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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: 240 is Back on April 21, 2010, 07:35:03 AM
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Police would be able to detain ANYONE they wish - and demand to see "their papers".
You could be breaking no law, the police will be able to detain you, and if you don't have an ID, your ass is going to the lockup.
Do you support this law? it would be statewide in Arizona.
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YES!Police can do that now anytime they want to.They can pull you over and give any excuse they want.Just have your fucking papers and your fine.
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Arguments FOR: They could catch more illegals. Police could stop anyone they want and run 'their papers'.
Arguments AGAINST: Some serious freedom restrictions going on here. You are breaking no law, and you can be rounded up, ID'd, etc, and detained if you forgot your wallet.
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Arguments FOR: They could catch more illegals. Police could stop anyone they want and run 'their papers'.
Arguments AGAINST: Some serious freedom restrictions going on here. You are breaking no law, and you can be rounded up, ID'd, etc, and detained if you forgot your wallet.
That happens now.If your driving the cops can pull you over and give any excuse they want.If you have no license or ID they can drag you in.
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DETAIN
DEBRIEF
DEPORT
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I like the idea but I guess I have to say no due to other potentials. I would rather have border patrol allowed to fully be border patrol. From what I've seen in the news over the last decade they've been held back and limited and imprisoned for doing their job. If it had not been for that bullshit, AZ wouldn't be in a place where they felt it was needed to pass this new law. Why not put the pressure on letting BP do their job?
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I just want to be clear here... You guys actually support some law where ANY policeman can pull you out of a restaurant, off the street, out of a movie theater, or out of line at the grocery store, and demand to "See your papers now!"
???
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I just want to be clear here... You guys actually support some law where ANY policeman can pull you out of a restaurant, off the street, out of a movie theater, or out of line at the grocery store, and demand to "See your papers now!"
???
I dont believe that is how it is going to work.
IMHO, we should bring the troops home from a lot of areas and train them for border patrol and put them on the border.
We should also have ICE officers in every emergency room and jail.
I would also have an ICE officer in the school system and welfare office.
Also, we should jail employers who hire these people and make stiff jail and financial penalties.
We could solve this mess within 5 years if we wanted to.
IKE had "Operation Wetback" and it worked great.
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I just want to be clear here... You guys actually support some law where ANY policeman can pull you out of a restaurant, off the street, out of a movie theater, or out of line at the grocery store, and demand to "See your papers now!"
???
I actually said no.
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I just want to be clear here... You guys actually support some law where ANY policeman can pull you out of a restaurant, off the street, out of a movie theater, or out of line at the grocery store, and demand to "See your papers now!"
???
A cop can do this now.He can ask for ID anytime he wants and make up any excuse he wants.
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Guys, let me be the conservative in the room, if some of you want to just bend over and pray for lube.
Politicians are testing the water to see how a "Show us your papers!" policy would work in one state. They're using the whole "we can't stop illegals" angle, so people on the right (who would be screaming if Obama tried this shit in NYC) will support it.
once it passes in AZ, you'll see this shit in all the border states. Then, it'll be worked into other states once people are compliant.
I can't believe what pussies some of yall are being on this, no offence. If Obama proposed a nationwide "you must show your ID to any govt official who requests it", you'd be talking civil war 2. However, since he's doing it in baby steps, you are all for it. W T F?
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I dont believe that is how it is going to work.
IMHO, we should bring the troops home from a lot of areas and train them for border patrol and put them on the border.
We should also have ICE officers in every emergency room and jail.
I would also have an ICE officer in the school system and welfare office.
Also, we should jail employers who hire these people and make stiff jail and financial penalties.
We could solve this mess within 5 years if we wanted to.
IKE had "Operation Wetback" and it worked great.
none of what you just said applies to the question. I want this solved as much as you.
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BILLY, if you're standing in line at the grocery store with your family, and some cop randomly pulls you out of line and cuffs you while he runs your papers...
You're cool with that?
Yes, cops make up bullshit reasons in traffic, but that doesn't make it right. This law allows them to pull your beet red ass out of a wedding, a funeral, lunch, wherever, and detain and ID you.
You are cool with that?
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240 created a straw man argument.
The issue is going to be that once detained, if the officer has reasonal suspicion to believe theperson is illegal that he can take action on that.
That would come about as a result of fradulent id's, bogus info, and other stuff like that.
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A cop can do this now.He can ask for ID anytime he wants and make up any excuse he wants.
doesn't make it right imo, I don't care what the supreme court of idiots says.
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my ass was handcuffed this year.
I was armed, there was an amber alert in my area for a scruffy 30 year old with a kid that looked just like mine, and there had just been a police shooting x 4 the day before. Cops were on their toes, there was plenty of reason for me to go along with it.
And to this day, I still feel like shit when I drive past that parking lot where I spent 15 minutes in cuffs for doing absolutely fvcking nothing wrong.
You guys go ahead and play sheep on this one. When the Obama "domestic service" team has the ability to stop anyone in america and pull you out of your front yard raking leaves, in order to 'run your papers'... you don't bitch then.
Unless, of course, you trust the govt to do the right thing and not abuse its power ;)
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240 created a straw man argument.
The issue is going to be that once detained, if the officer has reasonal suspicion to believe theperson is illegal that he can take action on that.
That would come about as a result of fradulent id's, bogus info, and other stuff like that.
you're creating an idealistic argument. We all know as time goes along that's not the way it ends up working out.
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you're creating an idealistic argument. We all know as time goes along that's not the way it ends up working out.
True, but I do believe this can be tailored in a way to help out with this mess that the Feds refuse to deal with.
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333386,
If Obama created a law tomorrow that allowed him to stop any Americans at any time, run their papers, in order to make sure they weren't part of a 'domestic terrorism' operation, you'd be screaming.
Since it's brown people in another state that will be getting fvcked with... it's cool with you?
Today, if you're not breaking the law, and a cop demands papers, you get a lawyer and you sue his ass for violating your civil rights.
Tomorrow, should this law passes, if you visit AZ, you can be detained for as long as it takes for them to ID you. And should the power be down due to any event, guess what... maybe it'll just be easier to put people in compounds. Then we can check their IDs on the computer once the power comes back on ;)
You see how this shit could be abused?
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True, but I do believe this can be tailored in a way to help out with this mess that the Feds refuse to deal with.
I'd rather have BP allowed to do their job fully in this matter. As a country, we're not much of a country unless we have established and enforced borders. That's what needs fixed. This just gives everyone less reason to demand it being fixed and less need for them to fix their bullshit.
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333386,
If Obama created a law tomorrow that allowed him to stop any Americans at any time, run their papers, in order to make sure they weren't part of a 'domestic terrorism' operation, you'd be screaming.
Since it's brown people in another state that will be getting fvcked with... it's cool with you?
Today, if you're not breaking the law, and a cop demands papers, you get a lawyer and you sue his ass for violating your civil rights.
Tomorrow, should this law passes, if you visit AZ, you can be detained for as long as it takes for them to ID you. And should the power be down due to any event, guess what... maybe it'll just be easier to put people in compounds. Then we can check their IDs on the computer once the power comes back on ;)
You see how this shit could be abused?
GMAFB with your race nonsense.
This is going to work in a way that if some mexi gets pulled over and has a forged NC drivers license in AZ and other info pops up that is obviously false, he gets deported, as it should be.
Same for other stuff.
they can do this now 240.
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I'd rather have BP allowed to do their job fully in this matter. As a country, we're not much of a country unless we have established and enforced borders. That's what needs fixed. This just gives everyone less reason to demand it being fixed and less need for them to fix their bullshit.
However, if the FEDS refuse to do their jobs and the states are left to deal with their negligence, what are they supposed to do? Nothing?
Illegals are not only blight, but they are bankrupting states and cities.
These states usually have an obligation to have a balanced budget and cant do it if they are forced to pay out billions to pay for illegal invaders who are raping and bleeding the system dry.
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I hope this law becomes Federal law.
If you are not doing anything wrong, if you are legal, what the hell do you have to fear?
This measure along with using troops on the border, ICE agents and local police working together to arrest illegal immigrants and scrutiny/heavy fines for businesses that hire illegals will curtail illegal immigration.
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This argument that "does it make it right" is the dumbest thing Ive read.There are a MILLION laws and a million things this government does thats an outrage.The idea that you look at your check and they take over a third of it is wrong.The idea that they can drug test high school athletes is a disgrace.The idea that they can take your land and claim emininant domain is a disgrace.
I used to drive a car with tints on the window.I was pulled over at least twice a month because they assumeD A DRUG DEALER WAS DRIVING THE CAR.So what?I showed them my license and registration and went on my way.Cops can pull you out of line ask for your papers now and say you fit the description of a guy who just commited a crime now,anytime they want.
Almost everything this government does is wrong,the idea that we are outraged over this and not by our hard earned money being stolen and redistributed to pieces of lazy shit is silly to me.
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A cop can do this now.He can ask for ID anytime he wants and make up any excuse he wants.
exactly like in former communist countries. I know it from my own experience. Now if THAT is not moving closer to a police state I dont know what is. :o
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exactly like in former communist countries. I know it from my own experience. Now if THAT is not moving closer to a police state I dont know what is. :o
So instead we should be a bankrupt state because we refuse to curb the invasion of these freeloaders?
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So instead we should be a bankrupt state because we refuse to curb the invasion of these freeloaders?
No we shouldn't, but maybe you should think twice when bitching about socialism and communism happening in this country especially when the pure essence of communism( control people ) is happening right under your nose and you SUPPORT IT :o That's just hypocritical of you.There is need for a serious and viable solution that doesn't trample all of our country's principles as democracy and sets us back 50 years like it's the case with this law.
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No we shouldn't, but maybe you should think twice when bitching about socialism and communism happening in this country especially when the pure essence of communism( control people ) is happening right under your nose and you SUPPORT IT :o That's just hypocritical of you.There is need for a serious and viable solution that doesn't trample all of our country's principles as democracy and sets us back 50 years like it's the case with this law.
Take your ignorant liberal tripe to DU moron.
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beefing up border patrol and actually KICKING OUT illegals when they catch them, would be the way to go.
Giving the obama national police the ability to detain ANY AMERICAN at ANY TIME? That's just nuts.
It's hilarious... if Obama was the one standing in the white house rose garden trying to sell his idea of violating your civil rights like this, you'd be pissed. Since it's repubs doing it, hey, let's do it... I'm used to having police violate my rights for no reason.
Just remember 33386.... the next time some moron flies his small plane into a building, the next time a militia gets rowdy, the next time some guy shoots up his workplace... Obama will have this power to use AS HE SEES FIT.
If his 'national domestic team' decides every bald white guy with guns and muscle should be detained, ID'd and maybe a step further searched... you can't complain because you supported this law.
I just don't get it. You have mccain saying it's okay to lose some rights for safety, and you have ed schultz super lib, crying that this violates our rights, that police will be able to abuse it, etc.
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240 - like many other subjects you are clueless on the details of how these things work in reality.
In many jurisidictions local and state pd cant do anything when they find someone being here illegally as the FEDS have juridisdiction over those issues. However, when the FEDS completely neglect their duties, the states, WHO FOOT THE BILL FOR THIS INVASION, have to do something.
From what i can tell this bill is to deal with situations where they pull a guy over whose info is obviously bogus and giving the local le the ability to refer the guy for immigration deportation.
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in that case - focus our energies on FIXING THE PLACES THAT DONT KICK OUT THE ILLEGALS.
They could deliver a nice statewide bill requiring illegals be kicked out. Instead, they want to further push this police state.
I'm not liking it because of the POTENTIAL. Do you want obama and napaliano to have the power to detail any american they wish for ID purposes? Do You trust obama not to use this beyond "stopping people who look like illegals"?
Remember, it only take any kind of event for this bill to be used in other ways. Suppose we get attacked, power grid is down, and there are rumors of more bald white muscular armed white guys that were involved. You okay with spending 6 months in a camp while they 'work out your papers'?
Shit dude, you know the law. You know this could very well be step 1 of a 10 or 20 point obama plan. I'm shocked youre defending more police control of our lives.
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I'm supporting giving local police the ability to transfer illegals for the FEDs for deportation when they find them in the course of their duties.
I have illegal mexicans lined up and down streets near me and the local pd cant do squat about about it. They have made a complete mess of the neighborhood and it looks like Mexico City.
Sunday mornings these vagabons are drinking beers on the stoops at 9am and throwing trash all over the place.
My friend had to go out with a shovel and almost blast one dude cause he wouldnt get off the property.
I have ZERO tolerance for these people and those who defend them being here illegally.
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Take your ignorant liberal tripe to DU moron.
I'm not sure what you mean by DU but you 're not doing yourself a service acting like an idiot. I guess trying to counter back with a rational argument is not in your vocabulary... ;) but then why need to counter back when you can call me a moron and dismiss my point of view since it doesnt totally agree with yours...smart. ::) ::) Pretty communist of you,dont you think so?? ;D
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I'm not sure what you mean by DU but you 're not doing yourself a service acting like an idiot. I guess trying to counter back with a rational argument is not in your vocabulary... ;) but then why need to counter back when you can call me a moron and dismiss my point of view since it doesnt totally agree with yours...smart. ::) ::) Pretty communist of you,dont you think so?? ;D
When you stated we are a democracy I pretty much laughed off everything else. We are a Federal Republic, not a democracy.
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PLEASE POINT OUT THE PART OF THIS BILL THAT GIVES THE POLICE THE AUTHORITY TO STOP ANYONE WITHOUT REASON 240
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When you stated we are a democracy I pretty much laughed off everything else. We are a Federal Republic, not a democracy.
yes if you wanna get technical but we are a democratic free society ..am I correct?
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http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/04/21/arizona.immigration.bill/index.html?hpt=T2
Arizona's bill orders immigrants to carry their alien registration documents at all times and requires police to question people if there's reason to suspect they're in the United States illegally.
more 240 idiocy ::)
if youre in this country illegally then youre BREAKING THE FUKING LAW!!!!!!!
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This whole 'if there's reason to suspect'...
Can you break that down a little further?
What is the criteria?
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240 is just spinning garbage as usual.
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This whole 'if there's reason to suspect'...
Can you break that down a little further?
What is the criteria?
you break it down you tool, youre the one saying they can run around stopping anyone they want...what the fuck didnt you even look into this shit before you came on here spouting off at the mouth?
did you get this info from the nat enq and just assume it was true like palin cheating on her husband?
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Again. So what if a cop stops you or pulls you over and asks for your id. That has happened to me a few times and I never had a problem with it.
People act like these illegal immigrants' only infraction is crossing the border or sneaking by boat. There is identity theft, falsification of SSI numbers and licenses, insurance fraud (they live in NJ but their vehicles are in another person's name and registered in PA or NY) and a host of other things. My cousin is a cop and he has told me about illegal immigrants getting into accident, sometimes killing a person, and they just run off. No way to track who the actual driver was because car is not under their name, vehicle can't be tracked to rightful owner and when it is tracked to the owner, the owner disappears never to be heard of again.
Illegal immigration causes a lot more problems than people think. Not to mention thousands of Americans that can't get work because contractors will hire an illegal first for a much lower pay rate.
Apply the law in a nationwide scale. So what if you are inconvenienced at times. If you are legal, it won't affect you.
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the police now have the ability to stop and question anyone they please. Police can question people "if there's reason to suspect they're in the United States illegally. "
What reason is that, specifically? Anyone?
This law can be abused. This law give every a-hole cop the ability to fvck with anyone they want because "I suspect he might be here illegally" can be used as a blanket defense.
If they want to fvck with 333386, they can claim they believed he might be an illegal immigrant from italy. They can pull him out of line buying an ice cream cone, detain, demand ID, etc.
I don't like police having this much power because I fear it's too damn vague, and only a step away from "Show us your papers please" Russia.
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the police now have the ability to stop and question anyone they please. Police can question people "if there's reason to suspect they're in the United States illegally. "
What reason is that, specifically? Anyone?
This law can be abused. This law give every a-hole cop the ability to fvck with anyone they want because "I suspect he might be here illegally" can be used as a blanket defense.
If they want to fvck with 333386, they can claim they believed he might be an illegal immigrant from italy. They can pull him out of line buying an ice cream cone, detain, demand ID, etc.
I don't like police having this much power because I fear it's too damn vague, and only a step away from "Show us your papers please" Russia.
Many places, they have long been able to do that anyway. Loitering is a common charge when someone doesn't have ID on them.
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the police now have the ability to stop and question anyone they please. Police can question people "if there's reason to suspect they're in the United States illegally. "
What reason is that, specifically? Anyone?
This law can be abused. This law give every a-hole cop the ability to fvck with anyone they want because "I suspect he might be here illegally" can be used as a blanket defense.
If they want to fvck with 333386, they can claim they believed he might be an illegal immigrant from italy. They can pull him out of line buying an ice cream cone, detain, demand ID, etc.
I don't like police having this much power because I fear it's too damn vague, and only a step away from "Show us your papers please" Russia.
My drivers' license is legitimate as as is my CCW, insurance card, car registration etc.
I dont drive around NYC with a car registered to NC looking like it is one step outside of the junk yard.
This is not rocket science.
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the police now have the ability to stop and question anyone they please. Police can question people "if there's reason to suspect they're in the United States illegally. "
What reason is that, specifically? Anyone?
This law can be abused. This law give every a-hole cop the ability to fvck with anyone they want because "I suspect he might be here illegally" can be used as a blanket defense.
how is that different from any other law we have on the books you dumb shit?
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the police now have the ability to stop and question anyone they please. Police can question people "if there's reason to suspect they're in the United States illegally. "
What reason is that, specifically? Anyone?
you tell us numb nut youre the one saying that they can stop anybody for no reason...are you admitting you dont know whether they can or not?
b/c it sure seemed like you had irrefutable proof on the first page from the way you were posting...
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If it passes... any person in AZ can now be pulled out of raking his yard, buying an ice cream cone, going for a morning jog, etc.
He will have to present official documents showing identity.
If he doesn't have it, he will be charged.
Now, I understand crime there sucks and they need to pull a few troops from iraq and put them on the border, I'm cool with that.
But you guys are looking at the smaller picture. Police have discretion, and many times, they are bad apples. You have the right to go about your business. Wait til this shit is legal. They'll put your ass in cuffs on the curb until they're satisfied you're legal. You just assume it'll be a friendly chat with a smiling officer.
Wait til you're on the curb cuffed, and the paperwork is taking conveniently long enough for them to check, that they look thru your car, etc. or if there are 30 ppl in the crowd detained, and you end up sitting there all night.
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If it passes... any person in AZ can now be pulled out of raking his yard, buying an ice cream cone, going for a morning jog, etc.
He will have to present official documents showing identity.
If he doesn't have it, he will be charged.
Now, I understand crime there sucks and they need to pull a few troops from iraq and put them on the border, I'm cool with that.
But you guys are looking at the smaller picture. Police have discretion, and many times, they are bad apples. You have the right to go about your business. Wait til this shit is legal. They'll put your ass in cuffs on the curb until they're satisfied you're legal. You just assume it'll be a friendly chat with a smiling officer.
Wait til you're on the curb cuffed, and the paperwork is taking conveniently long enough for them to check, that they look thru your car, etc. or if there are 30 ppl in the crowd detained, and you end up sitting there all night.
so you dont know anything about this bills details but youve ascertained all of this?
again how is what you feel any different from any other law we have on the books?
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dumb shit... numbnut.... well i see where this is going, have a good one
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dumb shit... numbnut.... well i see where this is going, have a good one
240 - some of your posts elicit these types of insults as you can not possibly believe some of the stuff you type.
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dumb shit... numbnut.... well i see where this is going, have a good one
well again you dont know the details of the bill yet are condeming it...
dont realize that every law on the books is at the discretion of the officers, yet you dont like this bill
ya...Id say your a dumb shit and a numb nut ;)
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Arizona Voters Support Controversial Immigration Bill, Poll Finds
FOXNews.com
An overwhelming majority of Arizona voters support a controversial bill that would give state officials broad new powers to arrest people suspected of being illegal immigrants, a new poll finds.
An overwhelming majority of Arizona voters support a controversial bill that would give state officials broad new powers to arrest people suspected of being illegal immigrants, a new poll finds.
The Rasmussen Reports poll found 70 percent of likely voters in Arizona back the bill, which cleared the state Legislature this week and awaits the governor's signature, despite concerns about potential civil rights violations.
The survey found 53 percent of voters are worried that immigrants' civil rights could be infringed in the effort to find and deport illegal immigrants. Forty-six percent were not concerned about that possibility.
But for immigrant-rights activists in Washington and elsewhere, the state bill has become a flashpoint in the national debate.
Rep. Luis Gutierrez, D-Ill., who has led the charge against the bill on Capitol Hill, said Wednesday that he wants the Department of Justice to be prepared to "go immediately to court" to stop Arizona officials from enforcing the law if it is signed.
"There will be many, many people, American citizens, whose rights will be violated when the police come to them for no other reason than to check their immigration status," he told Fox News.
The Arizona bill would create a new misdemeanor crime for failing to have an alien registration document; allow officers to arrest anyone unable to show documents proving their legal residence in the country; and allow people to sue over claims that a government agency is hindering immigration enforcement.
The Rasmussen poll reflected bipartisan support for the bill in Arizona. Eighty-four percent of Republicans support it -- but so do 51 percent of Democrats. Forty-three percent of Democrats oppose it.
The poll of 500 likely voters was conducted last Wednesday. It had a margin of error of 4.5 percentage points.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/04/21/arizona-voters-support-controversial-immigration-poll-finds/?test=latestnews
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People are sick of this crap.
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So instead we should be a bankrupt state because we refuse to curb the invasion of these freeloaders?
No, the full on police state is a much better option. ::) Actually we already have a police state, all this stuff just acts like anchors.
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I hope this law becomes Federal law.
If you are not doing anything wrong, if you are legal, what the hell do you have to fear?
This measure along with using troops on the border, ICE agents and local police working together to arrest illegal immigrants and scrutiny/heavy fines for businesses that hire illegals will curtail illegal immigration.
You're such a fool that it's scary... :o
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beefing up border patrol and actually KICKING OUT illegals when they catch them, would be the way to go.
Giving the obama national police the ability to detain ANY AMERICAN at ANY TIME? That's just nuts.
It's hilarious... if Obama was the one standing in the white house rose garden trying to sell his idea of violating your civil rights like this, you'd be pissed. Since it's repubs doing it, hey, let's do it... I'm used to having police violate my rights for no reason.
Just remember 33386.... the next time some moron flies his small plane into a building, the next time a militia gets rowdy, the next time some guy shoots up his workplace... Obama will have this power to use AS HE SEES FIT.
If his 'national domestic team' decides every bald white guy with guns and muscle should be detained, ID'd and maybe a step further searched... you can't complain because you supported this law.
I just don't get it. You have mccain saying it's okay to lose some rights for safety, and you have ed schultz super lib, crying that this violates our rights, that police will be able to abuse it, etc.
YES!
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You're such a fool that it's scary... :o
How do you propose we boot out the illegals?
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How do you propose we boot out the illegals?
Instead of opening ourselves (citizens) up to abuse, why don't we just start inforcing the laws that are currently on the books, and allowing the boarder patrol to do their job?
I can't stand that bullshit "If you're not doing anything wrong you have nothing to fear" talk... Sounds like something a dumb ass German would say in the 1930's... ::)\
On the other hand, as far as I know police can stop any of us anytime anyway because of the Patriot Act...
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^or simply make up a reason^
nobody has yet to tell me how this law is any different than any other law we have on the books.
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^or simply make up a reason^
nobody has yet to tell me how this law is any different than any other law we have on the books.
I haven't read the whole thread. Did someone post the text of the bill?
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I haven't read the whole thread. Did someone post the text of the bill?
I posted something from cnn on it, I dont think its the exact text though...
apparently 240 hadnt done research or got his info from the nat. enq again and spouted off at the mouth without looking into it and then ran away when I called him out...
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I posted something from cnn on it, I dont think its the exact text though...
apparently 240 hadnt done research or got his info from the nat. enq again and spouted off at the mouth without looking into it and then ran away when I called him out...
Very common problem. I've said the same thing about the Patriot Act. People complain about it, but haven't read it (or even part of it).