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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Hugo Chavez on August 17, 2009, 11:03:38 PM
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I think that truly sucks!!! This is just like when they catered to the Repubs before when they didn't need to.
I think they should ram the public option through. If he doesn't, ...he's gonna lose alot of Democrat support.
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I think they should ram the public option through. If he doesn't, ...he's gonna lose alot of Democrat support.
Are those voters gonna turn Republican? ::)
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Are those voters gonna turn Republican? ::)
I doubt it. They just might do what alot of Republicans did last November, ...and just stay home next election.
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Are those voters gonna turn Republican? ::)
nope, but they will vote third party or just not vote. Check out my thread on Obama's poll numbers... If only 5 to 10 percent of the base bail, Obama is in real trouble. Actually some of them might go republican. The dems spent the last decade and a half talking up what fiscal conservatives they'd become. Well they've managed in less than a year to destroy that image so they're sure to lose some of those voters too.
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I think that truly sucks!!! This is just like when they catered to the Repubs before when they didn't need to.
I think they should ram the public option through. If he doesn't, ...he's gonna lose alot of Democrat support.
You guys must be livid over this.
60 votes in the Senate, the house, the presidency - and this nonsense is going on????
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You guys must be livid over this.
60 votes in the Senate, the house, the presidency - and this nonsense is going on????
Nothing to be livid about since the current plans offered are useless anyway.
If one is livid about anything, its the fact that Single Payer was never on the table from the start. The current plans are nothing but Pure Capitalism that should appeal to all Republicans, yet they are fighting it.
Its quite amusing.
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Nothing to be livid about since the current plans offered are useless anyway.
If one is livid about anything, its the fact that Single Payer was never on the table from the start. The current plans are nothing but Pure Capitalism that should appeal to all Republicans, yet they are fighting it.
Its quite amusing.
Its not pure capitilism TA. Its crony capitilism and proce fixing. Its antitrust violations and mafia like tactics.
Go listen to the Celente interview I posted. you may be surprised how much you agree with in there.
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Its not pure capitilism TA. Its crony capitilism and proce fixing. Its antitrust violations and mafia like tactics.
Go listen to the Celente interview I posted. you may be surprised how much you agree with in there.
Its nothing different at all than what you have. The only difference is the elimination of Pre-existing conditions.
Stop your conspiracy theories and support the plans. Its amazing that you are fighting against what you support. I cannot for the life of me grasp the mind of your ilk.
I cannot support them whatsoever as there is ZERO change in effect.
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336, the problem is that many Democrats are just as owned by the health insurance industry as the Republicans are.
They will do anything to secure funds for their campaigns.
Even shoot down a decent health care initiative.
Because god forbid if there is universal health care that would cut off the feeding pipe for the insurance biz. ::) >:(
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Nothing to be livid about since the current plans offered are useless anyway.
If one is livid about anything, its the fact that Single Payer was never on the table from the start. The current plans are nothing but Pure Capitalism that should appeal to all Republicans, yet they are fighting it.
Its quite amusing.
it's true, they did chop it to a fraction of what was most needed, but this was it. If they do this, they neutered the very last thing that might have cost them (healthcare industy) a single dime. absolutely no point in passing it now. It'll just go on to be a bill purely for the benefit of the insurance companies and by default, everyone else involved business wise.
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336, the problem is that many Democrats are just as owned by the health insurance industry as the Republicans are.
They will do anything to secure funds for their campaigns.
Even shoot down a decent health care initiative.
Because god forbid if there is universal health care that would cut off the feeding pipe for the insurance biz. ::) >:(
Its also a bit deeper than that. The public is uneducated, raucous and ill-informed and some members may choose political expediency over doing what is truly the right thing. May as well kick the can down the road because the public is so ill-informed and immune to facts is the thought of more than a few in congress. Its horrible in all aspects.
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336, the problem is that many Democrats are just as owned by the health insurance industry as the Republicans are.
They will do anything to secure funds for their campaigns.
Even shoot down a decent health care initiative.
Because god forbid if there is universal health care that would cut off the feeding pipe for the insurance biz. ::) >:(
that's not true. They've owed as much dems as they felt they needed to. The party that's owned by them is the republican party by a much larger degree, they've paid them way more.
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336, the problem is that many Democrats are just as owned by the health insurance industry as the Republicans are.
Very true. In fact, I believe Olbermann said in one of his recent "Special Comments" that Obama himself got a very generous "donation" from some of those health-care vampires.
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The problem is that the Healthcare Industry is the result of Pure Capitalism. It now has gotten "too big to fail".
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It's time to end our "risky experiment" of "For-profit health insurance". It's a proven failure.
HR676 (http://hr676.org) Single Payer system that is proven, pro-business and pro-people:
* Slashes at least 30% of costs off the top by removing private insurance overhead.
* Companies take health care expenses off their books. Stock value increases. Better able to compete internationally.
* Small companies could have access to higher skilled workers because previously they couldn't compete in the labor market by offering similar benefits.
* More entrepreneurial ventures will launch since they have more money and less unrelated risk.
* Dramatic drop in bankruptcies.
* Dramatic drop in lawsuits. Most of these lawsuits are simply to obtain money to cover health care if something interrupts their coverage.
* Reduced system complexity. Greater efficiency due to fewer regulations.
* Savings from employees not having to fight with their insurers during work hours.
* HSA and MSA dollars redirected back into the economy for goods and services.
* Additional money to spend from not having to carry "uninsured motorist coverage" on your auto policy.
* Contract employment is more viable for workers since they are guaranteed access to health care.
* People are covered when unemployed. No chance of being wiped out financially if you lose your job.
* Health care providers (doctors, hospitals, therapists...) see increase in business with much less administrative expense.
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The problem is that the Healthcare Industry is the result of Pure Capitalism. It now has gotten "too big to fail".
TA - you are going to believe what you want and that is fine.
But tell me - serious - why is is that computers, cell phones, electronics, etc have all come down massively in price while the quality has gone up all while health insurance and medical costs have increased beyond the rate of inflation?
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Very true. In fact, I believe Olbermann said in one of his recent "Special Comments" that Obama himself got a very generous "donation" from some of those health-care vampires.
we actually don't know all the details for sure, but he obviously cut some deal with them. Some of the details have been posted here. But, it's not true, I think more more money has gone to republicans.
This decade: to dems: $118,712,108 to republicans: $199,939,750
Note, the very first time the insurance companies decided to bring up their contributions for dems to meet what is given to republicans was in 08 and they've for the first time committed more contributions to dems than republicans for 2010.. They're paying off a handful of dems bigtime, it's all they need to fuck it all up. I have no idea why they've paid so much to republicans. Wasted money, they would have gotten adequate help from them anyway.
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TA - you are going to believe what you want and that is fine.
But tell me - serious - why is is that computers, cell phones, electronics, etc have all come down massively in price while the quality has gone up all while health insurance and medical costs have increased beyond the rate of inflation?
you're not serious? That's a retarted comparison.
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we actually don't know all the details for sure, but he obviously cut some deal with them. Some of the details have been posted here. But, it's not true, I think more more money has gone to republicans.
This decade: to dems: $118,712,108 to republicans: $199,939,750
Note, the very first time the insurance companies decided to bring up their contributions for dems to meet what is given to republicans was in 08 and they've for the first time committed more contributions to dems than republicans for 2010.. They're paying off a handful of dems bigtime, it's all they need to fuck it all up. I have no idea why they've paid so much to republicans. Wasted money, they would have gotten adequate help from them anyway.
Instead of blaming evil corporations, you guys also need to look at the fact at how employer based health insurance came into effect in the first place. It was to depress wages during WW2 and offer workers benes instead of wages. The employer got to write it off the taxes, so it essentially is a tax issue.
If you take away the third party payer component and allow for the patient to be responsible somewhat for cost controls, you will see alot more downward pressure on costs. The third party payer system does not work, I agree with that.
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Only 41 to 43 dems are going to back it in its current form. Obama knows it.
Lose the public option, and he still gets clauses he wants, takes away the right to deny and some other things. It's an improvement of 70%. not 100%, but still 70%. Better than nothing, which is what the last 5 or 6 presidents have managed to achieve on healthcare.
He's actually taking repub input now - pissing off both sides. And Rs are sitll hating on him for it.
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TA - you are going to believe what you want and that is fine.
But tell me - serious - why is is that computers, cell phones, electronics, etc have all come down massively in price while the quality has gone up all while health insurance and medical costs have increased beyond the rate of inflation?
Those are all tangible products using different technology and production methods. Insurance cannot be compared at all with these products. Insurance is not even a tangible good nor does it take any innovation or technology to produce. I really hope you are not this juvenile when you discuss this concept.
Furthermore your argument is purely ignorant since there are WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY more Insurance companies offering a product, around 1200 companies with a around 4-5 GIANT Insurance Companies (yet costs are still extremely high) than there are Electronics manufactures, or cell phone brands or computer brands.
Your comparison makes zero sense and I hope you realize this.
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Its not pure capitilism TA. Its crony capitilism and proce fixing. Its antitrust violations and mafia like tactics.
Go listen to the Celente interview I posted. you may be surprised how much you agree with in there.
I know I was, especially in light of the house majority... unless he's going through the motions of bipartisanship
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Only 41 to 43 dems are going to back it in its current form. Obama knows it.
Lose the public option, and he still gets clauses he wants, takes away the right to deny and some other things. It's an improvement of 70%. not 100%, but still 70%. Better than nothing, which is what the last 5 or 6 presidents have managed to achieve on healthcare.
He's actually taking repub input now - pissing off both sides. And Rs are sitll hating on him for it.
perhaps you missed the much larger amound of dems (100 house) who said that they would NOT support it without the public option. Now what?
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you're not serious? That's a retarted comparison.
Why is it retarted?
When there is true competition prices come down, period.
What we have now is not capatilism and you libs want to claim it is. Its the farthest thing from that since the actual user of the product, the patient, has no incentive to comparison shop, etc. Additionally, the doctors act on a fee schedule, not what the patient can pay. The perfect example of this is durable medical supplies. The suppliers are allowed to charge $90 for ta $10 neck brace because its on the fee schedule. That is not capitilism, sorry. Everyone gets screwed in that situation.
I have one client, a chiropractor, who refuses to take insurance, medicare, or medicaide or any govt insurance. Cash only. He is doing great and there is no paperwork, no nonsense, and no waiting for his money. The patients pay for what they use and he offers all sorts of deal to them based on volume discounts, etc. Everyone likes it.
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Why is it retarted?
When there is true competition prices come down, period.
What we have now is not capatilism and you libs want to claim it is. Its the farthest thing from that since the actual user of the product, the patient, has no incentive to comparison shop, etc. Additionally, the doctors act on a fee schedule, not what the patient can pay. The perfect example of this is durable medical supplies. The suppliers are allowed to charge $90 for ta $10 neck brace because its on the fee schedule. That is not capitilism, sorry. Everyone gets screwed in that situation.
I have one client, a chiropractor, who refuses to take insurance, medicare, or medicaide or any govt insurance. Cash only. He is doing great and there is no paperwork, no nonsense, and no waiting for his money. The patients pay for what they use and he offers all sorts of deal to them based on volume discounts, etc. Everyone likes it.
PLEASE READ:
Those are all tangible products using different technology and production methods. Insurance cannot be compared at all with these products. Insurance is not even a tangible good nor does it take any innovation or technology to produce. I really hope you are not this juvenile when you discuss this concept.
Furthermore your argument is purely ignorant since there are WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY more Insurance companies offering a product, around 1200 companies with a around 4-5 GIANT Insurance Companies (yet costs are still extremely high) than there are Electronics manufactures, or cell phone brands or computer brands.
Your comparison makes zero sense and I hope you realize this.
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3333666, did you not realize that the fee schedule and medical equipment expense is set by the Private Insurance companies?
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Why is it retarted?
When there is true competition prices come down, period.
What we have now is not capatilism and you libs want to claim it is. Its the farthest thing from that since the actual user of the product, the patient, has no incentive to comparison shop, etc. Additionally, the doctors act on a fee schedule, not what the patient can pay. The perfect example of this is durable medical supplies. The suppliers are allowed to charge $90 for ta $10 neck brace because its on the fee schedule. That is not capitilism, sorry. Everyone gets screwed in that situation.
I have one client, a chiropractor, who refuses to take insurance, medicare, or medicaide or any govt insurance. Cash only. He is doing great and there is no paperwork, no nonsense, and no waiting for his money. The patients pay for what they use and he offers all sorts of deal to them based on volume discounts, etc. Everyone likes it.
it's totally retarded. there are factors that go into a product like say an mp3 player being cheap that just don't come in on this healthcare debate and you know it.
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Why is it retarted?
When there is true competition prices come down, period.
What we have now is not capatilism and you libs want to claim it is. Its the farthest thing from that since the actual user of the product, the patient, has no incentive to comparison shop, etc. Additionally, the doctors act on a fee schedule, not what the patient can pay. The perfect example of this is durable medical supplies. The suppliers are allowed to charge $90 for ta $10 neck brace because its on the fee schedule. That is not capitilism, sorry. Everyone gets screwed in that situation.
I have one client, a chiropractor, who refuses to take insurance, medicare, or medicaide or any govt insurance. Cash only. He is doing great and there is no paperwork, no nonsense, and no waiting for his money. The patients pay for what they use and he offers all sorts of deal to them based on volume discounts, etc. Everyone likes it.
NEWSFLASH,
Chiropractors are almost NEVER covered and are not medical doctors at all. He HAS to take cash. He has no choice. Chiropractic Procedures are not in any way medical at all nor are they considered medical or advocated by any medical organization. For the most part, the whole Chiro field is considered alternative quackery.
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I think that truly sucks!!! This is just like when they catered to the Repubs before when they didn't need to.
I think they should ram the public option through. If he doesn't, ...he's gonna lose alot of Democrat support.
he isnt catering to the reps jag he is catering to the majority of AMERICA...
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Here is my problem with her assesment just like obama they paint 2 seperate individual problems as one to try and pass their agenda. We CAN reform our current healthcare system without giving health insurance to everyone.
problem 1
the current problems within our health care system like pre-existing conditions, denied coverage, not being able to cross state lines, tort reform, costs
problem 2
millions without health insurance
these 2 problems are not connected and the majority of ppl are for reform but not for giving health care to everyone. Sorry the govt already sucks enough money out of our pockets if they free up money to pay for this then fine but our taxes should not be raised to pay for another govt hand out.
They tried to piggy back giving health care to everyone on our current health care problems and it didnt pass the smell test and it shouldnt its complete BS.
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NEWSFLASH,
Chiropractors are almost NEVER covered and are not medical doctors at all. He HAS to take cash. He has no choice. Chiropractic Procedures are not in any way medical at all nor are they considered medical or advocated by any medical organization. For the most part, the whole Chiro field is considered alternative quackery.
Many doctors used to operate the same way berfore we got the current situation we have.
Also, than explain this - why does Lipo, lasix eye surgery, boob jobs, etc all cost less now than they did years ago?
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Many doctors used to operate the same way berfore we got the current situation we have.
Also, than explain this - why does Lipo, lasix eye surgery, boob jobs, etc all cost less now than they did years ago?
Technology. Also, none of the above are covered by Insurance at all usually. Therefore costs have to come down for those procedures as they are paid out of pocket.
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Technology. Also, none of the above are not covered by Insurance at all usually. Therefore costs have to come down for those procedures as they are paid out of pocket.
No shit sherlock, that is why insurance is the problem. There is no incentive for the patient to be cost conscience because "someone else" is picking up the tab.
If the patient had to pay out of pocket and negoaitite with the doctor, pricies would come down massively.
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No shit sherlock, that is why insurance is the problem. There is no incentive for the patient to be cost conscience because "someone else" is picking up the tab.
If the patient had to pay out of pocket and negoaitite with the doctor, pricies would come down massively.
Right. So you know the problem, Private Insurance, yet you support them fully. Why?
Single Payer, what the rest of the Civilized World has, is the only solution.
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Right. So you know the problem, Private Insurance, yet you support them fully. Why?
Single Payer, what the rest of the Civilized World has, is the only solution.
I dont support the govt having anything to do with my health care. I dont trust Pelosi/Obama/Reid the same way you dont trust Bush/Gingrich/Dole/Palin.
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I dont support the govt having anything to do with my health care. I dont trust Pelosi/Obama/Reid the same way you dont trust Bush/Gingrich/Dole/Palin.
You trust the government on a daily basis. Why would you support an institution where the sole objective is to make money and profit off of human suffering?
I`d trust anyone who advocates Single Payer.
Its not that I don`t trust Bush/Gingrich/Dole or Palin as I do believe they really believe what they are saying, its that they are intellectually inferior, incompetent and incapable of addressing the needs of the United States based on their plans and policies.
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You trust the government on a daily basis. Why would you support an institution where the sole objective is to make money and profit off of human suffering?
I`d trust anyone who advocates Single Payer.
Its not that I don`t trust Bush/Gingrich/Dole or Palin as I do believe they really believe what they are saying, its that they are intellectually inferior, incompetent and incapable of addressing the needs of the United States based on their plans and policies.
I dont trust the government at all on ANYTHING!!!I dont even like that my kid is taught in government run schools,BUT I trust Church schools even less.Sorry,I cant think of one area where I trust the government.
By the way,see how cash for clunkers is working?As predicted the dealers arent getting reimbursed.The government cant do anything right.God forbid if they get their hands on health care.
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3333666, did you not realize that the fee schedule and medical equipment expense is set by the Private Insurance companies?
Most of the companies base their fee schedule upon the rates paid by Medicaire and Medicaid.
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I think that truly sucks!!! This is just like when they catered to the Repubs before when they didn't need to.
I think they should ram the public option through. If he doesn't, ...he's gonna lose alot of Democrat support.
First of all worry about your own country, our government doesn't need any help fucking this country up.
He can't ram anything through, you see this country is founded on the principal the government of the people, by the people, and for the people. Not the government can do any damn thing they please.
It is also unconstitutional, the federal government constitutional authority to implement a public option and they know it.
The constitution says what it means and means what it says.
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I dont trust the government at all on ANYTHING!!!I dont even like that my kid is taught in government run schools,BUT I trust Church schools even less.Sorry,I cant think of one area where I trust the government.
By the way,see how cash for clunkers is working?As predicted the dealers arent getting reimbursed.The government cant do anything right.God forbid if they get their hands on health care.
maybe we should be addressing WHY the government can't do anything right. And I'm saying that with true concern for what you say. There is validity in what you say. So let's ask, who do politicians answer to more? The people? Or Big Business? Their votes are all bought and paid for. Over years of bribed votes, we have some serious chaos going on. Right now it goes from God (if you believe that) to Big Business to Government to the people. It should go: From God to The People to Government to Big Business. Or nix God depending on what you believe but you get the point. I put The People as #1 personally.
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maybe we should be addressing WHY the government can't do anything right. And I'm saying that with true concern for what you say. There is validity in what you say. So let's ask, who do politicians answer to more? The people? Or Big Business? Their votes are all bought and paid for. Over years of bribed votes, we have some serious chaos going on. Right now it goes from God (if you believe that) to Big Business to Government to the people. It should go: From God to The People to Government to Big Business. Or nix God depending on what you believe but you get the point. I put The People as #1 personally.
Hugo - Big buisiness buys off the pols because the pols have so much power over so many areas and control so much $$$$ through the taxes everyone pays. Its no different than protection money businesses pay to the mafia.
If you want less corruption by pols, than we need to take power away from the pols in choosing winners and losers, especially through the tax code.
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Hugo - Big buisiness buys off the pols because the pols have so much power over so many areas and control so much $$$$ through the taxes everyone pays. Its no different than protection money businesses pay to the mafia.
If you want less corruption by pols, than we need to take power away from the pols in choosing winners and losers, especially through the tax code.
I barely follow on the first part, you lost me with your abbv. on the second part. WTF, expand please. I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
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I barely follow on the first part, you lost me with your abbv. on the second part. WTF, expand please. I'm not sure what you're trying to say.
Why would any corp. donate to pol:
1. They want protection from the government.
2. They want changes in the tax code, earmarks, grants etc.
This is no different than the mafia and organized crime.
In the mafia - you pay the local chieftrain either for protection money from other gangs or for a territory to do shit, like gambling, drugs, etc.
The govt is no different than the mafia in almost every respect.
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Why would any corp. donate to pol:
1. They want protection from the government.
2. They want changes in the tax code, earmarks, grants etc.
This is no different than the mafia and organized crime.
In the mafia - you pay the local chieftrain either for protection money from other gangs or for a territory to do shit, like gambling, drugs, etc.
The govt is no different than the mafia in almost every respect.
oh, you're backing up my point, my bust sorry.
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i think it started off innocently enough with ppl donating to politicians who they felt were more in line with their personal views. Like everything though ppl were bound to find a way to screw ppl and the system and this is what we are left with.
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If you take away the third party payer component and allow for the patient to be responsible somewhat for cost controls, you will see alot more downward pressure on costs. The third party payer system does not work, I agree with that.
(http://www.jaguarenterprises.net/images/em/laughing_at_u.gif)
The only downward pressure I see taking place is ...your skull which is obviously pressing down against your brain!
Comparing healthcare insurance to cell phones?! hahahahaha