm not interested in Goldberg's definition.
I'm interested in how James defines it.
-
I'm not interested in Goldberg's definition.
I'm interested in how James defines it.
There are so many examples lately Hedge its not even funny.
-
There are so many examples lately Hedge its not even funny.
Like what?
-
Like what?
First is mind control of the youth and telling everyone what to believe.
For example - if you are against gay marriage - you hate gays and are homophobic.
If you are against affirmative action - you are racist and hate minorities.
If you are against illegal immigration you are xenophobic and hate brown people.
If you are religious - you are a nut.
Second what comes to mind are hate crimes laws.
Third, without a doubt is the nanny state mentality of liberals who want to dictate how we live in every area of our lives whether it be toilet bowls, light bulbs, green nonsense, etc. The Cap & Trade bill is perfect example of this.
There are so many others I will get to this later.
The left accuses the right of what itself is guilty of.
Other than abortion and gay marriage, the left is far more totalitarian and tyrannical than the right.
-
Mind control of youth. That's rich. ::)
-
Mind control of youth. That's rich. ::)
More examples:
If you support the second amendment you are a redneck nut.
If you dont support the govt funding of the NEA - you hate art.
If you are against welfare payments to able bodied people - you hate poor people.
And on and on and on.
-
Union Thugs at work again !
-
Union Thugs at work again !
Wow just wow.
The left wing thug machine is out in force. Notice how things only get violent when union thugs show up? Then they blame granny for the mess because she dare voice her opinion at the elected rep??
Unreal. I seriously hope one of these overpaid underworked goons gets in my face just once.
Unions are a farce and need to be disbanded as a criminal enterprise. SEIU is a perfect example of where RICO needs to be enforced.
-
First is mind control of the youth and telling everyone what to believe.
For example - if you are against gay marriage - you hate gays and are homophobic.
If you are against affirmative action - you are racist and hate minorities.
If you are against illegal immigration you are xenophobic and hate brown people.
If you are religious - you are a nut.
Second what comes to mind are hate crimes laws.
Third, without a doubt is the nanny state mentality of liberals who want to dictate how we live in every area of our lives whether it be toilet bowls, light bulbs, green nonsense, etc. The Cap & Trade bill is perfect example of this.
There are so many others I will get to this later.
The left accuses the right of what itself is guilty of.
Other than abortion and gay marriage, the left is far more totalitarian and tyrannical than the right.
I see nothing of this as a liberal fascist combination.
It could be considered intolerant of those who are not "politically correct", yes. It might be to some.
But there's nothing "liberal fascist" about this.
Liberalism and Fascism are two totally different ideologies.
Fascism is traditionally considered to be anti-intellectualist, anti-minorities (look at how the gypsies were treated in Italy during WWII) and pro-police state.
Liberalism is everything that Fascism is not.
-
The use of the term "liberal" is very different from its classical definition.
So has the term fascism. I think Jonah Goldbergs point is that liberals will not allow for any dissent without labeling the person in a way designed to shut them down.
Sort of like what happens when conservatives give speeches at colleges etc.
BTW - liberals are the least tolerant people IMHO.
-
The use of the term "liberal" is very different from its classical definition.
So has the term fascism. I think Jonah Goldbergs point is that liberals will not allow for any dissent without labeling the person in a way designed to shut them down.
Sort of like what happens when conservatives give speeches at colleges etc.
BTW - liberals are the least tolerant people IMHO.
So basically it's a made up term with buzz words that you like to sh*tcan around whenever you can?
-
So basically it's a made up term with buzz words that you like to sh*tcan around whenever you can?
Talk to Johnah Goldberg. He wrote the book, not me.
By the way, your union thug buddies are real tough beating up old people. Lazy punks.
-
Talk to Johnah Goldberg. He wrote the book, not me.
By the way, your union thug buddies are real tough beating up old people. Lazy punks.
This might give you some cognitive dissonance. WalMart supports Obama's plan.
Now I know you dislike anything the government does, especially when it inures to the benefit of the poor or middle class, but unions give a voice to those types of people.
They don't hire thugs and legbreakers like big insurance does...harkens back to the union busters....remember those?
I see unions as counteracting the active disinformation campaign by big insurance and the republican party.
I mean just look at the bullshit that meathead Sarah Palin wrote--'death panel'....I see she quoted herself.
If it weren't for lies and intimidation tactics, the republican party would have no health insurance strategy.
-
No, 33336. That wasn't the Union thugs acting badly, that was the police behaving badly. ;D
Seriously though, the union is full of morons so it doesn't surprise they would do this kind of stuff. They counter people arguing their point about politics with violence. If the unions didn't get all their handouts they would support a different party.
-
Union fags ganging up on people.I saw one union "women" slam a camera in someones face.Eventually one of these union queers will get stomped to death then Obama will say its the rights fault.
-
Union fags ganging up on people.I saw one union "women" slam a camera in someones face.Eventually one of these union queers will get stomped to death then Obama will say its the rights fault.
Good point!
-
Good point!
Unions, especially in NY, are directly responsible for insane building and construction costs, which in turn leads to higher rents, costs and inflation.
Unions have one role - get paid more for doing less.
-
Unions, especially in NY, are directly responsible for insane building and construction costs, which in turn leads to higher rents, costs and inflation.
Unions have one role - get paid more for doing less.
Exactly. Paying a livable wage is too much!
These fucking union maggots should work for food. Even that's too good for the privilege of working!
We can't maximize the profits of the capitalist if we don't break unions.
It's really as simple as that.
-
Exactly. Paying a livable wage is too much!
These fucking union maggots should work for food. Even that's too good for the privilege of working!
We can't maximize the profits of the capitalist if we don't break unions.
It's really as simple as that.
You are paying higher wages, but hurting others.
-
Unions, especially in NY, are directly responsible for insane building and construction costs, which in turn leads to higher rents, costs and inflation.
Unions have one role - get paid more for doing less.
You thinking big business is all innocent is just disgusting. Why don't we talk about how these unions wouldn't even exist or wouldn't stand a chance at existing IF BUSINESS COMPENSTATED WORKERS FAIRLY. Business brought the problems that gave power to unions in the first place. Love to see you deny this so we can see a little more of your true colors. And what's the first thing business would do without a union threat out there? You're a fool if you think they wouldn't slowly chop and whittle away at anything resembling fair compensation. I know unions have their own corruptions but that's irrelevant to the point I'm making.
-
You thinking big business is all innocent is just disgusting. Why don't we talk about how these unions wouldn't even exist or wouldn't stand a chance at existing IF BUSINESS COMPENSTATED WORKERS FAIRLY. Business brought the problems that gave power to unions in the first place. Love to see you deny this so we can see a little more of your true colors. And what's the first thing business would do without a union threat out there? You're a fool if you think they wouldn't slowly chop and whittle away at anything resembling fair compensation. I know unions have their own corruptions but that's irrelevant to the point I'm making.
What is a "fair wage"???
-
Unions artificially manipulate wages above what the market dictates. Unions are for losers who blame others for their lack of an education and other personal shortcomings. It must suck to rely on other to provide. But it also must be nice to blame others for your lack of good fortune.
-
And everyone says I dont know what I'm talking about.
This entire fiasco is going to get very ugly very fast.
Do you mean like death threats against elected officials and brownshirt rallies at town hall meetings?
That type of ugly?
-
Do you mean like death threats against elected officials and brownshirt rallies at town hall meetings?
That type of ugly?
Yes. And the brownshirts are those SEIU punks sent by the WH.
-
What is a "fair wage"???
What is a fair wage to business and what would be the change in that answer 5, 10, 15 years down the road with no union or collective barganing abilities? That's the real question bubba and you're delusional if you paint a pretty picture for the workers.
-
And everyone says I dont know what I'm talking about.
oh yea, lol at this comment; dude, you tell that to others here more than anyone. You've included it in quite a few of your posts.
-
It's no wonder I stay out of threads like this. :D
-
What is a fair wage to business and what would be the change in that answer 5, 10, 15 years down the road with no union or collective barganing abilities? That's the real question bubba and you're delusional if you paint a pretty picture for the workers.
Do you want the truth or do you want feel good nonsense?
The reality is that a worker who does not add value or skills cannot expect automatic raises just because of time spent there.
In private business, certain jobs have a certain values placed on them and thats that. For example - a assistant secretary is never going to make 100k a year, whether shes been there for 1 year or 100 years. Private business, unlike the govt, is accountable to reality.
Second, if you want another culprit, look at the devaluation of the dollar. We dont have nearly the same purcahsing power and the same wages do not go as far. But guess what? Most small businesses do not make huges amounts of money and cant afford to keep increasing wages to offset the inflation and destruction of the dollar.
If a person wants higher wages, they have to improve their skills and/or become indespensible to the business where they work.
Or, they can always form their own business, pay themselves what they believe is a "fair wage" and stop crying about "the man".
-
Unions artificially manipulate wages above what the market dictates. Unions are for losers who blame others for their lack of an education and other personal shortcomings. It must suck to rely on other to provide. But it also must be nice to blame others for your lack of good fortune.
Unions bargain with management. Bargaining means negotiation.
Where is it written that market considerations are excluded from bargaining?
Sounds like more rightwing pablum to me.
As for your other comments....good luck.
-
Unions bargain with management. Bargaining means negotiation.
Where is it written that market considerations are excluded from bargaining?
Sounds like more rightwing pablum to me.
As for your other comments....good luck.
Unions are crap!!!I dont need a fucking union negotiating my wage or benefits for me.I also resent ANYONE stealing my money by forcing me to join something I hate,then sending my money to a scum bag like Obama.Thanks,but no thanks.I left both the teamsters and AFL-CIO and have never been happier I did.
-
You thinking big business is all innocent is just disgusting. Why don't we talk about how these unions wouldn't even exist or wouldn't stand a chance at existing IF BUSINESS COMPENSTATED WORKERS FAIRLY. Business brought the problems that gave power to unions in the first place. Love to see you deny this so we can see a little more of your true colors. And what's the first thing business would do without a union threat out there? You're a fool if you think they wouldn't slowly chop and whittle away at anything resembling fair compensation. I know unions have their own corruptions but that's irrelevant to the point I'm making.
If you dont like it,here is an idea.START YOUR OWN BUISINESS!!!!
-
Unions are crap!!!I dont need a fucking union negotiating my wage or benefits for me.I also resent ANYONE stealing my money by forcing me to join something I hate,then sending my money to a scum bag like Obama.Thanks,but no thanks.I left both the teamsters and AFL-CIO and have never been happier I did.
Good for you!
It's a free country.
Live the dream.
-
If you dont like it,here is an idea.START YOUR OWN BUISINESS!!!!
WTF? How is this a reply to my post? I've been happily self employed since 2000, thanks for asking I guess.
-
Do you want the truth or do you want feel good nonsense?
The reality is that a worker who does not add value or skills cannot expect automatic raises just because of time spent there.
In private business, certain jobs have a certain values placed on them and thats that. For example - a assistant secretary is never going to make 100k a year, whether shes been there for 1 year or 100 years. Private business, unlike the govt, is accountable to reality.
Second, if you want another culprit, look at the devaluation of the dollar. We dont have nearly the same purcahsing power and the same wages do not go as far. But guess what? Most small businesses do not make huges amounts of money and cant afford to keep increasing wages to offset the inflation and destruction of the dollar.
If a person wants higher wages, they have to improve their skills and/or become indespensible to the business where they work.
Or, they can always form their own business, pay themselves what they believe is a "fair wage" and stop crying about "the man".
you amaze me... I think you gave me option 3, "bla bla bla... bla bla... bla bla bla..."
-
you amaze me... I think you gave me option 3, "bla bla bla... bla bla... bla bla bla..."
I work for myself too, and started my own business because I refuse to be part of the corporate cog myself. I employ two people. They get a wage, but they get good bonuses for good results. They produce, they get rewarded. Thats how it is.
-
WTF? How is this a reply to my post? I've been happily self employed since 2000, thanks for asking I guess.
If some employee doesnt like the wages his company pays and wants a union in there to get him a better wage.Why not just leave,start your own company and then YOU can pay what you want.Companies pay what they think they can afford to pay and still make a profit.Unions dont give a flying fuck if the company makes money or not.
-
I work for myself too, and started my own business because I refuse to be part of the corporate cog myself. I employ two people. They get a wage, but they get good bonuses for good results. They produce, they get rewarded. Thats how it is.
you really can't address what we're talking about then from the business perspective. You're a small business with 2 employees. I don't think it's even possible for you to have a union threat. I mean 2 employees man, they're either going to work for you or not and everything is solidly on the table from day one. both parties know the score. There's not really any room for some assholes 4 states away to fuck them over in their jobs. What would you do if your two came to you and said they voted a union in... haha... oh brother... You certainly can't talk to us here from a perspective of a big business that employs many people. I know you think you're all that and I'm happy you make over 250,000 but jesus, get over yourself man...
-
you really can't address what we're talking about then from the business perspective. You're a small business with 2 employees. I don't think it's even possible for you to have a union threat. I mean 2 employees man, they're either going to work for you or not and everything is solidly on the table from day one. both parties know the score. There's not really any room for some assholes 4 states away to fuck them over in their jobs. What would you do if your two came to you and said they voted a union in... haha... oh brother... You certainly can't talk to us here from a perspective of a big business that employs many people. I know you think you're all that and I'm happy you make over 250,000 but jesus, get over yourself man...
Most of my buisness clients fall under these issues.
-
Most of my business clients fall under these issues.
under what issues? Union? Look, I'm right, big business is entirely responsible for the birth and rise of unions. If they want someone to blame, they need only look in a mirror. What makes you so sure that over time, with no collective bargaining, things wouldn't return to the atmosphere for workers that created unions in the first place? I would say, you could say, government, but that's a joke since a bulk of politicians on both sides are controlled by big business and likely will be for the forseeable future.
-
under what issues? Union? Look, I'm right, big business is entirely responsible for the birth and rise of unions. If they want someone to blame, they need only look in a mirror. What makes you so sure that over time, with no collective bargaining, things wouldn't return to the atmosphere for workers that created unions in the first place? I would say, you could say, government, but that's a joke since a bulk of politicians on both sides are controlled by big business and likely will be for the forseeable future.
Hugo - the devaluation and undermining of the dollar also has a huge impact ehre which I dont think you are taking into account.
A person now needs to make a much larger wage just to keep pace because his paycheck does not go as far.
However, while you can force businesses to pay certain levels of wages, you cant force businesses to make a certain amount of money in the marketplace.
Im not talking about huge businesses, but your run of the mill small to medium sized business that itself is under pressure through the dollars' devaluation and loss of purchasing power.
-
Hugo - the devaluation and undermining of the dollar also has a huge impact ehre which I dont think you are taking into account.
A person now needs to make a much larger wage just to keep pace because his paycheck does not go as far.
However, while you can force businesses to pay certain levels of wages, you cant force businesses to make a certain amount of money in the marketplace.
Im not talking about huge businesses, but your run of the mill small to medium sized business that itself is under pressure through the dollars' devaluation and loss of purchasing power.
you're clearly not on the same page as me. I don't know if you're doing it on purpose to avoid debate or you're just clueless? This is yet another strange reply to what I posted. I guess you don't want to address the points I make and instead toss a red herring into the mix. seriously, this is your reply to my post? really? Do you understand the concept of what I'm saying? If so please explain what I'm saying in your words and then tell me how this reply addesses that? That way I can know if you get what I'm saying or you're avoiding what I'm saying or you just want to focus on what you want to say.
-
you're clearly not on the same page as me. I don't know if you're doing it on purpose to avoid debate or you're just clueless? This is yet another strange reply to what I posted. I guess you don't want to address the points I make and instead toss a red herring into the mix. seriously, this is your reply to my post? really? Do you understand the concept of what I'm saying? If so please explain what I'm saying in your words and then tell me how this reply addesses that? That way I can know if you get what I'm saying or you're avoiding what I'm saying or you just want to focus on what you want to say.
I agree with you that the robber baron tactics and child labor situation gave rise to the union movement.
It was not a red herring I said to you. You said that unions demand "fair wages". The reason their present wages are not sufficient is not ewntirely he fault of the evil company that employs them, but the fact that their present wage does not go as far as it used to.
What I am telling you is that they are only looking at half of the equation, and often times the wrong half.
-
I agree with you that the robber baron tactics and child labor situation gave rise to the union movement.
It was not a red herring I said to you. You said that unions demand "fair wages". The reason their present wages are not sufficient is not ewntirely he fault of the evil company that employs them, but the fact that their present wage does not go as far as it used to.
What I am telling you is that they are only looking at half of the equation, and often times the wrong half.
Let me just ask you one question at a time:
1st thing I want to know: Do you think that Unions should have never been created? Just do me a favor and directly answer that question and explain why.
-
Let me just ask you one question at a time:
1st thing I want to know: Do you think that Unions should have never been created? Just do me a favor and directly answer that question and explain why.
In a theorectical sense no. In a practical sense, yes.
-
In a theorectical sense no. In a practical sense, yes.
I assume then that you support the creation of unions siding for the practical over theory, correct me if I'm wrong. ok, second question: At what point in American History would it have been practical for you to end the practice of unions? Keep in mind with this question that we have a government TODAY that works more for the corporations than it does for the citizens. I don't even think you would argue against that.
-
I assume then that you support the creation of unions siding for the practical over theory, correct me if I'm wrong. ok, second question: At what point in American History would it have been practical for you to end the practice of unions? Keep in mind with this question that we have a government TODAY that works more for the corporations than it does for the citizens. I don't even think you would argue against that.
At the time the Unions were formed we did not have the DOL as it is today, EEOC, State Departments of Labor, OSHA, etc. So in my mind, the unions were succesful in their campaign by virtue of the creation of all of these things, but we dont need both at the same time.
The government works fior itself and the largets corps, not the middle and small ones. Look at GE and GS and that is all you need to know.
-
At the time the Unions were formed we did not have the DOL as it is today, EEOC, State Departments of Labor, OSHA, etc. So in my mind, the unions were succesful in their campaign by virtue of the creation of all of these things, but we dont need both at the same time.
The government works fior itself and the largets corps, not the middle and small ones. Look at GE and GS and that is all you need to know.
Now this is where we disagree. So you think government is sufficient. You actually do believe the gov works more for the people than the corporation. This is just not the case. Corporations don't have a sense of right and wrong. They don't have a conscience. Oh they might have a statement of values and ethics for the public, but we all know full well how often those are completely ignored. Those statements are for PR only. What I'm getting at here is that the corporation always always pushes the limit for the bottom line. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain by pushing. We both know they have people who work full time at doing nothing but moving barriers to the bottom line out of the way. Nothing in government is off limits to their attempts. They're like a virus, like a terminator. They will not stop.
You know how the NRA, as a collective group has influence over politicians. It's the same way with Unions. Many people with one voice. Without the numbers coming together, who do you think would get their way in Washington over time? Big business or blue collar workers? So I go to my third question: with no unions, what makes you think that the corporations would not push and push and push and push until once again the American worker found themselves in a terrible place?
balance of power
-
I dont know, I have to mull on that question.
I dont like the huge multi national corps like GS and GE. The Cap & Trade scam is ap erfect example of where this is going and who it benefits.
yopu and I are going to get royally screwed on that one.
-
Now this is where we disagree. So you think government is sufficient. You actually do believe the gov works more for the people than the corporation. This is just not the case. Corporations don't have a sense of right and wrong. They don't have a conscience. Oh they might have a statement of values and ethics for the public, but we all know full well how often those are completely ignored. Those statements are for PR only. What I'm getting at here is that the corporation always always pushes the limit for the bottom line. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain by pushing. We both know they have people who work full time at doing nothing but moving barriers to the bottom line out of the way. Nothing in government is off limits to their attempts. They're like a virus, like a terminator. They will not stop.
You know how the NRA, as a collective group has influence over politicians. It's the same way with Unions. Many people with one voice. Without the numbers coming together, who do you think would get their way in Washington over time? Big business or blue collar workers? So I go to my third question: with no unions, what makes you think that the corporations would not push and push and push and push until once again the American worker found themselves in a terrible place?
balance of power
About 12% of the people who are employed in this country are in unions.How in the world do you think ALL the other workers and companies survive and thrive day after day after day without them.Unions are an outdated force.There is no need for them.The private sector takes care of wages and benefits.If the company sucks,they will get poor quality workers,if they pay a good wage and have good benefits they will attract good workers.
-
About 12% of the people who are employed in this country are in unions.How in the world do you think ALL the other workers and companies survive and thrive day after day after day without them.Unions are an outdated force.There is no need for them.The private sector takes care of wages and benefits.If the company sucks,they will get poor quality workers,if they pay a good wage and have good benefits they will attract good workers.
The biggest problem with Unions is in the public sector. There is no reason whatever that government workers should be unionizing against the taxpayer.
-
About 12% of the people who are employed in this country are in unions.How in the world do you think ALL the other workers and companies survive and thrive day after day after day without them.Unions are an outdated force.There is no need for them.The private sector takes care of wages and benefits.If the company sucks,they will get poor quality workers,if they pay a good wage and have good benefits they will attract good workers.
So way more members than the NRA has. Since you're addressing my post, you help make my point. I know for a fact that a lot of workers ride off the back of unions without being unionized. Don't think for a second that non unionized workers don't benefit from unions. They do. If that threat wasn't on the horizon for that company, I guarantee decisions handed down from corporate would often be very different for the workers. I know that's an absolute fact.
-
So way more members than the NRA has. Since you're addressing my post, you help make my point. I know for a fact that a lot of workers ride off the back of unions without being unionized. Don't think for a second that non unionized workers don't benefit from unions. They do. If that threat wasn't on the horizon for that company, I guarantee decisions handed down from corporate would often be very different for the workers. I know that's an absolute fact.
You obviously dont understand companies.They dont fear ANYTHING.If the company unionises,they still have to have collectively bargained contracts.The company doesnt have to give in.The union can threaten to strike,the company can just hire temps.The problem with most American workers is they think companies will fold if they arent there.There are 50 just like you out there waiting to take your spot.Strike,they just replace you with temps,the company goes on,your out of a job.Companies will hire temps,to take your place and probably get much more productivity then they EVER would from a union worker and pay less money ,give no benefits and have a better bottom line.
-
You obviously dont understand companies.They dont fear ANYTHING.If the company unionises,they still have to have collectively bargained contracts.The company doesnt have to give in.The union can threaten to strike,the company can just hire temps.The problem with most American workers is they think companies will fold if they arent there.There are 50 just like you out there waiting to take your spot.Strike,they just replace you with temps,the company goes on,your out of a job.Companies will hire temps,to take your place and probably get much more productivity then they EVER would from a union worker and pay less money ,give no benefits and have a better bottom line.
well, what you just said is an outright lie. You're just flat out wrong. I know for a personal fact that there are large companies that do adjust their compensation/wages because of the union threat. I have no doubt of this and I know it to be true. Is that so with every company, I'm sure not. But I know of large companies that it is absolutely true of.
-
well, what you just said is an outright lie. You're just flat out wrong. I know for a personal fact that there are large companies that do adjust their compensation/wages because of the union threat. I have no doubt of this and I know it to be true. Is that so with every company, I'm sure not. But I know of large companies that it is absolutely true of.
Sometimes they have to pay prevailing wage instead of having a union.
-
Sometimes they have to pay prevailing wage instead of having a union.
Ok... I'll explain exactly what I'm talking about. Lets take wal-mart for example. Unions are a big concern for them but they don't really give a shit about them, like Billy said. If an entire store votes in a union, Wal-mart is so big, they'll just shut down the store. They've done that shit before. But now let's say we have a business which is extracting a regional resource. Big company, many employees. They can't just shut down their opperation and they do often compensate with possible unionization as a factor. I absolutely know there are many curcumstances where this happens. I even know of times where a company started to fuck employees and where the employees dropped the hint. A card left in front of a door, a rumor... And boom, they back off when the threat looks possible. It depends on a lot of things but it does happen and more often than Billy would have you think. My statement that there are many non union workers that benefit from unions being there is absolutely true.
-
Hugo's right about this. I used to work for a trucking company when I was much younger. We were the only company that was non-union and the unions were constantly at the entrance trying to recruit members to turn the company. Voting took place several times and when the union managed to start getting some serious support, suddenly our top wages went up and in-line with those paid at the union companies.
Unions definetely have problems, but they also definetely help to keep wages up.
-
Hugo's right about this. I used to work for a trucking company when I was much younger. We were the only company that was non-union and the unions were constantly at the entrance trying to recruit members to turn the company. Voting took place several times and when the union managed to start getting some serious support, suddenly our top wages went up and in-line with those paid at the union companies.
Unions definetely have problems, but they also definetely help to keep wages up.
Yeah but for all intents and purposes the auto unions got high pay for uneducated people doing jobs you could train a monkey to do. My dad told me stories about how they would not buy cars made on Mondays because they were afraid the workers were hungover on Monday and would make a shit vehicle. Apparently people still do that.
I think it's funny how all of a sudden engaging in protests is un-American to liberals. When it is on their terms it is okay but now it's wrong. Give me a break.
-
Yeah but for all intents and purposes the auto unions got high pay for uneducated people doing jobs you could train a monkey to do. My dad told me stories about how they would not buy cars made on Mondays because they were afraid the workers were hungover on Monday and would make a shit vehicle. Apparently people still do that.
I think it's funny how all of a sudden engaging in protests is un-American to liberals. When it is on their terms it is okay but now it's wrong. Give me a break.
wait, so a guy that didn't have the same opportunities as some rich fucker, but works his ass off to support his family despite any downfalls deserves less pay? OH MY GOD this post makes me sick to my stomach. unreal...
Also engaging in protests is not un-American. Shutting down and preventing the process is un-American. There's a huge difference. Not to mention when any liberal group has done this, they get their asses hauled out in short order. But you fuckers are demanding your right to stand there and disrupt and prevent events from taking place. Nice hypocrisy... These people are not demanding that their voices be heard at the meetings, they're demanding their voice is the only voice heard at the meetings. Unreal cap, really....
-
wait, so a guy that didn't have the same opportunities as some rich fucker, but works his ass off to support his family despite any downfalls deserves less pay? OH MY GOD this post makes me sick to my stomach. unreal...
Also engaging in protests is not un-American. Shutting down and preventing the process is un-American. There's a huge difference. Not to mention when any liberal group has done this, they get their asses hauled out in short order. But you fuckers are demanding your right to stand there and disrupt and prevent events from taking place. Nice hypocrisy... These people are not demanding that their voices be heard at the meetings, they're demanding their voice is the only voice heard at the meetings. Unreal cap, really....
Hugo - there is simple math involved. A line worker in a plant is not going to make as much as doctor or engineer.
Of course it is best if the guy can make a wage to support his family, but that is not the same as to say that he should be deserving of the same wage as someone highly skilled in some other trade or profession.
-
Hugo - there is simple math involved. A line worker in a plant is not going to make as much as doctor or engineer.
Of course it is best if the guy can make a wage to support his family, but that is not the same as to say that he should be deserving of the same wage as someone highly skilled in some other trade or profession.
that's not what I said ::) I'm not a communist or something ::)
-
that's not what I said ::) I'm not a communist or something ::)
This is what you said:
wait, so a guy that didn't have the same opportunities as some rich fucker, but works his ass off to support his family despite any downfalls deserves less pay? OH MY GOD this post makes me sick to my stomach. unreal...
Maybe I was confused by what you wrote there, but it seems to me like you were arguing that both should get the same wage?
-
This is what you said:
wait, so a guy that didn't have the same opportunities as some rich fucker, but works his ass off to support his family despite any downfalls deserves less pay? OH MY GOD this post makes me sick to my stomach. unreal...
Maybe I was confused by what you wrote there, but it seems to me like you were arguing that both should get the same wage?
yes you're confused and maybe I could have stated it differently. I don't think a laborer should be paid the same as a "highly skilled professional." Just guessing but that would mean I am saying laborers should be making a few hundred dollars an hour and maybe more. What I am saying is that someone who gives the best part of their life to a company deserves fair compensation. I'm saying his hard work has value. I'm saying the countless hours of his life given to the company has value. I'm saying, for what he does, the value of that sacrifice to the company shouldn't be any less because he didn't have the good fortune to be handed an easier path through life. A hell of a lot of Americans have worked their asses off and at a minimum they should be able to live a decent life. Have a house, be able to provide for a family and every once in a while be able to afford to take a break and enjoy life. What I've been telling you is that, left up to the corporations of America alone, they would chip away at those things slowly and surely. Unions have lost power. Some of it is their own fault, but much of it is a direct result of corporate influence. Go look at the charts over the last 40 years or so and tell me what you see in regards to CEO compensation/pay vs. the worker. It's absolutely sickening. Here you are blaming the downfall of companies on the worker while the CEO's pay goes up 500% or some shit. And yes, I know there have been abuses union wise by lazy ass people. But that is not the rule. By far Americans are willing to work hard. Another thing that's wrong is the loss of loyalty for the company. When the worker looks up at the CEO making that kind of UNWARRANTED income at THEIR expense and also goes through years of the company fighting them. There is no loyatly to work hard for the company. Now I've seen businesses featured that treat their employees good and the result is amazing. Just to bad there are so few companies that put value in their employees past being stupid worker drones.
-
yes you're confused and maybe I could have stated it differently. I don't think a laborer should be paid the same as a "highly skilled professional." Just guessing but that would mean I am saying laborers should be making a few hundred dollars an hour and maybe more. What I am saying is that someone who gives the best part of their life to a company deserves fair compensation. I'm saying his hard work has value. I'm saying the countless hours of his life given to the company has value. I'm saying, for what he does, the value of that sacrifice to the company shouldn't be any less because he didn't have the good fortune to be handed an easier path through life. A hell of a lot of Americans have worked their asses off and at a minimum they should be able to live a decent life. Have a house, be able to provide for a family and every once in a while be able to afford to take a break and enjoy life. What I've been telling you is that, left up to the corporations of America alone, they would chip away at those things slowly and surely. Unions have lost power. Some of it is their own fault, but much of it is a direct result of corporate influence. Go look at the charts over the last 40 years or so and tell me what you see in regards to CEO compensation/pay vs. the worker. It's absolutely sickening. Here you are blaming the downfall of companies on the worker while the CEO's pay goes up 500% or some shit. And yes, I know there have been abuses union wise by lazy ass people. But that is not the rule. By far Americans are willing to work hard. Another thing that's wrong is the loss of loyalty for the company. When the worker looks up at the CEO making that kind of UNWARRANTED income at THEIR expense and also goes through years of the company fighting them. There is no loyatly to work hard for the company. Now I've seen businesses featured that treat their employees good and the result is amazing. Just to bad there are so few companies that put value in their employees past being stupid worker drones.
Hugo - a lot of what you are talking about has a lot to do with the lack of purchasing power of the dollar.
My grandfather came here from Italy and worked for years as tailor in a small dry cleaners. On his meager salary he was able to raise a family and have a small house in the Bronx, NY. He never made big money.
During those times, people had a lot more purchasing power with what they made so that most people could afford to take care of themselves.
Additionally, the tax burden was a lot lighter in terms of.FICA, property taxes, etc.
That is not the case now.
The dollar has no value and that is why people are falling behind. You want to blame the evil corporations, fine, but you simply cannot ignore the fact that it takes a ton more dollars now just to keep pace due to inflation, taxes, and the loss of purchasing power of the dollar.
-
wait, so a guy that didn't have the same opportunities as some rich fucker, but works his ass off to support his family despite any downfalls deserves less pay? OH MY GOD this post makes me sick to my stomach. unreal...
Also engaging in protests is not un-American. Shutting down and preventing the process is un-American. There's a huge difference. Not to mention when any liberal group has done this, they get their asses hauled out in short order. But you fuckers are demanding your right to stand there and disrupt and prevent events from taking place. Nice hypocrisy... These people are not demanding that their voices be heard at the meetings, they're demanding their voice is the only voice heard at the meetings. Unreal cap, really....
I didn't say that they should make nothing but their pay and pensions for what they do is ridiculous. You automatically assume that they were put down by "the system". Give me a break. From what I hear about the auto-unions they don't work very hard.
Liberals protest everything and they've done so with violent unions, illegal immigrant mobs that turn violent, etc. The groups that are protesting are comprised of both Dems and Repubs and they are making sure their representatives know they will lose votes if they pass the crap known as universal health care.
-
yes you're confused and maybe I could have stated it differently. I don't think a laborer should be paid the same as a "highly skilled professional." Just guessing but that would mean I am saying laborers should be making a few hundred dollars an hour and maybe more. What I am saying is that someone who gives the best part of their life to a company deserves fair compensation. I'm saying his hard work has value. I'm saying the countless hours of his life given to the company has value. I'm saying, for what he does, the value of that sacrifice to the company shouldn't be any less because he didn't have the good fortune to be handed an easier path through life. A hell of a lot of Americans have worked their asses off and at a minimum they should be able to live a decent life. Have a house, be able to provide for a family and every once in a while be able to afford to take a break and enjoy life. What I've been telling you is that, left up to the corporations of America alone, they would chip away at those things slowly and surely. Unions have lost power. Some of it is their own fault, but much of it is a direct result of corporate influence. Go look at the charts over the last 40 years or so and tell me what you see in regards to CEO compensation/pay vs. the worker. It's absolutely sickening. Here you are blaming the downfall of companies on the worker while the CEO's pay goes up 500% or some shit. And yes, I know there have been abuses union wise by lazy ass people. But that is not the rule. By far Americans are willing to work hard. Another thing that's wrong is the loss of loyalty for the company. When the worker looks up at the CEO making that kind of UNWARRANTED income at THEIR expense and also goes through years of the company fighting them. There is no loyatly to work hard for the company. Now I've seen businesses featured that treat their employees good and the result is amazing. Just to bad there are so few companies that put value in their employees past being stupid worker drones.
This is why unions suck!!!You dont get paid for your hard work.The hard worker gets paid the same as the non-productive worker.If ALL companies would go back to incentive only pay,then ,those who produced would get what they deserved and those that didnt wouldnt make a decent wage.
I worked in a place[still do,but they went away from incentive work and went to straight hourly wage and its killing productivity]where you used to get a base pay of 12.00 an hour.You then got paid in levels of 75%-100%[anything lower then 75,you were out].If you worked at 100% you could make 16.00 an hour.However,if you worked at over 100% your pay would go up as well.It got to the point that I was making 25.00 an hour,plus overtime,doing basic wharehouse work.
If we were union,we would all be making 15.00 an hour,no matter how hard you worked or didnt work.THATS the problem with unions.Everyone is the same,the only way you get more is to last a long time.
-
The biggest problem with Unions is in the public sector. There is no reason whatever that government workers should be unionizing against the taxpayer.
The biggest problems with unions is your face.
-
The biggest problems with unions is your face.
Brilliant commentary.
-
Brilliant commentary.
You smell like crap. Here's a thought: brush your teeth.
-
You smell like crap. Here's a thought: brush your teeth.
I'm terrified.
-
I'm terrified.
Apparently you're not terrified of plaque, buddy boy.
-
Apparently you're not terrified of plaque, buddy boy.
Drinking again?
-
I wish. They won't let me drink here.
-
The biggest problems with unions is your face.
Brilliant commentary.
You smell like crap. Here's a thought: brush your teeth.
I'm terrified.
Apparently you're not terrified of plaque, buddy boy.
Drinking again?
I wish. They won't let me drink here.
ha ahahaah ahaaha!
-
I do believe unions are necessary - we don't want to go back to the beginning of the industrial revolution where workers had no rights. In fact I'm sure if you look at some third world shit hole you can see exactly what effect not having a union has.
-
Anyone ever notice how those who support unions are also pro illegal immigration?
If the 20-30 million jobs taken from Americans were parlayed to the union and employers were forced to pay a decent wage, wouldn't this whole debate become moot?
No more bitching about jobs going overseas, the manufacturing sector gets a huge infusion of American workers, etc. etc.-->
As Cap said, most of these jobs a trained monkey could do; High paychecks for unskilled labor-- If corporations were really greedy, they would get machines to replace everyone; Next up, toll booth clerks can go too-- exact change only.
-
Anyone ever notice how those who support unions are also pro illegal immigration?
If the 20-30 million jobs taken from Americans were parlayed to the union and employers were forced to pay a decent wage, wouldn't this whole debate become moot?
No more bitching about jobs going overseas, the manufacturing sector gets a huge infusion of American workers, etc. etc.-->
As Cap said, most of these jobs a trained monkey could do; High paychecks for unskilled labor-- If corporations were really greedy, they would get machines to replace everyone; Next up, toll booth clerks can go too-- exact change only.
Ever notice how you don't wipe your ass after you take a crap? Poopstains, all the way.
-
Ouch- You hurt my feelings!
Poop stains!
I have just as intelligent a comeback- "Your Momma"
-
Ouch- You hurt my feelings!
Poop stains!
I have just as intelligent a comeback- "Your Momma"
Back off, Whorewell. Bleach or brown underwear, let's get it fixed.
-
:'(
Tell your wife to use bleach. I dont do my own laundry. Actually let me pull her out from under my desk and tell her myself.
-
LOL... I should have cleaned this thread up but it got to funny ;D