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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: MCWAY on September 24, 2010, 08:55:31 AM

Title: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: MCWAY on September 24, 2010, 08:55:31 AM
Obama Asks Religious Leaders to Preach the Gospel of HC Reform

With approval ratings plummeting and support for the new health care law waning, the president is scrambling for ways to sell his health care overhaul. Possibly looking for a miracle, he’s turning to church leaders who preach about such events to deliver one.

“Obama, alongside other top administration officials, beseeched thousands of faith-based and community organizations to preach the gospel on new insurance reforms, chiefly the Patients’ Bill of Rights.” That’s how Politico describes a conference call that featured the president on Tuesday.

“Get out there and spread the word,” the president encouraged religious leaders on the call. Politico reports that Obama also advised those listening to treat the new law as settled fact and use their perches of power to convey that message to congregants and friends.

“The debate in Washington is over,” he said, and called on the leaders to be “important validators and trusted resources,” regarding the law.

Despite reports and news that the new health care law is not fulfilling some of the promises Obama made regarding it, and that those within the president’s own party are distancing themselves from it, he still sees the law as a monumental piece of legislation that is good for the country:

This is something that we’ll be able to look back on, just like we do on Medicare and Social Security, as a cornerstone that improves the security of millions of Americans, at the same time lowers costs and gets control of costs, both at the government level, but also for families and businesses.

That‘s a sentiment that is not shared by all those in the president’s own party. For example, Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR) who voted for the health care bill is now encouraging his state to seek ways to bypass some of its requirement.

Tuesday’s conference call was organized by Health and Human Services Center for Faith-Based and Community Partnerships.

Recognizing the large task in front of the group, Joshua DuBois, director of the White House Office of Faith-based and Community Partnerships, outlined the task: “We’ve got work to do.”

My, my, my!!



http://www.theblaze.com/stories/obama-asks-religious-leaders-to-preach-the-gospel-of-hc-reforms/
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Agnostic007 on September 24, 2010, 09:09:13 AM
Saw this in the opinions section, thought it belonged here.... but not both..
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: MCWAY on September 24, 2010, 09:10:06 AM
Saw this in the opinions section, thought it belonged here.... but not both..

I accidentally put it there. It won't let me delete my own topic. Therefore, I just made a duplicate one here.
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Agnostic007 on September 24, 2010, 09:10:06 AM
The reason the left don't care about this is it is a non issue. No one listens to their pastor these days, hell catholics don't listen to the pope..
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Agnostic007 on September 24, 2010, 09:11:51 AM
I accidentally put it there. It won't let me delete my own topic. Therefore, I just made a duplicate one here.

cool...
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: MCWAY on September 24, 2010, 09:11:56 AM
The reason the left don't care about this is it is a non issue. No one listens to their pastor these days, hell catholics don't listen to the pope..

Oh really!! Whenever Bush did his faith-based initiatve thing, or any pastor held a rally regarding things like marriage amendment, we usually hear lefties go bananas, yelp about "separation of church and state", wail about yanking tax-exempt status of churches, etc.
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: The Showstoppa on September 24, 2010, 09:31:23 AM
Oh really!! Whenever Bush did his faith-based initiatve thing, or any pastor held a rally regarding things like marriage amendment, we usually hear lefties go bananas, yelp about "separation of church and state", wail about yanking tax-exempt status of churches, etc.

QFT....they are only "outraged" when it doesn't fit their view of the world.  But they are "liberal...."   ::)
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Straw Man on September 24, 2010, 09:55:56 AM
Oh really!! Whenever Bush did his faith-based initiatve thing, or any pastor held a rally regarding things like marriage amendment, we usually hear lefties go bananas, yelp about "separation of church and state", wail about yanking tax-exempt status of churches, etc.

yep and you bible thumping righties just shrugged it off and didn't have a problem with it so....what's the problem now?

we know it's going on, we can't stop it so let's just pull the tax exempt status (biggest fucking rip off in this country) and treat them like any other group
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Agnostic007 on September 24, 2010, 09:57:20 AM
I'm "liberal" in some regards, conservative in others..and as an agnostic, certainly think the government and organized religion should be separated.. When Churches start pushing political agendas then they cease to be exempt from taxation. Whether it's a democratic prez or a republican prez....

Who exactly did he call? Every preacher in North America?  How did they beseech "thousands" of them in a conference call?

On the other hand, if ANY president wants to call on Churches to forgo million dollar buildings, luxury cars for their preachers, and start actually helping the community, I'm all for that.
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Hugo Chavez on September 24, 2010, 09:59:36 AM
Ok, what politician or president prior to Obama opened the door for this shit? >:(  Was it just Obama or did some other sack of crap start this?
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: dario73 on September 24, 2010, 10:07:26 AM
yep and you bible thumping righties just shrugged it off and didn't have a problem with it so....what's the problem now?

we know it's going on, we can't stop it so let's just pull the tax exempt status (biggest fucking rip off in this country) and treat them like any other group

The complainers were liberal like yourself. Do you understand your hypocrisy or is that too complicated for you? The Left condemns the religious right for voicing their concerns when it comes to gay marriage, abortion, etc by proclaiming seperation of church and state. So why aren't you and the rest of the Obama supporters up in arms with this current situation?

Don't bother answering. You don't have any defense for it. Keep walking.
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Soul Crusher on September 24, 2010, 10:09:00 AM
Liberals only care when its someone on the right doing it. 

Typical liberal double standards, like on most other issues.   
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Agnostic007 on September 24, 2010, 10:11:46 AM
The complainers were liberal like yourself. Do you understand your hypocrisy or is that too complicated for you? The Left condemns the religious right for voicing their concerns when it comes to gay marriage, abortion, etc by proclaiming seperation of church and state. So why aren't you and the rest of the Obama supporters up in arms with this current situation?

Don't bother answering. You don't have any defense for it. Keep walking.

This ALWAYS goes both ways. Fox anchors were complaining about congress wasting money having Colbert appear before them... when the republicans have had Sesame Street characters appear ..... It never ends.... both parties do the same things all the time, then bitch about the other party doing it..
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Straw Man on September 24, 2010, 10:16:05 AM
The complainers were liberal like yourself. Do you understand your hypocrisy or is that too complicated for you? The Left condemns the religious right for voicing their concerns when it comes to gay marriage, abortion, etc by proclaiming seperation of church and state. So why aren't you and the rest of the Obama supporters up in arms with this current situation?

Don't bother answering. You don't have any defense for it. Keep walking.

do you understand that I'm against it in ALL cases

Tell me how we're going to police thousands of churhes, church groups, etc.. on a daily basis?

We know churches do this kind of stuff and it's nothing new (I remember hearing political sermons when being forced by my parents to attend mass in the 1970's) and I'm sure it was being done long before.  Shit go back to 200+years and look at all the regligious activism against Thomas Jefferson

If churches are going to engage in political activism then they need to lose their tax exempt status and I don't distinguish btween the right or left
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Straw Man on September 24, 2010, 10:16:56 AM
Liberals only care when its someone on the right doing it. 

Typical liberal double standards, like on most other issues.   

bullshit

typical 333 simply making up your own reality and then running with it
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Soul Crusher on September 24, 2010, 10:19:20 AM
bullshit

typical 333 simply making up your own reality and then running with it

Absolutely not - I don't remember you or anyone else complaining when Obama was using the black churches to campaign for him or the catholic churches pushing amnesty for illegals.

Yes, when the church pushes pro-life causes-  everyone freaks - but not when they push amnesty for illegals - why is that?   
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Dos Equis on September 24, 2010, 10:23:00 AM

“The debate in Washington is over,” he said,

You lie!   :)
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: dario73 on September 24, 2010, 10:23:10 AM
This ALWAYS goes both ways. Fox anchors were complaining about congress wasting money having Colbert appear before them... when the republicans have had Sesame Street characters appear ..... It never ends.... both parties do the same things all the time, then bitch about the other party doing it..

True.

But, here not a word from the Libs. They have shown a hatred for anything that is religious in nature. Yet, they don't mind it if it's pushing their agenda. HYPOCRISY.
If you hate religion that much, as many LIBS claim they do, they need to condemn interaction between church and government at every turn. Not just when they try to legalize gay marriages, which by the way, the majority of citizens in every single state where the measure has been up for vote (whether they are religious or not)has VOTED AGAINST IT. The people spoke but the judges keep going against their will. That is an issue where it isn't the church meddling. People from all walks of life have voted to not allow it.

I just want consistency. Something that Libs don't have, eventhough they believe they know more than everyone else.
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Straw Man on September 24, 2010, 10:23:36 AM
Absolutely not - I don't remember you or anyone else complaining when Obama was using the black churches to campaign for him or the catholic churches pushing amnesty for illegals.

Yes, when the church pushes pro-life causes-  everyone freaks - but not when they push amnesty for illegals - why is that?   

I'm againt any church involvement in politics.  I may not have posted on every thread or you may not recall it but I've always been against it in all cases.  

I think my views on the intersection of church/religion/politics have been pretty well known even if you can't remember them
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Soul Crusher on September 24, 2010, 10:23:50 AM
You lie!   :)

Obama and his treasonous ilk have no idea the anger and fury they are causing with these disastrous policies.  
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: dario73 on September 24, 2010, 10:24:13 AM
You lie!   :)

Damn right he is lying. And anyone who believes that Obamacare is not in danger of being repealed has not been paying attention.
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Soul Crusher on September 24, 2010, 10:25:23 AM
Damn right he is lying. And anyone who believes that Obamacare is not in danger of being repealed has not been paying attention.

The stories are nationwide as to the price spikes obamaCare are causing. 
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: MCWAY on September 24, 2010, 10:30:23 AM
yep and you bible thumping righties just shrugged it off and didn't have a problem with it so....what's the problem now?

we know it's going on, we can't stop it so let's just pull the tax exempt status (biggest fucking rip off in this country) and treat them like any other group

It appears you don't read very well. I don't have a problem with what Obama's doing, in this regard.

The point, which you clearly missed, was the absent of the howling from the left-winged goofies about politicians and churches, which normally occurs in cases involving state marriage amendments and pro-life rallies, as it relates to Obama's trying to get preachers to promote ObamaCare.
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Straw Man on September 24, 2010, 10:36:15 AM
It appears you don't read very well. I don't have a problem with what Obama's doing, in this regard.

The point, which you clearly missed, was the absent of the howling from the left-winged goofies about politicians and churches, which normally occurs in cases involving state marriage amendments and pro-life rallies, as it relates to Obama's trying to get preachers to promote ObamaCare.

here is your post which I responed to.

where do you say you're OK with it?

BTW - just so we're clear I'm NOT OK with it

Oh really!! Whenever Bush did his faith-based initiatve thing, or any pastor held a rally regarding things like marriage amendment, we usually hear lefties go bananas, yelp about "separation of church and state", wail about yanking tax-exempt status of churches, etc.
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: MCWAY on September 24, 2010, 10:40:58 AM
here is your post which I responed to.

where do you say you're OK with it?

BTW - just so we're clear I'm NOT OK with it


You asked me, rhetorically, "what's the problem, now?", implying that I had an issue with Obama's asking the men of the cloth to pitch his healthcare law. I don't. In fact, you may recall that I refer to it as "Praise the Lord; and vote for me" politics in which both sides engage, during election cycles.

But, as stated earlier, why does left yelp about it, when churches and politicans get involved on certain issues (i.e. marriage amendments, abortion) but get mushmouthed when their candidates get the Holy Ghost, especially when they hit black churches?

Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Soul Crusher on September 24, 2010, 10:41:46 AM
I think its wrong regardless of who does it.  Politics should be kept out of the church or there should be a way to easily strip them of tax exempt status. 
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: tu_holmes on September 24, 2010, 10:43:52 AM
If anyone thinks the answer to the problem is raising taxes or the baby Jesus... Go fuck yourself.
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Straw Man on September 24, 2010, 10:46:59 AM
You asked me, rhetorically, "what's the problem, now?", implying that I had an issue with Obama's asking the men of the cloth to pitch his healthcare law. I don't. In fact, you may recall that I refer to it as "Praise the Lord; and vote for me" politics in which both sides engage, during election cycles.

But, as stated earlier, why does left yelp about it, when churches and politicans get involved on certain issues (i.e. marriage amendments, abortion) but get mushmouthed when their candidates get the Holy Ghost, especially when they hit black churches?

the title of this thread ...."so much for separation of church and statet" makes it sound like you have a problem with it when Obama does it.

I have a problem when anyone does it and I don't know if your statement the the "left" is accurate.  One thing we know about Dems is that they don't have nearly the party unity that Repubs do.   Some Dems may be as you describe but many others are like me and want all churchses and religious groups to stay out of poitics

I have no idea what you mean about the Holy Ghost.  I thought that was a Cathoic thing. Do you fundies believe in that too.
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Dos Equis on September 24, 2010, 10:48:35 AM
I have no problem with religion being involved with politics.  Always has been, always will be.  There is nothing in the Constitution that requires "no involvement."  

The whole "entanglement" thing is a different story, but some folks mistakenly believe the First Amendment requires government to have no involvement, mention, or relationship with churches, religious entities, religious people, etc.  That's simply not the case.  

But what the president is doing here sounds like a violation of the IRS ban on churches engaging in partisan politics (if the churches actually do what he says).  
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Soul Crusher on September 24, 2010, 10:50:55 AM
I have no problem with religion being involved with politics.  Always has been, always will be.  There is nothing in the Constitution that requires "no involvement."  

The whole "entanglement" thing is a different story, but some folks mistakenly believe the First Amendment requires government to have no involvement, mention, or relationship with churches, religious entities, religious people, etc.  That's simply not the case.  

But what the president is doing here sounds like a violation of the IRS ban on churches engaging in partisan politics (if the churches actually do what he says).  

One of the reasons I left the catholic church years ago and never went back was their pushing "social justice" crap, amnesty for illegals, and other such nonsense. 

It was very off putting.   
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Dos Equis on September 24, 2010, 10:54:16 AM
One of the reasons I left the catholic church years ago and never went back was their pushing "social justice" crap, amnesty for illegals, and other such nonsense. 

It was very off putting.   

That kind of stuff doesn't bother me.  I do think churches and "religious" people have just as much right to participate in the political process as anyone else. 
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: MCWAY on September 24, 2010, 11:01:01 AM
the title of this thread ...."so much for separation of church and statet" makes it sound like you have a problem with it when Obama does it.

When have you ever heard me criticize any politician, regardless of political stripe, for doing the "Praise the Lord; and vote for me" thing? Or, when have you heard me cite "Separation of Church and State" on any issue?

My problem is the left's SCREAMING about conservative politicians and their involvement with churches on some issues (marriage, abortion, stem cell research), while they get mushmouthed about liberal politicians' involvement churches about other issues (ObamaCare, amnesty, redistribution of wealth).


I have a problem when anyone does it and I don't know if your statement the the "left" is accurate.  One thing we know about Dems is that they don't have nearly the party unity that Repubs do.   Some Dems may be as you describe but many others are like me and want all churchses and religious groups to stay out of poitics

Churches and religious groups should do no such thing. As MLK said, the church is neither the master nor the slave of the state. It should be its conscience. Politics is, of course, about policy, what is right and what is wrong. People's religious beliefs shape that; so church members and groups have a role in the process. It's the degree of that role that's the source of controversy.


I have no idea what you mean about the Holy Ghost.  I thought that was a Cathoic thing. Do you fundies believe in that too.

The Holy Ghost was around, long before there ever was a Catholic church. So, it's hardly just a Catholic thing.
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Straw Man on September 24, 2010, 11:08:18 AM
That kind of stuff doesn't bother me.  I do think churches and "religious" people have just as much right to participate in the political process as anyone else. 

churches as an entity have no right to get involved in the political process (not that it doesn't happen everday of course).

individual members, like any other citizen can do whatever political activism they want on their own.   

http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=96099,00.html

Exemption Requirements - Section 501(c)(3) Organizations
 
To be tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, an organization must be organized and operated exclusively for exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3), and none of its earnings may inure to any private shareholder or individual. In addition, it may not be an action organization, i.e., it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates.

Organizations described in section 501(c)(3) are commonly referred to as charitable organizations. Organizations described in section 501(c)(3), other than testing for public safety organizations, are eligible to receive tax-deductible contributions in accordance with Code section 170.

The organization must not be organized or operated for the benefit of private interests, and no part of a section 501(c)(3) organization's net earnings may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual. If the organization engages in an excess benefit transaction with a person having substantial influence over the organization, an excise tax may be imposed on the person and any organization managers agreeing to the transaction.

Section 501(c)(3) organizations are restricted in how much political and legislative (lobbying) activities they may conduct. For a detailed discussion, see Political and Lobbying Activities. For more information about lobbying activities by charities, see the article Lobbying Issues; for more information about political activities of charities, see the FY-2002 CPE topic Election Year Issues.

Additional Information

Application Process Step by Step:  Questions and answers that will help an organization determine if it is eligible to apply for recognition of exemption from federal income taxation under IRC section 501(a) and, if so, how to proceed.
 
 
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Soul Crusher on September 24, 2010, 11:11:58 AM
churches as an entity have no right to get involved in the political process (not that it doesn't happen everday of course).

individual members, like any other citizen can do whatever political activism they want on their own.   

http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=96099,00.html

Exemption Requirements - Section 501(c)(3) Organizations
 
To be tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, an organization must be organized and operated exclusively for exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3), and none of its earnings may inure to any private shareholder or individual. In addition, it may not be an action organization, i.e., it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates.

Organizations described in section 501(c)(3) are commonly referred to as charitable organizations. Organizations described in section 501(c)(3), other than testing for public safety organizations, are eligible to receive tax-deductible contributions in accordance with Code section 170.

The organization must not be organized or operated for the benefit of private interests, and no part of a section 501(c)(3) organization's net earnings may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual. If the organization engages in an excess benefit transaction with a person having substantial influence over the organization, an excise tax may be imposed on the person and any organization managers agreeing to the transaction.

Section 501(c)(3) organizations are restricted in how much political and legislative (lobbying) activities they may conduct. For a detailed discussion, see Political and Lobbying Activities. For more information about lobbying activities by charities, see the article Lobbying Issues; for more information about political activities of charities, see the FY-2002 CPE topic Election Year Issues.

Additional Information

Application Process Step by Step:  Questions and answers that will help an organization determine if it is eligible to apply for recognition of exemption from federal income taxation under IRC section 501(a) and, if so, how to proceed.
 
 


I agree 100%.  If they want to get involved in politics, they should lose their tax exempt status. 
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: tonymctones on September 24, 2010, 11:18:13 AM
The complainers were liberal like yourself. Do you understand your hypocrisy or is that too complicated for you? The Left condemns the religious right for voicing their concerns when it comes to gay marriage, abortion, etc by proclaiming seperation of church and state. So why aren't you and the rest of the Obama supporters up in arms with this current situation?

Don't bother answering. You don't have any defense for it. Keep walking.
LMFAO hahahah you guys remember when i said that straw man likes to make up the definitions of words to suit him...well ask what his definition of hypocrisey is...its a fuking hoot man....

go ahead straw lets hear it...
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Soul Crusher on September 24, 2010, 11:21:43 AM
Not to disrupt the thread - but is Hugo going to move this due to religious content?   
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Straw Man on September 24, 2010, 11:21:53 AM
LMFAO hahahah you guys remember when i said that straw man likes to make up the definitions of words to suit him...well ask what his definition of hypocrisey is...its a fuking hoot man....

go ahead straw lets hear it...

go back and read my response to Dario73 and see if you can figure it out
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: MCWAY on September 24, 2010, 11:22:00 AM
churches as an entity have no right to get involved in the political process (not that it doesn't happen everday of course).

individual members, like any other citizen can do whatever political activism they want on their own.   

http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=96099,00.html

Exemption Requirements - Section 501(c)(3) Organizations
 
To be tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, an organization must be organized and operated exclusively for exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3), and none of its earnings may inure to any private shareholder or individual. In addition, it may not be an action organization, i.e., it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates.

Organizations described in section 501(c)(3) are commonly referred to as charitable organizations. Organizations described in section 501(c)(3), other than testing for public safety organizations, are eligible to receive tax-deductible contributions in accordance with Code section 170.

The organization must not be organized or operated for the benefit of private interests, and no part of a section 501(c)(3) organization's net earnings may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual. If the organization engages in an excess benefit transaction with a person having substantial influence over the organization, an excise tax may be imposed on the person and any organization managers agreeing to the transaction.

Section 501(c)(3) organizations are restricted in how much political and legislative (lobbying) activities they may conduct. For a detailed discussion, see Political and Lobbying Activities. For more information about lobbying activities by charities, see the article Lobbying Issues; for more information about political activities of charities, see the FY-2002 CPE topic Election Year Issues.

Additional Information

Application Process Step by Step:  Questions and answers that will help an organization determine if it is eligible to apply for recognition of exemption from federal income taxation under IRC section 501(a) and, if so, how to proceed.
 
 


Key word...SUBSTANTIAL!

In other words, that should NOT be its primary mission, which it is NOT as far as churches are concerned. The law DOES NOT SAY, that churches can't get involved in such issues whatsoever.
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: MCWAY on September 24, 2010, 11:23:34 AM
Not to disrupt the thread - but is Hugo going to move this due to religious content?   

Why? This is a political issue. Obama's trying to get support for this debacle of his. It just so happens that, likely out of desperation, he's hititng the pews of churches.
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Straw Man on September 24, 2010, 11:28:23 AM
Key word...SUBSTANTIAL!

In other words, that should NOT be its primary mission, which it is NOT as far as churches are concerned. The law DOES NOT SAY, that churches can't get involved in such issues whatsoever.

they can talk about issues such as abortion, etc... but they can't endorse a candidate or tell their congregation that they can't vote for someone

may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates.


how many nutty preacher got in front of their church and told them they could not vote for Obama or Kerry because of their views on abortion or homosexual rights or that they had to vote for Bush because of any number of reasons.



Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: tonymctones on September 24, 2010, 11:29:37 AM
go back and read my response to Dario73 and see if you can figure it out
find a dictionary and look up hypocrite and see if you can  ;)
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Dos Equis on September 24, 2010, 11:32:40 AM
churches as an entity have no right to get involved in the political process (not that it doesn't happen everday of course).

individual members, like any other citizen can do whatever political activism they want on their own.   

http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=96099,00.html

Exemption Requirements - Section 501(c)(3) Organizations
 
To be tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, an organization must be organized and operated exclusively for exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3), and none of its earnings may inure to any private shareholder or individual. In addition, it may not be an action organization, i.e., it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates.

Organizations described in section 501(c)(3) are commonly referred to as charitable organizations. Organizations described in section 501(c)(3), other than testing for public safety organizations, are eligible to receive tax-deductible contributions in accordance with Code section 170.

The organization must not be organized or operated for the benefit of private interests, and no part of a section 501(c)(3) organization's net earnings may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual. If the organization engages in an excess benefit transaction with a person having substantial influence over the organization, an excise tax may be imposed on the person and any organization managers agreeing to the transaction.

Section 501(c)(3) organizations are restricted in how much political and legislative (lobbying) activities they may conduct. For a detailed discussion, see Political and Lobbying Activities. For more information about lobbying activities by charities, see the article Lobbying Issues; for more information about political activities of charities, see the FY-2002 CPE topic Election Year Issues.

Additional Information

Application Process Step by Step:  Questions and answers that will help an organization determine if it is eligible to apply for recognition of exemption from federal income taxation under IRC section 501(a) and, if so, how to proceed.
 
 


Now don't wet your pants because I'm actually responding to one of your posts, and this will likely be my only one for the day,  :) but once again you don't know what the heck you're talking about.  Did you even read what you posted?  

"In addition, it may not be an action organization, i.e., it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates."

Did you miss the word "substantial"?  In other words, they can attempt to influence legislation.  For example, the Mormon church campaigned against homosexual marriage in California, which did not interfere with their tax exempt status.  

Further, they cannot participate in "campaign activity for or against political candidates."  That doesn't mean they cannot hold rallies, campaign for or against issues (as opposed to candidates), etc.  In essence, they are precluded from engaging in partisan politics if they want to maintain their tax exempt status.  

Class dismissed.  
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Straw Man on September 24, 2010, 11:32:55 AM
find a dictionary and look up hypocrite and see if you can  ;)

do it yourself
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Dos Equis on September 24, 2010, 11:33:45 AM
Key word...SUBSTANTIAL!

In other words, that should NOT be its primary mission, which it is NOT as far as churches are concerned. The law DOES NOT SAY, that churches can't get involved in such issues whatsoever.

Hey I just said that.   :D
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Straw Man on September 24, 2010, 11:43:16 AM
Now don't wet your pants because I'm actually responding to one of your posts, and this will likely be my only one for the day,  :) but once again you don't know what the heck you're talking about.  Did you even read what you posted?  

"In addition, it may not be an action organization, i.e., it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates."

Did you miss the word "substantial"?  In other words, they can attempt to influence legislation.  For example, the Mormon church campaigned against homosexual marriage in California, which did not interfere with their tax exempt status.  

Further, they cannot participate in "campaign activity for or against political candidates."  That doesn't mean they cannot hold rallies, campaign for or against issues (as opposed to candidates), etc.  In essence, they are precluded from engaging in partisan politics if they want to maintain their tax exempt status.  

Class dismissed.  

Nancy - don't flatter yourself

you only resopnd when you feel safe that you might not look like a complete fool and your lack of response just shows that you're getting smarter about keeping your mouth shut

Just because a church get's involved in politics and doesn't lose their tax exempt status doesn't mean they are not violating the law.   It just means that no governemtn official has the balls to do anything about it.
  
 
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Straw Man on September 24, 2010, 11:48:28 AM
Hey I just said that.   :D

he said it before you dipshit

I wish our country would set up standards on what "substantial" means and then start stripping churches of their tax exempt status when they violate it

I'm sure you and McWay would be all for that right

I think pouring millions of dollars into advertising, PACS, etc.. to influence legislation qualifies as substantial but i agree with you that we need to set standards for this stuff rather than letting it remain ambigous and open to violation and abuse of the law
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Dos Equis on September 24, 2010, 11:51:24 AM
LOL!  The Village Idiot is all over this one.   :D
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Soul Crusher on September 24, 2010, 11:53:18 AM
LOL!  The Village Idiot is all over this one.   :D

I really think religion needs to but out of these things.  Its wrong. 
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: MCWAY on September 24, 2010, 11:55:17 AM
I really think religion needs to but out of these things.  Its wrong. 

And miss out on Hilary Clinton's butchering "I Don't Feel Noways Tired"??

NOT A CHANCE!!!

 ;D
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Dos Equis on September 24, 2010, 11:57:27 AM
I really think religion needs to but out of these things.  Its wrong. 

Why? 
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Straw Man on September 24, 2010, 11:58:02 AM
I really think religion needs to but out of these things.  Its wrong. 

agreed 100%

good luck trying to get any fundie to understand

Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Dos Equis on September 24, 2010, 11:59:12 AM
And miss out on Hilary Clinton's butchering "I Don't Feel Noways Tired"??

NOT A CHANCE!!!

 ;D

She tried to sing that song? 
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Soul Crusher on September 24, 2010, 12:06:05 PM
agreed 100%

good luck trying to get any fundie to understand



I'm sorry, but this is one area I really disturbing, regardless of who does it. 

Religions and churchs have captive audiences, often times with children in attendance, and have an heir of authority on many issues while serving as head of a congregation and should understand their role.  Their role is to give religious and moral guidance, not politics.

If they do their jobs, and the congregants feel a certain way, they don't need the pastor or bishop wading into these issues. 

Additionally, to me its just stupid since what if 50% of the people disagree with the political side the person takes?  Its like music people blasting Bush.  I'll give one example - I went to a concert with Lamb of God, and the lead singer was ranting about Bush this, and Bush that.  guess what, it really turned me off and I won't see them again.   Its like - STFU and sing and perform - if I want politics I will go to FR, HP etc. 

I assume many feel the same way about church, but maybe I am wrong. 
 
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: The Showstoppa on September 24, 2010, 12:11:51 PM
I'm sorry, but this is one area I really disturbing, regardless of who does it. 

Religions and churchs have captive audiences, often times with children in attendance, and have an heir of authority on many issues while serving as head of a congregation and should understand their role.  Their role is to give religious and moral guidance, not politics.

If they do their jobs, and the congregants feel a certain way, they don't need the pastor or bishop wading into these issues. 

Additionally, to me its just stupid since what if 50% of the people disagree with the political side the person takes?  Its like music people blasting Bush.  I'll give one example - I went to a concert with Lamb of God, and the lead singer was ranting about Bush this, and Bush that.  guess what, it really turned me off and I won't see them again.   Its like - STFU and sing and perform - if I want politics I will go to FR, HP etc. 

I assume many feel the same way about church, but maybe I am wrong. 
 

it's bewst for the pastor to just jump around and yell " Goddamn America!"  ;)
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Soul Crusher on September 24, 2010, 12:14:03 PM
it's bewst for the pastor to just jump around and yell " Goddamn America!"  ;)

Ha ha ha ha ha .   

Bro - you made me almost piss my pants. 
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: The Showstoppa on September 24, 2010, 12:16:25 PM
Ha ha ha ha ha .   

Bro - you made me almost piss my pants. 

 ;D
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Dos Equis on September 24, 2010, 12:17:14 PM
I'm sorry, but this is one area I really disturbing, regardless of who does it. 

Religions and churchs have captive audiences, often times with children in attendance, and have an heir of authority on many issues while serving as head of a congregation and should understand their role.  Their role is to give religious and moral guidance, not politics.

If they do their jobs, and the congregants feel a certain way, they don't need the pastor or bishop wading into these issues. 

Additionally, to me its just stupid since what if 50% of the people disagree with the political side the person takes?  Its like music people blasting Bush.  I'll give one example - I went to a concert with Lamb of God, and the lead singer was ranting about Bush this, and Bush that.  guess what, it really turned me off and I won't see them again.   Its like - STFU and sing and perform - if I want politics I will go to FR, HP etc. 

I assume many feel the same way about church, but maybe I am wrong. 
 

You have a point if they are engaging in partisan politics.  But I don't have a problem with a church, preacher, or "religious" person talking about things like abortion, homosexuality, taxes, other social issues, etc.  Not a big deal.  A person doesn't have to check their views at the church steps.  "Religious" people should participate in the political process.  

Also, if it bothers a church member they can do what you did and leave the church (or find someplace else to worship).  

My pastor doesn't talk politics much, but when he does touch on political issues, it doesn't bother me.  
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: BM OUT on September 24, 2010, 12:38:25 PM
If I was in church and the preacher said something positive about the health care bill,I would scream "shut your fucking mouth and stick to preaching ahole".Who would sit there and listen to that crap?
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Skip8282 on September 24, 2010, 12:43:23 PM
If I was in church and the preacher said something positive about the health care bill,I would scream "shut your fucking mouth and stick to preaching ahole".Who would sit there and listen to that crap?



Won't get invited to Christmas dinner doing that...
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: tu_holmes on September 24, 2010, 01:00:34 PM
You have a point if they are engaging in partisan politics.  But I don't have a problem with a church, preacher, or "religious" person talking about things like abortion, homosexuality, taxes, other social issues, etc.  Not a big deal.  A person doesn't have to check their views at the church steps.  "Religious" people should participate in the political process.   

Also, if it bothers a church member they can do what you did and leave the church (or find someplace else to worship). 

My pastor doesn't talk politics much, but when he does touch on political issues, it doesn't bother me. 

Healthcare is a social issue is it not?
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Dos Equis on September 24, 2010, 01:02:09 PM
Healthcare is a social issue is it not?

Not necessarily.  It's a business/tax issue more than anything else (at least for me).  I guess it depends on how you frame the issue.
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Soul Crusher on September 24, 2010, 01:03:39 PM
Healthcare is a social issue is it not?

So is stealing and theft no?

ObamaCare = theft.   
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: tu_holmes on September 24, 2010, 01:06:56 PM
Not necessarily.  It's a business/tax issue more than anything else (at least for me).  I guess it depends on how you frame the issue.

When you talk about taxes, there are far greater evils that my tax dollar is spent on than Healthcare. I'd rather cut a lot of other shit and keep some kind of Healthcare plan, then to just bitch about Healthcare.

So is stealing and theft no?

ObamaCare = theft.   

3333, it's no more theft than medicare, social security, or any other social program that we have.

I'm not saying it's some great idea, but it's no better or worse than those.


Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Soul Crusher on September 24, 2010, 01:08:42 PM
When you talk about taxes, there are far greater evils that my tax dollar is spent on than Healthcare. I'd rather cut a lot of other shit and keep some kind of Healthcare plan, then to just bitch about Healthcare.

3333, it's no more theft than medicare, social security, or any other social program that we have.

I'm not saying it's some great idea, but it's no better or worse than those.




Right - so we take one bad idea, double down with stupid, and applaud ObamaCare?


www.usdebtclock.org

 
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: tu_holmes on September 24, 2010, 01:21:59 PM
Right - so we take one bad idea, double down with stupid, and applaud ObamaCare?


www.usdebtclock.org

 

I'm not applauding the healthcare bill... What I'm saying is that there if you're talking about wasted tax dollars, then it's not in Healthcare... that is not the waste.

I'm all for healthcare if you can pay for it... You want to have healthcare, great... cut every other department and pay for healthcare.

I'm saying that military, transportation, social services... everything gets cut and we get to a point where we can pay for healthcare and still not have a deficit.
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Dos Equis on September 24, 2010, 01:32:21 PM
When you talk about taxes, there are far greater evils that my tax dollar is spent on than Healthcare. I'd rather cut a lot of other shit and keep some kind of Healthcare plan, then to just bitch about Healthcare.


I wasn't really comparing it to anything else, but yes there are greater evils, like the stimulus money being used for African ball washing. 
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: tu_holmes on September 24, 2010, 01:35:38 PM
I wasn't really comparing it to anything else, but yes there are greater evils, like the stimulus money being used for African ball washing. 

I think you have to compare it... Just like at your house... If you want to pay for cable TV, but you don't make that much money, you have to choose the more important things to pay for instead of cable.

It's just life... I think you should cut a ton more stuff than healthcare.
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Soul Crusher on September 24, 2010, 01:37:01 PM
I'm not applauding the healthcare bill... What I'm saying is that there if you're talking about wasted tax dollars, then it's not in Healthcare... that is not the waste.

I'm all for healthcare if you can pay for it... You want to have healthcare, great... cut every other department and pay for healthcare.

I'm saying that military, transportation, social services... everything gets cut and we get to a point where we can pay for healthcare and still not have a deficit.

I disagree - our military comes first in my mind, always.    
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Dos Equis on September 24, 2010, 01:41:09 PM
I think you have to compare it... Just like at your house... If you want to pay for cable TV, but you don't make that much money, you have to choose the more important things to pay for instead of cable.

It's just life... I think you should cut a ton more stuff than healthcare.

I agree about having to prioritize spending, cuts, and whatnot.  I don't think that applies to healthcare.  It should have never been passed in the first place.  We're broke.  We should be cutting taxes and decreasing spending.  We should be reducing the size and reach of the federal government.

Instead, we're hiring IRS agents, adding to the deficit and debt, and creating a massive bureaucracy.  
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: tu_holmes on September 24, 2010, 01:51:44 PM
I disagree - our military comes first in my mind, always.   

Military will always be first... We spend 1 Trillion dollars on our military every year... More than the next 10 countries combined.

If I cut military spending 25%, I'm still spending more than the next 7 countries combined and still have the most powerful military force on earth.

Do you think we should NOT cut our military?

Really?

I can cut 25% out of our military just by closing every single foreign base in the world... Then if someone wants me in their country, they can ASK me to come, but I'm not just going to hang around other countries anymore.

Why the fuck are we in Germany or Guam... Fuck that shit.
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Arnold jr on September 25, 2010, 01:15:29 AM
The problem is not keeping religion out of politics, never has been, in-fact, that argument is rather stupid. As I'm sure everyone here knows, nowhere in the constitution or the words "The separation of church & state." The only thing mentioned is congress shall establish nor prohibit any religion.

Here's the thing, the problem is when government infiltrates the church in order to pass policy...not when religion is part of government, meaning, when religion is part of a politicians principles, that's fine. If a governing individual rules based on the convictions of his principles, this is proper, when a government official uses the church to influence policy, this is a problem...there is a big difference in-between the two.

And the idea that someone can govern without their principles, which are held by their religion or lack thereof, that idea that a person should or even can withhold his principles is beyond naive and simply stupid.

What Obama is doing here is outright wrong.
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Montague on September 25, 2010, 04:14:34 AM
Ok, what politician or president prior to Obama opened the door for this shit? >:(  Was it just Obama or did some other sack of crap start this?


And, which piece of crap promised us all this "change?"

One asshole repeating another asshole's mistakes does not make those mistakes right.
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Dos Equis on September 27, 2010, 11:42:24 AM
The problem is not keeping religion out of politics, never has been, in-fact, that argument is rather stupid. As I'm sure everyone here knows, nowhere in the constitution or the words "The separation of church & state." The only thing mentioned is congress shall establish nor prohibit any religion.

Here's the thing, the problem is when government infiltrates the church in order to pass policy...not when religion is part of government, meaning, when religion is part of a politicians principles, that's fine. If a governing individual rules based on the convictions of his principles, this is proper, when a government official uses the church to influence policy, this is a problem...there is a big difference in-between the two.

And the idea that someone can govern without their principles, which are held by their religion or lack thereof, that idea that a person should or even can withhold his principles is beyond naive and simply stupid.

What Obama is doing here is outright wrong.

Well said. 
Title: Re: So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare
Post by: Arnold jr on September 27, 2010, 01:06:30 PM
Appreciate it. Things like this topic really can get on my nerves simply because so many enjoy twisting "what is" instead of recognizing simple point blank truth.