Getbig.com: American Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure
Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: tbombz on May 24, 2010, 06:56:13 PM
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The Rules!
when it comes to training, the proof is in the pudding.
there are hundreds of books, ebooks, dvds etc dedicated to particular methods of training. some claim their way is the only effective way. some insist that certain ways wont work at all.
the idea of a "perfect training program" is flawed.
there isnt a single perfect program. you have only relative effectiveness. you can have a "best" training program. and a "second best". and so on.
but the first rule overrides any "best" program.. it is rule number one:
1. Periodization is king.
-"everything works, but nothing works forever".
a) even the best possible program can be adapted to by the body.
the second rule is a more commonly known of principle, but few people actually abide by it. this is the principle of progressive overload.
2. you must always get stronger.
-Kaizen method: small, incremental changes in weight week by week.
a) either more weight for equal reps, or more reps with equal weight.
these are two rules to bodybuilding training. lets come up with some more
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"true failure" is a misnomer. there is no such thing as "true failure", there is only "perceived failure".
perceived failure is the point when gravity's force over comes your own, when yor pushing(or pulling) "as hard as you can push" and you cant get the bar to move.
for all intensive purpouses, we can just use the term failure ineterchangably with perceived failure.
going to the point of "failure" causes significant trauma to the body, and hampers the ability of the body to recover. because of this, if one is goign to lift to the point of failure, their total volume of training must be low enough to compensat for the added demands on their recovery ability.
because of this fact, two distinct types of training emerge:
low volume, failure training
high volume, sub-failure training
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with this limited info we can actually develop "the perfect routine" ????
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Any kind of training or just bodybuilding?
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one more rule(this one scientific, and related to training frequency):
the bulk of protein synthesis occurs within 48 hours of a training bout.
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with this limited info we can actually develop "the perfect routine" ????
No such thing as a perfect routine. Every routine has it's flaws.
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"a) even the best possible program can be adapted to by the body."
That's the point? ;D ;D ;D
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one more rule(this one scientific, and related to training frequency):
the bulk of protein synthesis occurs within 48 hours of a training bout.
Science is not absolute. If it were there would be no need for debates.
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do you agree that after 2 or 3 days the growth response has finished occuring?? (and this is bodybuilding training)
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Nothing new to discuss Tbombz , the magic undiscovered routine doesn't exist, just train hard consistently.
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Medium/Low volume (depending on your definition of high volume)
High frequency
Sub-failure
If as you say, the bulk of protein synthesis occurs w/in 48 hrs of training you just need to focus on progressively getting stronger but not training so intensely to the point that you can't train very frequently.
Going by this, I aim to train a bodypart 3 times one week, 2 the next, then back to 3. But keeping work sets for each bodypart at 3-4 each session. Aiming for more weight or reps each session, eventually you will reach a point where you have to train to 'failure'. Once you can't increase either weight or reps, drop back the weight to a point where it will take you maybe 2 weeks to build back to where you couldn't increase anymore, and continue through. Or change exercise.
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get rowdy, that is exactly what i meant. high frequency is key.
every bodybuilder's goal shoudl be to train every muscle as frequently as they can without overtraining.
this leads to another rule:
if your getting the results, then you are not overtraining.
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Nothing new to discuss Tbombz , the magic undiscovered routine doesn't exist, just train hard consistently.
common sense prevails
the "perfect routine" must incorporate periodization.
that is the fatal flaw of all routines which claim to be the best
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this leads to another rule:
if your getting the results, then you are not overtraining.
Many programs are based on overreaching ie accumulated fatigue over a longer period of time. When a break is taken, the body compensates and you get bigger/stronger. This is just not seen during training, but only after the break. Why do you think strength athletes start to taper their training a few months or a month from a competition? So their body could rejuvenate and they could be at their strongest.
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here is what i am thinking
two phases.
1. high volume, sub failure.
2.very low volume, failure.
rotate back and forth between these two phases.
during high volume, sub failure training you will train in the 5-20 rep range and never go near the point of failure. you will use heavy weights and proper form. total sets can be as many as 50 (or more).
during low volume, failure trainign you will train in the 1-5 rep range and only do a one or two sets per body part, warm ups excluded. proper form is a must. you must push as far as you can for optimal results. (remember, no "true failure", only perceived failure)
at the end of each phase you must be using more weight than you did at the end of the previous time you completed that phase.
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I don't see much point in failure training. Who trains like that? Not pro bodybuilders. ;) You can get SO much stronger by avoiding failure like plague.
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common sense prevails
the "perfect routine" must incorporate periodization.
that is the fatal flaw of all routines which claim to be the best
Mmmm, no. I do periodize my programs leading up to a season but to periodize is not the only way and just because it's not used doesn't mean a program isn't just as effective. Seems you just learned a new word (periodization) googled some info and now you're ready to debate it.
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No such thing as a perfect routine. Every routine has it's flaws.
My routine is flawless
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People that bitch about over-training are not even close!!!!!
I train for 2-3 hours a day and I've never thought "oh my god, I'm over-training, I better back off"
Get in there and JUST LIFT weights like there is no tomorrow!
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Wernbom M, Augustsson J, Thomeé R. The influence of frequency, intensity, volume and mode of strength training on whole muscle cross-sectional area in humans. Sports Med. 2007;37(3):225-64.
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I don't see much point in failure training. Who trains like that? Not pro bodybuilders. ;) You can get SO much stronger by avoiding failure like plague.
haha fucking pussy. tell that to ronnie,levrone,dorian,etc...
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haha fucking pussy. tell that to ronnie,levrone,dorian,etc...
+ way way way more bodybuilders successful and otherwise
I think tbombz said failure training stimulated a greater % of muscle fibers as opposed to sub maximal sets
To be honest the best training periodization in my opinion and experience... would be suckmymuscle's thread about low volume training and high volume... very similar to what tbombz proposed in this thread... but suckmymuscle makes the proposal very convincing by going into the science behind it with very arrogant tones... also he is very good with the written word...
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here is what i am thinking
two phases.
1. high volume, sub failure.
2.very low volume, failure.
rotate back and forth between these two phases.
during high volume, sub failure training you will train in the 5-20 rep range and never go near the point of failure. you will use heavy weights and proper form. total sets can be as many as 50 (or more).
during low volume, failure trainign you will train in the 1-5 rep range and only do a one or two sets per body part, warm ups excluded. proper form is a must. you must push as far as you can for optimal results. (remember, no "true failure", only perceived failure)
at the end of each phase you must be using more weight than you did at the end of the previous time you completed that phase.
What is length of each periodization? Are you just using two phases in your periodization? When you start training for a show 12-16 weeks out are you still going to only use 2 periodizations? If so, why? Just a few things to consider!
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haha fucking pussy. tell that to ronnie,levrone,dorian,etc...
Ronnie trained to failure? Since when. ;)
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I train for 2-3 hours a day
You do?
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People that bitch about over-training are not even close!!!!!
I train for 2-3 hours a day and I've never thought "oh my god, I'm over-training, I better back off"
Get in there and JUST LIFT weights like there is no tomorrow!
Some can, others are like me. Training routines are like cowbow boots: One size doesn't fit all and most are way too ornate!
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Dogcrapp <------ is where it's at
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knowing your body and figuring out what exercises, training style and intensity level is optimal for you is the name of the game. Mental intensity, mind muscle connection are the true tools to developing muscle.
Any dickhead can go in the gym and throw weights around.
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I couldn't ever follow a set routine. I workout and wing it every time. When I do what I want in the moment it keeps my excitement to train high. In my six short years of training I've learned what works well.
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Progressive overload IS the king, and all the rest of there aspects are merely lowly servents.
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Progressive overload IS the king, and all the rest of there aspects are merely lowly servents.
this
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If you can add weight or reps with a exercize there is no need for periodisation imo, the body cant adapt to this. sure you will have a couple of workouts where you cant add weight, the reason is probably diet/sleep, but this shouldnt be the reason to do mediocore workouts. if you hit a plateau with a vertain weight, you aint gonna pass it by using lower intensity routines, just pick another exercize get strong there, then try the one you had plateau with. i dont be;lieve in high reps unless its calves or forearms.
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knowing your body and figuring out what exercises, training style and intensity level is optimal for you is the name of the game. Mental intensity, mind muscle connection are the true tools to developing muscle.
Any dickhead can go in the gym and throw weights around.
yes but it seems calves, quads and forearms need so much intensity to grow, if you dont have genetically wide bones on the forearms it seems impossible to make them look big, even in your case, they look very small, how hard do you train them?
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the idea here is progressive overload, combined with periodization.
this is an example
weeks 1-20 start with 100lbs for 10 reps on week1. by week 20 using 150lbs for 10 reps.
weeks 20-40 start with 200lbs for 3 reps on week 1. by week 20 using 300 lbs for 3 reps.
weeks 40-60 start with 140lbs for 10 reps on week 1. by week 20 using at least 160lbs for 10 reps.
weeks 60-80 start with 280lbs for 3 reps on week 1, by week 20 using at least 340lbs for 3 reps.
see how each time you return to a particular phase you must end up using more weight than you did at the end of the previous time you did that phase.
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the idea here is progressive overload, combined with periodization.
this is an example
weeks 1-20 start with 100lbs for 10 reps on week1. by week 20 using 150lbs for 10 reps.
weeks 20-40 start with 200lbs for 3 reps on week 1. by week 20 using 300 lbs for 3 reps.
weeks 40-60 start with 140lbs for 10 reps on week 1. by week 20 using at least 160lbs for 10 reps.
weeks 60-80 start with 280lbs for 3 reps on week 1, by week 20 using at least 340lbs for 3 reps.
see how each time you return to a particular phase you must end up using more weight than you did at the end of the previous time you did that phase.
You seem to like trueprotein.com. Do you or did you follow DC training and if so what was your experience/thoughts on it? I changed over to this training style for something different than what I had been doing the last few months and I'm interested to hear some feed back on anyone that's tried this method.
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Just curious tbombz, do you think that it's possible for a mature adult male to actualize his full muscular potential within 1 year or less? When I say mature, I mean over 25 years old. I'm not trying to call ya out man, I'm just curious how you see it.
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You do?
I do :D
Some can, others are like me. Training routines are like cowbow boots: One size doesn't fit all and most are way too ornate!
I know what you mean, everyone is different, It takes me 2-3 hours to make solid gains, it takes you 1 hour to make solid gains. Some of the most awesome bodybuilders I know train for only 45 mins.
You missed my point, say for example you train for 1 hour, and you go balls to the wall, and you are just beat after your work out (thats the same feeling I get after 2-3 hours).
But you don't get to the 1 hour mark and go "oh no I'd better stop here because if I keep going I'm going to overtrain and become catabolic" - no you stop after 1 hour of training because you have completed your entire work out and have annihlated the muscle you were training and are exhausted!!
My point is that some people are beat after an hour of lifting, some are beat after 2 hours of lifting.... my problem is stopping too short because of various myths that you read in magazines.
Does that make sense? Train until you tear down the muscle to the optimal levels - and that could be 45 mins, 1 hour, 2 hours, 3 hours..... but don't cut yourself short because "you don't want to overtrain"
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Ach, I can't train with both intensity and frequency. Some guys can but I've found that I just break down after only a couple weeks. My capacity for work far outpaces my capacity for recovery, so I just have to set limits for myself. I simply can't train to what I would consider exhaustion every workout. Some guys will know what I mean, and gifted guys like you and Ursus might not get it, but I've found through expeience that I will train myself into the ground otherwise. I wish I could recover at the same rate I'm willing to train but it just doesn't happen.
I just try to be aware of weeks when I'm feeling fresh and I can push a little harder, and also recognize when it's time to back it off.
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the idea here is progressive overload, combined with periodization.
this is an example
weeks 1-20 start with 100lbs for 10 reps on week1. by week 20 using 150lbs for 10 reps.
weeks 20-40 start with 200lbs for 3 reps on week 1. by week 20 using 300 lbs for 3 reps.
weeks 40-60 start with 140lbs for 10 reps on week 1. by week 20 using at least 160lbs for 10 reps.
weeks 60-80 start with 280lbs for 3 reps on week 1, by week 20 using at least 340lbs for 3 reps.
see how each time you return to a particular phase you must end up using more weight than you did at the end of the previous time you did that phase.
Am I to understand that these are 20 (TWENTY) week periodizations? Just checking!
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Not to be a dick Candy but you've been on for over two years now or something. I've been on even just lightly and it's like night and day. It's a good thread but it'll probably show what we already know, that what's too much for one guy isn't enough for another.
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if you cant train hard all the time its better to do 2 good workouts that week than 5 days halfassing it.
i mean whats the use of light workouts? you cant even maintain with it.
i think mentzer is right on the money with his approach, arnold did volume, but dont forget he too trained with lots of intensity
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El Mariachi, you can't (or shouldn't ) go heavy week in and week out. Every 4th week we deload, if that wasn't done my athletes would be jacked up. Like I said, there is no such thing as a "perfect" routine. When designing a routine there are a ton things that need to be considered. You just can't slap routine together with random exercises and few compound movements and call it good.
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yes but it seems calves, quads and forearms need so much intensity to grow, if you dont have genetically wide bones on the forearms it seems impossible to make them look big, even in your case, they look very small, how hard do you train them?
My forearms aren't small, what are you talking about?
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Lift heavy,eat alot of good food,cheat meals every once in awhile,bang hot bitches frequently,and get drunk when the occasion calls for it.
nothing else to discuss 8)
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knowing your body and figuring out what exercises, training style and intensity level is optimal for you is the name of the game. Mental intensity, mind muscle connection are the true tools to developing muscle.
Any dickhead can go in the gym and throw weights around.
Progressive overload IS the king, and all the rest of there aspects are merely lowly servents.
I think this pretty much sums it all up. I don't see the point in discussing training so much anyway.
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Ach, I can't train with both intensity and frequency. Some guys can but I've found that I just break down after only a couple weeks. My capacity for work far outpaces my capacity for recovery, so I just have to set limits for myself. I simply can't train to what I would consider exhaustion every workout. Some guys will know what I mean, and gifted guys like you and Ursus might not get it, but I've found through expeience that I will train myself into the ground otherwise. I wish I could recover at the same rate I'm willing to train but it just doesn't happen.
I just try to be aware of weeks when I'm feeling fresh and I can push a little harder, and also recognize when it's time to back it off.
Ok, makes sense, everyone is different for sure. And I'm by no mean gifted, just how I've always done it! You gotta do what works for you!