So much for "Separation of Church & State"; Obama asks clergy to pimp ObamaCare

[Soul Crusher]

I think its wrong regardless of who does it.  Politics should be kept out of the church or there should be a way to easily strip them of tax exempt status. 

[tu_holmes]

If anyone thinks the answer to the problem is raising taxes or the baby Jesus... Go fuck yourself.

[Straw Man]

You asked me, rhetorically, "what's the problem, now?", implying that I had an issue with Obama's asking the men of the cloth to pitch his healthcare law. I don't. In fact, you may recall that I refer to it as "Praise the Lord; and vote for me" politics in which both sides engage, during election cycles.

But, as stated earlier, why does left yelp about it, when churches and politicans get involved on certain issues (i.e. marriage amendments, abortion) but get mushmouthed when their candidates get the Holy Ghost, especially when they hit black churches?

the title of this thread ...."so much for separation of church and statet" makes it sound like you have a problem with it when Obama does it.

I have a problem when anyone does it and I don't know if your statement the the "left" is accurate.  One thing we know about Dems is that they don't have nearly the party unity that Repubs do.   Some Dems may be as you describe but many others are like me and want all churchses and religious groups to stay out of poitics

I have no idea what you mean about the Holy Ghost.  I thought that was a Cathoic thing. Do you fundies believe in that too.

[Dos Equis]

I have no problem with religion being involved with politics.  Always has been, always will be.  There is nothing in the Constitution that requires "no involvement."  

The whole "entanglement" thing is a different story, but some folks mistakenly believe the First Amendment requires government to have no involvement, mention, or relationship with churches, religious entities, religious people, etc.  That's simply not the case.  

But what the president is doing here sounds like a violation of the IRS ban on churches engaging in partisan politics (if the churches actually do what he says).  

[Soul Crusher]

I have no problem with religion being involved with politics.  Always has been, always will be.  There is nothing in the Constitution that requires "no involvement."  

The whole "entanglement" thing is a different story, but some folks mistakenly believe the First Amendment requires government to have no involvement, mention, or relationship with churches, religious entities, religious people, etc.  That's simply not the case.  

But what the president is doing here sounds like a violation of the IRS ban on churches engaging in partisan politics (if the churches actually do what he says).  

One of the reasons I left the catholic church years ago and never went back was their pushing "social justice" crap, amnesty for illegals, and other such nonsense. 

It was very off putting.   

[Dos Equis]

One of the reasons I left the catholic church years ago and never went back was their pushing "social justice" crap, amnesty for illegals, and other such nonsense. 

It was very off putting.   

That kind of stuff doesn't bother me.  I do think churches and "religious" people have just as much right to participate in the political process as anyone else. 

[MCWAY]

the title of this thread ...."so much for separation of church and statet" makes it sound like you have a problem with it when Obama does it.

When have you ever heard me criticize any politician, regardless of political stripe, for doing the "Praise the Lord; and vote for me" thing? Or, when have you heard me cite "Separation of Church and State" on any issue?

My problem is the left's SCREAMING about conservative politicians and their involvement with churches on some issues (marriage, abortion, stem cell research), while they get mushmouthed about liberal politicians' involvement churches about other issues (ObamaCare, amnesty, redistribution of wealth).

I have a problem when anyone does it and I don't know if your statement the the "left" is accurate.  One thing we know about Dems is that they don't have nearly the party unity that Repubs do.   Some Dems may be as you describe but many others are like me and want all churchses and religious groups to stay out of poitics

Churches and religious groups should do no such thing. As MLK said, the church is neither the master nor the slave of the state. It should be its conscience. Politics is, of course, about policy, what is right and what is wrong. People's religious beliefs shape that; so church members and groups have a role in the process. It's the degree of that role that's the source of controversy.

I have no idea what you mean about the Holy Ghost.  I thought that was a Cathoic thing. Do you fundies believe in that too.

The Holy Ghost was around, long before there ever was a Catholic church. So, it's hardly just a Catholic thing.

[Straw Man]

That kind of stuff doesn't bother me.  I do think churches and "religious" people have just as much right to participate in the political process as anyone else. 

churches as an entity have no right to get involved in the political process (not that it doesn't happen everday of course).

individual members, like any other citizen can do whatever political activism they want on their own.   

http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=96099,00.html

Exemption Requirements - Section 501(c)(3) Organizations
 
To be tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, an organization must be organized and operated exclusively for exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3), and none of its earnings may inure to any private shareholder or individual. In addition, it may not be an action organization, i.e., it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates.

Organizations described in section 501(c)(3) are commonly referred to as charitable organizations. Organizations described in section 501(c)(3), other than testing for public safety organizations, are eligible to receive tax-deductible contributions in accordance with Code section 170.

The organization must not be organized or operated for the benefit of private interests, and no part of a section 501(c)(3) organization's net earnings may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual. If the organization engages in an excess benefit transaction with a person having substantial influence over the organization, an excise tax may be imposed on the person and any organization managers agreeing to the transaction.

Section 501(c)(3) organizations are restricted in how much political and legislative (lobbying) activities they may conduct. For a detailed discussion, see Political and Lobbying Activities. For more information about lobbying activities by charities, see the article Lobbying Issues; for more information about political activities of charities, see the FY-2002 CPE topic Election Year Issues.

Additional Information

Application Process Step by Step:  Questions and answers that will help an organization determine if it is eligible to apply for recognition of exemption from federal income taxation under IRC section 501(a) and, if so, how to proceed.
 
 

[Soul Crusher]

churches as an entity have no right to get involved in the political process (not that it doesn't happen everday of course).

individual members, like any other citizen can do whatever political activism they want on their own.   

http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=96099,00.html

Exemption Requirements - Section 501(c)(3) Organizations
 
To be tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, an organization must be organized and operated exclusively for exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3), and none of its earnings may inure to any private shareholder or individual. In addition, it may not be an action organization, i.e., it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates.

Organizations described in section 501(c)(3) are commonly referred to as charitable organizations. Organizations described in section 501(c)(3), other than testing for public safety organizations, are eligible to receive tax-deductible contributions in accordance with Code section 170.

The organization must not be organized or operated for the benefit of private interests, and no part of a section 501(c)(3) organization's net earnings may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual. If the organization engages in an excess benefit transaction with a person having substantial influence over the organization, an excise tax may be imposed on the person and any organization managers agreeing to the transaction.

Section 501(c)(3) organizations are restricted in how much political and legislative (lobbying) activities they may conduct. For a detailed discussion, see Political and Lobbying Activities. For more information about lobbying activities by charities, see the article Lobbying Issues; for more information about political activities of charities, see the FY-2002 CPE topic Election Year Issues.

Additional Information

Application Process Step by Step:  Questions and answers that will help an organization determine if it is eligible to apply for recognition of exemption from federal income taxation under IRC section 501(a) and, if so, how to proceed.
 
 

I agree 100%.  If they want to get involved in politics, they should lose their tax exempt status. 

[tonymctones]

The complainers were liberal like yourself. Do you understand your hypocrisy or is that too complicated for you? The Left condemns the religious right for voicing their concerns when it comes to gay marriage, abortion, etc by proclaiming seperation of church and state. So why aren't you and the rest of the Obama supporters up in arms with this current situation?

Don't bother answering. You don't have any defense for it. Keep walking.

LMFAO hahahah you guys remember when i said that straw man likes to make up the definitions of words to suit him...well ask what his definition of hypocrisey is...its a fuking hoot man....

go ahead straw lets hear it...

[Soul Crusher]

Not to disrupt the thread - but is Hugo going to move this due to religious content?   

[Straw Man]

LMFAO hahahah you guys remember when i said that straw man likes to make up the definitions of words to suit him...well ask what his definition of hypocrisey is...its a fuking hoot man....

go ahead straw lets hear it...

go back and read my response to Dario73 and see if you can figure it out

[MCWAY]

churches as an entity have no right to get involved in the political process (not that it doesn't happen everday of course).

individual members, like any other citizen can do whatever political activism they want on their own.   

http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=96099,00.html

Exemption Requirements - Section 501(c)(3) Organizations
 
To be tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, an organization must be organized and operated exclusively for exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3), and none of its earnings may inure to any private shareholder or individual. In addition, it may not be an action organization, i.e., it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates.

Organizations described in section 501(c)(3) are commonly referred to as charitable organizations. Organizations described in section 501(c)(3), other than testing for public safety organizations, are eligible to receive tax-deductible contributions in accordance with Code section 170.

The organization must not be organized or operated for the benefit of private interests, and no part of a section 501(c)(3) organization's net earnings may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual. If the organization engages in an excess benefit transaction with a person having substantial influence over the organization, an excise tax may be imposed on the person and any organization managers agreeing to the transaction.

Section 501(c)(3) organizations are restricted in how much political and legislative (lobbying) activities they may conduct. For a detailed discussion, see Political and Lobbying Activities. For more information about lobbying activities by charities, see the article Lobbying Issues; for more information about political activities of charities, see the FY-2002 CPE topic Election Year Issues.

Additional Information

Application Process Step by Step:  Questions and answers that will help an organization determine if it is eligible to apply for recognition of exemption from federal income taxation under IRC section 501(a) and, if so, how to proceed.
 
 

Key word...SUBSTANTIAL!

In other words, that should NOT be its primary mission, which it is NOT as far as churches are concerned. The law DOES NOT SAY, that churches can't get involved in such issues whatsoever.

[MCWAY]

Not to disrupt the thread - but is Hugo going to move this due to religious content?   

Why? This is a political issue. Obama's trying to get support for this debacle of his. It just so happens that, likely out of desperation, he's hititng the pews of churches.

[Straw Man]

Key word...SUBSTANTIAL!

In other words, that should NOT be its primary mission, which it is NOT as far as churches are concerned. The law DOES NOT SAY, that churches can't get involved in such issues whatsoever.

they can talk about issues such as abortion, etc... but they can't endorse a candidate or tell their congregation that they can't vote for someone

may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates.


how many nutty preacher got in front of their church and told them they could not vote for Obama or Kerry because of their views on abortion or homosexual rights or that they had to vote for Bush because of any number of reasons.

[tonymctones]

go back and read my response to Dario73 and see if you can figure it out

find a dictionary and look up hypocrite and see if you can 

[Dos Equis]

churches as an entity have no right to get involved in the political process (not that it doesn't happen everday of course).

individual members, like any other citizen can do whatever political activism they want on their own.   

http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=96099,00.html

Exemption Requirements - Section 501(c)(3) Organizations
 
To be tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, an organization must be organized and operated exclusively for exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3), and none of its earnings may inure to any private shareholder or individual. In addition, it may not be an action organization, i.e., it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates.

Organizations described in section 501(c)(3) are commonly referred to as charitable organizations. Organizations described in section 501(c)(3), other than testing for public safety organizations, are eligible to receive tax-deductible contributions in accordance with Code section 170.

The organization must not be organized or operated for the benefit of private interests, and no part of a section 501(c)(3) organization's net earnings may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual. If the organization engages in an excess benefit transaction with a person having substantial influence over the organization, an excise tax may be imposed on the person and any organization managers agreeing to the transaction.

Section 501(c)(3) organizations are restricted in how much political and legislative (lobbying) activities they may conduct. For a detailed discussion, see Political and Lobbying Activities. For more information about lobbying activities by charities, see the article Lobbying Issues; for more information about political activities of charities, see the FY-2002 CPE topic Election Year Issues.

Additional Information

Application Process Step by Step:  Questions and answers that will help an organization determine if it is eligible to apply for recognition of exemption from federal income taxation under IRC section 501(a) and, if so, how to proceed.
 
 

Now don't wet your pants because I'm actually responding to one of your posts, and this will likely be my only one for the day,   but once again you don't know what the heck you're talking about.  Did you even read what you posted?  

"In addition, it may not be an action organization, i.e., it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates."

Did you miss the word "substantial"?  In other words, they can attempt to influence legislation.  For example, the Mormon church campaigned against homosexual marriage in California, which did not interfere with their tax exempt status.  

Further, they cannot participate in "campaign activity for or against political candidates."  That doesn't mean they cannot hold rallies, campaign for or against issues (as opposed to candidates), etc.  In essence, they are precluded from engaging in partisan politics if they want to maintain their tax exempt status.  

Class dismissed.  

[Straw Man]

find a dictionary and look up hypocrite and see if you can 

do it yourself

[Dos Equis]

Key word...SUBSTANTIAL!

In other words, that should NOT be its primary mission, which it is NOT as far as churches are concerned. The law DOES NOT SAY, that churches can't get involved in such issues whatsoever.

Hey I just said that.   

[Straw Man]

Now don't wet your pants because I'm actually responding to one of your posts, and this will likely be my only one for the day,   but once again you don't know what the heck you're talking about.  Did you even read what you posted?  

"In addition, it may not be an action organization, i.e., it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates."

Did you miss the word "substantial"?  In other words, they can attempt to influence legislation.  For example, the Mormon church campaigned against homosexual marriage in California, which did not interfere with their tax exempt status.  

Further, they cannot participate in "campaign activity for or against political candidates."  That doesn't mean they cannot hold rallies, campaign for or against issues (as opposed to candidates), etc.  In essence, they are precluded from engaging in partisan politics if they want to maintain their tax exempt status.  

Class dismissed.  

Nancy - don't flatter yourself

you only resopnd when you feel safe that you might not look like a complete fool and your lack of response just shows that you're getting smarter about keeping your mouth shut

Just because a church get's involved in politics and doesn't lose their tax exempt status doesn't mean they are not violating the law.   It just means that no governemtn official has the balls to do anything about it.
  
 

[Straw Man]

Hey I just said that.   

he said it before you dipshit

I wish our country would set up standards on what "substantial" means and then start stripping churches of their tax exempt status when they violate it

I'm sure you and McWay would be all for that right

I think pouring millions of dollars into advertising, PACS, etc.. to influence legislation qualifies as substantial but i agree with you that we need to set standards for this stuff rather than letting it remain ambigous and open to violation and abuse of the law

[Dos Equis]

LOL!  The Village Idiot is all over this one.   

[Soul Crusher]

LOL!  The Village Idiot is all over this one.   

I really think religion needs to but out of these things.  Its wrong. 

[MCWAY]

I really think religion needs to but out of these things.  Its wrong. 

And miss out on Hilary Clinton's butchering "I Don't Feel Noways Tired"??

NOT A CHANCE!!!

 

[Dos Equis]

I really think religion needs to but out of these things.  Its wrong. 

Why?