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Title: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: Rami on March 10, 2011, 10:08:18 AM
:-\

A 11-Year-Old Girl In The 6th Grade Gang Raped By Up To 28 Men In Cleveland



http://abcnews.go.com/US/gang-rape-charges-18-men-sparks-racial-tensions/story?id=13095476
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: Shockwave on March 10, 2011, 10:20:03 AM
Quote
The alleged gang rape of an 11-year-old girl by at least 18 boys and young men has sparked shame and outrage in a tiny Texas town, but it has also stirred racial tensions that threaten to split the East Texas hamlet.


More Video        
Watch: Peace Corps Volunteer Describes Brutal Rape
Watch: Teen's Suicide Follows Alleged Rape
Watch: Did Teen's Alert Stop Child Rape?All of the defendants arrested are African-American and the girl is Hispanic.

The hardscrabble town of Cleveland, which is 45 miles from Houston, has fewer than 8,000 residents and since the saw mill closed the biggest employers are Wal-Mart and a nearby prison. In a town this small, everyone is a neighbor, but that small town ambience is being severely strained.

The rape allegedly occurred last November, and the list of suspects has been growing as arrests keep coming. It's not clear whether more arrests are in the works.

The suspects range in age from 14 to 26, include stars on the high school's basketball team as well as the son of a school board member.

But as the investigation drags on, the shock and indignation has been tinged with an undercurrent of racial tension.

"I feel sorry for the little girl. I feel sorry for everyone involved...the city is in turmoil," Inez Dickerson said.

Dickerson, 68, is the great-grandmother of one of the defendants in the case. Her grandson has not been publicly identified by police because he is a minor.

Dickerson remembers when her great-grandson called to tell her the crime he's accused of committing.

"When I got on the phone, he was crying. He said, 'Granny, I've been accused of something. I'm scared,'" Dickerson said. "He's pretty tore up about it."



"I'm not going to play the race card on this because my grandson and all the rest were very young men and they could have given a second thought on this," Dickerson said.

While Dickerson believes the flaring of racial tensions isn't warranted, others disagree.

Houston community activist Quanell X will host a town hall meeting this evening called "What's the real truth behind the rape allegations?"

"Every adult male that had sex with this child should go to prison, I don't care what the color is. But I do not believe black males are the only ones that had contact with this young child," said Quanell X, the leader of Houston's New Black Panther Party. "It appears to me there's only been the selective prosecution of one community, which is African American."

Quannell X said the rally has been moved from a church to a community center because, "The church received some death threats."


This thread is going to be a long one, methinks.  :-\
Its gonna be a shitstorm if it comes out that it was only black people involved..... Not something the black community needs.
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: Shockwave on March 10, 2011, 10:24:04 AM
Gang Rape Charges Raise Race Tensions in Texas Town
The village has a history of racial violence. In 1988, an African American man was arrested in Cleveland for allegedly stealing a fountain pen. The man, 30-year-old Kenneth Simpson, was allegedly beaten to death by white police officers while in prison. The officers were acquitted of murder charges and returned to work.

In addition, Cleveland is embroiled in a political scandal where three city council members are facing a recall election following complaints of corruption. All three of those city council members are African American.

More than half of the town is white, with the rest of the residents split between blacks and Hispanics.

Most of the defendants have ties to Precinct 20, the nickname for the predominantly African-American neighborhood in Cleveland. The black neighborhood is sometimes referred to as "the quarters."

Cleveland police began investigating the rape in December of last year after cell phone video showing the alleged sex attack started circulating among students at Cleveland schools, according to court documents. The video shows the girl engaged in sexual acts with several men.

The girl told authorities that the weekend after Thanksgiving she was asked if she wanted to ride around with three of the defendants in the case. The girl, described as a straight A student by those who know her, rode with the young men to a blue house with white trim, according to court documents.

As the night unfolded, numerous men came to the house and later an abandoned trailer to have sex with the girl, according to court documents.

The video surfaced because some of the girl's attackers used their cell phones to take photographs and to film the assaults.

The girl, who has not been identified because she is a minor and the alleged victim of a sex crime, said that she was told by the men that they "would have some girls 'beat her up' or she would not be taken back to her residence" if she didn't have sex with them, according to court documents.
\

When a relative of one of the defendants was heard returning to the blue house, the group hurriedly moved to an abandoned trailer. The girl left behind her bra and panties, according to the court documents.

The girl has been removed from the custody of her parents.
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: theonlyone on March 10, 2011, 10:27:35 AM
 BlackMerica!
(http://www.litox.ru/fotos/news/6b288b06.jpg)
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: makaveli25 on March 10, 2011, 10:30:03 AM
George Bush or Tea parties fault. Honestly though you could here this story and know right away it had to be a bunch of .......
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: Vince G, CSN MFT on March 10, 2011, 10:33:29 AM
:-\

A 11-Year-Old Girl In The 6th Grade Gang Raped By Up To 28 Men In Cleveland



http://abcnews.go.com/US/gang-rape-charges-18-men-sparks-racial-tensions/story?id=13095476


This would be one of times where if a lynchmob went to go hang any of these people.  I would simply get in my car and go watch a movie.  Bunch of fucking scum 
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: ManBearPig... on March 10, 2011, 10:45:55 AM
eye for an eye would be appropriate in this case.
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: Dr Dutch on March 10, 2011, 10:52:23 AM
This is really sad and sick.  :'(
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: Master Blaster on March 10, 2011, 11:02:37 AM
eye for an eye would be appropriate in this case.

are you "up" for the challenge  :-X
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: Dr Dutch on March 10, 2011, 11:06:47 AM
are you "up" for the challenge  :-X

Sick humor, man
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: mass243 on March 10, 2011, 11:08:17 AM
BlackMerica!
(http://www.litox.ru/fotos/news/6b288b06.jpg)

Hahah, great pic  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: Natural Man on March 10, 2011, 11:33:59 AM
girl was white?
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: Shockwave on March 10, 2011, 11:50:39 AM
girl was white?
Mexican I believe.
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: Shockwave on March 10, 2011, 11:52:13 AM
Quote
All of the defendants arrested are African-American and the girl is Hispanic
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: TrapsMcLats on March 10, 2011, 12:06:40 PM
Blacks and latinos commit acts of revenge in amazing ways.  Their great revenge for centuries of abuse from the white, landed gentry is to be a massive burden on society. Mission accomplished.
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: big L dawg on March 10, 2011, 12:20:00 PM
kill um all...
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: Parker on March 10, 2011, 12:25:28 PM
Throw them all the in jail---Jamal will take care of them, and if not, then Daniel from the Aryan Brotherhood will.


But, let me get this straight, she was ask if she wanted to ride around with 3 of  them? Something ain't right...

It's like this Girl in Baltimore had claimed she was raped by several men in a skating rink, underneath a stairwell---it apparently came out that it was consensual...nevertheles s she was underage...
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: makaveli25 on March 10, 2011, 12:34:07 PM
What I don't understand about the black community Is why know one ever steps in and says gee maybe this is wrong. There was 28 of the cocksuckers there. At least a few of them were in there late 20's. What the hell were they doing hanging out with 14 year olds. What a burden to society. Every time you turn on the tv they are killing raping or mugging someone. I can't understand why they can't act like civilized human beings. The ghettos are cursed!
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: thelamefalsehood on March 10, 2011, 12:42:43 PM
What I don't understand about the black community Is why know one ever steps in and says gee maybe this is wrong. There was 28 of the cocksuckers there. At least a few of them were in there late 20's. What the hell were they doing hanging out with 14 year olds. What a burden to society. Every time you turn on the tv they are killing raping or mugging someone. I can't understand why they can't act like civilized human beings. The ghettos are cursed!


Bill Cosby did years ago, basically saying most of black people problems are of their own making and he has been chastised ever since by many blacks.
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: makaveli25 on March 10, 2011, 12:45:30 PM
I work with black people. A lot of the older black woman are very friendly have good morals are god fearing good people. The younger poor generation are lost though. They don't know how to act human.
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: Parker on March 10, 2011, 12:45:54 PM
What I don't understand about the black community Is why know one ever steps in and says gee maybe this is wrong. There was 28 of the cocksuckers there. At least a few of them were in there late 20's. What the hell were they doing hanging out with 14 year olds. What a burden to society. Every time you turn on the tv they are killing raping or mugging someone. I can't understand why they can't act like civilized human beings. The ghettos are cursed!
That dude Quarnell said it was wrong and that they need to go to prison...he also said that he doesn't believe that they were the only ones to have contact with them. All we know is from what is written, not the full investigation, or trial.

Charging documents can be written up in a way that makes it look like you did something and were completely guilty...then the newspapers report it, and next then you know, people have made their minds up about you.
This could have been a gang initiation, or just a train run on her---both are completely wrong. What is telling is how the victim was chosen---she willing went with 3 of them who were way older than her, and she is 11 yrs old. Now, in our minds we still think 11 yr old girls play with dolls, but I knew of one who was getting into adult nightclubs. Was this victim fast for her age and hung out with older dudes? Or was she a naive girl who got in over her head? Did she agree to have sex with one or two, and then it was more than she thought (a train)? What really is the full story?
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: mass243 on March 10, 2011, 12:49:02 PM
Valid points there, Parker-son
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: makaveli25 on March 10, 2011, 12:49:12 PM
That dude Quarnell said it was wrong and that they need to go to prison...he also said that he doesn't believe that they were the only ones to have contact with them. All we know is from what is written, not the full investigation, or trial.

Charging documents can be written up in a way that makes it look like you did something and were completely guilty...then the newspapers report it, and next then you know, people have made their minds up about you.
This could have been a gang initiation, or just a train run on her---both are completely wrong. What is telling is how the victim was chosen---she willing went with 3 of them who were way older than her, and she is 11 yrs old. Now, in our minds we still think 11 yr old girls play with dolls, but I knew of one who was getting into adult nightclubs. Was this victim fast for her age and hung out with older dudes? Or was she a naive girl who got in over her head? Did she agree to have sex with one or two, and then it was more than she thought (a train)? What really is the full story?

Don't apologize for that bullshit. Who the hell does shit like that. It's bullshit people are getting fed up. Your making an excuse. The girl was how old 11? Even if they didn't do exactly what the report says they should all be put to death for even being slightly involved with something like that.
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: Parker on March 10, 2011, 01:00:12 PM
Don't apologize for that bullshit. Who the hell does shit like that. It's bullshit people are getting fed up. Your making an excuse. The girl was how old 11? Even if they didn't do exactly what the report says they should all be put to death for even being slightly involved with something like that.
Nobody is apologizing...you fail to look at things objectively---you wouldn't make too good of a prosecutor or defense attorney. Look at what is presented, look at them as stupid dumfucks who committed a evil act.

Had a case one time, where the dude (black dude from Cape Verde Islands) called police because his daughter was running away. Come to find out, he was raping her for yrs. His 2nd wife left him for Texas, and his first wife went to Portugal. Which left a man, who couldn't related to culture at large so, he started raping his daugther--his only connection. I was disgusted...you see the logic within his thinking, but still disgusted. Rapig your own daugther.
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: makaveli25 on March 10, 2011, 01:18:35 PM
More important educated black people need to step up and start holding these people accountible for all the bullshit. Same with the muslims. Muslim extremeists are causing problems in over 40 countries right now. They have commited a crazy amount of terroist attacks compared to any other religion. How are people not suppose to be Islamaphobes? How are people not suppose to be racists when you can't walk down a fucking road on the wrong side of town without getting shot or stabbed? Why dont some of these big name athletes and actors start caring about there own communities. Its messed up.
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: Marty Champions on March 10, 2011, 01:32:45 PM
i find alot of attention/agression between me and african americans at the grocery store  :'( :-* :(
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: Parker on March 10, 2011, 01:39:25 PM
More important educated black people need to step up and start holding these people accountible for all the bullshit. Same with the muslims. Muslim extremeists are causing problems in over 40 countries right now. They have commited a crazy amount of terroist attacks compared to any other religion. How are people not suppose to be Islamaphobes? How are people not suppose to be racists when you can't walk down a fucking road on the wrong side of town without getting shot or stabbed? Why dont some of these big name athletes and actors start caring about there own communities. Its messed up.
Jesse and Al, who control the voice of the black church, don't condemn these people---and it's taboo to go against the black church...but more and more black folk are speaking out...
The athletes? Well, they are in their own little world, and many believe that they are above the law, or above talking about such acts---or like Carmello Anthony want you to "Stop Snitching".
I don't think you remember back when when people were getting killed for their Jordans. Jordan did say something, but it was a PR fiasco, for him, Spike Lee, and Nike. There were articles written in ESPN about it.
Also, this goes along with the definition that has been drawn up for black males in America---hand in hand.
In the early 20th century, black men were defined as cowards, yella, didn't want to fight, docile, weak minded, and generally non-violent individuals...they made poor fighters (boxers). Then of course Jack Johnson proved them wrong...by the late 60's early 70s, when blacks from the south had moved into the inner city projects, there was a change---by the mid 70s, due to black on black crime, black males were seen and determined as violent, fighters (due to the rise of black Hwt boxers), bad tempered, thieves, etc. Now, due to many only seeing this, and now it being talked about in music, it's permeated the culture---to be "hood", but this image was thrust upon them...them not dictating who they want to be, but letting others do that (thus, we get to what I was telling Blackflag, but he didn't get it)

Now, what needs to be done, is a new group that says "fuck this shit, because y'all are killing the opportunities for yourselves and others, and it's time you define who you are as a black male and not let stereotypes that others have made for you to follow to define yourself."
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: benchmstr on March 10, 2011, 01:41:04 PM
bwahahaha at Quanell X...this guy has the greatest racket in Texas going....the way his system works is pure genius..

bench
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: Parker on March 10, 2011, 01:45:09 PM
bwahahaha at Quanell X...this guy has the greatest racket in Texas going....the way his system works is pure genius..

bench
Explain, is he one of those "black leaders" who play both sides of the fence, and prolly deal a lot with the criminal element.
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: Andy Griffin on March 10, 2011, 01:46:19 PM
bwahahaha at Quanell X...this guy has the greatest racket in Texas going....the way his system works is pure genius..

bench

His name sounds like some product advertised in Men's Health:

Huge lean muscle gains in days, not weeks.  Available at GNC.  
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: benchmstr on March 10, 2011, 01:47:36 PM
Explain, is he one of those "black leaders" who play both sides of the fence, and prolly deal a lot with the criminal element.
thats all he does...i will explain it through PM..

bench
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: Parker on March 10, 2011, 01:49:31 PM
His name sounds like some product advertised in Men's Health:

Huge lean muscle gains in days, not weeks.  Available at GNC.  
"Quanell X stands for Quantity Cell Xtreme...Extreme muscle gains and density, like you've been hit with Gamma Rays!"
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: Andy Griffin on March 10, 2011, 01:53:44 PM
"Quanell X stands for Quantity Cell Xtreme...Extreme muscle gains and density, like you've been it with Gamma Rays!"

Now you're talking...I've got to get to GNC.
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: lesaucer on March 10, 2011, 02:30:55 PM
throw them all in a fire
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: Parker on March 10, 2011, 02:45:00 PM
throw them all in a fire
"We Didn't Start The Fire"
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: The Abdominal Snoman on March 10, 2011, 02:45:57 PM

Bill Cosby did years ago, basically saying most of black people problems are of their own making and he has been chastised ever since by many blacks.

That's because the black community knows that Bill Cosby was being a hypocrite and trying to use reverse psychology on his own people. He himself couldn't keep his dick in his pants while married. Cosby is at the top of the food chain in the black community but also completely under Illuminati control. Same as Oprah. Cosby knows that the poor neighborhoods of America are being crop dusted with poison and toxoplasma. But he doesn't seem to want to bring that up.
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: Parker on March 10, 2011, 02:52:51 PM
That's because the black community knows that Bill Cosby was being a hypocrite and trying to use reverse psychology on his own people. He himself couldn't keep his dick in his pants while married. Cosby is at the top of the food chain in the black community but also completely under Illuminati control. Same as Oprah. Cosby knows that the poor neighborhoods of America are being crop dusted with poison and toxoplasma. But he doesn't seem to want to bring that up.
Whatever came of those "sexual allegations"?

Bill still makes speeches and is guest speaker on the same subject.
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: 240 is Back on March 10, 2011, 02:59:32 PM
sickkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: The Abdominal Snoman on March 10, 2011, 03:08:20 PM
Whatever came of those "sexual allegations"?

Bill still makes speeches and is guest speaker on the same subject.

Those sexual allegations were squashed. But he himself admitted to having a illegitimate child out of wedlock. Something his self righteous elitist ass speaks against. He's not helping the black community by looking down on them.
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: Parker on March 10, 2011, 03:20:07 PM
Those sexual allegations were squashed. But he himself admitted to having a illegitimate child out of wedlock. Something his self righteous elitist ass speaks against. He's not helping the black community by looking down on them.
He's not looking down on them---he is telling them like it is. Parenting, drugs, criminal activity, lack of emphasis on education are the number one issues that need to be talked about in our community. I've listened to his speeches andhe is dead on, the fact is, black "leaders" who are part of the black church want to look for someone to blame---they still want this to be 1968, well it ain't.

Are you talking about that daughter who was born in the 70s...I remember that.
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: The Abdominal Snoman on March 10, 2011, 03:46:46 PM
He's not looking down on them---he is telling them like it is. Parenting, drugs, criminal activity, lack of emphasis on education are the number one issues that need to be talked about in our community. I've listened to his speeches andhe is dead on, the fact is, black "leaders" who are part of the black church want to look for someone to blame---they still want this to be 1968, well it ain't.

Are you talking about that daughter who was born in the 70s...I remember that.

I hear what your saying but I personally can't relate to people of power who follow the "do as I say, not as I do approach" . Its hypocritical. Bill is just another Jesse Jackson.
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: Parker on March 10, 2011, 03:52:31 PM
I hear what your saying but I personally can't relate to people of power who follow the "do as I say, not as I do approach" . Its hypocritical. Bill is just another Jesse Jackson.
But, people like Jesse, because he espouses the "play victim", I have Bill Cosby's book "Come On People!: On The path from Victims to Victors"

it's a good read.
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: big L dawg on March 10, 2011, 04:20:08 PM
there should be no trial no judge no jury....lynch mob...
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: benchmstr on March 10, 2011, 04:22:03 PM
there should be no trial no judge no jury....lynch mob...
i firmly believe that some people are born only to be a example to others...these suspects sound like they meet that criteria...

bench
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: big L dawg on March 10, 2011, 04:24:13 PM
i firmly believe that some people are born only to be a example to others...these suspects sound like they meet that criteria...

bench

exactly...
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: TacoBell on March 10, 2011, 04:33:17 PM
Whatta whore!
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: Firemuscle on March 10, 2011, 04:59:27 PM
 We should do that "eye for an eye" shit that the filthy Saudis love.

 Bring a bunch of gimps and deformed freaks in to gang rape all these pieces of shit.

 Don't worry though. When these guys go to prison they are gonna get it bad for sure. Everyone is prison is gonna want to fuck these guys up.
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: benchmstr on March 10, 2011, 05:01:32 PM
We should do that "eye for an eye" shit that the filthy Saudis love.

 Bring a bunch of gimps and deformed freaks in to gang rape all these pieces of shit.

 Don't worry though. When these guys go to prison they are gonna get it bad for sure. Everyone is prison is gonna want to fuck these guys up.
or inject a bunch of spider monkeys with PCP and give them knives...and make them attack those guys...

bench
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: chaos on March 10, 2011, 06:54:47 PM
Nobody is apologizing...you fail to look at things objectively---

Bullshit...........no matter why she was there or what she agreed to, every one of them deserves to die.

No mercy, every last one, dead.
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: Shockwave on March 10, 2011, 06:57:59 PM
Bullshit...........no matter why she was there or what she agreed to, every one of them deserves to die.

No mercy, every last one, dead.
x22.465234


That shit wasnt consentual.
No way an 11 year old knew what was ahead of her when 3 guys convinced her to get in their car, no fucking way.
Even if she knew what the 3 wanted, there was NO way she knew she was gonna get fucked by 20 guys, or whatever the fuck it was.
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: wes on March 11, 2011, 12:33:26 AM
Even if she planned on fucking over 20 guys,11 years old is not a good age for making the correct decisions............... ..and these guys knew what time it was.


Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: claymore on March 11, 2011, 12:38:00 AM
kill um all...

This
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: HTexan on March 11, 2011, 07:46:12 AM
This
x3
and it happen here in texas. the chair ftw.
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: Parker on March 11, 2011, 08:01:50 AM
Even if she planned on fucking over 20 guys,11 years old is not a good age for making the correct decisions............... ..and these guys knew what time it was.



Many of the women who are 25+ started sucking cock at that age. That is the age of 6th grade...
Not saying she was fast, cause nobody on here knows...but the mofos should be put under the jail.
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: Board_SHERIF on March 11, 2011, 02:11:29 PM
public hanging at night  ;)
Title: Re: Unbelievable! How to bring justice in a case like this?
Post by: chaos on March 11, 2011, 06:45:56 PM
Not saying she was fast, cause nobody on here knows...

Doesn't matter how "fast" she was, she's 11........every fucking one of them should die. Slow, painful deaths.