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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Dos Equis on April 25, 2010, 11:26:51 AM
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Paranoid anti-religious extremists at it again. ::)
Complaint filed over prayers at Honolulu City Council sessions
Local citizens group files complaint; similar action planned against Senate
By Rob Perez
Advertiser Staff Writer
Before many of the City Council's recent monthly meetings, a Christian minister recited a prayer, invoking the name of Jesus or messages from the Bible.
The Legislature similarly has opened its legislative sessions with an invocation, some recited by Christian ministers.
But the practice of praying in the name of a specific religious figure or advocating a message linked with a specific religion is now under attack by advocates for separation of church and state.
The Hawai'i Citizens for Separation of State and Church filed a complaint with the council this month, noting that 25 of 27 meetings since January 2008 have been preceded by a Christian prayer or sermonizing.
The group says it also plans to file a similar complaint with Senate President Colleen Hanabusa and the state attorney general's office, alleging that sectarian prayers recited at the opening of each session violate the First Amendment of the Constitution.
"The law is clear on this issue," said Mitchell Kahle, president of the loosely organized citizens group, which had been inactive for several years until recently.
Prayer advocates say the practice is appropriate and offers spiritual guidance to government decision-makers during challenging times. "I think it's a good thing," said Pastor Eric Hara of New Wine to the Nations in Pearl City.
Hara was invited to give the "Message of Aloha" to the council before its February meeting and shared a passage from the Bible about how love never fails.
"I wouldn't shy away from saying what I believe in," Hara told The Advertiser. "I didn't come in the name of Buddha or Mohammed. I came in the name of Jesus."
ACLU MONITORING
In light of Kahle's complaint, council Chairman Todd Apo said he is reminding council members about existing guidelines to ensure the messages aren't overly religious. But he said he doesn't see a need for a policy change, even though a few of the recent messages have "gone deeper into religion than was appropriate."
Hanabusa said she intends to refer the complaint to the attorney general's office and will take guidance from that office and also ask members of the Senate's Democratic caucus how to proceed.
But she noted that the practice of opening the Senate session with an invocation predates her time in the Legislature , isn't limited to any one religion and is arranged by individual senators via a rotation arranged alphabetically.
"We don't screen," she said, adding that Buddhist priests, rabbis and even Senate staff members have delivered the messages in the past.
Kahle's group isn't the only one raising questions about the practice.
Dan Gluck, senior staff attorney with the American Civil Liberties Union, said his group will be monitoring council meetings to see how the aloha messages are handled.
"We're always concerned that governmental bodies stay within the narrow limits set by the Supreme Court," Gluck said.
In citing the nation's high court, legal scholars say government-sponsored invocations generally are considered constitutional as long as they remain nonsectarian, don't invoke the name of a specific religious figure or don't endorse a particular religion.
Kahle cites various court rulings in his city complaint to argue that the City Council's recent practices go well beyond what the law allows.
"We've had enough of Christians insulting citizens at public meetings," Kahle wrote in a recent e-mail to a Catholic priest who delivered one of the council messages.
At the council's monthly meeting last week, Apo himself delivered the aloha message — a move applauded by Kahle.
Apo said that change wasn't in response to the complaint but was planned several months ago. Instead of seeking outsiders to deliver the aloha message, Apo said he is encouraging each council member to personally deliver it when that member's turn to arrange the delivery comes up.
The decision, however, ultimately is up to the member.
'EVIL SPIRITS INVADE'
Council member Gary Okino, a devout Christian, defended the invocation practice. As long as no religion is excluded, the invocations are permissible, Okino said, though he acknowledged that mostly Christian pastors end up being invited.
Okino also downplayed an ethics complaint that Kahle filed against him over an e-mail Okino sent from his home computer to members of a Christian network. The e-mail focused on Kahle's prayer complaint and mentioned comments Kahle made at last week's council meeting.
The e-mail was entitled, "Evil Spirits Invade the City Council." Okino said the e-mail was intended for a private audience.
"I'm not speaking as a council member," he said of the e-mail. "I'm speaking as a Christian to my fellow Christian fellows."
http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/20100425/NEWS04/4250358/Complaint+filed+over+prayers+at+Honolulu+City+Council+sessions
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people in hawaii are so funny.
here in the mainland, it's all about drive-by's, home invasions and staggering unemployment and home repos.
out there, people filing complaints about prayers. haha lucky!
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Bum - is anyone who objects to public prayer automatically a paranoid anti-religious extremist to you?
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Bum - is anyone who objects to public prayer automatically a paranoid anti-religious extremist to you?
is anyone who believes in God silly?
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is anyone who believes in God silly?
of course not
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of course not
good to know
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Bum - is anyone who objects to public prayer automatically a paranoid anti-religious extremist to you?
Nope.
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of course not
::)
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::)
If that's what you think then you either haven't been paying attention or you have an profounding simplistic world view.
I live in a secular country that allows freedom of religious belief and I completely understand why some people choose to believe in God, higher power, etc..and I don't think that it is silly at all.
I may think that certain aspects of many different religions are bizzare ( and many also dangerous) but that's not the same as a general belief in a god
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If that's what you think then you either haven't been paying attention or you have an profounding simplistic world view.
I live in a secular country that allows freedom of religious belief and I completely understand why some people choose to believe in God, higher power, etc..and I don't think that it is silly at all.
I may think that certain aspects of many different religions are bizzare ( and many also dangerous) but that's not the same as a general belief in a god
::) You are as dishonest (or dumb) as they come. This is sort of like the lie you told about not using drugs, only to be shown your own statements about smoking marijuana. Or the lie you told the other day about not criticizing the physical appearance of many religious people, only to be confronted with "only one quote." Now you try and clean up your past loony comments by watering down your weirdo comments about religion. Past absurd comments include your belief that anyone with sincerely held religious beliefs is mentally ill:
Besides, my personal belief is anyone who holds a fundamentalist belief in any religion is mentally ill (for real) which again makes for a pointless discussion
Then there was your ridiculous contention that anyone who has a personal relationship with Jesus (i.e., nearly all Christians) is mentally ill:
I do think if you're speaking in tongues, dancing with rattlesnakes or even something as common as thinking you have a "personal relationship" with a 2000 year old rabbi then yeah, you might be mentally ill. There's nothing paranoid or intolerant about that.
You = paranoid anti-religious extremist.
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LoL…I figured you'd pull up at least one of rhose quotes
Like I said, you have a profoundly simplistic point of view.
Believing in god or a higher power, etc.is not the same thing as being a fundie extremist is it?
Once you start talking in tongues, killing abortion doctors, blowing yourself up etc...then we're talking about something completely different.
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::) You are as dishonest (or dumb) as they come. This is sort of like the lie you told about not using drugs, only to be shown your own statements about smoking marijuana. Or the lie you told the other day about not criticizing the physical appearance of many religious people, only to be confronted with "only one quote."
Bum - I respond to stuff very quickly and occassionally miss statements but I don't recall ever saying that I had never used drugs. My recollection is that I've been very open about drugs that I've used and conversely you won't even admit or deny you've smoked pot yet you have no problem acting like a righteous douche and criticizing others for smoking pot, even when they do it legally.
I've also never said that I don't makes comments about peoples physical appearance. My interpretation of your statement at the time was that you said I had made "many" comments on different occassions about the appearance of specific religious people (on this site or in the news, etc...) and that was what I was saying bullshit to. You can look at it any way you'd like. I know things like that are very hard for your simple mind to grasp and we've been over that one before anyway.
Go find the quote where you claim I've said I've never used drugs. You seem to have all my comments catelogued so it shouldn't be that hard for you
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Bum - I respond to stuff very quickly and occassionally miss statements but I don't recall ever saying that I had never used drugs. My recollection is that I've been very open about drugs that I've used and conversely you won't even admit or deny you've smoked pot yet you have no problem acting like a righteous douche and criticizing others for smoking pot, even when they do it legally.
lol. You are a friggin liar. lol.
I don't do drugs
Quote from: Straw Man on September 05, 2007, 06:40:49 PM
The only thing I've ever admitted is that I will occassionally smoke just like I will occassionally drink some wine.
MJ definitely impairs my driving ability and my lungs don't really appreciate it either. No scientific study needed, at least for me.
You should experiment with being honest. It's quite refreshing. :)
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lol. You are a friggin liar. lol.
You should experiment with being honest. It's quite refreshing. :)
straw used to be one of the better left leaning posters on here when i first started posting a couple yrs ago these days it seems like he has gone senile
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I drink coffee and green tea almost every day
I forgot to mention that
full disclosure
::)
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You should experiment with being honest. It's quite refreshing. :)
right on Bum
Have YOU ever smoked POT?
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straw used to be one of the better left leaning posters on here when i first started posting a couple yrs ago these days it seems like he has gone senile
Must be the drugs. :-\
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right on Bum
Have YOU ever smoke POT?
Bwahahahahahahahaha! That's the same thing you asked me the last time I exposed you for the liar you are. :D
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Bwahahahahahahahaha! That's the same thing you asked me the last time I exposed you for the liar you are. :D
Is that a YES or NO?
??
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lol. Nancy says:
(http://www1.cuny.edu/portal_ur/content/womens_leadership/exhibit/photos/nancy_reagan2.jpg)
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lol. Nancy says:
(http://www1.cuny.edu/portal_ur/content/womens_leadership/exhibit/photos/nancy_reagan2.jpg)
I didn't ask Nancy
I asked You?
Are you saying I should call you Nancy?
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You're alone on this one, you lying liar. Quit trying to deflect attention away from the fact you lied about your drug use. What did someone call you? A "useful idiot"? lol. ;D
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You're alone on this one, you lying liar. Quit trying to deflect attention away from the fact you lied about your drug use. What did someone call you? A "useful idiot"? lol. ;D
Look Nancy Boy
Try to pay Attention
you and I really can't have a conversation about Drugs and Drug Use
unless we can agree on basic stuff like verb tense
right?
Isn't that your argument?