"NO WE CAN'T"

[Hugo Chavez]

[24KT]

I think that truly sucks!!! This is just like when they catered to the Repubs before when they didn't need to.

I think they should ram the public option through. If he doesn't, ...he's gonna lose alot of Democrat support.

[Hedgehog]

I think they should ram the public option through. If he doesn't, ...he's gonna lose alot of Democrat support.

Are those voters gonna turn Republican?

[24KT]

Are those voters gonna turn Republican?

I doubt it. They just might do what alot of Republicans did last November, ...and just stay home next election.

[Hugo Chavez]

Are those voters gonna turn Republican?

nope, but they will vote third party or just not vote.  Check out my thread on Obama's poll numbers... If only 5 to 10 percent of the base bail, Obama is in real trouble.  Actually some of them might go republican.  The dems spent the last decade and a half talking up what fiscal conservatives they'd become.  Well they've managed in less than a year to destroy that image so they're sure to lose some of those voters too.

[Soul Crusher]

I think that truly sucks!!! This is just like when they catered to the Repubs before when they didn't need to.

I think they should ram the public option through. If he doesn't, ...he's gonna lose alot of Democrat support.

You guys must be livid over this.

60 votes in the Senate, the house, the presidency - and this nonsense is going on?

 

[The True Adonis]

You guys must be livid over this.

60 votes in the Senate, the house, the presidency - and this nonsense is going on?

 

Nothing to be livid about since the current plans offered are useless anyway.

If one is livid about anything, its the fact that Single Payer was never on the table from the start.  The current plans are nothing but Pure Capitalism that should appeal to all Republicans, yet they are fighting it.

Its quite amusing.

[Soul Crusher]

Nothing to be livid about since the current plans offered are useless anyway.

If one is livid about anything, its the fact that Single Payer was never on the table from the start.  The current plans are nothing but Pure Capitalism that should appeal to all Republicans, yet they are fighting it.

Its quite amusing.

Its not pure capitilism TA.  Its crony capitilism and proce fixing.  Its antitrust violations and mafia like tactics.

Go listen to the Celente interview I posted.  you may be surprised how much you agree with in there.   
 

[The True Adonis]

Its not pure capitilism TA.  Its crony capitilism and proce fixing.  Its antitrust violations and mafia like tactics.

Go listen to the Celente interview I posted.  you may be surprised how much you agree with in there.   
 

Its nothing different at all than what you have.  The only difference is the elimination of Pre-existing conditions. 

Stop your conspiracy theories and support the plans.  Its amazing that you are fighting against what you support.  I cannot for the life of me grasp the mind of your ilk.

I cannot support them whatsoever as there is ZERO change in effect.

[Hedgehog]

336, the problem is that many Democrats are just as owned by the health insurance industry as the Republicans are.

They will do anything to secure funds for their campaigns.

Even shoot down a decent health care initiative.

Because god forbid if there is universal health care that would cut off the feeding pipe for the insurance biz.

[Hugo Chavez]

Nothing to be livid about since the current plans offered are useless anyway.

If one is livid about anything, its the fact that Single Payer was never on the table from the start.  The current plans are nothing but Pure Capitalism that should appeal to all Republicans, yet they are fighting it.

Its quite amusing.

it's true, they did chop it to a fraction of what was most needed, but this was it.  If they do this, they neutered the very last thing that might have cost them (healthcare industy) a single dime.  absolutely no point in passing it now. It'll just go on to be a bill purely for the benefit of the insurance companies and by default, everyone else involved business wise.

[The True Adonis]

336, the problem is that many Democrats are just as owned by the health insurance industry as the Republicans are.

They will do anything to secure funds for their campaigns.

Even shoot down a decent health care initiative.

Because god forbid if there is universal health care that would cut off the feeding pipe for the insurance biz.

Its also a bit deeper than that.  The public is uneducated, raucous and ill-informed and some members may choose political expediency over doing what is truly the right thing.  May as well kick the can down the road because the public is so ill-informed and immune to facts is the thought of more than a few in congress.  Its horrible in all aspects.

[Hugo Chavez]

336, the problem is that many Democrats are just as owned by the health insurance industry as the Republicans are.

They will do anything to secure funds for their campaigns.

Even shoot down a decent health care initiative.

Because god forbid if there is universal health care that would cut off the feeding pipe for the insurance biz.

that's not true.  They've owed as much dems as they felt they needed to.  The party that's owned by them is the republican party by a much larger degree, they've paid them way more.

[Purge_WTF]

336, the problem is that many Democrats are just as owned by the health insurance industry as the Republicans are.

  Very true. In fact, I believe Olbermann said in one of his recent "Special Comments" that Obama himself got a very generous "donation" from some of those health-care vampires.

[The True Adonis]

The problem is that the Healthcare Industry is the result of Pure Capitalism.  It now has gotten "too big to fail".

[The True Adonis]

It's time to end our "risky experiment" of "For-profit health insurance". It's a proven failure.

HR676 (http://hr676.org) Single Payer system that is proven, pro-business and pro-people:

* Slashes at least 30% of costs off the top by removing private insurance overhead.
* Companies take health care expenses off their books. Stock value increases. Better able to compete internationally.
* Small companies could have access to higher skilled workers because previously they couldn't compete in the labor market by offering similar benefits.
* More entrepreneurial ventures will launch since they have more money and less unrelated risk.
* Dramatic drop in bankruptcies.
* Dramatic drop in lawsuits. Most of these lawsuits are simply to obtain money to cover health care if something interrupts their coverage.
* Reduced system complexity. Greater efficiency due to fewer regulations.
* Savings from employees not having to fight with their insurers during work hours.
* HSA and MSA dollars redirected back into the economy for goods and services.
* Additional money to spend from not having to carry "uninsured motorist coverage" on your auto policy.
* Contract employment is more viable for workers since they are guaranteed access to health care.
* People are covered when unemployed. No chance of being wiped out financially if you lose your job.
* Health care providers (doctors, hospitals, therapists...) see increase in business with much less administrative expense.

[Soul Crusher]

The problem is that the Healthcare Industry is the result of Pure Capitalism.  It now has gotten "too big to fail".

TA - you are going to believe what you want and that is fine. 

But tell me - serious - why is is that computers, cell phones, electronics, etc have all come down massively in price while the quality has gone up all while health insurance and medical costs have increased beyond the rate of inflation?

   

[Hugo Chavez]

 Very true. In fact, I believe Olbermann said in one of his recent "Special Comments" that Obama himself got a very generous "donation" from some of those health-care vampires.

we actually don't know all the details for sure, but he obviously cut some deal with them.  Some of the details have been posted here.  But, it's not true, I think more more money has gone to republicans.


This decade: to dems: $118,712,108 to republicans: $199,939,750

Note, the very first time the insurance companies decided to bring up their contributions for dems to meet what is given to republicans was in 08 and they've for the first time committed more contributions to dems  than republicans for 2010..  They're paying off a handful of dems bigtime, it's all they need to fuck it all up.  I have no idea why they've paid so much to republicans.  Wasted money, they would have gotten adequate help from them anyway.

[Hugo Chavez]

TA - you are going to believe what you want and that is fine. 

But tell me - serious - why is is that computers, cell phones, electronics, etc have all come down massively in price while the quality has gone up all while health insurance and medical costs have increased beyond the rate of inflation?

   

you're not serious?  That's a retarted comparison.

[Soul Crusher]

we actually don't know all the details for sure, but he obviously cut some deal with them.  Some of the details have been posted here.  But, it's not true, I think more more money has gone to republicans.


This decade: to dems: $118,712,108 to republicans: $199,939,750

Note, the very first time the insurance companies decided to bring up their contributions for dems to meet what is given to republicans was in 08 and they've for the first time committed more contributions to dems  than republicans for 2010..  They're paying off a handful of dems bigtime, it's all they need to fuck it all up.  I have no idea why they've paid so much to republicans.  Wasted money, they would have gotten adequate help from them anyway.

Instead of blaming evil corporations, you guys also need to look at the fact at how employer based health insurance came into effect in the first place.  It was to depress wages during WW2 and offer workers benes instead of wages.  The employer got to write it off the taxes, so it essentially is a tax issue.  

If you take away the third party payer component and allow for the patient to be responsible somewhat for cost controls, you will see alot more downward pressure on costs.  The third party payer system does not work, I agree with that.  

[240 is Back]

Only 41 to 43 dems are going to back it in its current form.  Obama knows it.  

Lose the public option, and he still gets clauses he wants, takes away the right to deny and some other things.  It's an improvement of 70%.  not 100%, but still 70%.  Better than nothing, which is what the last 5 or 6 presidents have managed to achieve on healthcare.

He's actually taking repub input now - pissing off both sides.  And Rs are sitll hating on him for it.

[The True Adonis]

TA - you are going to believe what you want and that is fine. 

But tell me - serious - why is is that computers, cell phones, electronics, etc have all come down massively in price while the quality has gone up all while health insurance and medical costs have increased beyond the rate of inflation?

   

Those are all tangible products using different technology and production methods.  Insurance cannot be compared at all with these products.  Insurance is not even a tangible good nor does it take any innovation or technology to produce.  I really hope you are not this juvenile when you discuss this concept.

Furthermore your argument is purely ignorant since there are WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY more Insurance companies offering a product, around 1200 companies with a around 4-5 GIANT Insurance Companies (yet costs are still extremely high) than there are Electronics manufactures, or cell phone brands or computer brands.

Your comparison makes zero sense and I hope you realize this.

[24KT]

Its not pure capitilism TA.  Its crony capitilism and proce fixing.  Its antitrust violations and mafia like tactics.

Go listen to the Celente interview I posted.  you may be surprised how much you agree with in there.   
 

I know I was, especially in light of the house majority... unless he's going through the motions of bipartisanship

[Hugo Chavez]

Only 41 to 43 dems are going to back it in its current form.  Obama knows it.  

Lose the public option, and he still gets clauses he wants, takes away the right to deny and some other things.  It's an improvement of 70%.  not 100%, but still 70%.  Better than nothing, which is what the last 5 or 6 presidents have managed to achieve on healthcare.

He's actually taking repub input now - pissing off both sides.  And Rs are sitll hating on him for it.

perhaps you missed the much larger amound of dems (100 house) who said that they would NOT support it without the public option.  Now what?

[Soul Crusher]

you're not serious?  That's a retarted comparison.

Why is it retarted?

When there is true competition prices come down, period.  

What we have now is not capatilism and you libs want to claim it is.  Its the farthest thing from that since the actual user of the product, the patient, has no incentive to comparison shop, etc.  Additionally, the doctors act on a fee schedule, not what the patient can pay.  The perfect example of this is durable medical supplies.  The suppliers are allowed to charge $90 for ta $10 neck brace because its on the fee schedule.  That is not capitilism, sorry.  Everyone gets screwed in that situation.  

I have one client, a chiropractor, who refuses to take insurance, medicare, or medicaide or any govt insurance.  Cash only.  He is doing great and there is no paperwork, no nonsense, and no waiting for his money.  The patients pay for what they use and he offers all sorts of deal to them based on volume discounts, etc.  Everyone likes it.