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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Soul Crusher on March 28, 2011, 11:49:50 AM
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;)
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lol. Gotta hand it to Trump. He knows how to make waves.
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obviously a forgery
where's the long form
and I don't care if there is no long form
I still demand to see it
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obviously a forgery
where's the long form
and I don't care if there is no long form
I still demand to see it
At least it is signed by someone and lists the hospital of birth.
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At least it is signed by someone and lists the hospital of birth.
meaningless
easily faked
where's the long form
has he released his school records yet?
I need to know what grade he got in geometry in the tenth grade before I can even consider voting for him
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meaningless
easily faked
where's the long form
has he released his school records yet?
I need to know what grade he got in geometry in the tenth grade before I can even consider voting for him
just wait straw- this is Donalds' way of calling out the messiah.
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just wait straw- this is Donalds' way of calling out the messiah.
if it is that teh Donald is a dumbass
of all the legitimate and importnant topics and distinctions to be made between any Republican policy position vs Obama this is all he can think of?
pathetic
all he's doing is leaving himself vulnerable for ridicule by other Republican candidates
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if it is that teh Donald is a dumbass
of all the legitimate and importnant topics and distinctions to be made between any Republican policy position vs Obama this is all he can think of?
pathetic
all he's doing is leaving himself vulnerable for ridicule by other Republican candidates
Trump is already the fav of FR almost overnight. he has also been talkig about the messiahs' WWTTFF policies for months now.
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Trump is already the fav of FR almost overnight. he has also been talkig about the messiahs' WWTTFF policies for months now.
glad to hear it
I hope he talks about Obama's BC all the time
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glad to hear it
I hope he talks about Obama's BC all the time
Well, we know obama certainly does not want to talk about, lets see:
Jobs
Health Care
Economy
Energy
Inflation
Wars
etc etc.
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Well, we know obama certainly does not want to talk about, lets see:
Jobs
Health Care
Economy
Energy
Inflation
Wars
etc etc.
or back in reality that is exactly what he will be talking about while Donald is talking about his BC
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or back in reality that is exactly what he will be talking about while Donald is talking about his BC
LLLMMMAAAOOO - CNN reported esterday that your messiah has a 60% dissapproval on his handling of the economy.
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Trump is already the fav of FR almost overnight. he has also been talkig about the messiahs' WWTTFF policies for months now.
hahahhahahahah whats that tell you about the candidates ;D
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hahahhahahahah whats that tell you about the candidates ;D
That they stink. Have I said otherwise? Christie/Trump/Paul/Bachmann/Cain are who I like .
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LLLMMMAAAOOO - CNN reported esterday that your messiah has a 60% dissapproval on his handling of the economy.
so I guess because of that you think Obama won't discuss the economy and instead will spend his time talking about his BC ?
jesus christ man
wtf is wrong with you
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The bama cant discuss his BC sine one does not exist in HI. He was likely born in moombasa or Washington State and the more he discussed this topic, the sooner his whole lie comes unraveled. Even mobacaa said he was born in Kenya.
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The bama cant discuss his BC sine one does not exist in HI. He was likely born in moombasa or Washington State and the more he discussed this topic, the sooner his whole lie comes unraveled. Even mobacaa said he was born in Kenya.
I think you should quit filing mechanics liens and that other low level mundane shit you waste your time on and start a Republican consulting firm
Seriously man, the Repubs need more smart guys like you
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I think you should quit filing mechanics liens and that other low level mundane shit you waste your time on and start a Republian consulting firm
Seriously man, the Repubs need more smart guys like you
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Donald Trump
born June 14, 1946 in Queens, New York, NY (Meets the Jus Soli Requirement)
Parents were
Frederick Christ Trump, born October 11, 1905 in Queens, NY, died June 1999 in Queens, NY
Mary Ann MacLeod, born May 10, 1912 in SCOTLAND, died August 7, 2000 in Queens, NY. Arrived in US October 5, 1935. Married January 1936. Naturalized as a US Citizen March 10, 1942.
Both parents were US Citizens at the time of his birth (Meets the Jus Sanguinis Requirement)
Donald Trump is a NATURAL BORN CITIZEN unlike Comrade Barry Soetoro aka Barack Hussein Obama.
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Donald Trump: I've got my birth certificate, where President Barack Obama's ?
Politico ^ | March 28, 2011 | ANDY BARR
Donald Trump now sees himself as something of a patron saint for the birthers – and he's even released his own birth certificate as he steps up criticism of the president.
Continue Reading Seeking to pump more energy into the birther movement and quirky chase for the White House, Trump on Monday provided a copy of his birth certificate to the conservative website Newsmax – which has played a leading role in trumpeting birther mythology.
And in an interview on Fox News, Trump cast himself as something akin to the rebel leader of the birther movement.
“Now, this guy either has a birth certificate or he doesn’t,” Trump said. “And I didn't think this was such a big deal, but I will tell you, it’s turning out to be a very big deal because people now are calling me from all over saying, please don't give up on this issue."
(Excerpt) Read more at politico.com ...
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what does this mean to you?
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It means like his grand mother said - his home country is Kenya. The grandmother said she witnessed his live birth in moombasa.
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http://www.jamaicahospital.org/index.php
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It means like his grand mother said - his home country is Kenya. The grandmother said she witnessed his live birth in moombasa.
LoL - of course she did.
You've got a quote right
Seriously though man, is the media aware of this video? You should stop whatever you're doing and get this video to Fox News immediately. Keep in mind that Obama's communist handlers regularly monitor this site (I know this for a fact because a guy told me that someone told him it was true) so be sure to watch your back and maybe wear a disguise or something. If they won't let you into the Fox News studios be sure to tell them you're an attorney and you have proof
Be careful man and good luck. I'll be watching for it on the news tonight
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Trump is already the fav of FR almost overnight.
as was palin.
great fccking judgment. :(
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as was palin.
great fccking judgment. :(
;D
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At least it is signed by someone and lists the hospital of birth.
::)
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::)
You are completely clueless on the birther issue. Obama is DOA on this issue and everyone knows it. The more that comes out the worse it looks for bama on this.
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You are completely clueless on the birther issue. Obama is DOA on this issue and everyone knows it. The more that comes out the worse it looks for bama on this.
this is THE primary issue facing our country right now
following close in second place is tax cuts for fetuses
everyone knows it
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Lets see Straw:
Bama - threatening to close the govt over a measily 60 billion in cuts.
Bama refuses to even discuss the recommendations of his own deficit reductio panel
Inflation soaring.
Energy skyrocketing like bama said he wants.
UE terrible as stagnant and/or getting worse.
Housing mired in a depression.
Bama starting wars anywhere he can in order to help Al Quada and the MB
Banks in as bad a shape as ever.
Despite ObamaCare, or because of it to be more accurate, premiums still skyrocketing and getting worse.
Frank Dodd is an awful joke.
GE, GS, and BOA - all of Obama's buddies BTW, paid ZERO taxes last year. Immelt and the WH jobs panel anyone? LOL.
You think Bama wants to discuss these? LMFAO.
bama probably prays he has to talk about his BC after the horrible and disgusting job he has done so far.
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You are completely clueless on the birther issue. Obama is DOA on this issue and everyone knows it. The more that comes out the worse it looks for bama on this.
I thought the primary issue was the NCAA brackets? Now its this? get your story straight BIRTHER. :D
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I thought the primary issue was the NCAA brackets? Now its this? get your story straight BIRTHER. :D
I am a full blown birther, i make no apologies for that. The more i learn bout obama, the more birther I become.
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33 what is the theory from start to finish? From what I gather, the CT is:
1. He was born in Kenya.
2. His parents placed a fake announcement of his birth in a Hawaii newspaper announcing his birth.
3. He was secretly raised in Kenya for a few years.
4. He is secretly moved to Hawaii and his parents pretend like he was in Hawaii all along.
Assuming I'm tracking, how did he become a citizen after he moved here?
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33 what is the theory from start to finish? From what I gather, the CT is:
1. He was born in Kenya.
2. His parents placed a fake announcement of his birth in a Hawaii newspaper announcing his birth.
3. He was secretly raised in Kenya for a few years.
4. He is secretly moved to Hawaii and his parents pretend like he was in Hawaii all along.
Assuming I'm tracking, how did he become a citizen after he moved here?
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I thought the primary issue was the NCAA brackets? Now its this? get your story straight BIRTHER. :D
Interesting, there are more democrat 9/11 CT'ers than repubs too.
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Interesting, there are more democrat 9/11 CT'ers than repubs too.
Without the hospital records or long form BC , there are may plausible theories on this. Couple that with the fact that Obama has sealed EVERYTHING from public viewing altogether from his birth to his state senate records, it leads many to ask questions that should be answered.
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Without the hospital records or long form BC , there are may plausible theories on this. Couple that with the fact that Obama has sealed EVERYTHING from public viewing altogether from his birth to his state senate records, it leads many to ask questions that should be answered.
If you are a "birther", you are making accusations based on inconclusive evidence. You are not just asking questions, you have already made up your minds.
BTW, TRump running is joke. What a tool.
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There so far is NO PROOF that obama was born in this country other than the forgery they put up in 2007 on the website using a fake SS number.
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There so far is NO PROOF that obama was born in this country other than the forgery they put up in 2007 on the website using a fake SS number.
Is there proof that he isn't?
I wonder how much this will play into the election 2012.
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There so far is NO PROOF that obama was born in this country other than the forgery they put up in 2007 on the website using a fake SS number.
That's an overstatement. The newspaper announcement and COLB are proof. May not be conclusive, but it's something.
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Without the hospital records or long form BC , there are may plausible theories on this. Couple that with the fact that Obama has sealed EVERYTHING from public viewing altogether from his birth to his state senate records, it leads many to ask questions that should be answered.
there is no long or short form
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Lets see Straw:
Bama - threatening to close the govt over a measily 60 billion in cuts.
Bama refuses to even discuss the recommendations of his own deficit reductio panel
Inflation soaring.
Energy skyrocketing like bama said he wants.
UE terrible as stagnant and/or getting worse.
Housing mired in a depression.
Bama starting wars anywhere he can in order to help Al Quada and the MB
Banks in as bad a shape as ever.
Despite ObamaCare, or because of it to be more accurate, premiums still skyrocketing and getting worse.
Frank Dodd is an awful joke.
GE, GS, and BOA - all of Obama's buddies BTW, paid ZERO taxes last year. Immelt and the WH jobs panel anyone? LOL.
You think Bama wants to discuss these? LMFAO.
bama probably prays he has to talk about his BC after the horrible and disgusting job he has done so far.
ignoring the validity of any of your statements an even better question would be why did Trump ignore these issues to make the BC his topic ?
Anwwer is because he is a gimmick and he knows it so he might as well be the champion of the gimmick issue
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That's an overstatement. The newspaper announcement and COLB are proof. May not be conclusive, but it's something.
birth announcement was planted by time traveling communists from China
everyone knows that
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That's an overstatement. The newspaper announcement and COLB are proof. May not be conclusive, but it's something.
The COLB is not proof since it contains a fake SS number and is an obvious fake.
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YouTube spamming activate.....form of Birther.
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Where is the Jamaica Hospital? Jamaica?
If so, then Trump can't be president... He wasn't born in the US. Right?
There is a Jamaica, NY... Would Trump have been born there?
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YouTube spamming activate.....form of Birther.
lol. :D
33 if you had to pick one clip that best summarizes this CT, which one would it be?
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YouTube spamming activate.....form of Birther.
The videos I am showing show how utterly bullshit the COLB is. If you want to stay in the dark on this issue, thats your perogative.
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Where is the Jamaica Hospital? Jamaica?
If so, then Trump can't be president... He wasn't born in the US. Right?
There is a Jamaica, NY... Would Trump have been born there?
Jamaica is n Queens. I pass it every time I go JFK AP.
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lol. :D
33 if you had to pick one clip that best summarizes this CT, which one would it be?
Which part? the NBC part, the COLB forgery?, the fake SS numbers Obama uses?, which part?
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The ridiculous thing is that Obama could put an end to all this by just showing his BC. He's bringing this on himself by letting it go. This only adds to the speculation that he's hiding something.
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Which part? the NBC part, the COLB forgery?, the fake SS numbers Obama uses?, which part?
Any clip that summarizes all of it. I'm willing to watch or listen to one, but you posted several.
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The ridiculous thing is that Obama could put an end to all this by just showing his BC. He's bringing this on himself by letting it go. This only adds to the speculation that he's hiding something.
he has
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Any clip that summarizes all of it. I'm willing to watch or listen to one, but you posted several.
Poblem is that the whole thing is nw really blowng up and not limited to only the BC - but i'll deal with the colb first. its a forgery.
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The videos I am showing show how utterly bullshit the COLB is. If you want to stay in the dark on this issue, thats your perogative.
Lol. You sound like such a CT'er with those arguments.
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he has
You mean the COLB? It looks so forged that showing it did him more harm than good. Surely he has another BC?
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Lol. You sound like such a CT'er with those arguments.
Sorry ozmo - the people attacking the birthers on this really dont realize how bullshit the whole bama narrative is in this whole thing.
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Ahhhh good old Hawaii.
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Sorry ozmo - the people attacking the birthers on this really dont realize how bullshit the whole bama narrative is in this whole thing.
Another typical CT argument.
Is there concrete proof Obama was not born in the USA? Not sketchy conjecture or rhetoric in the form spam YouTube vids or opinion pieces? Concrete proof?
Because the boys at fox news Would be running wild with it.
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Ozmo its impossible to pove this since Obama has sealed everything nd have never said what hospital, which doc, who what whwere qwhen or why, no long form BC, everything sealed, etc.
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Ozmo its impossible to pove this since Obama has sealed everything nd have never said what hospital, which doc, who what whwere qwhen or why, no long form BC, everything sealed, etc.
So then none of your YouTube vids, articles, or arguments mean anything.
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? ? ?
You don't think Obama putting what is obviously a fraudulent doc is relevant?
________________________ ________________________ ________________________ ________-
1, Obama’s original vault copy of a long form birth certificate, if one exists. Not released.
2, Obama’s certificate of live birth (short form-COLB), a proven forgery released.
3, In 1961 no computers then to photo-shop or produce Obama’s fraudulent COLB document, in fact the font (type) is computer created, no typewriter had that capability in 1961, fact.
4, This is Obama’s Kenyan Birth Certificate dated Aug. 4, 1961= (in question) http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=105764
5, Dunham-Obama marriage license. Not released.
6, Dunham-Soetoro marriage license. Not released.
7, Barry Soetoro aka Barack Obama adoption records. Not released.
8, Obama’s aka Soetoro’s Besuki School application obtained. (proven) http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/13056.htm
9, Obama’s aka Soetoro’s Punahou School records. Not released.
10, Selective Service Registration – a proven forgery released and a criminal act. (forgery) http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/004431print.html.
11, Obama’s Occidental College records. Not released.
12, Obama’s passport from Indonesia, he had to have one to attend school in Indonesia. Not released.
13, Obama’s U.S. Passport, if one exists. Not released.
14, Obama entered Pakistan on what countries passport. Not released.
15, Obama’s Columbia University records, a foreign exchange student? Not released.
16, Obama’s Columbia University thesis. Not released.
17, Not one name of any student who knows Obama attendant Columbia released or known.
18, Obama’s Harvard Law School records, a foreign exchange student? Not released.
19, Obama’s Harvard Law Review articles, none released.
20, Obama’s Baptism certificate, if one exists? None released.
21, Obama’s Medical records, not released (a one-page statement Obama is healthy).
22, Obama’s Illinois State Senate records. Not released.
23, Obama’s Illinois State Senate schedule. Not released (alleged to have been lost).
24, Obama’s Law practices client list and billing records. Not released.
26, Obama’s University of Chicago scholarly articles, none released or exist?
27, The reason Obama lost his license to practice law in Illinois. Not released.
28, Obama’s campaign donor analysis. Not released.
29, Obama’s list of campaign workers who are lobbyists. Not released.
30, Obama’s list of countries he visited outside the United States before 2008. Not released.
31, Obama never repatriated to the U.S. from his Indonesia citizenship, if documented. Not released.
32, The U.S. Constitution states you CAN NOT be president if you change your U.S. citizenship and are repatriated and you have to be just to become a U.S. citizen again.
33, On January 21, 2009, his first day in office, Barack Obama implemented and signed into law Executive Order 13489, denying any release of anything about him.
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the birthers need no prove, the voice in their head tells them so ;D
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the best repub minds [if there is such a thing] had two years to find this shit out on obama and they did not find a thing. now all the crazies are spewing what ever shit pops in their head. you just have to laugh ;D
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? ? ?
You don't think Obama putting what is obviously a fraudulent doc is relevant?
________________________ ________________________ ________________________ ________-
1, Obama’s original vault copy of a long form birth certificate, if one exists. Not released.
2, Obama’s certificate of live birth (short form-COLB), a proven forgery released.
3, In 1961 no computers then to photo-shop or produce Obama’s fraudulent COLB document, in fact the font (type) is computer created, no typewriter had that capability in 1961, fact.
4, This is Obama’s Kenyan Birth Certificate dated Aug. 4, 1961= (in question) http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=105764
5, Dunham-Obama marriage license. Not released.
6, Dunham-Soetoro marriage license. Not released.
7, Barry Soetoro aka Barack Obama adoption records. Not released.
8, Obama’s aka Soetoro’s Besuki School application obtained. (proven) http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Politics/13056.htm
9, Obama’s aka Soetoro’s Punahou School records. Not released.
10, Selective Service Registration – a proven forgery released and a criminal act. (forgery) http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/004431print.html.
11, Obama’s Occidental College records. Not released.
12, Obama’s passport from Indonesia, he had to have one to attend school in Indonesia. Not released.
13, Obama’s U.S. Passport, if one exists. Not released.
14, Obama entered Pakistan on what countries passport. Not released.
15, Obama’s Columbia University records, a foreign exchange student? Not released.
16, Obama’s Columbia University thesis. Not released.
17, Not one name of any student who knows Obama attendant Columbia released or known.
18, Obama’s Harvard Law School records, a foreign exchange student? Not released.
19, Obama’s Harvard Law Review articles, none released.
20, Obama’s Baptism certificate, if one exists? None released.
21, Obama’s Medical records, not released (a one-page statement Obama is healthy).
22, Obama’s Illinois State Senate records. Not released.
23, Obama’s Illinois State Senate schedule. Not released (alleged to have been lost).
24, Obama’s Law practices client list and billing records. Not released.
26, Obama’s University of Chicago scholarly articles, none released or exist?
27, The reason Obama lost his license to practice law in Illinois. Not released.
28, Obama’s campaign donor analysis. Not released.
29, Obama’s list of campaign workers who are lobbyists. Not released.
30, Obama’s list of countries he visited outside the United States before 2008. Not released.
31, Obama never repatriated to the U.S. from his Indonesia citizenship, if documented. Not released.
32, The U.S. Constitution states you CAN NOT be president if you change your U.S. citizenship and are repatriated and you have to be just to become a U.S. citizen again.
33, On January 21, 2009, his first day in office, Barack Obama implemented and signed into law Executive Order 13489, denying any release of anything about him.
lol, sounds just like the 9/11 CT argument about the pentagon vids not being released. lol
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I haven't delved too deep into the Birther thing, but it doesn't sound they have all that much.
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Poblem is that the whole thing is nw really blowng up and not limited to only the BC - but i'll deal with the colb first. its a forgery.
Thanks. I watched all of them. The first one raises some interesting questions about his time in Indonesia. Hard to verify what they claim, however, when the document is in a foreign language.
The problem I have with these clips is they are kids who sound like those Loose Changes dolts. They avoided the sinister music and theater for the most part, but it sounds like smoke in mirrors by someone with too much time on their hands.
I also read this from snopes: http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp
Governor Lingle had the health director review the birth records and they're satisfied he was born in Hawaii. I do agree he should just release the BC or admit it doesn't exist, but I don't really see a smoking gun here.
Before you get too invested in this, keep in mind he might just be playing people by letting them run down a rabbit trail.
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What gets me is and are all the records not released pertaining to his name changes, adoption, and passports.
Some seriously bizarre stuff there.
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What gets me is and are all the records not released pertaining to his name changes, adoption, and passports.
Some seriously bizarre stuff there.
That's about exactly it, you have some questionable issues that in my mind are credible for examination but not near determining/provable of what you accuse. That....combined with every Bama hater in the nation including yourself unable to come up with anything of substance.
Hence, you got nothing.
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If obama refuses to release anything whatsoever it is what it is.
Same as oj. Just cause oj was good at covering up his crime does not stop us from making logical and likely suppositions as to what occured.
Sorry - people applying for a job at starbucks go through more scrutiny than bama had to for potus and its bizarre that he refuses to divulge anything whatever about his past.
He and his cult should not be at all surprised when he is accused by others of having something to hide.
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If obama refuses to release anything whatsoever it is what it is.
Same as oj. Just cause oj was good at covering up his crime does not stop us from making logical and likely suppositions as to what occured.
Sorry - people applying for a job at starbucks go through more scrutiny than bama had to for potus and its bizarre that he refuses to divulge anything whatever about his past.
He and his cult should not be at all surprised when he is accused by others of having something to hide.
Have you considered other possible reasons for his refusal to release records?
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Like what?
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Like what?
I am asking you. If you have concluded that Bama wasn't born here because of all these questionable actions I would think that you would have researched and explored other possible reasons.
Have you?
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long form birth certificate, code word for i don't like a black man in the white house ;D
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long form birth certificate, code word for i don't like a black man in the white house ;D
The long form thing is a myth. ;D
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Yes it is - in that bama is paying millions to keep his concealed.
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I am asking you. If you have concluded that Bama wasn't born here because of all these questionable actions I would think that you would have researched and explored other possible reasons.
Have you?
Bump so you don't forget what I asked. ;D
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Who
gives a shit asked Donald to provide his birth certificate? ::)
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Donald Trump misses the point about Obama’s birth certificate
Hillbuzz ^ | 3/28/2011 | Kevin DuJan
Donald Trump has released a copy of his original birth certificate…which is something every single Republican should do…and not just ones running for president.
But Trump does not understand the real issue here: Obama is hiding something written on the “name” line of the certificate.
Obama was indeed born in Hawaii in 1961…but he was adopted in Indonesia in the late-60s or early 70s.
At the time of his adoption, his name was legally changed to something like Soetorabakh Soetoro…because Indonesian naming convention is so unusual, there are many possibilities for how his adopted name could be spelled (like all the variants of Khadaffy).
Obama never petitioned to legally change his name back to Barack Hussein Obama upon his return to Hawaii.
When a child is adopted, a new birth certificate with the adopted name is issued…listing the adoptive parent as the father or mother.
So, Obama’s legal birth certificate not only shows Lolo Soetoro as his legal father…but records his legal name as Soetorobakh…NOT Barack Obama.
Because all of these names are so strange and Klingon-like to American ears, this has been a hard concept for many to grasp.
But Trump and others need to start asking what’s on the birth certificate that Obama is so desperate to hide.
Anyone out there with a way to contact Trump directly?
If he REALLY wants to stir the pot, then he needs to talk about the adoption and what name is really on Obama’s birth certificate.
THAT is what Obama has been hiding for 40 years now.
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Ben Smith: Trump fails to produce birth certificateMarch 28, 2011
Categories:2012.Trump fails to produce birth certificate
Donald Trump made headlines earlier today when he provided what he said was a copy of his birth certificate -- but a quick check reveals it's actually not an official document.
The paper that Trump released says "Jamaica Hospital" on top and lists the date and time of what he says was his birth to "Mr. and Mrs. Fred C. Trump." The piece of paper has a seal at the bottom.
But after several New York City-based readers contacted POLITICO's Maggie Haberman, her call to city officials revealed that an actual birth certificate, which is issued by the Department of Health, would have the agency's seal and also a signature of the city registrar - neither of which the Trump document has. Officials said the city Health Department is the "sole issuing authority" of official birth certificates in New York, and that the document would clearly say so, and "city officials said it's not an official document."
It appears instead to be a hospital "certificate of birth," meaning the piece of paper the hospital gave to his family saying he was born. Such a document typically has the signature of the hospital administrator and the attending physician.
Trump lawyer and advisor Michael Cohen didn't respond to Haberman's question about the document.
Trump's mother, it should be noted, was born in Scotland, which is not part of the United States. His plane is registered in the Bahamas, also a foreign country. This fact pattern -- along with the wave of new questions surrounding what he claims is a birth certificate -- raises serious doubts about his eligibility to serve as President of the United States.
Ben Smith: Trump fails to produce birth certificateMarch 28, 2011
Categories:2012.Trump fails to produce birth certificate
Donald Trump made headlines earlier today when he provided what he said was a copy of his birth certificate -- but a quick check reveals it's actually not an official document.
The paper that Trump released says "Jamaica Hospital" on top and lists the date and time of what he says was his birth to "Mr. and Mrs. Fred C. Trump." The piece of paper has a seal at the bottom.
But after several New York City-based readers contacted POLITICO's Maggie Haberman, her call to city officials revealed that an actual birth certificate, which is issued by the Department of Health, would have the agency's seal and also a signature of the city registrar - neither of which the Trump document has. Officials said the city Health Department is the "sole issuing authority" of official birth certificates in New York, and that the document would clearly say so, and "city officials said it's not an official document."
It appears instead to be a hospital "certificate of birth," meaning the piece of paper the hospital gave to his family saying he was born. Such a document typically has the signature of the hospital administrator and the attending physician.
Trump lawyer and advisor Michael Cohen didn't respond to Haberman's question about the document.
Trump's mother, it should be noted, was born in Scotland, which is not part of the United States. His plane is registered in the Bahamas, also a foreign country. This fact pattern -- along with the wave of new questions surrounding what he claims is a birth certificate -- raises serious doubts about his eligibility to serve as President of the United States.
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Ha Ha Ha- so blacken - are you a Trump birther now? ;D ;D ;D
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just showing you how fu#king stupid this whole thing is ;D
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just showing you how fu#king stupid this whole thing is ;D
See its fun being a birther. Now you have your own birther CT's to follow.
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So Trump is ineligible to be POTUS just like Obama? The plot thickens.
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So basically we are expected to believe these dumb ass idiot birthers are smart enough (haha) to discover something the Clinton Machine missed when Hillary was going against him.
Yeahhhhh... ok.
This is like a stupidity buffet with the birthers.
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I am asking you. If you have concluded that Bama wasn't born here because of all these questionable actions I would think that you would have researched and explored other possible reasons.
Have you?
33333, I am starting to get the feeling you didn't consider any other possible reasons, am I correct?
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wow, Trump's sole (media whore) presidential run focus is a real birth cert.
then he delivers an incomplete version. what a freaking joke.
at this point - republicans - enjoy 4 more years of obama. You're giving nonstop attention to morons like palin and trump. enjoy 4 more years of the kenyan reign. You deserve it so fcking bad.
huntman, pawlenty and others are working hard to fix things and focus on issues. All you wanna talk about is what a dick kathy Griffin is, or how trump owned whoopi on the view.
Jeebus. You deserve obama for being so gal darn stupid. Suck it. Enjoy it. morons want trump, you get obama. insane.
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33333, I am starting to get the feeling you didn't consider any other possible reasons, am I correct?
My belief is that the long form BC contains info Obama does not want revealed. Either it provides evidence obama is a muslim, was listed as white on the BC, or in fact had someone else listed as the father on the BC.
I also believe there is a strong chance a long form BC does not exist since barry was born in kenya as the grandmother states and as the other BC states.
The COLB that was produced is pure rubbish of the highest order.
I believe the other records barry is hiding pertains to his registering as a foreign student for student aid to columbia and harvard as well as the fact that his academic record sucked.
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My belief is that the long form BC contains info Obama does not want revealed. Either it provides evidence obama is a muslim, was listed as white on the BC, or in fact had someone else listed as the father on the BC.
I also believe there is a strong chance a long form BC does not exist since barry was born in kenya as the grandmother states and as the other BC states.
The COLB that was produced is pure rubbish of the highest order.
I believe the other records barry is hiding pertains to his registering as a foreign student for student aid to columbia and harvard as well as the fact that his academic record sucked.
So that's it, no other possibilities?
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oz,
if 33 can show you a newspaper article from 6 or 8 or 10 years ago - that interviews obama and announces he's very proud to be born in kenya, and serving in the US Senate -
What will you think then?
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Some cites claim Barry's trips to Pakistan during the 80's and college show KGB and communist ties. That's why he wont release the passports as to his traveles in pakistan. I have read other CT's claiming he was a CIA mole during that time. He was shacking up with a wealthy pakistani at the time who paid for everything for him. I'll drag out those pics and bump the thread on that,
I also believe he is hiding his records to conceal his ties to communist/socialist groups via Frank Marshall Davis et al.
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wow, Trump's sole (media whore) presidential run focus is a real birth cert.
then he delivers an incomplete version. what a freaking joke.
at this point - republicans - enjoy 4 more years of obama. You're giving nonstop attention to morons like palin and trump. enjoy 4 more years of the kenyan reign. You deserve it so fcking bad.
huntman, pawlenty and others are working hard to fix things and focus on issues. All you wanna talk about is what a dick kathy Griffin is, or how trump owned whoopi on the view.
Jeebus. You deserve obama for being so gal darn stupid. Suck it. Enjoy it. morons want trump, you get obama. insane.
Its called being punked. Trump is going to get the media to discuss this and just when the time is right - release everything and Barry and the media are going to be pointing fingers at each other.
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It
Doesn't
Matter.
i wasted years screaming about 911. Didn't make one iota of difference. Is MSM doesn't cover it (and that includes fox), then it doesn't matter.
Candidates gotta focus on economy, war, etc. The rest is chicken scratch - true or not.
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240 - do you know who this guy is?
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no clue. and it doesn't matter.
obama could have been osama bin laden's twin brother, and it wouldn't matter.
The media (FOX, MSN, and everyone in between) calls it a CT, so it is irrelevant by definition. It's bullshit, sure. But the OK City bombing smelled like shit. 911 smelled like shit. Birth Cert smells like shit. And it doesn't matter. Clinton won his job again despite OKC bullshit.... bush won again despite 911 bullshit... and sadly, Obama will probably win again despite probably not even being born here.
It's the world we live in dude.
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no clue. and it doesn't matter.
obama could have been osama bin laden's twin brother, and it wouldn't matter.
The media (FOX, MSN, and everyone in between) calls it a CT, so it is irrelevant by definition. It's bullshit, sure. But the OK City bombing smelled like shit. 911 smelled like shit. Birth Cert smells like shit. And it doesn't matter. Clinton won his job again despite OKC bullshit.... bush won again despite 911 bullshit... and sadly, Obama will probably win again despite probably not even being born here.
It's the world we live in dude.
take a guess
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Some cites claim Barry's trips to Pakistan during the 80's and college show KGB and communist ties. That's why he wont release the passports as to his traveles in pakistan. I have read other CT's claiming he was a CIA mole during that time. He was shacking up with a wealthy pakistani at the time who paid for everything for him. I'll drag out those pics and bump the thread on that,
I also believe he is hiding his records to conceal his ties to communist/socialist groups via Frank Marshall Davis et al.
333
you're taking stupid risks
get off the grid and contact Glenn Beck immediately
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Straw - what is crazy?
He went to pakistan a few times on a passport he wont release for unknown reasons.
He was sponsored by a wealthy pakistani who paid his way while he was in NY. This was confirmed by Dr. Drew.
Bama's mentor was well known communist Frank Marshall Davis. That is a fact.
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so what dude?
just about everyone who reaches the high levels of power have been groomed for it since high school or earlier. Nobody just accidentally becomes president. they form relationships with powerful people, good and bad, around the world on their rise.
and sorry, but "Dr Drew"? The sex doctor from Mtv? he confirmed some big secret? jeez, THAT dr drew?
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so what dude?
just about everyone who reaches the high levels of power have been groomed for it since high school or earlier. Nobody just accidentally becomes president. they form relationships with powerful people, good and bad, around the world on their rise.
and sorry, but "Dr Drew"? The sex doctor from Mtv? he confirmed some big secret? jeez, THAT dr drew?
lol. No 240! I'll bump the thread. I have posted it before. Its from someone who knows barry and said he is a hardcore commie.
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eh, really... it's all CT fodder. "Someone who knows barry", huh?
Sheeit, you could run for office tomorrow - and I could claim I know you - and from your posts here, I could probably write a book on you lol (and vice verse, you on me).
It doesn't matter. Rudy was right. That boat has sailed. His fuct up positions and policy are all that matter now. Every minute trump is talknikg about the birth cert (for headlines, ratings, and show numbers), it means america isn't hearing about the BS in libya or govt deadline extensions for shutdown, etc.
Trump is quite a distraction - helping obama actually lol... (if you're a birhter, you probably already didn't vote obama, right?)
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eh, really... it's all CT fodder. "Someone who knows barry", huh?
Sheeit, you could run for office tomorrow - and I could claim I know you - and from your posts here, I could probably write a book on you lol (and vice verse, you on me).
It doesn't matter. Rudy was right. That boat has sailed. His fuct up positions and policy are all that matter now. Every minute trump is talknikg about the birth cert (for headlines, ratings, and show numbers), it means america isn't hearing about the BS in libya or govt deadline extensions for shutdown, etc.
Trump is quite a distraction - helping obama actually lol... (if you're a birhter, you probably already didn't vote obama, right?)
Bama not doing well on gallup today.
BTW - Trump is kicking ass on this topic. Its on drudge, politico, getbig, everywhere, etc.
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BTW - Trump is kicking ass on this topic. Its on drudge, politico, getbig, everywhere, etc.
This means that all these news outlets aren't talking about the govt shutdown. nothing about the war. They're talking about a media sexy fued that will result in nothing.
And I got shit on for hatin' on palin for her bullshit... but this bullshit is okay because 'it's all over drudge and getbig".
Obama's wrecking the place, but nobody knows it cause they're too busy jherking off to this years' "The Donald" fued. Charming. Wonderful. Enjoy 4 more years of him, cause this is prime "point out his screw up" time, and it's getting squandered.
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;D
at this point all you can do is laugh no?
BTW - your posts are cracking me up.
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all i can do is shake my head. of course the birthers are right. but didn't they learn anything about the 911 skeptics they were mocking for 8 years? it's a one-way ticket to being irrelevant on a national stage.
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all i can do is shake my head. of course the birthers are right. but didn't they learn anything about the 911 skeptics they were mocking for 8 years? it's a one-way ticket to being irrelevant on a national stage.
You know my thoughts- if I can get even one kick in the balls to obama at this point its worth it to me. His humiliation is my laughter. ;D
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Logo Donald Trump Proves He Was Born In Queens
fox news ^ | 3/28/11 | Kathleen Foster
Donald Trump says he was able to get his hands on his birth certificate within an hour, so why can't President Obama?
"Somebody asked me today, 'Can I see your birth certificate?' I had it in my hands in less than an hour," Trump told Fox's Greta Van Susteren tonight on On The Record.
He provided a copy for Greta. Click here to see it.
During a phone interview, Van Susteren asked Trump why he doesn't believe President Obama was born in the United States.
"I want to see his birth certificate," Trump said, "He doesn't have it. He spent millions of dollars on lawyers trying to get out of the issue. They give what's called a certificate of live birth which doesn't even have a signature on it, and anybody can get a certificate of live birth. It's nothing to do with a birth certificate."
(Excerpt) Read more at politics.blogs.foxnews.c om ...
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Skip to comments.
Donald Trump releases his birth certificate, demands Obama does the same
The Los Angeles Times ^ | March 28, 2011 | Andrew Malcolm
Donald Trump, like a hungry dog unwilling to let go of a bone, not only refuses to stop attacking President Obama over his birth certificate, but Monday released his own certificate of birth to a conservative website.
Trump, the billionaire television star and real estate mogul, was on "Fox and Friends" Monday morning beating the "birther" drum.
"Why doesn't he show his birth certificate?" Trump asked the hosts of the talk show, echoing what he repeated on "The View" last week. "I wish he would, because I think it's a terrible pale that's hanging over him."
Later Trump, who has hinted at running for the Republican nomination for president, placed doubt upon Hawaii Gov. Neil Abercrombie's statement that he remembers Obama as a baby in Hawaii.
"What bothers me is that some people who should know better are trying to use this for political reasons," Abercrombie said in late 2010....
(Excerpt) Read more at latimesblogs.latimes.com ...
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This is all bullshit, but whatever.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2008/jun/27/obamas-birth-certificate-part-ii/
Obama's birth certificate: Final chapter
By Amy Hollyfield
Published on Friday, June 27th, 2008 at 5:21 p.m.
Related rulings:
"His true name is Barak Hussein Muhammed Obama."
Chain e-mail, Friday, April 18th, 2008.
UPDATE, July 2009: It's been a year since we published this article, and Obama's birth certificate is still the subject of much speculation. So on July 1, 2009, we published two Truth-O-Meter items exploring new aspects of the controversy. In one, we explored whether a White House spokesman lied when he claimed Obama's birth certificate is actually posted on the Web , and the other one examined whether a bill in Congress would protect Obama from having to release his birth certificate .
Here's our original story as published in June 2008:
SUMMARY: Since we published Obama's birth certificate, questions about its authenticity have been frequent and fierce. After reviewing the evidence, we're confident in our rulings .
It started as a whisper, a trickle of nagging doubt.
"As a concerned citizen, I'm wondering if there isn't something fishy going on with the Obama certificate."
"I have serious doubts about the purported 'birth certificate' you were sent."
"Something doesn't smell right."
Soon, e-mails and blog posts were flying. As the pace quickened, the tone sharpened.
"You should be apologizing ... for your misinformation regarding BO bogus birth certificate, that you claimed was genuine!"
At full throttle, the accusations are explosive and unrelenting, the writers emboldened by the anonymity and reach of the Internet.
And you can't help but ask: How do you prove something to people who come to the facts believing, out of fear or hatred or maybe just partisanship, that they're being tricked?
• • •
Sen. Barack Obama's birth certificate is a document PolitiFact.com had sought for months. Countless chain e-mails, seeking to paint him as a secret Muslim, speculated that his full name included Muhammed (or Mohammed). Some said he is not an American citizen.
As a fact-checking news Web site, we went to extensive lengths to sort out the truth. We got a copy of his 1992 marriage certificate from the Cook County (Ill.) Bureau of Vital Statistics. His driver's license record from the Illinois Secretary of State's office. His registration and disciplinary record with the Attorney Registration & Disciplinary Commission of the Supreme Court of Illinois. Not to mention all of his property records.
Not one of these documents shows a Muhammed (or Mohammed) in Obama's name. They all read "Barack H. Obama" or "Barack Hussein Obama."
The ultimate document we sought was Obama's birth certificate. Unlike the other documents, Hawaii birth certificates aren't public record. Only family members can request copies, so when the campaign declined to give us one, we were stalled.
On June 13, 2008, Obama's campaign finally released a copy, while launching a fact-check Web site of its own, Fightthesmears.com. The site is a direct response to allegations about Obama that won't go away: He's Muslim. He took the oath of office on a Koran. He refuses to say the Pledge of Allegiance. PolitiFact has researched all of these accusations and none of them are true.
When the birth certificate arrived from the Obama campaign it confirmed his name as the other documents already showed it. Still, we took an extra step: We e-mailed it to the Hawaii Department of Health, which maintains such records, to ask if it was real.
"It's a valid Hawaii state birth certificate," spokesman Janice Okubo told us.
Then the firestorm started.
• Where is the embossed seal and the registrar's signature?
• Comparing it to other Hawaii birth certificates, the color shade is different.
• Isn't the date stamp bleeding through the back of the document "June 2007?" (Odd since it was supposedly released in June 2008.)
• There's no crease from being folded and mailed.
• It's clearly Photoshopped and a wholesale fraud.
• • •
At PolitiFact.com, we're all about original sources. We don't take anyone at their word or take the reporting of other media organizations as proof. We go to the heart of the story, the source of the truth — original, corroborating documents.
When the official documents were questioned, we went looking for more answers. We circled back to the Department of Health, had a newsroom colleague bring in her own Hawaii birth certificate to see if it looks the same (it's identical). But every answer triggered more questions.
And soon enough, after going to every length possible to confirm the birth certificate's authenticity, you start asking, what is reasonable here?
Because if this document is forged, then they all are.
If this document is forged, a U.S. senator and his presidential campaign have perpetrated a vast, long-term fraud. They have done it with conspiring officials at the Hawaii Department of Health, the Cook County (Ill.) Bureau of Vital Statistics, the Illinois Secretary of State's office, the Attorney Registration & Disciplinary Commission of the Supreme Court of Illinois and many other government agencies.
Sounds like a Vince Flynn novel.
• • •
Peter Goelz knows a little something about conspiracy theorists.
He was managing director of the National Transportation Safety Board in 1996 when TWA Flight 800 crashed off Long Island, killing 230 people. While the NTSB's investigation found no evidence of sabotage or terrorism, the Internet was stocked with insistent accusations.
"We were right at the beginning of this Internet lunacy," Goelz said in an interview with PolitiFact. "And there were a variety of crackpot Web sites and Web commentators that generated all sorts of rumors. The principle one was that TWA in fact was shot down by an errant Navy missile in ... a live-fire exercise off the Hamptons."
Nine miles off Long Island, in the middle of summer. And then a full-scale coverup by the Navy and all the sailors involved.
"I am sure that we spent another $10-million, perhaps $20-million, out of a $50-million investigation, to just knock down and put to bed these kinds of rumors, these insidious rumors," Goelz said. "We felt like we had to answer every question because it was such a public and dreadful and confounding event."
Goelz, who is now a communications consultant in Washington, D.C., says the Internet has given a platform to anyone to say anything. And a way to find others who want to hear it.
"Online, they can be almost anything," he said. "They can be the crusading investigators that they always wanted to be."
• • •
The Hawaii Department of Health receives about a dozen e-mail inquiries a day about Obama's birth certificate, spokesman Okubo said.
"I guess the big issue that's being raised is the lack of an embossed seal and a signature," Okubo said, pointing out that in Hawaii, both those things are on the back of the document. "Because they scanned the front … you wouldn't see those things."
Okubo says she got a copy of her own birth certificate last year and it is identical to the Obama one we received.
And about the copy we e-mailed her for verification? "When we looked at that image you guys sent us, our registrar, he thought he could see pieces of the embossed image through it."
Still, she acknowledges: "I don't know that it's possible for us to even say beyond a doubt what the image on the site represents."
• • •
And there's the rub. It is possible that Obama conspired his way to the precipice of the world's biggest job, involving a vast network of people and government agencies over decades of lies. Anything's possible.
But step back and look at the overwhelming evidence to the contrary and your sense of what's reasonable has to take over.
There is not one shred of evidence to disprove PolitiFact's conclusion that the candidate's name is Barack Hussein Obama, or to support allegations that the birth certificate he released isn't authentic.
And that's true no matter how many people cling to some hint of doubt and use the Internet to fuel their innate sense of distrust.
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I am starting to think Birthers are victims of CT genre.
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I am starting to think Birthers are victims of CT genre.
Yeah, because its all common sense to spend $1,000,000 to keep hidden what can be revealed for $10. But then agan this is obaa we are talking about so in his head, that probably is very reasonable.
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Yeah, because its all common sense to spend $1,000,000 to keep hidden what can be revealed for $10. But then agan this is obaa we are talking about so in his head, that probably is very reasonable.
Yep, you are now a bonifoed CT'er falling for stupid arguments like that.
"yeah it's all common sense that WTC 7 defied the laws of physics"
"Yeah it's it's all common sense that plane hit the pentagon and there was no debris"
"Yeah it's all common sense that 19 hijackers pulled this off by themselves"
Facts, young grasshopper, stick to facts. All you have is conjecture and rhetoric. So like I said earlier, you got nothing. You don't even enough objectivity to research possible other reasons and consider them. Your hatred clouds your judgement and you are compromised.
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Well, we know obama certainly does not want to talk about, lets see:
Jobs
Health Care
Economy
Energy
Inflation
Wars
etc etc.
Hmm
Jobs-Declared a recession before he took office. If you know anything about history, Recession=loss of jobs... jesus youre dumb
Health Care- yeah because it was awesome before he fucked it up :-\
Economy-Yeah kind of goes back to the Recession thing.. this is the buckshot approach you take.. remember we talked about this
Energy -Yeah... In which way... his policy on offshore drilling, after an oil spill that left a gazillion gallons of crude in the gulf... i can understand it..
Inflation-Back To recession.. lol youre funny.. sad...but funny
Wars =-Kinda had 2 going on when he took office.. and he didnt start them.. so.. um.. like what are you saying with this
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Hmm
Jobs-Declared a recession before he took office. If you know anything about history, Recession=loss of jobs... jesus youre dumb
Health Care- yeah because it was awesome before he fucked it up :-\
Economy-Yeah kind of goes back to the Recession thing.. this is the buckshot approach you take.. remember we talked about this
Energy -Yeah... In which way... his policy on offshore drilling, after an oil spill that left a gazillion gallons of crude in the gulf... i can understand it..
Inflation-Back To recession.. lol youre funny.. sad...but funny
Wars =-Kinda had 2 going on when he took office.. and he didnt start them.. so.. um.. like what are you saying with this
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there you go.. dont debate. Post pictures.. hahahaha
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there you go.. dont debate. Post pictures.. hahahaha
Your list made me laugh to hard to post anything.
Obama campaign themses for 2012 -
"What did you expect"
"It could have been worse"
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Yep, you are now a bonifoed CT'er falling for stupid arguments like that.
"yeah it's all common sense that WTC 7 defied the laws of physics"
"Yeah it's it's all common sense that plane hit the pentagon and there was no debris"
"Yeah it's all common sense that 19 hijackers pulled this off by themselves"
Facts, young grasshopper, stick to facts. All you have is conjecture and rhetoric. So like I said earlier, you got nothing. You don't even enough objectivity to research possible other reasons and consider them. Your hatred clouds your judgement and you are compromised.
I think there are legitimate questions about why he won't either release his BC or explain what happened to it, but I agree there really isn't anything to prove he was born in Kenya. This really could make some Republicans look like fools if they try and make it an issue.
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I think there are legitimate questions about why he won't either release his BC or explain what happened to it, but I agree there really isn't anything to prove he was born in Kenya. This really could make some Republicans look like fools if they try and make it an issue.
Other han the grandmother saying she witnessed his birth in Kenya as well as the Kenyan ambassabor saying Barry was born there. ;D
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I think there are legitimate questions about why he won't either release his BC or explain what happened to it, but I agree there really isn't anything to prove he was born in Kenya. This really could make some Republicans look like fools if they try and make it an issue.
I agree they are legit questions and they should be answered. I don't know that people have any legal option to make that happen. I also agree if repubs follow that rabbit trail and take a public stand they could get butchered.
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Other han the grandmother saying she witnessed his birth in Kenya as well as the Kenyan ambassabor saying Barry was born there. ;D
Man don't get too invested in this. There are so many other areas where you can legitimately attack Obama. Don't get played.
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My only question is this... How many other Presidents of the United states have shown their birth certificates due to people not believing they were born in this country?
When was the last time that someone was running for POTUS and all of a sudden, there was some question about their birth status?
I'm just saying that if no one sat around and asked Clinton, or Nixon, or Kennedy, or Martin Van Buren for their birth certificates, then why do people ask about Obama?
Why does everyone believe that there is a HUGE conspiracy between Hawaii and Illinois and that EVERYONE must be a liar?
Seriously... This is crazy talk.
Obviously he was vetted while running for President... Come on!
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I agree they are legit questions and they should be answered. I don't know that people have any legal option to make that happen. I also agree if repubs follow that rabbit trail and take a public stand they could get butchered.
They have to be careful not to start sounding like CT nuts. There is a reason nobody talks about that 9/11 nonsense.
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Other han the grandmother saying she witnessed his birth in Kenya as well as the Kenyan ambassabor saying Barry was born there. ;D
So we believe old ladies who are obviously well past their prime and Kenyans?
This is who you believe over all of the people in US public office? CRAZY TALK.Man don't get too invested in this. There are so many other areas where you can legitimately attack Obama. Don't get played.
That's what I'm saying... stick to real issues. This is the kind of shit that makes Palin and now you, look like a lunatic.
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So we believe old ladies who are obviously well past their prime and Kenyans?
This is who you believe over all of the people in US public office? CRAZY TALK.
That's what I'm saying... stick to real issues. This is the kind of shit that makes Palin and now you, look like a lunatic.
Really have you looked in to this in any detail whatsoever? No.
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Pawlenty calls out Trump
By: CNN Ticker Producer Alexander Mooney
(CNN) - Donald Trump should quit questioning President Obama's birthplace, says Tim Pawlenty, a potential future opponent of Trump's for the Republican presidential nomination.
Appearing on MSNBC's Morning Joe, Pawlenty said he doesn't doubt Obama was, in fact, born in Hawaii and says members of his party should stop pushing the issue.
"I, for one, do not believe we should be raising that issue," the ex-Minnesota governor said. "I think President Obama was born in the United States."
As for his thoughts on a seemingly improbable Trump presidential candidacy, Pawlently said, "I think he's talented. I think he's funny. I think he's interesting."
The comments come a day after Trump pushed the issue farther down the road, telling Fox News he is "really concerned" the president was not born in the United States.
"All of the sudden a lot of facts are emerging, and I am starting to wonder myself whether he was born in this country," he said.
Trump followed those comments up by releasing what he said was his own birth certificate to the conservative website Newsmax.com. The certificate Trump released however is not an official one, according to Politico.
It should be noted that CNN and other news organizations have thoroughly debunked the rumors about the president's birthplace. Hawaii has released a copy of the president's birth certificate - officially called a "certificate of live birth" - and the hospital where he was born took out ads in two Hawaiian newspapers in 1961 announcing the birth.
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/29/pawlenty-calls-out-trump/#more-151971
-------------------
So it was in the paper in 1961 and yet he STILL wasn't born there?!
BWAHAHAHA!!! kooooooooks!!!!
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Really have you looked in to this in any detail whatsoever? No.
Read my previous post.
the hospital where he was born took out ads in two Hawaiian newspapers in 1961 announcing the birth.
You are looking like a loon dude.
;)
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That's what I'm saying... stick to real issues. This is the kind of shit that makes Palin and now you, look like a lunatic.
How does this make Palin and me look like a lunatic?
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Read my previous post.
the hospital where he was born took out ads in two Hawaiian newspapers in 1961 announcing the birth.
You are looking like a loon dude.
;)
No they didnt. Post the gif. There are no records whatsoever of his birth at any hospital in HA, no doctor named, no midwife, nothing, and even members of his own family contradict which hospital it is.
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How does this make Palin and me look like a lunatic?
Not you... I really meant 3333 actually. My bad for using you there... I really meant "him".
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Not you... I really meant 3333 actually. My bad for using you there... I really meant "him".
No worries.
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No they didnt. Post the gif. There are no records whatsoever of his birth at any hospital in HA, no doctor named, no midwife, nothing, and even members of his own family contradict which hospital it is.
Post the gif where his birth was announced in Kenya in 1961 and I will.
See, you're asking for proof from one side without requiring it from the other.
You will take the word of one side over the other without any proof what so ever and then claim that the side you don't like is at fault... That's the problem.
If you really want to be factual... you will require it from BOTH parties... but you don't care about facts in this instance, you care about crazy.
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Post the gif where his birth was announced in Kenya in 1961 and I will.
See, you're asking for proof from one side without requiring it from the other.
You will take the word of one side over the other without any proof what so ever and then claim that the side you don't like is at fault... That's the problem.
If you really want to be factual... you will require it from BOTH parties... but you don't care about facts in this instance, you care about crazy.
/quote]
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/obamabirth.php
no?
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Post the gif where his birth was announced in Kenya in 1961 and I will.
See, you're asking for proof from one side without requiring it from the other.
You will take the word of one side over the other without any proof what so ever and then claim that the side you don't like is at fault... That's the problem.
If you really want to be factual... you will require it from BOTH parties... but you don't care about facts in this instance, you care about crazy.
/quote]
That doesnt prove shit! Did you even look at that thing?
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/obamabirth.php
no?
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Take Two: Donald Trump Releases Official Birth Certificate
March 29, 2011 1:11 PM
News Michael Falcone reports:
Donald Trump learned the hard way this week that if you're going to call on the president to release his official birth certificate, you'd better do the same.
Trump, who has been putting pressure on Obama lately to make public his long-form birth certificate from Hawaii, decided to set a good example and release his own on Monday. Only problem was, the document that Trump provided to the conservative Website Newsmax wasn't his actual birth certificate, but rather a "hospital certificate of birth."
On Tuesday, Trump, who is contemplating a presidential run in 2012, sought to correct the oversight, providing a copy of his official birth certificate issued by the New York City Department of Health to ABC News.
See a larger version HERE.
It shows that "Donald John Trump" was born June 14, 1946 in Jamaica Hospital in Queens.It lists his father as Fred C. Trump and his mother as Mary Mac Leod. The date of the report is listed as June 14, 1946.
The image came with an accompanying memo from a member of Trump's staff.
"A 'birth certificate' and a 'certificate of live birth' are in no way the same thing, even though in some cases they use some of the same words," wrote Trump staffer Thuy Colayco in a message to ABC News. "One officially confirms and records a newborn child’s identity and details of his or her birth, while the other only confirms that someone reported the birth of a child. Also, a 'certificate of live birth' is very easy to get because the standards are much lower, while a 'birth certificate' is only gotten through a long and detailed process wherein identity must be proved beyond any doubt. If you had only a certificate of live birth, you would not be able to get a proper passport from the Post Office or a driver’s license from the Department of Motor Vehicles. Therefore, there is very significant difference between a 'certificate of live birth' and a 'birth certificate' and one should never be confused with the other."
(Click Here to see a photo of Donald Trump's hospital certificate of birth, obtained by the Newsmax on Monday.)
Trump has been turning up the volume on his calls for Obama, who has been the target of allegations that he was not born in the United States by so-called "birthers," to release his official birth certificate.
"This guy either has a birth certificate or he doesn't," Trump said in an interview on Fox News on Monday. "I didn't think this was such a big deal, but I will tell you, it's turning out to be a very big deal because people now are calling me from all over saying please don't give up on this issue."
The Obama campaign released a "certification of live birth," which is a shorter document that carries the same legal weight as the long one, in 2008.
Trump has brought up the issue again and again. In a recent interview with ABC's "The View," he said that Obama has "a terrible pale that's hanging over with him" because of his refusal to release the document.
Michael Cohen, an executive at the Trump Organization, who has been leading a "Draft Trump" movement insisted that his boss was not a "birther," but rather was attempting to hold the Obama administration, which rode into offices on promises of transparency, accountable.
The misstep, however, indicates how perilous a path this line of attack might be to any of the potential 2012 presidential candidates who choose to pursue it. Already one likely Republican contender, Tim Pawlenty, indicated that Trump’s emphasis on the issue was unwise.
“I, for one, do not believe we should be raising that issue," the former Minnesota governor said in an interview MSNBC on Tuesday. "I think President Obama was born in the United States."
Trump discussed his calls for Obama to release his official birth certificate on ABC's "The View" last week:
________________________ ________________________ _______________________-
OK OBAMA - YOUR TURN!
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OK OBAMA - YOUR TURN!
Why? Because Trump says so?
HAHAHAHAHA!!!!
Whatever... Sometimes 333, you seem so smart, then sometimes, you sound like such an idiot... Ok, seriously, who do you let have your account during the smart times? I like that guy.
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Why? Because Trump says so?
HAHAHAHAHA!!!!
Whatever... Sometimes 333, you seem so smart, then sometimes, you sound like such an idiot... Ok, seriously, who do you let have your account during the smart times? I like that guy.
If he was not born here and not a NBC, he needs to leave office asap and everything he signed voided. Sorry, its a constitutional requirement for POTUS.
and as far as the birth annoncement - did you see that thing? It proves nothing at all. No hospital, nothing.
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If he was not born here and not a NBC, he needs to leave office asap and everything he signed voided. Sorry, its a constitutional requirement for POTUS.
and as far as the birth annoncement - did you see that thing? It proves nothing at all. No hospital, nothing.
There is NOTHING that proves he wasn't born here.
But don't confuse CT'ers with facts.
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There is NOTHING that proves he wasn't born here.
But don't confuse CT'ers with facts.
There is nothing that proves obama was. Under the US Const. you have eligibility requirements to be a NBC, which obama has not done. He has a fraudulent COLB that is a forgery and has provided nothing to show he is a NBC.
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;)
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pathetic at this point. sad.
33, you know more about the destructive nature of obama than anyone else on getbig. you study this shit, you live for it.
and you focus on christmas decorations and CTs. Not economy and war, etc.
Sometimes, I think you're Joe Biden himself, blogging away all day :)
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pathetic at this point. sad.
33, you know more about the destructive nature of obama than anyone else on getbig. you study this shit, you live for it.
and you focus on christmas decorations and CTs. Not economy and war, etc.
Sometimes, I think you're Joe Biden himself, blogging away all day :)
Yawn. Look at my last threads across the board. I have 5 goods for every one like this.
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Yawn. Look at my last threads across the board. I have 5 goods for every one like this.
obama thanks you for your service on this birther issue.
you've convinced 5 people who already voted for mccain (and against obama) of another reason to vote repub in 2012.
you've also convinced 15 swing voters that repubs are obsessed and batshit crazy, and 'at least Obama isn't screaming conspiracy theories on The View. These swing voters will now vote obama (again, but only for some of them).
Thanks, Biden.
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pathetic at this point. sad.
33, you know more about the destructive nature of obama than anyone else on getbig. you study this shit, you live for it.
and you focus on christmas decorations and CTs. Not economy and war, etc.
Sometimes, I think you're Joe Biden himself, blogging away all day :)
Next 33333 will have his NCAA predictions for 2012.
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Next 33333 will have his NCAA predictions for 2012.
I dont like thug ball.
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There is nothing that proves obama was. Under the US Const. you have eligibility requirements to be a NBC, which obama has not done. He has a fraudulent COLB that is a forgery and has provided nothing to show he is a NBC.
Its enough for the mighty republican party who would have everything to gain for proving Bama was not born here.
Fact is, it is enough for anyone but a CT'er.
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I dont like thug ball.
that's what the NCAA college basketball tourney is to you?
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obama thanks you for your service on this birther issue.
you've convinced 5 people who already voted for mccain (and against obama) of another reason to vote repub in 2012.
you've also convinced 15 swing voters that repubs are obsessed and batshit crazy, and 'at least Obama isn't screaming conspiracy theories on The View. These swing voters will now vote obama (again, but only for some of them).
Thanks, Biden.
I'm a swing voter and this birther thing does nothing to overshadow the failures of the Obama regime.
You seem to place more emphasis on birthers than you do things like the economy, our third war, gas prices and so on. It's quite pathetic. Then again, you're the same creepy, gun-toting Southerner with a hard-on for everything Palin. :-\
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the only person who seems to place emphasis on Obama's birth records on this board is 33333.
I could be wrong. Is there anyone else?
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the only person who seems to place emphasis on Obama's birth records on this board is 33333.
I could be wrong. Is there anyone else?
I place emphasis on a ton of things this horrible admn is doing.
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I place emphasis on a ton of things this horrible admn is doing.
No you sometimes, (more often lately) focus on really stupid shit. Petty and ridiculous.
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No you sometimes, (more often lately) focus on really stupid shit. Petty and ridiculous.
He's the only one? Have you seen this board? 75% of the stuff posted on here is shit. Should I drag up the 5 million Sarah Palin threads?
This board pretty much consists of 333's threads, copy/pasted MSNBC clips ripped off DU, and Sarah Palin threads. Oh, and Samson fearmongering.
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He's the only one? Have you seen this board? 75% of the stuff posted on here is shit. Should I drag up the 5 million Sarah Palin threads?
This board pretty much consists of 333's threads, copy/pasted MSNBC clips ripped off DU, and Sarah Palin threads. Oh, and Samson fearmongering.
You might be right. I tend to not open up the Palin threads.
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You might be right. I tend to not open up the Palin threads.
I just find it interesting that people seem to always focus on the dumb shit. Not a single Obama drone will debate 333 on anything but these CT threads. They're much more content slinging personal insults.
For proof, just look at his conglomerate threads about the economy and what not. They don't even dare to show their faces in those threads because they're incapable of refuting the claims and instead only show up in threads like this birther one. They'd much rather sling insults.
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No they didnt. Post the gif. There are no records whatsoever of his birth at any hospital in HA, no doctor named, no midwife, nothing, and even members of his own family contradict which hospital it is.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/obamabirth.php
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He's the only one? Have you seen this board? 75% of the stuff posted on here is shit. Should I drag up the 5 million Sarah Palin threads?
This board pretty much consists of 333's threads, copy/pasted MSNBC clips ripped off DU, and Sarah Palin threads. Oh, and Samson fearmongering.
Truth!
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BORN IN THE USA?
Unveiled! Hawaii's 1961 long-form birth certificates
Real documents include name of doctor, hospital
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Posted: July 28, 2009
9:35 pm Eastern
By Jerome R. Corsi
© 2011 WorldNetDaily
Eleanor Nordyke displays photostats of her twin daughters' birth certificates (Courtesy Honolulu Advertiser)
Images of two 1961 Hawaii birth certificates similar to the one President Obama purportedly has on file have now been unveiled.
The Honolulu Advertiser published photostats of the original long-form birth certificates of twin daughters born to Eleanor Nordyke at Kapi'olani Maternity and Gynecological Hospital Aug. 5, 1961, one day after Obama was supposedly born at the same facility.
The Nordykes' certificates include information missing from the short-form document for Obama published online, including the name of the hospital, the name of the attending physician, name and address of the parents, the race of the parents and the race of the baby.
As WND reported yesterday, Hawaii's director of health responded to the growing controversy over the White House's refusal to release Obama's original long-form birth certificate by issuing a statement about the document in apparent contravention of Hawaiian law.
(Story continues below)
Dr. Chiyome Fukino declared she has seen the "original birth records" that verify Obama was born in Hawaii and is a "natural-born American citizen," the Honolulu Advertiser reported.
Join in WND's Fedex campaign and tell Obama you don't buy his state-run media coverup!
But in two separate telephone interviews with WND, Janice Okubo, the health department's public information officer, told WND that Hawaii law prohibited her from commenting on the birth records of any specific person.
WND also reported the Hawaii Department of Heath affirmed that no paper birth certificate records were destroyed when the department moved to electronic record-keeping in 2001.
Photostat of Susan Nordyke's 1961 Hawaii birth certificate (Courtesy Honolulu Advertiser)
The statement to WND by Janice Okubo, public information officer for state's health department, contradicted CNN U.S. President Jon Klein, who ordered host Lou Dobbs to quit discussing Obama's birth certificate on the air. Klein insisted the issue was "dead" because Obama's original long-form birth certificate had been destroyed by the Hawaii DOH in the conversion to electronic files.
A close examination of the birth certificates issued by Kapi'olani to the Nordyke twins shows the registration number precedes the number given Obama, even though the future president was born a day earlier.
Susan Nordyke was born at 2:12 p.m. Hawaii time and was given No. 151 – 61 – 10637, which was filed with the Hawaii registrar Aug. 11, 1961.
Gretchen Nordyke followed at 2:17 p.m. and was given No. 151 – 61 – 10638, which was also filed with the Hawaii registrar Aug. 11, 1961.
According to a version of Obama's purported short-form certificate available from FactCheck.org, Obama was given a higher registration number than the Nordyke twins. The online image indicates the number is No. 151 – 1961 – 10641, even though he was born Aug. 4, 1961, the day before the twins, and his birth was registered with the Hawaii registrar three days earlier, Aug. 8, 1961.
The middle figure in Obama's purported registration also is different than the Nordykes'. Obama's is 1961, indicating the year, while the Nordykes' is merely 61.
One explanation for the out-of-order serial numbers might be that several serialized stacks of birth certificates were made available at different hospitals.
Another possibility is that Obama's number is not a genuine registration number created in 1961 but was issued when the short-form document was generated during the 2008 presidential campaign.
Eleanor Nordyke told WND she thinks her twins got lower numbers because she went into the hospital Aug. 4, 1961, and was in labor for 20 hours before she delivered. She speculates that Ann Dunham came in after her and was given a later number, even though Dunham's baby was born earlier. Nordyke's twins were not born until the afternoon of the next day.
WND was unable to receive a response from Hawaii officials regarding the state's procedure for issuing registration numbers.
Meanwhile, an image of an apparently fraudulent Kenyan certificate of birth circulated on the Web today from an unknown source. It alleged Obama was born in Mombasa. But a contributor at FreeRepublic.com debunked it, declaring "Busted!"
He pointed out that the background text, in Dutch, explained, in a rough translation, "This is not a government document. This is political commentary."
It's not just Obama's original birth certificate at issue. WND has reported that among the documentation not yet available for Obama includes his kindergarten records, his Punahou school records, his Occidental College records, his Columbia University records, his Columbia thesis, his Harvard Law School records, his Harvard Law Review articles, his scholarly articles from the University of Chicago, his passport, his medical records, his files from his years as an Illinois state senator, his Illinois State Bar Association records, any baptism records, and his adoption records.
Note: Members of the news media wishing to interview Jerome Corsi, Joseph Farah, Joe Kovacs, Chelsea Schilling, Les Kinsolving or Bob Unruh on this issue, please contact WND.
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I just find it interesting that people seem to always focus on the dumb shit. Not a single Obama drone will debate 333 on anything but these CT threads. They're much more content slinging personal insults.
For proof, just look at his conglomerate threads about the economy and what not. They don't even dare to show their faces in those threads because they're incapable of refuting the claims and instead only show up in threads like this birther one. They'd much rather sling insults.
Agreed.
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A close examination of the birth certificates issued by Kapi'olani to the Nordyke twins shows the registration number precedes the number given Obama, even though the future president was born a day earlier.
Susan Nordyke was born at 2:12 p.m. Hawaii time and was given No. 151 – 61 – 10637, which was filed with the Hawaii registrar Aug. 11, 1961.
Gretchen Nordyke followed at 2:17 p.m. and was given No. 151 – 61 – 10638, which was also filed with the Hawaii registrar Aug. 11, 1961.
According to a version of Obama's purported short-form certificate available from FactCheck.org, Obama was given a higher registration number than the Nordyke twins. The online image indicates the number is No. 151 – 1961 – 10641, even though he was born Aug. 4, 1961, the day before the twins, and his birth was registered with the Hawaii registrar three days earlier, Aug. 8, 1961.
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NOTHING TO SEE HERE NOW! ::) ::) ::)
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your own article later debunks this - listing the facts obama's mama was in and out of the hospital, and it took 20 hours for the twins to be born. Also, different hospitals worked on different stacks of forms.
This is a stretch, homie.
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your own article later debunks this - listing the facts obama's mama was in and out of the hospital, and it took 20 hours for the twins to be born. Also, different hospitals worked on different stacks of forms.
This is a stretch, homie.
That should be easy to figure out - who was the doctor and what hospital? Oh that's right, they wont reveal that and thre are ZERO records proving any of that.
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I just find it interesting that people seem to always focus on the dumb shit. Not a single Obama drone will debate 333 on anything but these CT threads. They're much more content slinging personal insults.
For proof, just look at his conglomerate threads about the economy and what not. They don't even dare to show their faces in those threads because they're incapable of refuting the claims and instead only show up in threads like this birther one. They'd much rather sling insults.
NOT AT ALL..I outed his "I got a letter and my rates increased because of Obama care GGGGRRRRRSFDJFSDHFDSOIFH!!!!" thread as he tried to get that past us
The oil shit.. he (and you for that matter) acted like it was Obamas fault that the gas was going up and it was because of a lack of supply..
and many more.
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NOT AT ALL..I outed his "I got a letter and my rates increased because of Obama care GGGGRRRRRSFDJFSDHFDSOIFH!!!!" thread as he tried to get that past us
The oil shit.. he (and you for that matter) acted like it was Obamas fault that the gas was going up and it was because of a lack of supply..
and many more.
Yawn - businesses and private payers have all been etting massive hikes SINCE and DUE TO obamacare since that piece of trash was passed.
Good job kneepadding for the messiah as always.
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Yawn - businesses and private payers have all been etting massive hikes SINCE and DUE TO obamacare since that piece of trash was passed.
Good job kneepadding for the messiah as always.
he's camped out in your head...you post content from other conservative writers and pass it as proof.. epic fail
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March 29, 2011
Obama and the Birth Certificate -- Trumped Again
Henry Percy
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/03/obama_and_the_birth_certificat.html
American Thinker has been kind enough to post some 70 blogs of mine, but none has generated as much response as the one last Friday on Donald Trump's demand that the president release his birth certificate.
I never had much use for Trump in the past, but you've got to hand it to him in this case. Instead of hunkering down and apologizing when called a racist, he has doubled down on his bet and even released his own birth certificate. What? A Republican who refuses to grovel before Jesse Jackson when called a racist?
At the Huffington Post, the best they can do on the story is reference JournOlist member Ben Smith at Politico, who "refutes" Trump thus: "As I wrote earlier, an official copy of Obama's birth certificate -- the same thing Trump would have to prove his own birth -- has been available and online for more than three years." Hey, Rip Van Winkle, slept through the last three years have you? The Obamaites have been dragging that red herring across the trail ever since the campaign, but read slowly: "official birth certificate" is not the same as "certificate of live birth." I know, there's a big word there (gee, "certificate" has four syllables), but maybe you can study up on the matter before writing any more foolishness, Rip (sorry, Ben).
But wait, Ben Smith, the intrepid fact checker, in another post on the story informs us that what Trump released is a hospital certificate of birth, not an official birth certificate issued by a government entity, crowing that Trump has his own birth certificate problem. Deflection again: this story is about our president and his fitness to serve, while fanboy Smith takes the first opportunity to make it into a story about Trump.
The Obamaites will say Trump is a publicity hound. And a commenter on Smith's silly column calls Trump a "pompous, publicity seeking idiot." Oh my, not publicity seeking. Isn't that what politics is about, putting your name before the public day after day? As for pomposity, our friends on the left must be enthralled with Mr. Obama's every speech, nose in the air, chin thrust out, finger wagging as he admonishes us, "Let me be perfectly clear." OK, Mr. President, about that birth certificate: here's a chance for perfect clarity.
Henry Percy is the nom de guerre for a technical writer living in Arizona. He may be reached at saler.50d[at]gmail.com.
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::)
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::)
Keep rolling your eyes, the last thing you want with me on this is a real discussion on the details of this.
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Let's keep this real here... In a court of law, all of this conjecture and crap wouldn't hold up against the "certificate of live birth" and the images of the birth announcement... Your case would be dismissed immediately.
You must PROVE he was not born here... he does not have to prove he WAS.
You and I both know this 3333...
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Let's keep this real here... In a court of law, all of this conjecture and crap wouldn't hold up against the "certificate of live birth" and the images of the birth announcement... Your case would be dismissed immediately.
You must PROVE he was not born here... he does not have to prove he WAS.
You and I both know this 3333...
I'm not saying he was not born here. I'm saying he might not have been born here, but is definately hiding something he cant have revealed. It could be any of the folowing:
1. Evidence of his usage of false SS numbers. He has used 16 false ones so far.
2. Lists a different father.
3. Lists him as being a muslim
4. Lists him as being white
or some other items he cant reveal.
And we are not in court - we are in reality. No one with nothing to hide on something like this, especially a POTUS pays millions to conceal what can be revealed for $10.00
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I used to be the guy saying "Mods, don't move the birther stuff to the CT board - it's relevant".
Now? I dunno.
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I used to be the guy saying "Mods, don't move the birther stuff to the CT board - it's relevant".
Now? I dunno.
Yeah, we only have all the major news outlets, tv, The View, a potential POTUS candidate , all discussing it.
Its not a CT, Obama can end this whole ordeal for $10. There is a very good reason he wont or cant and common sense says no one spend shits loads of cash on lawyers to conceal what can be revealed for $10.
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I'm not saying he was not born here. I'm saying he might not have been born here, but is definately hiding something he cant have revealed. It could be any of the folowing:
1. Evidence of his usage of false SS numbers. He has used 16 false ones so far.
2. Lists a different father.
3. Lists him as being a muslim
4. Lists him as being white
or some other items he cant reveal.
And we are not in court - we are in reality. No one with nothing to hide on something like this, especially a POTUS pays millions to conceal what can be revealed for $10.00
What would a Birth Certificate from 1961 have to do with Social Security Numbers? They aren't listed on Birth Certificates, so I don't get that... Are you saying a pseudonym? They wouldn't have vetted that?
Who cares if his father was different... either way, if he's born in the US, then he's legally allowed to be President (which is what this whole thing is about right?)
Is there Religion on a Birth Certificate? Mine doesn't have one... It just shows where and my name... that's it. It doesn't have some religious denotion on it. Is Hawaii different than Virginia?
Who cares what color it lists him as? Color doesn't have anything to do with him legally being allowed to be President.
Isn't this ENTIRE thing about whether or not he's LEGALLY allowed to be President of the United States?
In absolutely NO scenario you just listed is he not LEGALLY allowed to be President unless he wasn't born on US soil, which as everyone in Hawaii's Vital Statistics office says he was, so what is it you're really worried about?
The dude can be President in all but 1 scenario you just listed (and everyone has said that scenario doesn't exist) and the rest of the scenarios are just ridiculous... So what are you getting at?
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Yeah, we only have all the major news outlets, tv, The View, a potential POTUS candidate , all discussing it.
I see.
911 CTs had tons of media coverage. Do they belong here?
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Keep rolling your eyes, the last thing you want with me on this is a real discussion on the details of this.
We've had one and you concluded with me that there's no facts to prove Bama wasn't born here. which makes you a CT loon.
And you are keeping up with you spamming of cut and paste.
So.....
::)
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Birthers haven't had that much media coverage and any how who is leading the birther charge?
You Birthers have NOTHING but speculation and ignorant 9/11 style arguments.
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Not true - its a complicated, matter, but he could be listed as a British national due to laws that existed at the time.
Additionally, when they moved to indonesia many think his family renounced Barry's citizenship to get him registered for school over there, and then forgot or never legalized him when they came back. Lolo Soetoro - Bama's mother other husband was Barry's stepfather and it unclear whether there was a formal adoption or not, but Obama used the name Barry Soetoro to register for school and other things.
The entire thing is very shady.
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We've had one and you concluded with me that there's no facts to prove Bama wasn't born here. which makes you a CT loon.
And you are keeping up with you spamming of cut and paste.
So.....
::)
I said his concealing his BC might because of a foreign birth, but that is not the only reason.
Ozmo - no disrespect - but you are fucking clueless on Obama's past. I have read on a ton on this and you have no idea how much shady shit went on with bama's parents, the step parents, thew communist mentors, the phoney SS numbers, the absent passports for barry's pakisatan travels, etc.
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Not true - its a complicated, matter, but he could be listed as a British national due to laws that existed at the time.
Additionally, when they moved to indonesia many think his family renounced Barry's citizenship to get him registered for school over there, and then forgot or never legalized him when they came back. Lolo Soetoro - Bama's mother other husband was Barry's stepfather and it unclear whether there was a formal adoption or not, but Obama used the name Barry Soetoro to register for school and other things.
The entire thing is very shady.
So how does his birth certificate rectify any of those things? You're talking about him have his citizenship renounced... Does the birth certificate say something about that? No.
You think his Birth Certificate would say he was listed as a British National? Even though his mother was an American which automatically makes him one too because of OUR laws right? So he'd still be a Natural Born Citizen of the US.
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I said his concealing his BC might because of a foreign birth, but that is not the only reason.
Ozmo - no disrespect - but you are fucking clueless on Obama's past. I have read on a ton on this and you have no idea how much shady shit went on with bama's parents, the step parents, thew communist mentors, the phoney SS numbers, the absent passports for barry's pakisatan travels, etc.
No worries,333333.
I am willing to bet that most of what you read is unsubstanciial spun garbage. If it's the way you paint it out to be they would have him up on charges already.
See the problem is 333333, you have allowed yourself to be brainwashed to the point hat you have lost all your objectivity and cannot tell fact from fiction and or are not able to effectively analyze what you read. That's why arguing with 911 truthers is the way it is.
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No worries,333333.
I am willing to bet that most of what you read is unsubstanciial spun garbage. If it's the way you paint it out to be they would have him up on charges already.
See the problem is 333333, you have allowed yourself to be brainwashed to the point hat you have lost all your objectivity and cannot tell fact from fiction and or are not able to effectively analyze what you read. That's why arguing with 911 truthers is the way it is.
Thank you!!!!!!..I am the only one who has been saying this.,.,I am glad someone with some common sense has recognized this as well..keep up the good work Ozmo
Also that wasn't Donald Trump's real birth certificate.....it was a hospital certificate..it wasn't given to him by NY state
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Idiot - he released the NYC on today in full and a copy is posted in this thread. Now, where is Bamas?
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Donald Trump calls for Abercrombie investigation
khon2.com ^ | March 28 2011 | khon2
"You know what I get a kick out of the governor of Hawaii says, 'Oh I remember when he was born 50 years ago.' I doubt it. I think this guy should be investigated. I doubt he remembers when Obama was born give me a break."
Governor Abercrombie had no comment on Trump's statement.
(Excerpt) Read more at khon2.com ...
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“State Attorney General David Louie told the governor he can’t disclose an individual’s birth documentation without a person’s consent, Abercrombie spokeswoman Donalyn Dela Cruz said.”
Trump needs to ask why Abercrombie can’t simply get Obama’s consent. If Obama’s jpg was legit, then there should be no problem releasing the original birth records. Plus, Abs says he was there when Obama was born and is an old family friend.
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What would a Birth Certificate from 1961 have to do with Social Security Numbers? They aren't listed on Birth Certificates, so I don't get that... Are you saying a pseudonym? They wouldn't have vetted that?
Who cares if his father was different... either way, if he's born in the US, then he's legally allowed to be President (which is what this whole thing is about right?)
Is there Religion on a Birth Certificate? Mine doesn't have one... It just shows where and my name... that's it. It doesn't have some religious denotion on it. Is Hawaii different than Virginia?
Who cares what color it lists him as? Color doesn't have anything to do with him legally being allowed to be President.
Isn't this ENTIRE thing about whether or not he's LEGALLY allowed to be President of the United States?
In absolutely NO scenario you just listed is he not LEGALLY allowed to be President unless he wasn't born on US soil, which as everyone in Hawaii's Vital Statistics office says he was, so what is it you're really worried about?
The dude can be President in all but 1 scenario you just listed (and everyone has said that scenario doesn't exist) and the rest of the scenarios are just ridiculous... So what are you getting at?
Not true - its a complicated, matter, but he could be listed as a British national due to laws that existed at the time.
Additionally, when they moved to indonesia many think his family renounced Barry's citizenship to get him registered for school over there, and then forgot or never legalized him when they came back. Lolo Soetoro - Bama's mother other husband was Barry's stepfather and it unclear whether there was a formal adoption or not, but Obama used the name Barry Soetoro to register for school and other things.
The entire thing is very shady.
So how does his birth certificate rectify any of those things? You're talking about him have his citizenship renounced... Does the birth certificate say something about that? No.
You think his Birth Certificate would say he was listed as a British National? Even though his mother was an American which automatically makes him one too because of OUR laws right? So he'd still be a Natural Born Citizen of the US.
Bumpdiggity Bump Bump.
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Ba bump bump
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Thank you!!!!!!..I am the only one who has been saying this.,.,I am glad someone with some common sense has recognized this as well..keep up the good work Ozmo
Also that wasn't Donald Trump's real birth certificate.....it was a hospital certificate..it wasn't given to him by NY state
i have been saying that for a year,.ask 3333
tell him 3333, i told you that you were full of shit since 09...remember when i told you that facts mean very little to you and you would blame a bad hand in poker on Obama
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You think his Birth Certificate would say he was listed as a British National? Even though his mother was an American which automatically makes him one too because of OUR laws right? So he'd still be a Natural Born Citizen of the US.
Makes sense to me. Wasn't his mom born in Kansas? That makes him an American citizen regardless of where he was born, no?
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Bumpdiggity Bump Bump.
nice one tu.....
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Makes sense to me. Wasn't his mom born in Kansas? That makes him an American citizen regardless of where he was born, no?
Wouldn't it come down to how " natural born citizen" is defined?
http://federalistblog.us/2008/11/natural-born_citizen_defined.html (http://federalistblog.us/2008/11/natural-born_citizen_defined.html)
Natural-Born Citizen Defined
One universal point most all early publicists agreed on was natural-born citizen must mean one who is a citizen by no act of law. If a person owes their citizenship to some act of law (naturalization for example), they cannot be considered a natural-born citizen. This leads us to defining natural-born citizen under the laws of nature - laws the founders recognized and embraced.
Under the laws of nature, every child born requires no act of law to establish the fact the child inherits through nature his/her father’s citizenship as well as his name (or even his property) through birth. This law of nature is also recognized by law of nations. Sen. Howard said the citizenship clause under the Fourteenth Amendment was by virtue of “natural law and national law.”
The advantages of Natural Law is competing allegiances between nations are not claimed, or at least with those nations whose custom is to not make citizens of other countries citizens without their consent. Any alternations or conflicts due to a child’s natural citizenship are strictly a creature of local municipal law. In the year 1866, the United States for the first time adopted a local municipal law under Sec. 1992 of U.S. Revised Statutes that read: “All persons born in the United States and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed, are declared to be citizens of the United States.”
Rep. John A. Bingham commenting on Section 1992 said it means “every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen.” (Cong. Globe, 39th, 1st Sess., 1291 (1866))
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Rep. John A. Bingham commenting on Section 1992 said it means “every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen.” (Cong. Globe, 39th, 1st Sess., 1291 (1866))
Bingham had asserted the same thing in 1862 as well:
Does the gentleman mean that any person, born within the limits of the Republic, and who has offended against no law, can rightfully be exiled from any State or from any rood of the Republic? Does the gentleman undertake to say that here, in the face of the provision in the Constitution, that persons born within the limits of the Republic, of parents who are not the subjects of any other sovereignty, are native-born citizens, whether they be black or white? There is not a textbook referred to in any court which does not recognise the principle that I assert. (Cong. Globe, 37th, 2nd Sess., 407 (1862))
Bingham subscribed to the same view as most everyone in Congress at the time that in order to be born a citizen of the United States one must be born within the allegiance of the Nation. Bingham had explained years earlier that to be born within the allegiance of the United States the parents, or more precisely, the father, must not owe allegiance to some other foreign sovereignty (remember the U.S. abandoned England’s “natural allegiance” doctrine). This of course, explains why emphasis of not owing allegiance to anyone else was the affect of being subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.
It should be noted this allegiance due under England’s common law and American law are of two different species. Under the common law one owed a personal allegiance to the King as an individual upon birth. Under the American system there was no individual ruler to owe a personal allegiance to.
The constitutional requirement for the President of the United States to be a natural-born citizen had one purpose according to St. George Tucker:
That provision in the constitution which requires that the president shall be a native-born citizen (unless he were a citizen of the United States when the constitution was adopted,) is a happy means of security against foreign influence, which, wherever it is capable of being exerted, is to he dreaded more than the plague. The admission of foreigners into our councils, consequently, cannot be too much guarded against; their total exclusion from a station to which foreign nations have been accustomed to, attach ideas of sovereign power, sacredness of character, and hereditary right, is a measure of the most consummate policy and wisdom. …The title of king, prince, emperor, or czar, without the smallest addition to his powers, would have rendered him a member of the fraternity of crowned heads: their common cause has more than once threatened the desolation of Europe. To have added a member to this sacred family in America, would have invited and perpetuated among us all the evils of Pandora’s Box.
Charles Pinckney in 1800 said the presidential eligibility clause was designed “to insure … attachment to the country.” President Washington warned a “passionate attachment of one nation for another, produces a variety of evils,” and goes on to say:
Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest, in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter, without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation, of privileges denied to others, which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions; by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained; and by exciting jealousy, ill- will, and a disposition to retaliate, in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld.
And it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens, (who devote themselves to the favorite nation,) facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country, without odium, sometimes even with popularity; gilding, with the appearance of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good, the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.
What better way to insure attachment to the country then to require the President to have inherited his American citizenship through his American father and not through a foreign father. Any child can be born anywhere in the country and removed by their father to be raised in his native country. The risks would be for the child to return in later life to reside in this country bringing with him foreign influences and intrigues, and thus, making such a citizen indistinguishable from a naturalized citizen.
Conclusion
Extending citizenship to non-citizens through birth based solely upon locality is nothing more than mere municipal law that has no extra-territorial effect as proven from the English practice of it. On the other hand, citizenship by descent through the father is natural law and is recognized by all nations (what nation doesn’t recognize citizenship of children born to their own citizens?). Thus, a natural-born citizen is one whose citizenship is recognized by law of nations rather than mere local recognition.
Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, James F. Wilson of Iowa, confirmed this in 1866: “We must depend on the general law relating to subjects and citizens recognized by all nations for a definition, and that must lead us to the conclusion that every person born in the United States is a natural-born citizen of such States, except that of children born on our soil to temporary sojourners or representatives of foreign Governments.”
When a child inherits the citizenship of their father they become a natural-born citizen of the nation their father belongs regardless of where they might be born. It should be pointed out that citizenship through descent of the father was recognized by U.S. Naturalization law whereby children became citizens themselves as soon as their father had become a naturalized citizen.
In a nation that has abandoned the English tradition of “perpetual allegiance” to the King upon birth for the principal of expatriation, the requirement of preexisting allegiance of the father can be the only method for a child to be born into the allegiance of the nation, and thus, a natural-born citizen.
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i have been saying that for a year,.ask 3333
tell him 3333, i told you that you were full of shit since 09...remember when i told you that facts mean very little to you and you would blame a bad hand in poker on Obama
You're right Option D..I forgot about you...my apologies :o
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Yeah, a few bad threads out of hundreds. My accuracy rate is still 99 percent.
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Yeah, a few bad threads out of hundreds. My accuracy rate is still 99 percent.
dude.. you just cut and paste other conservatives...big whoop
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Why are you clowns so sensitive on this topic? Remember bushs national guard record? That seemed fair play.
Why not this?
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Why are you clowns so sensitive on this topic? Remember bushs national guard record? That seemed fair play.
Why not this?
So now it's BUSH's FAULT?
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Just pointing out the double standards used to defend the messiah.
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Just pointing out the double standards used to defend the messiah.
I know, I was just being sarcastic ;D
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Makes sense to me. Wasn't his mom born in Kansas? That makes him an American citizen regardless of where he was born, no?
Yes... and as long as he was born on US soil, then he's legally allowed to be President of this great country.
That's all there is to it.
So unless you think his Birth Certificate does not exist because he wasn't born in Hawaii, then I don't understand all this hub bub.
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Yes... and as long as he was born on US soil, then he's legally allowed to be President of this great country.
That's all there is to it.
So unless you think his Birth Certificate does not exist because he wasn't born in Hawaii, then I don't understand all this hub bub.
No, what I'm asking is this: if his mother was an American citizen and gave birth to him in Kenya, isn't he still an American citizen?
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No, what I'm asking is this: if his mother was an American citizen and gave birth to him in Kenya, isn't he still an American citizen?
Yes... He is.
But he's not a natural born citizen... So that would be the only way under any of these circumstances where he couldn't be President.
But again, that is the ONLY reason, and let's be real, I'm quite certain that if he weren't legally allowed to be President, then he wouldn't be. Also, you know full well, that if there was some proof as to his birth in a foreign land, the Republicans would have been all over that in 2008 (as they should have been).
Plus, you're saying that the state of Hawaii and Illinois are conspiring against the laws of the United States just to get Obama elected... Officials from the top down who are both Republicans and Democrats.
That's really really REALLY unbelievable.
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Grandmother says she witnessed Kenyan born birth, Kenyan minister says obama was born there, Gadaffi says obama is a child of Africa, no hospital records at all, no long fom BC, etc
REASONABLE DOUBT -
IF THE GLOVE DON'T FIT - YOU MUST AQUIT!
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Grandmother says she witnessed Kenyan born birth, Kenyan minister says obama was born there, Gadaffi says obama is a child of Africa, no hospital records at all, no long fom BC, etc
REASONABLE DOUBT -
IF THE GLOVE DON'T FIT - YOU MUST AQUIT!
Again, that would be like putting 3 crackheads on the stand against about 30 cops... The cop's words would hold infinitely more value.
People from the vital statistics agency in Hawaii say he was born there... You believe Africans over Americans?
Since when?
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Again, that would be like putting 3 crackheads on the stand against about 30 cops... The cop's words would hold infinitely more value.
People from the vital statistics agency in Hawaii say he was born there... You believe Africans over Americans?
Since when?
Since when it suits his political alignment? :D
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Since when it suits his political alignment? :D
Obama does not deserve the benefit of the doubt anymore. Everything wih him is suspect.
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Grandmother says she witnessed Kenyan born birth, Kenyan minister says obama was born there, Gadaffi says obama is a child of Africa, no hospital records at all, no long fom BC, etc
REASONABLE DOUBT -
IF THE GLOVE DON'T FIT - YOU MUST AQUIT!
you've REALLY sunk really low when you use a general quote from Gadhafi to prove that Obama isn't a citizen..why not ask Gadhafi for proof like you do Obama???
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you've REALLY sunk really low when you use a general quote from Gadhafi to prove that Obama isn't a citizen..why not ask Gadhafi for proof like you do Obama???
Maybe Gadaffi has the long form BC?
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Obama does not deserve the benefit of the doubt anymore. Everything wih him is suspect.
None of that stuff is reasonable doubt dude... You're an attorney... You know that.
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No, what I'm asking is this: if his mother was an American citizen and gave birth to him in Kenya, isn't he still an American citizen?
No, at the time of Obama's birth, a 1952 law required a U.S. citizen married to an alien to have been physically present in the United States for 10 years, including five after reaching the age of 14, to transmit citizenship to foreign-born children. Obama's mother was 18 when he was born, one year too young to give him US citizenship.
1952 Immigration and Nationality Act Title3 Chapter1
http://www.scribd.com/doc/8693236/1952-Immigration-and-Nationality-Act-Title3-Chapter1
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No, at the time of Obama's birth, a 1952 law required a U.S. citizen married to an alien to have been physically present in the United States for 10 years, including five after reaching the age of 14, to transmit citizenship to foreign-born children. Obama's mother was 18 when he was born, one year too young to give him US citizenship.
1952 Immigration and Nationality Act Title3 Chapter1
http://www.scribd.com/doc/8693236/1952-Immigration-and-Nationality-Act-Title3-Chapter1
Which still has no bearing... To be President he had to be on US soil anyway. So again, I'm not quite sure where all this is going.
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No, at the time of Obama's birth, a 1952 law required a U.S. citizen married to an alien to have been physically present in the United States for 10 years, including five after reaching the age of 14, to transmit citizenship to foreign-born children. Obama's mother was 18 when he was born, one year too young to give him US citizenship.
1952 Immigration and Nationality Act Title3 Chapter1
http://www.scribd.com/doc/8693236/1952-Immigration-and-Nationality-Act-Title3-Chapter1
Ah so. Thanks very much. That answers my question.
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Which still has no bearing... To be President he had to be on US soil anyway. So again, I'm not quite sure where all this is going.
But the question was about citizenship, not eligibility. Let's not confuse the two issues.
It wouldn't matter if Obama had been born in the Lincoln bedroom, he was a dual citizen at birth (British/US) and ineligible to hold the Office of President. He is EXACTLY what the framers had in mind when they included the "natural born Citizen" clause.
Obama MAY have had US citizenship at birth, depending on where (and when, HI has only been a state since 1959 - 2 years before his supposed birth there - is he hiding when and not where?) he was born. Then there's the whole Indonesia thing
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But the question was about citizenship, not eligibility. Let's not confuse the two issues.
It wouldn't matter if Obama had been born in the Lincoln bedroom, he was a dual citizen at birth (British/US) and ineligible to hold the Office of President. He is EXACTLY what the framers had in mind when they included the "natural born Citizen" clause.
Obama MAY have had US citizenship at birth, depending on where (and when, HI has only been a state since 1959 - 2 years before his supposed birth there - is he hiding when and not where?) he was born. Then there's the whole Indonesia thing
so he wasnt born in hawaii?
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But the question was about citizenship, not eligibility. Let's not confuse the two issues.
It wouldn't matter if Obama had been born in the Lincoln bedroom, he was a dual citizen at birth (British/US) and ineligible to hold the Office of President. He is EXACTLY what the framers had in mind when they included the "natural born Citizen" clause.
Obama MAY have had US citizenship at birth, depending on where (and when, HI has only been a state since 1959 - 2 years before his supposed birth there - is he hiding when and not where?) he was born. Then there's the whole Indonesia thing
again don't you think the FBI has investigated all of this stuff already????...if Obama was ineligible to be president he would not have been certified to run....all candidates are vetted first by the FBI and background checks are done....
Come on guys ...give it up already..you are wasting your time with this nonsense
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But the question was about citizenship, not eligibility. Let's not confuse the two issues.
It wouldn't matter if Obama had been born in the Lincoln bedroom, he was a dual citizen at birth (British/US) and ineligible to hold the Office of President. He is EXACTLY what the framers had in mind when they included the "natural born Citizen" clause.
Obama MAY have had US citizenship at birth, depending on where (and when, HI has only been a state since 1959 - 2 years before his supposed birth there - is he hiding when and not where?) he was born. Then there's the whole Indonesia thing
Please post the link you copied this from... I am pretty sure I saw it elsewhere.
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Donald Trump is Proud to be a Birther...and so am I!
.Steven Krage on 03.30.11 at 7:41 PM | no comments | Share Facebook (1) Retweet (0) Digg (0) Stumble...
Watching Donald Trump on Bill O'Reilly's show today, I am convinced that Trump has what it takes to put his hat into the ring for the 2012 Presidential Election! Only recently has his name been thrown into the pile of possible Republican contenders of President to usurp Barack Obama's reign of terror, which was brought to a climax in his staggeringly condescending and over-simplified television address on the subject of the Libyan crisis.
But this isn't what this particular blog is about. This blog is about Trump's claim, which he first expressed on the clucking chicken-coop show that is know as The View, where he valiantly shouted, "I want to see his [Barack Obama's] birth certificate." Mr. Trump has recently thrown his hat into the ring and has become a "birther", which is a term given by the media to represent a certain faction of people who are fed up and are demanding that "President" Obama release his birth certificate.
Trump is absolutely adamant about the subject, and just a few minutes ago I saw him state his case on Bill O'Reilly's show. O'Reilly is NOT a birther. So it was a point of contention between O'Reilly and Trump. Trump stated the fact, and one that a lot of people thing, and that is the fact that since Obama hasn't released his birth certificate, there is something he is hiding on there. Trump says that the main thing might be his religion, which could be stated as being Muslim. Obviously that's not a crime, but it could mean a certain end for any of Obama's future political endeavors.
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I, speaking as someone who has kept their mouth shut about the whole birth certificate issue up until now, state the fact that I, along with Donald Trump and many many other true-blooded Republican/Tea-Partiers, am a Birther. I believe that Barack Obama is definitely hiding something.
If everything was in order, he would have opened those records from DAY ONE. But since he is playing 4-year-old games with us and is hiding it, there is something on those fateful papers that he doesn't want us to see.
I believe it may be religion, because that IS the most probable thing on there that could be a splattered bug on Obama's Presidential windshield. Either way, there is something that he is hiding.
And who knows! It may be something far more sinister than religion. Maybe the birth certificate doesn't exist at all! This may seem like a long-shot, but what Mr. Trump said in his interview with The View ladies is that he, Mr. Trump, has seen a lot of fraud in his life and this birth certificate that is floating around that got him into the presidency may have been forged!
I support that claim 100%. I believe that he falsely entered into the presidency with fake credentials and shoddy workmanship. But the cold hard facts are that we won't know until he releases those damn records!
Barack Obama is hiding something. Something cold. Something scary. Something even worse than can be found in the darkest of Stephen King novels. Could it be possible that our Commander-in-Chief is boldly lying to us? That is the worst outcome of all! I don't want to live in a country where our top leader doesn't speak a word of truth to the people who his country. I just don't. This birth certificate thing just opens up a whole can of worms that I don't even like to think about.
I can't believe more Americans aren't more adamant about this, like Donald Trump and I are. I wish every American, legally-born of course, would rise out of their seats and shout as one, "We want to see the birth certificate!" All of our voices together would shake this fidgety man into finally bringing forth the lies which he has hidden for so long!
I am a Birther and I'm proud to be one! WE WANT TO SEE THE BIRTH CERTIFICATE!
. To read more on the Birthers and our quest, go to http://obamareleaseyourrecords.blogspot.com/ and join the good fight! Be sure to comment on this blog and tell me what your thoughts on the matter are. Are you or are you not a Birther? What do you think Obama may be hiding from us?
Read more: http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/life-and-times-of-a-young-republican/2011/03/donald-trump-is-proud-to-be-a-birtherand-so-am-i.html#ixzz1I8nilahz
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Please post the link you copied this from... I am pretty sure I saw it elsewhere.
I didn't paste from anywhere, but I and many, MANY others have been making these points since mid-ish 2008.
So, if you meant that Obama was born a dual citizen, you can verify from his own website http://fightthesmears.com/articles/5/birthcertificate.html (http://fightthesmears.com/articles/5/birthcertificate.html)
On this page he cites Fact Check
"“When Barack Obama Jr. was born on Aug. 4,1961, in Honolulu, Kenya was a British colony, still part of the United Kingdom’s dwindling empire. As a Kenyan native, Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948. That same act governed the status of Obama Sr.‘s children."
If you meant Hawaii becoming a state
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii)
Admission to Union August 21, 1959 (50th)
This would make it really hard for Stanley Ann to be Mom, but who knows what may be on a BC if one does exist stating he was born in HI.
If you meant this is what framers had in mind - I'd have to really dig for some sources, but it is covered in the Federalist papers. Specifically correspondence with John Jay.
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Now i get why liberals are in such dispair and grieving.