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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Dos Equis on March 21, 2010, 09:34:41 PM
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He couldn't get a single Republican vote. He could barely convince a majority of his own party to vote for the bill. He couldn't convince a majority of the American people to support the bill. So what exactly did he achieve here? I'm not talking about what the bill will supposedly do. I'm talking his ability to lead.
Certainly didn't show how he can bring the parties together, get public support, etc. The fact he had to twist the arm of his own party (probably through bribes) speaks volumes.
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His two major initiatives thus far: Stim bill and healthcare. Check and check.
Next? Amnesty (backdooring it in) and cap trade (renamed pollution control)
I don't think he gives a rats ass about being seen as a good leader. He has a leftist agenda, and gues what... he's passing it, piece by piece. He's said he'll trade being a 1-term president if it means enacting everything he wants, and it's looking like that so far.
While you worry about "how obama is viewed", healthcare, stim, amnesty, cap/trade are all cruising by.
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Nothing is cruising. He barely got the votes he needed today and as tony has pointed out, this may never become law.
I really see this as an enormous step backward from a leadership perspective.
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They can sue, and they will, but the reality of it is, the bill passed. As did the stim, and even FOX's Rivera admitted tonight the economy is turning around and he's gonna get credit for it, which may hurt GOP comeback chances in 2010.
His bills are passing. He's getting shit done, any way possible.
But hey, the world needs more leadership analysis threads. Carry on!
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Nothing is cruising. He barely got the votes he needed today and as tony has pointed out, this may never become law.
I really see this as an enormous step backward from a leadership perspective.
Explain that to me please? Maybe I'm an idiot, isn't it law when it's passed? ???
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repubs are saying they're gonna sue.
call the wahmbulance.....
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Explain that to me please? Maybe I'm an idiot, isn't it law when it's passed? ???
they basically passed the senate bill with ammendments now this bill has to go back to the senate for a vote on the bill but really basically on the ammendments since all but those have been approved by the senate. Then it will be sent to obama for him to sign and make it law, then you will have uber law suits LOL that will carry on for decades no doubt.
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Explain that to me please? Maybe I'm an idiot, isn't it law when it's passed? ???
A bill doesn't become law until the president signs it. If it's challenged (like at least two states have said they will), it may not be enforceable till it works its way through the courts. For all intents and purposes, it's a symbolic vote for least the next four or five years.
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they basically passed the senate bill with ammendments now this bill has to go back to the senate for a vote on the bill but really basically on the ammendments since all but those have been approved by the senate. Then it will be sent to obama for him to sign and make it law, then you will have uber law suits LOL that will carry on for decades no doubt.
Yeah. What he said. :)
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Yeah. What he said. :)
;D
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Well I'm assuming Obama will sign it, so lets hope it's stopped one of the other ways you two mentioned... :o
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Do you think there's any chance of the Senate rejecting it this time around?
Maybe if these lunatics sleep on it they'll see what's right?
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Well I'm assuming Obama will sign it, so lets hope it's stopped one of the other ways you two mentioned... :o
will be interesting to say the least, if the senate makes ammendments it will have to be sent back to the house for them to approve it before it gets sent to obama...
so this is possibly very far from being over, however they could pass it as is and it could be on obamas desk very soon.
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Do you think there's any chance of the Senate rejecting it this time around?
Maybe if these lunatics sleep on it they'll see what's right?
hmmm dont know, there is still alot of procedural stuff that I think needs to be cleared up...what reconciliation will actually allow as it is supposedly only for things relating to the budget or deficit cant remember its late, whether or not obamas executive order actually does anything b/c if it doesnt some anti abortion dems may vote against it.
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repubs are saying they're gonna sue.
call the wahmbulance.....
To be more precise the states say they are going to sue, which they have a constitutional right to do. You can't infringe on the sovereignty of the states and hopefully the courts will keep that in mind. However, I guarantee you the White House will do all it can to keep the states out of the court.
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As for what Obama accomplished, simple, he laid the foundation, he opened the door to lead to a single payer system.
Or in more accurate terms, he came one step closer to making the constitution obsolete.
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What exactly did he achieve?
Something no previous administration Dem or Republican had the will, stamina, testicular fortitude to get done.
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He couldn't get a single Republican vote. He could barely convince a majority of his own party to vote for the bill. He couldn't convince a majority of the American people to support the bill. So what exactly did he achieve here? I'm not talking about what the bill will supposedly do. I'm talking his ability to lead.
Certainly didn't show how he can bring the parties together, get public support, etc. The fact he had to twist the arm of his own party (probably through bribes) speaks volumes.
When you read FoxNews, CNN, or pretty much any news outlet, this is a major win for Obama.
This is what he pretty much campaigned on, and if he would've lost this, he would've been a lame duck.
Now on the other hand, he's been able to do what no other president has been able to do before him.
JFK, Clinton and five other presidents have all tried to introduce it.
Whether it is a good thing or not, that is debatable.
But I think once this is put into writing, the support for Obama and those who voted yes will grow.
Because there is always better to be a "doer" rather than an "obstructionist".
Just look at the Iraq war.
It was the wrong thing to do. There were no WMD's. Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with the attack on USA.
But it was the popular thing to do.
And those who opposed it back then really took a rough beating in polls.
I think perhaps the Republicans should've at one point decided that the bill was gonna pass and that they would be better off dealing in their own demands on condition on getting a unanimous vote.
That way they could've been seen as the "doers", and as the guys who made sure the health care bill ended up fiscally responsible and with freedom, et al.
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The GOP would have been holding a victory parade, calling it the win of the decade, if the bill had failed.
Yet when it passes, the dems can't call it a victory. Weird.
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The GOP would have been holding a victory parade, calling it the win of the decade, if the bill had failed.
Yet when it passes, the dems can't call it a victory. Weird.
How so? If the reps had won, the dems would have said the same thing...."its a travesty to the American people..." blah, blah, blah....
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yep. whining like little bitches.
the media was so funny. The MSNBS people were celebrating "something we've all worked so hard for and waited for, for so very long".
On FOX, it was more like 4 hot chicks talking about how this will destory America, with Geraldo playing devils advocate with softball Qs. "Michael steele, do you REALLY think your money campaign will get pelosi fired?"
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His two major initiatives thus far: Stim bill and healthcare. Check and check.
Next? Amnesty (backdooring it in) and cap trade (renamed pollution control)
I don't think he gives a rats ass about being seen as a good leader. He has a leftist agenda, and gues what... he's passing it, piece by piece. He's said he'll trade being a 1-term president if it means enacting everything he wants, and it's looking like that so far.
While you worry about "how obama is viewed", healthcare, stim, amnesty, cap/trade are all cruising by.
I know a doctor who I asked about this plan and you know what his answer to me was?
"Stay as healthy as you can and avoid the need for any medical care, because you wont be able to get eventually".
Anyone cheerring on this treason really should just be fucking shot at this point. We have 12 Trillian on debt, 107 Trillion in unfunded liabilites we have no way to pay for, and people think its a good thing to add another entitlement on all of this?
How fucking stupid are you people?
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"How fucking stupid are you people?"
I've called the bill a crap sandwich for 6 months, and my post above was about nothing more than his political strategy.
It's a call for repubs to WAKE THE FVCK UP and stop celebrating after the first quarter. you remember posting how "Palin destroyed health care reform with her facebook post!" and "Scott brown is vote 41 - the bill is dead!" Both turned out to be false, and this POS bill passed.
So I don't think it's fair to call me stupid here.
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"How fucking stupid are you people?"
I've called the bill a crap sandwich for 6 months, and my post above was about nothing more than his political strategy.
It's a call for repubs to WAKE THE FVCK UP and stop celebrating after the first quarter. you remember posting how "Palin destroyed health care reform with her facebook post!" and "Scott brown is vote 41 - the bill is dead!" Both turned out to be false, and this POS bill passed.
So I don't think it's fair to call me stupid here.
I'm not calling you stupid 240. I know you dont like this bill.
However, to me the sad reality is that we are now a nation of Julios, Henriettas, and Peggys, we are finished and going the way of Rome from within very quickly.
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to pass healthcare reform bam bam lied , cheated, bent rules, and paid people off, the exact thing he said was going to stop in washington if he became president, hope you all are enjoying the ass fucking this lieing piece of shit is shelling out
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240,the libertarian praising the destruction of America and patting Obama on the back.lol,what a clown.In two years the houses change,then the presidency in three years and all this will be overturned.Cap and trade will not pass anyway,in fact,I doubt Obama gets much more done.Democrats are not going to throw away their careers for him.He got this one by,but cap and trade,card check and the rest have no chance.
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I know a doctor who I asked about this plan and you know what his answer to me was?
"Stay as healthy as you can and avoid the need for any medical care, because you wont be able to get eventually".
Anyone cheerring on this treason really should just be fucking shot at this point. We have 12 Trillian on debt, 107 Trillion in unfunded liabilites we have no way to pay for, and people think its a good thing to add another entitlement on all of this?
How fucking stupid are you people?
so according to this doctor you talked with he/she says that due to this bill eventually no one will be able to get health care?
so doctors will just be sitting around doing nothing?
If no one will be able to get health care then what will have changed for the 30 million + people who don't have health insurance and can't get health care now?
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so according to this doctor you talked with he/she says that due to this bill eventually no one will be able to get health care?
so doctors will just be sitting around doing nothing?
If no one will be able to get health care then what will have changed for the 30 million + people who don't have health insurance and can't get health care now?
Straw - the reality is that there will be rationing and longer wait lines and restricted care. They have already told you that many times yet for some reason you didnt want to hear it.
Again - how do you add 30 Million new patients to a system without the medical providers to take in that new flood? This is not complicated math, even for a lib like yourself.
Additionally, more and more docs are not taking medicade & medicare patients, just as millions and millions are both retiring and being moved on to medicade. BTW - they are financing this mess with 500 billion in medicare cuts at the very same time tens of millions of boomers are moving on to medicare.
How you can not see this is just putting your head in the sand.
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Straw - the reality is that there will be rationing and longer wait lines and restricted care. They have already told you that many times yet for some reason you didnt want to hear it.
Again - how do you add 30 Million new patients to a system without the medical providers to take in that new flood? This is not complicated math, even for a lib like yourself.
Additionally, more and more docs are not taking medicade & medicare patients, just as millions and millions are both retiring and being moved on to medicade. BTW - they are financing this mess with 500 billion in medicare cuts at the very same time tens of millions of boomers are moving on to medicare.
How you can not see this is just putting your head in the sand.
The problem is that those predicutions are all from Repubs and they suck at predicting anything
Thats how I can ignore it
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The problem is that those predicutions are all from Repubs and they suck at predicting anything
Thats how I can ignore it
You mean like the Stim Bill keeping UE below 8%?
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You mean like the Stim Bill keeping UE below 8%?
No, I mean like every prediction that the GOP has made for the last 8+ years
Shit, let's go back to when Medicare was passed. Didn't Reagan say that was just the first step toward socialism and that soon the govt would tell your kid what kind of job they would have.
If the GOP Predictions are correct then they will be evident soon enough
More likely they are completely wrong and we'll all know that soon enought too
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No, I mean like every prediction that the GOP has made for the last 8+ years
Shit, let's go back to when Medicare was passed. Didn't Reagan say that was just the first step toward socialism and that soon the govt would tell your kid what kind of job they would have.
If the GOP Predictions are correct then they will be evident soon enough
More likely they are completely wrong and we'll all know that soon enought too
Fool, Medicare has 34 Trillion in unfunded liabilities we have no way to pay for and you applaud this?
Do you not even care about our national debt and fiscal insolvency we are racing to?
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Fool, Medicare has 34 Trillion in unfunded liabilities we have no way to pay for and you applaud this?
Do you not even care about our national debt and fiscal insolvency we are racing to?
doing nothing would only have gotten us there even sooner
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doing nothing would only have gotten us there even sooner
Great, hopefully when and if a gop pres is in there with a gop congress they can do the same thing as this.
If something is always better than nothing, as that is what is now the mantra, than good, I cant wait to see when the right does the same shit that just occurred.
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Obama accomplished what he set out to do. It shows as a leader he can get things done. I would think there would be some praise from a political standpoint on this board. Considering he took a massive risk and had failing support in his party, he rallied it around and go the bill through. From a purely political standpoint it shows he can face adversity and still prevail.
Lets make no mistake if this was killed every single republican on this board would be talking about how ineffective he is as a president, how stupid his is and so on. But now he passed it he's still somehow ineffective because republicans didn't come along? They were never going to vote for health care reform. They never have in all their years of running congress and they never will. It's against the principals of the party and all they hoped to do was stall it long enough, create enough fear and doubt in the public mind to win the 2010 primaries and kill any semblance of reform.
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Obama accomplished what he set out to do. It shows as a leader he can get things done. I would think there would be some praise from a political standpoint on this board. Considering he took a massive risk and had failing support in his party, he rallied it around and go the bill through. From a purely political standpoint it shows he can face adversity and still prevail.
Lets make no mistake if this was killed every single republican on this board would be talking about how ineffective he is as a president, how stupid his is and so on. But now he passed it he's still somehow ineffective because republicans didn't come along? They were never going to vote for health care reform. They never have in all their years of running congress and they never will. It's against the principals of the party and all they hoped to do was stall it long enough, create enough fear and doubt in the public mind to win the 2010 primaries and kill any semblance of reform.
The fact is that he has huge majorities in the congress. it was not as if he was working with a 50/50 SenatE and 50/50 House on this.
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The fact is that he has huge majorities in the congress. it was not as if he was working with a 50/50 SenatE and 50/50 House on this.
He did have majorities but lets not forget the in fighting that occurred in the democratic party. They may all be under the same banner but their was a lot of dissension over this. Particularly as the tea party gained momentum many were thinking more about themselves than the party. You highlighted this quite a lot i believe 333. The fact he could get them to vote through that in such a highly contentious issue shows he can be a very effective leader. He never wavered on it, never questioned it in the face of growing anger. He did what he felt was best and got his party to believe it too. It's the one area i always thought Bush was great in, when he believed something he didn't waiver. Right or wrong a leader has to do what he believes in. Surely you can praise him for that 333?
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He did have majorities but lets not forget the in fighting that occurred in the democratic party. They may all be under the same banner but their was a lot of dissension over this. Particularly as the tea party gained momentum many were thinking more about themselves than the party. You highlighted this quite a lot i believe 333. The fact he could get them to vote through that in such a highly contentious issue shows he can be a very effective leader. He never wavered on it, never questioned it in the face of growing anger. He did what he felt was best and got his party to believe it too. It's the one area i always thought Bush was great in, when he believed something he didn't waiver. Right or wrong a leader has to do what he believes in. Surely you can praise him for that 333?
Oh I said from day 1 he is a true believer and no Bill Clinton.
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They just passed a 2700 page bill costing $1.2 trillion in the first decade, adding 118 new federal agencies, and hiring 16,000 new IRS agents to enforce the $570 billion in new tax increases and police the mandated coverage, cut medicare over 600billion, increased taxes on various medical companies which will be passed onto us and a 4% tax increase on people making $200K/yr and people earning $ from investments...many are not millionaires/billionairs. This cuts into the upper middle class. Many of us agree on the good handful of provisions in this bill, it's the rest of it that is poor and should be ammended or repealed. Even if the bill is repealed, they will keep the popular provisions at this point.
No increased competition, no tort or malpractice reform either.
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Obama accomplished what he set out to do. It shows as a leader he can get things done. I would think there would be some praise from a political standpoint on this board. Considering he took a massive risk and had failing support in his party, he rallied it around and go the bill through. From a purely political standpoint it shows he can face adversity and still prevail.
Lets make no mistake if this was killed every single republican on this board would be talking about how ineffective he is as a president, how stupid his is and so on. But now he passed it he's still somehow ineffective because republicans didn't come along? They were never going to vote for health care reform. They never have in all their years of running congress and they never will. It's against the principals of the party and all they hoped to do was stall it long enough, create enough fear and doubt in the public mind to win the 2010 primaries and kill any semblance of reform.
I can't praise this at all from a leadership standpoint. He was a complete failure from that aspect. This guy campaigned on doing things differently in DC and talked a lot about bipartisanship. It was pure lip service. A true leader would not have disregarded the majority of the public and steamrolled the opposition. I'm really not impressed.
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I can't praise this at all from a leadership standpoint. He was a complete failure from that aspect. This guy campaigned on doing things differently in DC and talked a lot about bipartisanship. It was pure lip service. A true leader would not have disregarded the majority of the public and steamrolled the opposition. I'm really not impressed.
Uh you're thinking way too much with your angry right wing hat. Leaders make tough decisions and follow what they believe in. If a leader payed attention to polls all the time it'd be a pretty sh*tty presidency cause all it would take would be a little anger and he'd have to change everything again. Republicans were the party of no, they never had any intention of wanting health care reform, if they did why didn't we have it during their control periods? It's obvious they just wanted to stall and create fear. This is landmark legislation that in 10-20 years from now will be seen as a great step forward for America. Of course many a neo con will still be crying themselves to sleep.
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Uh you're thinking way too much with your angry right wing hat. Leaders make tough decisions and follow what they believe in. If a leader payed attention to polls all the time it'd be a pretty sh*tty presidency cause all it would take would be a little anger and he'd have to change everything again. Republicans were the party of no, they never had any intention of wanting health care reform, if they did why didn't we have it during their control periods? It's obvious they just wanted to stall and create fear. This is landmark legislation that in 10-20 years from now will be seen as a great step forward for America. Of course many a neo con will still be crying themselves to sleep.
You're thinking way too much with your liberal hack hat. Put on your common sense hat. A candidate who ran on a platform of changing the partisan environment in Washington failed to live up to that promise.
If we were only talking about polls, you might have a point. But it's much more than that. It's grass roots opposition. It's every Republican in DC opposing the bill. It's the failure of our leader to work with the opposition.