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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Straw Man on August 14, 2009, 09:22:41 AM
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#32410950
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The thought that you actually think the Democrats are intellectually honest made me laugh.
Obama will pay my mortgage.
The health care plan won't affect my coverage.
There will be no tax increases on the middle class.
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As soon as I clicked the link and saw that it was Maddow I couldnt watch.Im not into Keith Olberman in drag.Very disturbing.
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As soon as I clicked the link and saw that it was Maddow I couldnt watch.Im not into Keith Olberman in drag.Very disturbing.
I would expect nothing less
how else are you going to remain angry and stupid
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I would expect nothing less
how else are you going to remain angry and stupid
"how else are you going to remain angry and stupid"
I guess arguing with you would be a good start. ;D
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I would expect nothing less
how else are you going to remain angry and stupid
And listening to Maddow is somehow going to enlighten everyone?
Funny how you guys all post this crap from people that are either left-wing or right-wing schills, and then get upset when people don't want to play the game with this polarizing crap
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Wait theres more
" I smoked, but I didn't inhale."
"I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky."
"I never heard Rev. Wright say anything racist in 20 years."
"If you vote for me, people like Christopher Reeves will get out of their chair and walk again!"- John Edwards Circa 2007
"I was misled by the CIA"- Nancy Pelosi
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The thought that you actually think the Democrats are intellectually honest made me laugh.
Obama will pay my mortgage.
The health care plan won't affect my coverage.
There will be no tax increases on the middle class.
thanks for proving my point
when did Obama (or any Dem politician) say they would pay your mortgage or increase tax on the middle class (true Geinther and I think Summers responded to a question and said they didn't rule it out and Obama quickly corrected them the next day).
A better question would be why you think those things are true. Who got you to believe that?
Regarding health care - I think Obama got stumped on that question (I'm being honest) but I truly believe that things would only get better with more competition. Right now we have a system that is a virtual monopoly with no choice and no options for many people. I think reform should be about increasing competition, outlawing some practices (pre-existing conditions, recission, etc..) and providing a public option. Any combo of those three would go a long way to improving the health care experience for everyone (IMO)
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It seems to me that angry and stupid is liberalese for informed and factually accurate.
I guess everyone who is correct is just "angry and stupid" and "at the mercy of the corporations".
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The rightwing opposition to UHC is not valid or expressed well.
UHC is socialism! So what?
UHC has 'death panels'! No it doesn't.
UHC limits your choices and rations care! All insurance does that.
Obamacare mandates required counseling for the elderly and handicapped to tell them how to end their lives sooner! No it doesn't.
Want to discuss the merits of UHC? Sorry, we can't do that b/c the rightwing will shut down any attempt at debate by screaming wild accusations and lies.
In fact if it weren't for making shit up, the rightwing opposition would have no basis for argument.
On TV, conflict builds ratings. "Balance" often means equating reasonable views with fantastical lies. Ordinary viewers too often can't tell the difference. http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2009/08/13/lyons/index.html
I think that above statement sums up the plight fairly well. Face time for extremists at these townhall meetings validates their insane ramblings and undemocratic behavior.
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And listening to Maddow is somehow going to enlighten everyone?
Funny how you guys all post this crap from people that are either left-wing or right-wing schills, and then get upset when people don't want to play the game with this polarizing crap
Maddow (IMO) is one of the best honest new shows on the air.
You might not like her or her politcal point of view but she honest and I've noticed other shows kind of follow her lead with many stories.
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LOL
Thank you ladies and gentlemen, you've been a great audience. ::)
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It seems to me that angry and stupid is liberalese for informed and factually accurate.
I guess everyone who is correct is just "angry and stupid" and "at the mercy of the corporations".
George - dont refer to me as 333386 anymore.
I want to be known by my mob name "Don Patton"
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Maddow (IMO) is one of the best honest new shows on the air.
You might not like her or her politcal point of view but she honest and I've noticed other shows kind of follow her lead with many stories.
Oh common, she is to the left what Glen Beck is to the right, they are preaching to the choir. Same opinionated crap, and half truths. It amazes me what passes for news these days in America.
I give up, we are doomed, the republic is lost - rotten at the core :'(
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This is just a stupid post. Anyone who thinks everyone on the right or everyone on the left are stupid, should keep an open mind to evaluation of their own intelligence...or lack thereof.
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Oh common, she is to the left what Glen Beck is to the right, they are preaching to the choir. Same opinionated crap, and half truths. It amazes me what passes for news these days in America.
I give up, we are doomed, the republic is lost - rotten at the core :'(
You've either never watched her show or you're joking.
I would pay money to watch her debate Glenn Beck. She would be calm, smiling and have the facts on her side and Glenn would start screaming and wailing and probably fall on the ground in a fetal position.
The woman is smart and also entertaining. Beck is a modern day Larry "Lonesome" Rhodes (without the charm)
You should try putting your bias aside and watch her show.
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thanks for proving my point
when did Obama (or any Dem politician) say they would pay your mortgage or increase tax on the middle class (true Geinther and I think Summers responded to a question and said they didn't rule it out and Obama quickly corrected them the next day).
A better question would be why you think those things are true. Who got you to believe that?
Regarding health care - I think Obama got stumped on that question (I'm being honest) but I truly believe that things would only get better with more competition. Right now we have a system that is a virtual monopoly with no choice and no options for many people. I think reform should be about increasing competition, outlawing some practices (pre-existing conditions, recission, etc..) and providing a public option. Any combo of those three would go a long way to improving the health care experience for everyone (IMO)
You should know better.
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/261939
Obama Supporter: 'Obama Will Pay For My Gas And My Mortgage'
For Health Care
I live in Canada we have single payer coverage and you can bet health care is rationed.
We have to care supplemental insurance to cover things like ambulances rides, fibreglass casts, types of surgeries and Drugs.
That does not include the fact that things like MRI usage and CT scans are rationed.
While emergency care is great here. If you need elective surgery it can take along time.
For example hip replacements and cataracts can take up to a year and it is age dependent.
For Tax increases to the middle class.
Look no further than the Carbon Cap and Trade and the change inexise tax.
http://www.usnews.com/blogs/peter-roff/2009/06/29/obama-considers-middle-class-tax-hikes-for-healthcare-cap-and-trade.html
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You should know better.
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/261939
Obama Supporter: 'Obama Will Pay For My Gas And My Mortgage'
For Health Care
I live in Canada we have single payer coverage and you can bet health care is rationed.
We have to care supplemental insurance to cover things like ambulances rides, fibreglass casts, types of surgeries and Drugs.
That does not include the fact that things like MRI usage and CT scans are rationed.
While emergency care is great here. If you need elective surgery it can take along time.
For example hip replacements and cataracts can take up to a year and it is age dependent.
For Tax increases to the middle class.
Look no further than the Carbon Cap and Trade and the change inexise tax.
http://www.usnews.com/blogs/peter-roff/2009/06/29/obama-considers-middle-class-tax-hikes-for-healthcare-cap-and-trade.html
since when are Obama supporter and Obama the same thing.
I said Obama never said it.
There are complete morons on both sides of the aisle
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As soon as I clicked the link and saw that it was Maddow I couldnt watch.Im not into Keith Olberman in drag.Very disturbing.
Ummm,you are in the EXTREME minority thinking that fool adds anything to the country.Thats why NO ONE watches her program.Thats why a kook like Glen Beck gets 4 times her ratings and hes on at 5:00 in the afternoon.Olberman in drag is even dumber then Olberman as a man.
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You should know better.
http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/261939
Obama Supporter: 'Obama Will Pay For My Gas And My Mortgage'
For Health Care
I live in Canada we have single payer coverage and you can bet health care is rationed.
We have to care supplemental insurance to cover things like ambulances rides, fibreglass casts, types of surgeries and Drugs.
That does not include the fact that things like MRI usage and CT scans are rationed.
While emergency care is great here. If you need elective surgery it can take along time.
For example hip replacements and cataracts can take up to a year and it is age dependent.
For Tax increases to the middle class.
Look no further than the Carbon Cap and Trade and the change inexise tax.
http://www.usnews.com/blogs/peter-roff/2009/06/29/obama-considers-middle-class-tax-hikes-for-healthcare-cap-and-trade.html
it sounds like you're saying you have access to health care.
I'm sure the people in this country who don't have health care insurance would like the same access
I'm sure the people in this country who have insurance but literally can't afford to use it because the deductible is so high would like the same access you have too.
Same goes forthe people who have it and then get kicked off for bullshit reason or have it and then get legitimate medical procedures denied (this one sucks because you literally have no recourse).
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Ummm,you are in the EXTREME minority thinking that fool adds anything to the country.Thats why NO ONE watches her program.Thats why a kook like Glen Beck gets 4 times her ratings and hes on at 5:00 in the afternoon.Olberman in drag is even dumber then Olberman as a man.
now you're arguing with yourself?
that seems sane ???
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This is just a stupid post. Anyone who thinks everyone on the right or everyone on the left are stupid, should keep an open mind to evaluation of their own intelligence...or lack thereof.
Show me the statements made by pro-UHC people that are on par with the lies spread by CONGRESSMEN and MAINSTREAM PUNDITS.
What I'm getting at is that 1. UHC benefits the majority of americans. 2. UHC bites into the bottom line of elitest private insurance magnates. 3. The majority of americans must be convinced that UHC is bad for them to maintain the status quo. 4. The right uses wholesale lies and intimidation Gestapo tactics to disrupt any meaningful debate.
In other words, the left and right are not in a Manichaean struggle where loons on one side balance out the loons on the other. There is a dynamic at work where the Right, from the outset, is using deception and disruption to maintain the elitest favored status quo of our health insurance system.
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Show me the statements made by pro-UHC people that are on par with the lies spread by CONGRESSMEN and MAINSTREAM PUNDITS.
What I'm getting at is that 1. UHC benefits the majority of americans. 2. UHC bites into the bottom line of elitest private insurance magnates. 3. The majority of americans must be convinced that UHC is bad for them to maintain the status quo. 4. The right uses wholesale lies and intimidation Gestapo tactics to disrupt any meaningful debate.
In other words, the left and right are not in a Manichaean struggle where loons on one side balance out the loons on the other. There is a dynamic at work where the Right, from the outset, is using deception and disruption to maintain the elitest favored status quo of our health insurance system.
Oh yeah Decker - that phony doctor I posted about showing up at the town hall saying she was for obamacare is just the height of integrity.
And by the way Decker - what about all the greedy pig plaintiff's trial lawyers????? You never mention them do you?
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See "coverage denied" thread Decker. Good debates on healthcare there. I don't want to type things in too many threads on 1 topic. This thread should die...end of my posting here.
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See "coverage denied" thread Decker. Good debates on healthcare there. I don't want to type things in too many threads on 1 topic. This thread should die...end of my posting here.
the topic of this thread makes sense is you actually watch the video
If not, then it will just devolve into the standard issue GetBig pissing contest like so many other threads
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Oh yeah Decker - that phony doctor I posted about showing up at the town hall saying she was for obamacare is just the height of integrity.
And by the way Decker - what about all the greedy pig plaintiff's trial lawyers????? You never mention them do you?
I missed your phony doctor bit. If it's as valid as the 'union thugs' bit in St. Louis, I rest my case.
For christ's sake we have Sen. Grassley, FMR Gov. Palin, Newt Gingrich and that MN congresswoman, lying through their teeth to the American public about the nefarious murderous intentions of Obama and his health insurance plan. These aren't Limbaugh, Beck, O'reilly nuts...these are american politicians.
Then we get that Peter Schiff broken record...Gov. is the problem and the free market will save health insurance. This dude can't admit that private insurance thrives due in large part to government programs like medicare, medicaid and VA benefits. There's no profit in approving claims for really sick old people.
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See "coverage denied" thread Decker. Good debates on healthcare there. I don't want to type things in too many threads on 1 topic. This thread should die...end of my posting here.
Thanks and have a great weekend.
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I missed your phony doctor bit. If it's as valid as the 'union thugs' bit in St. Louis, I rest my case.
For christ's sake we have Sen. Grassley, FMR Gov. Palin, Newt Gingrich and that MN congresswoman, lying through their teeth to the American public about the nefarious murderous intentions of Obama and his health insurance plan. These aren't Limbaugh, Beck, O'reilly nuts...these are american politicians.
Then we get that Peter Schiff broken record...Gov. is the problem and the free market will save health insurance. This dude can't admit that private insurance thrives due in large part to government programs like medicare, medicaid and VA benefits. There's no profit in approving claims for really sick old people.
LETS DO THIS A SECOND TIME DECKER:
And by the way Decker - what about all the greedy pig plaintiff's trial lawyers?? You never mention them do you?
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Show me the statements made by pro-UHC people that are on par with the lies spread by CONGRESSMEN and MAINSTREAM PUNDITS.
What I'm getting at is that 1. UHC benefits the majority of americans. 2. UHC bites into the bottom line of elitest private insurance magnates. 3. The majority of americans must be convinced that UHC is bad for them to maintain the status quo. 4. The right uses wholesale lies and intimidation Gestapo tactics to disrupt any meaningful debate.
In other words, the left and right are not in a Manichaean struggle where loons on one side balance out the loons on the other. There is a dynamic at work where the Right, from the outset, is using deception and disruption to maintain the elitest favored status quo of our health insurance system.
Decker do you take the correct side on anything?
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You've either never watched her show or you're joking.
I would pay money to watch her debate Glenn Beck. She would be calm, smiling and have the facts on her side and Glenn would start screaming and wailing and probably fall on the ground in a fetal position.
The woman is smart and also entertaining. Beck is a modern day Larry "Lonesome" Rhodes (without the charm)
You should try putting your bias aside and watch her show.
What bias? That I want to hear the news and not someone's opinion on what is happening in the world? Sorry but if I want entertainment I'll watch a movie.
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LETS DO THIS A SECOND TIME DECKER:
And by the way Decker - what about all the greedy pig plaintiff's trial lawyers?? You never mention them do you?
Why should I?
We've covered this before. Trial lawyers and malpractice law suits are not the reason why health insurance is costly.
The Harvard researchers took a huge sample of 31,000 medical records, dating from the mid-1980s, and had them evaluated by practicing doctors and nurses, the professionals most likely to be sympathetic to the demands of the doctor's office and operating room. The records went through multiple rounds of evaluation, and a finding of negligence was made only if two doctors, working independently, separately reached that conclusion. Even with this conservative methodology, the study found that doctors were injuring one out of every 25 patients—and that only 4 percent of these injured patients sued. http://www.slate.com/id/2145400/
That doesn't seem to be a pressing problem, does it?
Frivolous lawsuits are already shitcanned by directed verdicts and sanctions.
The 'trial lawyers are the problem' tact is false.
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Decker do you take the correct side on anything?
I think Gilbert Gottfried is hilarious.
That and I don't fall for propaganda that accomodates some mental case libertarian utopian world view.
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Decker - John Edwards took out hundreds of millions from the health system on dubious claims and you are silent.
Check this video out from the Huffington Post about the deal Obama made with Big Pharma. I'm sure you will be proud of your hero.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/14/ryan-grim-on-the-white-ho_n_259623.html
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Decker - John Edwards took out hundreds of millions from the health system on dubious claims and you are silent.
Of course.
He is a liberal democrat. Everything he does is great.... ::)
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it sounds like you're saying you have access to health care.
I'm sure the people in this country who don't have health care insurance would like the same access
I'm sure the people in this country who have insurance but literally can't afford to use it because the deductible is so high would like the same access you have too.
Same goes forthe people who have it and then get kicked off for bullshit reason or have it and then get legitimate medical procedures denied (this one sucks because you literally have no recourse).
There are many things that the US could do that would fix the health care problems faster than this bill
I have many in the past.
But the first dew things would be to limit drug costs by revising the copyright laws and to reduce the length of copyright for any drug sponsored by the government or from publiclly funded donations.
Legislate that everyone have private insurance.
Set a base level of insurance that needs to be provided and provide tax incentives for people to obtain coverage.
Deal with illegals.
Things like Medicaid and Medicare cover the majority of the poor.
Its the working poor that need the most help.
http://www.kff.org/insurance/upload/7670_02.pdf
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There are many things that the US could do that would fix the health care problems faster than this bill
I have many in the past.
But the first dew things would be to limit drug costs by revising the copyright laws and to reduce the length of copyright for any drug sponsored by the government or from publiclly funded donations.
Legislate that everyone have private insurance.
Set a base level of insurance that needs to be provided and provide tax incentives for people to obtain coverage.
Deal with illegals.
Things like Medicaid and Medicare cover the majority of the poor.
Its the working poor that need the most help.
http://www.kff.org/insurance/upload/7670_02.pdf
That right there will help a lot with any social handout program.
You wouldn't believe how much $$$ meant for the poor gets wasted on illegals.
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it sounds like you're saying you have access to health care.
I'm sure the people in this country who don't have health care insurance would like the same access
I'm sure the people in this country who have insurance but literally can't afford to use it because the deductible is so high would like the same access you have too.
Same goes forthe people who have it and then get kicked off for bullshit reason or have it and then get legitimate medical procedures denied (this one sucks because you literally have no recourse).
It will be MUCH better if the government runs it.They do everything so well.Lets see,45 minutes to buy a stamp,4 hours to register your car,weeks to get your tax refund back.Imagine getting in line waiting for an operation?You will be dead LOOONG before you get it.
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You always are hearing stories about people waiting like 6 weeks in Canada to get a broken leg set.
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Damnit, you pulled me back in!! hahaha.
The cost of defensive medical practice + medical insurance rates + large damage payouts to patients and lawyers by case or settlements add up to a very large amount of money. Frivelous lawsuits are not balanced by sanctions and verdicts. Most of these are settlements and are on the doctor's record permanently! Any case brought against doctors, win or loose, increases malpractice rates. Defend that, sir!
I was listening to an expert on a left leaning radio show earlier this week (in another post). He said pure tort reform is not effective and would not decrease the cost of medicine much alone. He quoted defensive medical practice costs to be at least 100 billion dollars/year. Studies have estimated this cost up to 200 billion but he used a conservative estimate. So, adding the above to defensive medicine costs would be even more...thats significant.
Addressing the whole malpractice situation (a multi-facited issue, not just tort reform) would save money and is necessary...but will not fix our healthcare crisis. Its one of many things that need to be addressed. If anyone tells you tort reform alone will fix the problem, they are wrong.
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A professional Canadian athlete had to wait 6 months to get his ACL fixed. I spoke to him personally on another board. I think wait times for non emergent situations will be an issue.
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Do any Americans on this board think it would be ok to wait 6 months to get your knee fixed in a public health-style hospital because 300 mexicans need their sniffles taken care of first?
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Do any Americans on this board think it would be ok to wait 6 months to get your knee fixed in a public health-style hospital because 300 mexicans need their sniffles taken care of first?
Actually, yes there are a few on here.
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Stupid title for a thread!
Are all Democrats intellectually honest? No.
Are all Republicans intellectually dishonest? No. Take Ron Paul for example.
Is Straw Man's title for this thread intellectually honest? NO
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This is actually turning into a good thread but the title is stupid.
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You always are hearing stories about people waiting like 6 weeks in Canada to get a broken leg set.
I have never heard of this.
Emergency surgery is quick here.
However doctors do miss things.
Just like in the US. So that sometimes explains the long wait for broken bones. Plus we only do X-rays for emergency except for head trauma,
So things can be missed.
Elective surgeries like Shootfighter says take a long time. I spent a year and half waiting for a cornea transplant.
The 6 month wait for knee surgery doesn't include the 6 month wait for an MRI for the Knee.
There is a tendency to say if you do it to yourself you should wait.
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Decker - John Edwards took out hundreds of millions from the health system on dubious claims and you are silent.
Bullshit. He'd have been disbarred for gaming the system.
Why don't you post some facts first before I waste my time objecting? You post a lot of things that you just make up b/c it fits your prejudice.
Check this video out from the Huffington Post about the deal Obama made with Big Pharma. I'm sure you will be proud of your hero.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/14/ryan-grim-on-the-white-ho_n_259623.html
What deal? There's a report that the WH may have made a concession to Big Pharmaceuticals to get the healthcare passed.
Who gives a shit?
Politics is ugly....negotiation is part of the deal.
Only you libertarian utopians think you can get everything you want the way you want it and right now.
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Only you libertarian utopians think you can get everything you want the way you want it and right now.
I have never ever heard of libertarian offering Utopia to anyone, now socialist and Communist yes.
All libertarians want is the Federal Government to abide by the constitution and not over steps the bounds set in the constitution. I hate to break it to you, but you are not intitled to anything simply for being born in America except for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
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I have never ever heard of libertarian offering Utopia to anyone, now socialist and Communist yes.
All libertarians want is the Federal Government to abide by the constitution and not over steps the bounds set in the constitution. I hate to break it to you, but you are not intitled to anything simply for being born in America except for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
The way I hear it, esp. from guys like Schiff, is that:
*If the fed. gov. intrudes into the free market, the result is disaster.
The corollaries to the idea that gov. can do nothing but harm are:
*Taxation is theft
*Gov. regulation is burdensome and not necessary
The Utopian measure is that government has no role in the market or no obligation to meet societal needs.
And if each person were left alone to his own designs acting in his own interest, things would operate just fine.
You mention 'entitlement'. If you think society has no demands or expectations of you, then you are free to pursue a hermit's life somewhere else. In this country, the gov. gives you an education and expects some productive return on that.
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Damnit, you pulled me back in!! hahaha.
The cost of defensive medical practice + medical insurance rates + large damage payouts to patients and lawyers by case or settlements add up to a very large amount of money. Frivelous lawsuits are not balanced by sanctions and verdicts. Most of these are settlements and are on the doctor's record permanently! Any case brought against doctors, win or loose, increases malpractice rates. Defend that, sir!
I was listening to an expert on a left leaning radio show earlier this week (in another post). He said pure tort reform is not effective and would not decrease the cost of medicine much alone. He quoted defensive medical practice costs to be at least 100 billion dollars/year. Studies have estimated this cost up to 200 billion but he used a conservative estimate. So, adding the above to defensive medicine costs would be even more...thats significant.
Addressing the whole malpractice situation (a multi-facited issue, not just tort reform) would save money and is necessary...but will not fix our healthcare crisis. Its one of many things that need to be addressed. If anyone tells you tort reform alone will fix the problem, they are wrong.
I already wished you a good day sir!
The Harvard researchers took a huge sample of 31,000 medical records, dating from the mid-1980s, and had them evaluated by practicing doctors and nurses, the professionals most likely to be sympathetic to the demands of the doctor's office and operating room. The records went through multiple rounds of evaluation, and a finding of negligence was made only if two doctors, working independently, separately reached that conclusion. Even with this conservative methodology, the study found that doctors were injuring one out of every 25 patients—and that only 4 percent of these injured patients sued. http://www.slate.com/id/2145400/
How many of those malpractice cases that were settled were b/c some drunk or high doctor killed his patient? I think the study does address the settlement number.
The median cost of medical malpractice cases is $139,000. The number of million dollar awards is less than one half of one percent of all annual awards.
44,000 to 98,000 people die from medical malpractice each year. I think we need a system to address that. We do-malpractice suits in a court of law.
Here's a pretty good compendium on the issue of medical malpractice.
http://www.citizen.org/documents/NPDB%20Report_Final.pdf
Defensive medicine? You speak as if towing the line of competency is something bad. What do you mean?
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This is actually turning into a good thread but the title is stupid.
I started this thread with a title and a link.
that's it.
If you didn't watch the video link then you wouldn't understand the context of the title
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This is just a stupid post. Anyone who thinks everyone on the right or everyone on the left are stupid, should keep an open mind to evaluation of their own intelligence...or lack thereof.
Yep. Truth.
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The way I hear it, esp. from guys like Schiff, is that:
*If the fed. gov. intrudes into the free market, the result is disaster.
The corollaries to the idea that gov. can do nothing but harm are:
*Taxation is theft
*Gov. regulation is burdensome and not necessary
The Utopian measure is that government has no role in the market or no obligation to meet societal needs.
And if each person were left alone to his own designs acting in his own interest, things would operate just fine.
You mention 'entitlement'. If you think society has no demands or expectations of you, then you are free to pursue a hermit's life somewhere else. In this country, the gov. gives you an education and expects some productive return on that.
1) Some regulation is needed, some don't care who the hurt or what they damage to meet their ends.
2)Some taxation is needed to keep services running, roads in good shape, police, fireman etc.
3)Really the government provided me with an education? Maybe I went to private school.
The only demand society has the right to make on me is to abide by the laws of said society. The government expects a producive return? What a bunch of bullshit, guess thats we have well fare and all these other social programs for all these people that were provided with an education and are being productive in return. Why don't pack your shit and go live in one of your fucking socialst heavens.
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1) Some regulation is needed, some don't care who the hurt or what they damage to meet their ends.
2)Some taxation is needed to keep services running, roads in good shape, police, fireman etc.
3)Really the government provided me with an education? Maybe I went to private school.
The only demand society has the right to make on me is to abide by the laws of said society. The government expects a producive return? What a bunch of bullshit, guess thats we have well fare and all these other social programs for all these people that were provided with an education and are being productive in return. Why don't pack your shit and go live in one of your fucking socialst heavens.
We the People, Society, can make any legal demand of you it pleases. That includes making you give your life for defending the country.
You aren't an island even though you pretend to be one. You couldn't live that rugged life if you tried. The government/People wouldn't let you.