Author Topic: Intellectual Dishonesty - You can't be a Republican without it  (Read 2957 times)

Decker

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Re: Intellectual Dishonesty - You can't be a Republican without it
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2009, 10:26:27 AM »
Oh yeah Decker - that phony doctor I posted about showing up at the town hall saying she was for obamacare is just the height of integrity. 

And by the way Decker - what about all the greedy pig plaintiff's trial lawyers?????  You never mention them do you?
I missed your phony doctor bit.  If it's as valid as the 'union thugs' bit in St. Louis, I rest my case.

For christ's sake we have Sen. Grassley, FMR Gov. Palin, Newt Gingrich and that MN congresswoman, lying through their teeth to the American public about the nefarious murderous intentions of Obama and his health insurance plan.  These aren't Limbaugh, Beck, O'reilly nuts...these are american politicians.

Then we get that Peter Schiff broken record...Gov. is the problem and the free market will save health insurance.  This dude can't admit that private insurance thrives due in large part to government programs like medicare, medicaid and VA benefits.  There's no profit in approving claims for really sick old people.


Decker

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Re: Intellectual Dishonesty - You can't be a Republican without it
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2009, 10:27:04 AM »
See "coverage denied" thread Decker.  Good debates on healthcare there.  I don't want to type things in too many threads on 1 topic.  This thread should die...end of my posting here.
Thanks and have a great weekend.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Intellectual Dishonesty - You can't be a Republican without it
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2009, 10:27:55 AM »
I missed your phony doctor bit.  If it's as valid as the 'union thugs' bit in St. Louis, I rest my case.

For christ's sake we have Sen. Grassley, FMR Gov. Palin, Newt Gingrich and that MN congresswoman, lying through their teeth to the American public about the nefarious murderous intentions of Obama and his health insurance plan.  These aren't Limbaugh, Beck, O'reilly nuts...these are american politicians.

Then we get that Peter Schiff broken record...Gov. is the problem and the free market will save health insurance.  This dude can't admit that private insurance thrives due in large part to government programs like medicare, medicaid and VA benefits.  There's no profit in approving claims for really sick old people.



LETS DO THIS A SECOND TIME DECKER:

And by the way Decker - what about all the greedy pig plaintiff's trial lawyers??  You never mention them do you?

Hereford

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Re: Intellectual Dishonesty - You can't be a Republican without it
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2009, 10:30:02 AM »
Show me the statements made by pro-UHC people that are on par with the lies spread by CONGRESSMEN and MAINSTREAM PUNDITS.

What I'm getting at is that 1. UHC benefits the majority of americans.  2. UHC bites into the bottom line of elitest private insurance magnates.  3.  The majority of americans must be convinced that UHC is bad for them to maintain the status quo.  4.  The right uses wholesale lies and intimidation Gestapo tactics to disrupt any meaningful debate.

In other words, the left and right are not in a Manichaean struggle where loons on one side balance out the loons on the other.  There is a dynamic at work where the Right, from the outset, is using deception and disruption to maintain the elitest favored status quo of our health insurance system.

Decker do you take the correct side on anything?

Kazan

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Re: Intellectual Dishonesty - You can't be a Republican without it
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2009, 10:33:24 AM »
You've either never watched her show or you're joking.

I would pay money to watch her debate Glenn Beck.  She would be calm, smiling and have the facts on her side and Glenn would start screaming and wailing and probably fall on the ground in a fetal position.

The woman is smart and also entertaining.   Beck is a modern day Larry "Lonesome" Rhodes (without the charm)

You should try putting your bias aside and watch her show.

What bias? That I want to hear the news and not someone's opinion on what is happening in the world? Sorry but if I want entertainment I'll watch a movie.
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Decker

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Re: Intellectual Dishonesty - You can't be a Republican without it
« Reply #30 on: August 14, 2009, 10:45:02 AM »
LETS DO THIS A SECOND TIME DECKER:

And by the way Decker - what about all the greedy pig plaintiff's trial lawyers??  You never mention them do you?
Why should I? 

We've covered this before.  Trial lawyers and malpractice law suits are not the reason why health insurance is costly.

The Harvard researchers took a huge sample of 31,000 medical records, dating from the mid-1980s, and had them evaluated by practicing doctors and nurses, the professionals most likely to be sympathetic to the demands of the doctor's office and operating room. The records went through multiple rounds of evaluation, and a finding of negligence was made only if two doctors, working independently, separately reached that conclusion. Even with this conservative methodology, the study found that doctors were injuring one out of every 25 patients—and that only 4 percent of these injured patients sued.  http://www.slate.com/id/2145400/

That doesn't seem to be a pressing problem, does it?

Frivolous lawsuits are already shitcanned by directed verdicts and sanctions.

The 'trial lawyers are the problem' tact is false.

Decker

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Re: Intellectual Dishonesty - You can't be a Republican without it
« Reply #31 on: August 14, 2009, 10:46:16 AM »
Decker do you take the correct side on anything?
I think Gilbert Gottfried is hilarious.


That and I don't fall for propaganda that accomodates some mental case libertarian utopian world view.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Intellectual Dishonesty - You can't be a Republican without it
« Reply #32 on: August 14, 2009, 10:48:13 AM »
Decker - John Edwards took out hundreds of millions from the health system on dubious claims and you are silent. 

Check this video out from the Huffington Post about the deal Obama made with Big Pharma.  I'm sure you will be proud of your hero.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/14/ryan-grim-on-the-white-ho_n_259623.html


Hereford

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Re: Intellectual Dishonesty - You can't be a Republican without it
« Reply #33 on: August 14, 2009, 10:49:50 AM »
Decker - John Edwards took out hundreds of millions from the health system on dubious claims and you are silent. 


Of course.

He is a liberal democrat. Everything he does is great....  ::)

a_joker10

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Re: Intellectual Dishonesty - You can't be a Republican without it
« Reply #34 on: August 14, 2009, 10:53:53 AM »
it sounds like you're saying you have access to health care.

I'm sure the people in this country who don't have health care insurance would like the same access

I'm sure the people in this country who have insurance but literally can't afford to use it because the deductible is so high would like the same access you have too.

Same goes forthe people who have it and then get kicked off for bullshit reason or have it and then get legitimate medical procedures denied (this one sucks because you literally have no recourse).



There are many things that the US could do that would fix the health care problems faster than this bill

I have many in the past.
But the first dew things would be to limit drug costs by revising the copyright laws and to reduce the length of copyright for any drug sponsored by the government or from publiclly funded donations.
Legislate that everyone have private insurance.
Set a base level of insurance that needs to be provided and provide tax incentives for people to obtain coverage.
Deal with illegals.
Things like Medicaid and Medicare cover the majority of the poor.

Its the working poor that need the most help.


http://www.kff.org/insurance/upload/7670_02.pdf
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Hereford

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Re: Intellectual Dishonesty - You can't be a Republican without it
« Reply #35 on: August 14, 2009, 11:08:39 AM »
There are many things that the US could do that would fix the health care problems faster than this bill

I have many in the past.
But the first dew things would be to limit drug costs by revising the copyright laws and to reduce the length of copyright for any drug sponsored by the government or from publiclly funded donations.
Legislate that everyone have private insurance.
Set a base level of insurance that needs to be provided and provide tax incentives for people to obtain coverage.
Deal with illegals.
Things like Medicaid and Medicare cover the majority of the poor.

Its the working poor that need the most help.


http://www.kff.org/insurance/upload/7670_02.pdf

That right there will help a lot with any social handout program.

You wouldn't believe how much $$$ meant for the poor gets wasted on illegals.

BM OUT

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Re: Intellectual Dishonesty - You can't be a Republican without it
« Reply #36 on: August 14, 2009, 11:18:32 AM »
it sounds like you're saying you have access to health care.

I'm sure the people in this country who don't have health care insurance would like the same access

I'm sure the people in this country who have insurance but literally can't afford to use it because the deductible is so high would like the same access you have too.

Same goes forthe people who have it and then get kicked off for bullshit reason or have it and then get legitimate medical procedures denied (this one sucks because you literally have no recourse).



It will be MUCH better if the government runs it.They do everything so well.Lets see,45 minutes to buy a stamp,4 hours to register your car,weeks to get your tax refund back.Imagine getting in line waiting for an operation?You will be dead LOOONG before you get it.

Hereford

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Re: Intellectual Dishonesty - You can't be a Republican without it
« Reply #37 on: August 14, 2009, 11:28:33 AM »
You always are hearing stories about people waiting like 6 weeks in Canada to get a broken leg set.

shootfighter1

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Re: Intellectual Dishonesty - You can't be a Republican without it
« Reply #38 on: August 14, 2009, 11:31:01 AM »
Damnit, you pulled me back in!!  hahaha.

The cost of defensive medical practice + medical insurance rates + large damage payouts to patients and lawyers by case or settlements add up to a very large amount of money.  Frivelous lawsuits are not balanced by sanctions and verdicts.  Most of these are settlements and are on the doctor's record permanently!  Any case brought against doctors, win or loose, increases malpractice rates.  Defend that, sir!

I was listening to an expert on a left leaning radio show earlier this week (in another post).  He said pure tort reform is not effective and would not decrease the cost of medicine much alone.  He quoted defensive medical practice costs to be at least 100 billion dollars/year.  Studies have estimated this cost up to 200 billion but he used a conservative estimate.  So, adding the above to defensive medicine costs would be even more...thats significant.

Addressing the whole malpractice situation (a multi-facited issue, not just tort reform) would save money and is necessary...but will not fix our healthcare crisis.  Its one of many things that need to be addressed.  If anyone tells you tort reform alone will fix the problem, they are wrong.

shootfighter1

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Re: Intellectual Dishonesty - You can't be a Republican without it
« Reply #39 on: August 14, 2009, 11:37:34 AM »
A professional Canadian athlete had to wait 6 months to get his ACL fixed.  I spoke to him personally on another board.  I think wait times for non emergent situations will be an issue.

Hereford

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Re: Intellectual Dishonesty - You can't be a Republican without it
« Reply #40 on: August 14, 2009, 11:45:46 AM »
Do any Americans on this board think it would be ok to wait 6 months to get your knee fixed in a public health-style hospital because 300 mexicans need their sniffles taken care of first?

Soul Crusher

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Re: Intellectual Dishonesty - You can't be a Republican without it
« Reply #41 on: August 14, 2009, 11:50:14 AM »
Do any Americans on this board think it would be ok to wait 6 months to get your knee fixed in a public health-style hospital because 300 mexicans need their sniffles taken care of first?

Actually, yes there are a few on here. 

loco

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Re: Intellectual Dishonesty - You can't be a Republican without it
« Reply #42 on: August 14, 2009, 12:47:57 PM »
Stupid title for a thread!

Are all Democrats intellectually honest?  No.

Are all Republicans intellectually dishonest? No.  Take Ron Paul for example.

Is Straw Man's title for this thread intellectually honest?  NO

shootfighter1

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Re: Intellectual Dishonesty - You can't be a Republican without it
« Reply #43 on: August 14, 2009, 01:29:08 PM »
This is actually turning into a good thread but the title is stupid.

a_joker10

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Re: Intellectual Dishonesty - You can't be a Republican without it
« Reply #44 on: August 14, 2009, 01:52:12 PM »
You always are hearing stories about people waiting like 6 weeks in Canada to get a broken leg set.
I have never heard of this.
Emergency surgery is quick here.

However doctors do miss things.
Just like in the US. So that sometimes explains the long wait for broken bones. Plus we only do X-rays for emergency except for head trauma,
 So things can be missed.
Elective surgeries like Shootfighter says take a long time. I spent a year and half waiting for a cornea transplant.

The 6 month wait for knee surgery doesn't include the 6 month wait for an MRI for the Knee.
There is a tendency to say if you do it to yourself you should wait.
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Decker

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Re: Intellectual Dishonesty - You can't be a Republican without it
« Reply #45 on: August 14, 2009, 04:39:37 PM »
Decker - John Edwards took out hundreds of millions from the health system on dubious claims and you are silent. 
Bullshit.  He'd have been disbarred for gaming the system.

Why don't you post some facts first before I waste my time objecting?  You post a lot of things that you just make up b/c it fits your prejudice.

Quote
Check this video out from the Huffington Post about the deal Obama made with Big Pharma.  I'm sure you will be proud of your hero.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/14/ryan-grim-on-the-white-ho_n_259623.html
What deal?  There's a report that the WH may have made a concession to Big Pharmaceuticals to get the healthcare passed.

Who gives a shit?

Politics is ugly....negotiation is part of the deal.

Only you libertarian utopians think you can get everything you want the way you want it and right now.



Kazan

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Re: Intellectual Dishonesty - You can't be a Republican without it
« Reply #46 on: August 14, 2009, 05:08:48 PM »
Only you libertarian utopians think you can get everything you want the way you want it and right now.

I have never ever heard of libertarian offering Utopia to anyone, now socialist and Communist yes.
All libertarians want is the Federal Government to abide by the constitution and not over steps the bounds set in the constitution. I hate to break it to you, but you are not intitled to anything simply for being born in America except for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
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Decker

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Re: Intellectual Dishonesty - You can't be a Republican without it
« Reply #47 on: August 14, 2009, 05:50:07 PM »
I have never ever heard of libertarian offering Utopia to anyone, now socialist and Communist yes.
All libertarians want is the Federal Government to abide by the constitution and not over steps the bounds set in the constitution. I hate to break it to you, but you are not intitled to anything simply for being born in America except for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
The way I hear it, esp. from guys like Schiff, is that:

*If the fed. gov. intrudes into the free market, the result is disaster.

The corollaries to the idea that gov. can do nothing but harm are:

*Taxation is theft

*Gov. regulation is burdensome and not necessary

The Utopian measure is that government has no role in the market or no obligation to meet societal needs.

And if each person were left alone to his own designs acting in his own interest, things would operate just fine.

You mention 'entitlement'.  If you think society has no demands or expectations of you, then you are free to pursue a hermit's life somewhere else.  In this country, the gov. gives you an education and expects some productive return on that.

Decker

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Re: Intellectual Dishonesty - You can't be a Republican without it
« Reply #48 on: August 14, 2009, 06:21:42 PM »
Damnit, you pulled me back in!!  hahaha.

The cost of defensive medical practice + medical insurance rates + large damage payouts to patients and lawyers by case or settlements add up to a very large amount of money.  Frivelous lawsuits are not balanced by sanctions and verdicts.  Most of these are settlements and are on the doctor's record permanently!  Any case brought against doctors, win or loose, increases malpractice rates.  Defend that, sir!

I was listening to an expert on a left leaning radio show earlier this week (in another post).  He said pure tort reform is not effective and would not decrease the cost of medicine much alone.  He quoted defensive medical practice costs to be at least 100 billion dollars/year.  Studies have estimated this cost up to 200 billion but he used a conservative estimate.  So, adding the above to defensive medicine costs would be even more...thats significant.

Addressing the whole malpractice situation (a multi-facited issue, not just tort reform) would save money and is necessary...but will not fix our healthcare crisis.  Its one of many things that need to be addressed.  If anyone tells you tort reform alone will fix the problem, they are wrong.
I already wished you a good day sir!

The Harvard researchers took a huge sample of 31,000 medical records, dating from the mid-1980s, and had them evaluated by practicing doctors and nurses, the professionals most likely to be sympathetic to the demands of the doctor's office and operating room. The records went through multiple rounds of evaluation, and a finding of negligence was made only if two doctors, working independently, separately reached that conclusion. Even with this conservative methodology, the study found that doctors were injuring one out of every 25 patients—and that only 4 percent of these injured patients sued.  http://www.slate.com/id/2145400/


How many of those malpractice cases that were settled were b/c some drunk or high doctor killed his patient?  I think the study does address the settlement number.

The median cost of medical malpractice cases is $139,000. The number of million dollar awards is less than one half of one percent of all annual awards.

44,000 to 98,000 people die from medical malpractice each year.  I think we need a system to address that.  We do-malpractice suits in a court of law.

Here's a pretty good compendium on the issue of medical malpractice.
http://www.citizen.org/documents/NPDB%20Report_Final.pdf

Defensive medicine?  You speak as if towing the line of competency is something bad.  What do you mean? 

Straw Man

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Re: Intellectual Dishonesty - You can't be a Republican without it
« Reply #49 on: August 14, 2009, 10:06:48 PM »
This is actually turning into a good thread but the title is stupid.

I started this thread with a title and a link.

that's it.

If you didn't watch the video link then you wouldn't understand the context of the title