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Getbig Main Boards => Politics and Political Issues Board => Topic started by: Bindare_Dundat on June 22, 2011, 05:54:50 PM
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Makes sense. But there are too many evangelicals in the Republican party to let this one slide.
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According to the clip, it's a bill to decriminalize marijuana on the federal level and let states decide how to regulate it. He actually made decent arguments in support of that concept.
His comments about heroin are a little simplistic. Because he asked a room full of people if they would start using heroin if it was legalized tomorrow, and nobody raised their hands, he thinks that supports his belief that legalizing heroin will not increase its use. I'd say you need a little more complex analysis than that.
He also said it's easier for a kid to get marijuana than alcohol. Really?
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I agree
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According to the clip, it's a bill to decriminalize marijuana on the federal level and let states decide how to regulate it. He actually made decent arguments in support of that concept.
His comments about heroin are a little simplistic. Because he asked a room full of people if they would start using heroin if it was legalized tomorrow, and nobody raised their hands, he thinks that supports his belief that legalizing heroin will not increase its use. I'd say you need a little more complex analysis than that.
He also said it's easier for a kid to get marijuana than alcohol. Really?
"Earlier this month the National Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse (CASA) issued the results of a survey conducted to get the latest information on teen drug use. The survey, conducted by QEV Analytics, reported that, for the first time ever, a higher percentage of teens find marijuana easier to buy than cigarettes and alcohol"
http://www.ecstasyaddiction.com/PressReleasePages/marijuanaeasiertoget.html
It probably varies depending on where you are.
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Probably both are equally easy to get for the most part.
At worst, legalizing drugs would probably increase usage minimally at first as those whose only reason not to try was fear of getting busted. Most people obviously ignore the law anyway and get high, so in the long run I don't think we'd see things get worse or better regarding how many people abuse it compared to today.
Maybe, attitudes towards addiction and how to deal with it would change for the better.
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Probably both are equally easy to get for the most part.
At worst, legalizing drugs would probably increase usage at first as those whose only reason not to try was fear of getting busted. Most people obviously ignore the law anyway and get high, so in the long run I don't think we'd see things get worse or better regarding how many people abuse it compared to today.
Maybe, attitudes towards addiciton and how to deal with it would change for the better.
what's scary is that law enforcement would no doubt turn their sights on something else to keep their budgets. Who knows what that'll be, there's a lot of laws that are silly and not enforced. Probably target obsenity heavy again and have prisons filled with people doing time for their toys lol...
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The problem with marijuana is not marijuana. It's all the associated things the drug addicts do to get it and what they do when on it.
Marijuana (like all drugs) is regulated because the law is too chicken shit to actually regulate the people that cause the problems.
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i diagree with RP on this one
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I dont think you can really compare Marihuana with Heroin, they are pretty different..
Like comparing mineral water to Vodka
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I look forward to toking in front of the white house soon!
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He also said it's easier for a kid to get marijuana than alcohol. Really?
I don't know how long ago you were a kid (no disrespect), but that's generally true. At least where I'm from.
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I don't know how long ago you were a kid (no disrespect), but that's generally true. At least where I'm from.
News to me, given how easy it is for a kid to get alcohol.
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way to go!
this will be entertaining to watch as it develops...
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News to me, given how easy it is for a kid to get alcohol.
yeah.. i think they are equally as easy
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way to go!
this will be entertaining to watch as it develops...
I doubt it develops.
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yeah.. i think they are equally as easy
I know it's all over the place (especially here), but just seems like it would be easier to get a product you can pull right off the shelf than one that is illegal. But I'll defer to you folks.
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The problem with marijuana is not marijuana. It's all the associated things the drug addicts do to get it and what they do when on it.
Marijuana (like all drugs) is regulated because the law is too chicken shit to actually regulate the people that cause the problems.
Like people will be sucking dick for weed, come on.
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i diagree with RP on this one
That's surprising. Do you have an issue with responsible adult use?
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I think it's due to the fact that you generally can't purchase alcohol anymore if you're under 21. Alcohol come in big containers, hard to keep on the down low.
All the Marijuana you need fits in a small zip lock bag, goes from pocket to pocket. Anyone interested probably knows a person, and can get it at the drop of a hat.
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He makes some good points, particularly the points about addiction and that 97 percent of people in prison over drug crimes are dealers, not users. Also cites evidence that contradicts the notion that it's easier (or just as easy) to obtain marijuana v. alcohol.
Why Barney Frank and Ron Paul are wrong on drug legalization
By William J. Bennett, CNN Contributor
June 30, 2011
Editor's note: William J. Bennett is the Washington fellow of the Claremont Institute. He was U.S. secretary of education from 1985 to 1988 and was director of the Office of National Drug Control Policy under President George H.W. Bush.
(CNN) -- From certain precincts on the left, notably Barney Frank, to certain precincts on the right, notably the editorial page of National Review, we are witnessing a new push to end the so-called war on drugs and legalize drug use, starting with marijuana. Indeed, Ron Paul, Barney Frank's co-sponsor in the latest legislative effort, said recently he would go so far as to legalize heroin.
It's a bad idea. My friends at National Review begin their case by stating the illegalization of drugs has "curtailed personal freedom, created a violent black market and filled our prisons." But the legalization of drugs, including marijuana, would exacerbate each of these problems.
Starting with the basics, keeping drugs illegal is one of the best ways to keep drugs out of the hands -- and brains -- of children. We know three things here: First, children who don't use drugs continually tell us one of the reasons they don't is precisely because they are illegal.
For example, since at least 1975, report after report has found that "perceptions of the risk and social disapproval of drug use correlate very closely with drug taking behavior." When those in the drug prevention community ask teens who don't use drugs why they don't, time and again, the answer comes back "because it's illegal." This, of course, explains why a greater percentage of teens abuse legal substances like tobacco and alcohol over illegal drugs such as marijuana -- even when they say marijuana is easily accessible.
Second, keeping drugs out of the hands of children is the best way to prevent drug addiction generally, as study after study has confirmed that if we keep a child drug free until age 21, the chances of use in adulthood are next to zero.
Third, we don't need to guess at hypothetical legalization schemes. Our experience with legally prescribed narcotics has already proven it, and we now have an epidemic. This, despite doing everything the theorists have asked, from oversight to regulation to prescription requirements.
Normalizing, de-stigmatizing, and legalizing illegal drugs lowers their price and increases their use. As a recent RAND study on California found, legalization of marijuana there would cut the price by as much as 80% and increase use from as little as 50% to as much as 100%. Just what California, just what our society, needs.
As for the current drug policies curtailing personal freedom, the question is: "Whose freedom?" The drug dealers', sure -- the drug consumers, no.
As any parent with a child addicted to drugs will explain, as any visit to a drug rehab center will convey, those caught in the web of addiction are anything but free. And it is not because of their incarceration or rehabilitation, it is because of the vicious cycle of dependency, waste and brain damage addiction and abuse cause.
Let us make no mistake about this, either: Marijuana is much more potent and causes much more damage than we used to know. Today's marijuana tests on average at more than 10% THC (the psychoactive ingredient). We are even seeing samples of more than 30% THC. This is compared to the relatively lower levels of THC most legalizing proponents were more familiar with in generations past (under 4% in the early 1980s, even lower in the 1960s).
Chronic adolescent marijuana use has been found to be associated with "poorer performance on thinking tasks, including slower psychomotor speed and poorer complex attention, verbal memory and planning ability." We are seeing study after study finding adolescent marijuana use responsible for "disrupted brain development" in teens. Worse, we are seeing more and more studies showing teen marijuana use linked to psychosis.
As for the high incarceration rates for simple marijuana use and possession, it is a myth. As government documentation actually shows, over 97% of sentencing on federal marijuana-related charges is for trafficking, less than 2% is for simple possession. Indeed, the only National Review authority with federal prosecutorial experience that I know of backs this point up: "Actual enforcement is targeted at big distributors. People who merely possess drugs for personal use well know they are substantially safe no matter what the statutes say."
We have had a fair amount of experience with legalization and decriminalization schemes. What are those communities now saying? Citizens are trying to put the genie back in the bottle, from Northern California (where residents have complained that medical marijuana has "spawned crime, drug cartels and teenage pot use"), to the Netherlands (where drug tourism, use by minors, and border trafficking has increased), to England (where apologies have been made for endorsing decriminalization in light of the subsequent growth of teen drug treatment needs), to Colorado (where easy access has increased demand, "made a mockery" of the legal system, and is increasingly endangering public safety).
We have an illegal drug abuse epidemic in this country and it has not been given enough attention. But the cultural messages, as much as the law, matter. When we unified on this, as we once did, drug use went down. When we let up, as we now have, use increases.
The libertarian experiment promoted as a novel theory by some will only make things worse. More legalization equals more damage, waste, crime and abuse. Not less. That is why it is no time to surrender.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/06/30/bennett.drug.legalization/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
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He keeps going on and on about adolescent use. Well no shit I don't condone kids getting baked either. I am only for adult use only in private areas and never while driving or work etc..
Now as far as nobody goes to Prison for personal use that may be true on the federal level but I know first hand there are plenty of people rotting in county jails over possession. Those who do not go to jail are sent to Drug court which is 110 times harder than probation. I estimate that I am $20,000 in the hole because of a simple possession all going to fines, lawyers, gas, treatment, counseling. So fuck this clown. The thing now is to put weed smokers in Drug court because by and large we are responsible people. This will make there success % go up for further funding. It is all about money and people keeping their jobs.
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He keeps going on and on about adolescent use. Well no shit I don't condone kids getting baked either. I am only for adult use only in private areas and never while driving or work etc..
Now as far as nobody goes to Prison for personal use that may be true on the federal level but I know first hand there are plenty of people rotting in county jails over possession. Those who do not go to jail are sent to Drug court which is 110 times harder than probation. I estimate that I am $20,000 in the hole because of a simple possession all going to fines, lawyers, gas, treatment, counseling. So fuck this clown. The thing now is to put weed smokers in Drug court because by and large we are responsible people. This will make there success % go up for further funding. It is all about money and people keeping their jobs.
Sorry to hear about your troubles.
He talks about adolescent use, because that's probably the biggest stumbling block to legalizing drugs. The data he references says the only thing standing between drug use by a number of kids is illegality. Remove that barrier, even if it's just for adults, and you'll likely see a dramatic increase in use, abuse, addiction, etc. involving kids.
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He also said it's easier for a kid to get marijuana than alcohol. Really?
Absolutely true... because alcohol is legal and regulated, kids can't just go get it.
No drug dealer checks ID.
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Absolutely true... because alcohol is legal and regulated, kids can't just go get it.
No drug dealer checks ID.
Alcohol is about as easy as soda for kids to get. All they need is an adult to buy it for them. Or an adult to have it available.
This part of Bennett's article talks about it:
For example, since at least 1975, report after report has found that "perceptions of the risk and social disapproval of drug use correlate very closely with drug taking behavior." When those in the drug prevention community ask teens who don't use drugs why they don't, time and again, the answer comes back "because it's illegal." This, of course, explains why a greater percentage of teens abuse legal substances like tobacco and alcohol over illegal drugs such as marijuana -- even when they say marijuana is easily accessible.
Second, keeping drugs out of the hands of children is the best way to prevent drug addiction generally, as study after study has confirmed that if we keep a child drug free until age 21, the chances of use in adulthood are next to zero.
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Absolutely true... because alcohol is legal and regulated, kids can't just go get it.
No drug dealer checks ID.
Exactly. I am 41 now and even when I was a teen it was much easier to get weed. Probably why I was never a big drinker and was content with smoking a few times a week.
Thanks for your support BB. There are many more like myself who are in my position. I have a great career in IT, never have been in trouble before, Was currently back in college to finish my masters and was on the Deans list. None of that mattered to the prosecutor. As for the swat team that came to my house to get their hands on an ounce of weed.. ::). I have always respected the cops until this incident. That is what got me in this position. I thought they were looking for a meth lab or something so I said sure come in and look around. I was dumb and naive to think they would do this to me over a bag of weed. It is all about the bust to further their career. One cop even told me that he knows I am not a scumbag. Well what the fuck...why arrest me then ya know. All of this came from an anonymous tip from a loser family member who I didn't help out financially. I have 6 months left of hell. Then I will be writing to anyone who matters about my experience and how wrong it was. As soon as I said I needed a lawyer they threatened to arrest my wife and break the door off the hinges and trash everything in the house and leave it that way. I had to make a decision to spare my wife.
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Alcohol is about as easy as soda for kids to get. All they need is an adult to buy it for them. Or an adult to have it available.
This part of Bennett's article talks about it:
For example, since at least 1975, report after report has found that "perceptions of the risk and social disapproval of drug use correlate very closely with drug taking behavior." When those in the drug prevention community ask teens who don't use drugs why they don't, time and again, the answer comes back "because it's illegal." This, of course, explains why a greater percentage of teens abuse legal substances like tobacco and alcohol over illegal drugs such as marijuana -- even when they say marijuana is easily accessible.
Second, keeping drugs out of the hands of children is the best way to prevent drug addiction generally, as study after study has confirmed that if we keep a child drug free until age 21, the chances of use in adulthood are next to zero.
That next to zero statement is bullshit.
Alcohol = Drug
Drug use at age 21 skyrockets because you are now legally allowed to use a drug called "alcohol".
These studies are simply unrealistic because you are asking kids if they are using an illegal substance, and of course they will generally say no because they don't want to get into trouble.
But hey... if it makes you feel better... you believe it.
When I was in school (and that was a long time ago) people were just as inclined to have weed in their car as beer... and I've been out of school a LONG time.
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Exactly. I am 41 now and even when I was a teen it was much easier to get weed. Probably why I was never a big drinker and was content with smoking a few times a week.
Thanks for your support BB. There are many more like myself who are in my position. I have a great career in IT, never have been in trouble before, Was currently back in college to finish my masters and was on the Deans list. None of that mattered to the prosecutor. As for the swat team that came to my house to get their hands on an ounce of weed.. ::). I have always respected the cops until this incident. That is what got me in this position. I thought they were looking for a meth lab or something so I said sure come in and look around. I was dumb and naive to think they would do this to me over a bag of weed. It is all about the bust to further their career. One cop even told me that he knows I am not a scumbag. Well what the fuck...why arrest me then ya know. All of this came from an anonymous tip from a loser family member who I didn't help out financially. I have 6 months left of hell. Then I will be writing to anyone who matters about my experience and how wrong it was. As soon as I said I needed a lawyer they threatened to arrest my wife and break the door off the hinges and trash everything in the house and leave it that way. I had to make a decision to spare my wife.
Sorry to hear this too man... This is bullshit.
A decent person being sent to jail and having to keep a local municipality afloat because they spend too much money and it's easier to take it from someone like you who has a life and something to lose.
Complete bullshit.
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That next to zero statement is bullshit.
Alcohol = Drug
Drug use at age 21 skyrockets because you are now legally allowed to use a drug called "alcohol".
These studies are simply unrealistic because you are asking kids if they are using an illegal substance, and of course they will generally say no because they don't want to get into trouble.
But hey... if it makes you feel better... you believe it.
When I was in school (and that was a long time ago) people were just as inclined to have weed in their car as beer... and I've been out of school a LONG time.
I haven't looked at the data, but I don't doubt it all. The same is true of cigarettes. If a person doesn't start smoking as a minor, they most likely will not start later in life. That's why Tobacco companies targeted kids for years. That's the only way they stay in business.
When I was in school, which was a long time ago, weed was all over the place, just like it is now, but so was alcohol.
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Sorry to hear about your troubles.
He talks about adolescent use, because that's probably the biggest stumbling block to legalizing drugs. The data he references says the only thing standing between drug use by a number of kids is illegality. Remove that barrier, even if it's just for adults, and you'll likely see a dramatic increase in use, abuse, addiction, etc. involving kids.
Lol yeah right. Out of touch.
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Lol yeah right. Out of touch.
Here is the quote, which makes sense to me:
For example, since at least 1975, report after report has found that "perceptions of the risk and social disapproval of drug use correlate very closely with drug taking behavior." When those in the drug prevention community ask teens who don't use drugs why they don't, time and again, the answer comes back "because it's illegal." This, of course, explains why a greater percentage of teens abuse legal substances like tobacco and alcohol over illegal drugs such as marijuana -- even when they say marijuana is easily accessible.
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What matters is, has the amount of kids using marijuana today increased compared to 30 years ago?
I think the answer is yes, so much for drug prohibition. It doesn't work.
Maybe I'm wrong but I don't have the time to find statistics on this.
He also doesn't mention if its the main reason why kids don't use drugs. He just states its an answer that's mentioned time and again but what about not doing drugs because they have a fear of being addicted? How about fear of parental discipline or dissapointment? Fear of the stereotypes they may have of drug users/dealres? etc... where does all that fit in comparatively speaking?
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What matters is, has the amount of kids using marijuana today increased compared to 30 years ago?
I think the answer is yes, so much for drug prohibition. It doesn't work.
Maybe I'm wrong but I don't have the time to find statistics on this.
He also doesn't mention if its the main reason why kids don't use drugs. He just states its an answer that's mentioned time and again but what about not doing drugs because they have a fear of being addicted? How about fear of parental discipline or dissapointment? Fear of the stereotypes they may have of drug users/dealres? etc... where does all that fit in comparatively speaking?
If drug use by kids has increased over the past thirty years, what will happen if they are legal? Wouldn't drug use increase even more?
I'm sure there are a variety of reasons why kids don't use. I'm not sure how to rank the various reasons, but illegality has to be pretty high on the list. Removing illegality would be like removing any other factor that contributes to non-use, like good parenting, etc.
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But for his age rp is by far the best in the race.
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If drug use by kids has increased over the past thirty years, what will happen if they are legal? Wouldn't drug use increase even more?
I'm sure there are a variety of reasons why kids don't use. I'm not sure how to rank the various reasons, but illegality has to be pretty high on the list. Removing illegality would be like removing any other factor that contributes to non-use, like good parenting, etc.
I stated earlier that yes, I think its usage would increase but so what?
What it comes down to it alcohol, many people die from its abuse and there are tons of underage users but people are still given a choice to use it. I think marijuana is in that same league of drug.
Some people will be able to use it in moderation and have a very normal life and some people will go down the road to more experimentation and possibly addiction. That's life. We cant help everyone but as long as the vast majority aren't abusing, who gives a shit? Place the same limits as we have on booze and lets be done with it. All this microscope viewing is ridiculous, there is no blanket answer and not everyone can be saved, that's the way its always been and that's the way it'll always be.
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I stated earlier that yes, I think its usage would increase but so what?
What it comes down to it alcohol, many people die from its abuse and there are tons of underage users but people are still given a choice to use it. I think marijuana is in that same league of drug.
Some people will be able to use it in moderation and have a very normal life and some people will go down the road to more experimentation and possibly addiction. That's life. We cant help everyone but as long as the vast majority aren't abusing, who gives a shit? Place the same limits as we have on booze and lets be done with it. All this microscope viewing is ridiculous, there is no blanket answer and not everyone can be saved, that's the way its always been and that's the way it'll always be.
It's not that simple for me. I care about how public policy affects kids.
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Giving kids felonies for use is not too good either.
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It's not that simple for me. I care about how public policy affects kids.
How does putting a kid into juvenile detention with REAL criminals affect kids who have a couple of dime bags?
You think it's better to lock them up?
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Giving kids felonies for use is not too good either.
According to Bennett's article, that doesn't happen too often.
As for the high incarceration rates for simple marijuana use and possession, it is a myth. As government documentation actually shows, over 97% of sentencing on federal marijuana-related charges is for trafficking, less than 2% is for simple possession. Indeed, the only National Review authority with federal prosecutorial experience that I know of backs this point up: "Actual enforcement is targeted at big distributors. People who merely possess drugs for personal use well know they are substantially safe no matter what the statutes say."
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I'm with RP on this - legalize it all. Education is more effective at reaching the kids then the law IMO.
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Education is more effective at reaching the kids then the law IMO.
Totally.
I believe parents that are completely open and honest about drugs other then just spitting out the same old "drugs are bad" shtick have much more success with anything having to do with kids/drugs.
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Totally.
I believe parents that are completely open and honest about drugs other then just spitting out the same old "drugs are bad" shtick have much more success with anything having to do with kids/drugs.
plus, anytime you stick the taboo label on anything, everyone wants it, especially kids. It's when you grow up with it just being another thing that it has no special interest, especially with kids. Freak out on a kid telling him what he/she can never do, then before you know it, you fucking talked them right into it. Nancy probably got more kids on drugs than anyone in history.
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I'm with RP on this - legalize it all. Education is more effective at reaching the kids then the law IMO.
+1
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White house fighting back :(
New DOJ Memo goes on a major DEA attack on medical marijuana
Edited on Fri Jul-01-11 06:03 AM by Ichingcarpenter
Obama Administration Overrides 2009 Ogden Memo, Declares Open Season on Pot Shops in States Where Medical Marijuana Is Legal
Mike Riggs | June 30, 2011
The Department of Justice sent out a memo Wednesday instructing the head of the Drug Enforcement Administration and leading officials in the U.S. Attorneys Office to treat medical marijuana shops as top priorities for prosecutors and drug investigators.
"Persons who are in the business of cultivating, selling or distributing marijuana, and those who knowingly facilitate such activities, are in violation of the Controlled Substances Act, regardless of state law," the memo reads. "Consistent with resource constraints and the discretion you may exercise in your district, such persons are subject to federal enforcement action, including potential prosecution. State laws or local ordinances are not a defense to civil or criminal enforcement of federal law with respect to such conduct, including enforcement of the CSA."
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More police state bullshit from Obama/Holder. Who the fuck voted for this crap?
They have more time to devote to this crap, suing Appollo 13 astronauts, than securing the border, going after fraud on wall street, etc.
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The Department of Justice sent out a memo Wednesday instructing the head of the Drug Enforcement Administration and leading officials in the U.S. Attorneys Office to treat medical marijuana shops as top priorities for prosecutors and drug investigators.
The people who make these decisions are not living in the real world
Maybe thats the problem? All politicians are all theory and no practise. Coming straight out of education with some degree and no real world knowledge what so ever
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According to Bennett's article, that doesn't happen too often.
As for the high incarceration rates for simple marijuana use and possession, it is a myth. As government documentation actually shows, over 97% of sentencing on federal marijuana-related charges is for trafficking, less than 2% is for simple possession. Indeed, the only National Review authority with federal prosecutorial experience that I know of backs this point up: "Actual enforcement is targeted at big distributors. People who merely possess drugs for personal use well know they are substantially safe no matter what the statutes say."
Look at that... Federal charges... Yes, they are for trafficking.
Guess what? The laws that lock up simple possessors are state and local laws... Doesn't make it any less bullshit.
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+1
Fuck off gimmick.
White house fighting back :(
New DOJ Memo goes on a major DEA attack on medical marijuana
Edited on Fri Jul-01-11 06:03 AM by Ichingcarpenter
Obama Administration Overrides 2009 Ogden Memo, Declares Open Season on Pot Shops in States Where Medical Marijuana Is Legal
Mike Riggs | June 30, 2011
The Department of Justice sent out a memo Wednesday instructing the head of the Drug Enforcement Administration and leading officials in the U.S. Attorneys Office to treat medical marijuana shops as top priorities for prosecutors and drug investigators.
"Persons who are in the business of cultivating, selling or distributing marijuana, and those who knowingly facilitate such activities, are in violation of the Controlled Substances Act, regardless of state law," the memo reads. "Consistent with resource constraints and the discretion you may exercise in your district, such persons are subject to federal enforcement action, including potential prosecution. State laws or local ordinances are not a defense to civil or criminal enforcement of federal law with respect to such conduct, including enforcement of the CSA."
That didn't last long. Wonder if the upcoming election has anything to do with this?
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plus, anytime you stick the taboo label on anything, everyone wants it, especially kids. It's when you grow up with it just being another thing that it has no special interest, especially with kids. Freak out on a kid telling him what he/she can never do, then before you know it, you fucking talked them right into it. Nancy probably got more kids on drugs than anyone in history.
Certain things are "taboo" and have to be treated as such. That doesn't mean you don't talk about it or educate your kid. But they do need to be taught about right and wrong. Things that are harmful to kids are not just "another thing."
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Look at that... Federal charges... Yes, they are for trafficking.
Guess what? The laws that lock up simple possessors are state and local laws... Doesn't make it any less bullshit.
Are you saying the state convictions and incarcerations are substantially different?
And really, at the end of the day, if people (including kids) want to stay out of prison, don't break the law.
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Certain things are "taboo" and have to be treated as such. That doesn't mean you don't talk about it or educate your kid. But they do need to be taught about right and wrong. Things that are harmful to kids are not just "another thing."
I'm curious to know if the only reason you hold any distinction, (I'm guessing you do), between booze and marijuana is because of the current law? I have this feeling you wouldnt mind if your children, (of legal drinking age) had a drink once in a while even though they risk becoming alcoholics regardless of its legal standing but the idea of them smoking a joint once in a while doesnt jive well with you.
Is that correct?
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Certain things are "taboo" and have to be treated as such. That doesn't mean you don't talk about it or educate your kid. But they do need to be taught about right and wrong. Things that are harmful to kids are not just "another thing."
I know certain things are taboo ::) I never said you shouldn't talk about it or educate your kids. I was talking about approaches that probably end up doing the opposite and talking kids into doing drugs. Drug campaigns have been criticised for doing this. It happens more than you think. Besides, it's our job to educate our kids on this, not the governments.
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"There is also a small amount of evidence that indicates the anti-drug campaign may have had the opposite effect for some teens. In one part of the analysis, teens who recalled seeing 12 or more anti-drug messages per month were actually more likely to start using marijuana than those who had seen fewer anti-drug messages per month."
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=6041092&page=2
Whatever approach I choose in educating my kids about drugs, I really don't need the government or others countering me and/or talking them into doing drugs.
"Washington, DC: Advertisements paid for by the federal government to deter teens from using drugs may actually be
encouraging some viewers to experiment with marijuana, according to statements made by White House Drug Czar John Walters this week.
Walters' admission came just days before the release of a federally-commissioned report announcing that the government's $1.8 billion dollar anti-drug ad campaign has failed to discourage teens from using drugs, and in some cases, may actually encourage use"
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"There is also a small amount of evidence that indicates the anti-drug campaign may have had the opposite effect for some teens. In one part of the analysis, teens who recalled seeing 12 or more anti-drug messages per month were actually more likely to start using marijuana than those who had seen fewer anti-drug messages per month."
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=6041092&page=2
Whatever approach I choose in educating my kids about drugs, I really don't need the government or others countering me and/or talking them into doing drugs.
A little off topic but I am reading the Reagan diaries and stated in his diary he was against the drug czar and drug war for the most part. Awesome book so far. Anyone claiming Reagan was a dunce in truly nuts. His diaries are really revealing just how smart he really was.
Said drug czar would make it worse.
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Are drugs (assuming it's a drug that doesn't adversely affect your health) bad if you use them responsibly, and don't become dependent?
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I know certain things are taboo ::) I never said you shouldn't talk about it or educate your kids. I was talking about approaches that probably end up doing the opposite and talking kids into doing drugs. Drug campaigns have been criticised for doing this. It happens more than you think. Besides, it's our job to educate our kids on this, not the governments.
Who said it's the government's job to educate kids about illegal drug use? ::)
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"There is also a small amount of evidence that indicates the anti-drug campaign may have had the opposite effect for some teens. In one part of the analysis, teens who recalled seeing 12 or more anti-drug messages per month were actually more likely to start using marijuana than those who had seen fewer anti-drug messages per month."
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=6041092&page=2
Whatever approach I choose in educating my kids about drugs, I really don't need the government or others countering me and/or talking them into doing drugs.
"Washington, DC: Advertisements paid for by the federal government to deter teens from using drugs may actually be
encouraging some viewers to experiment with marijuana, according to statements made by White House Drug Czar John Walters this week.
Walters' admission came just days before the release of a federally-commissioned report announcing that the government's $1.8 billion dollar anti-drug ad campaign has failed to discourage teens from using drugs, and in some cases, may actually encourage use"
This is absurd. So a small amount of evidence shows some kids use the more they get exposed to anti-drug messages? LOL. I wonder if a small number of kids who are exposed to condom commercials engage in unprotected sex? ::)
Who paid for this research? lol. They should have just sent me a check. I could have put the money to much better use.
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I'm curious to know if the only reason you hold any distinction, (I'm guessing you do), between booze and marijuana is because of the current law? I have this feeling you wouldnt mind if your children, (of legal drinking age) had a drink once in a while even though they risk becoming alcoholics regardless of its legal standing but the idea of them smoking a joint once in a while doesnt jive well with you.
Is that correct?
One of the main distinctions between alcohol and marijuana is one is legal and the other is not. Pretty big distinction. Another is the evidence showing the numerous health problems associated with normal marijuana use.
My kids will do whatever they want when they become adults, but I hope they don't drink. They'll have a healthier and safer life if they choose to stay off the booze. Not sure what that has to do with this discussion?
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Who said it's the government's job to educate kids about illegal drug use? ::)
did I say you said that jerkoff? Go play with your stupid eyerolls Mr. Always Right.
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This is absurd. So a small amount of evidence shows some kids use the more they get exposed to anti-drug messages? LOL. I wonder if a small number of kids who are exposed to condom commercials engage in unprotected sex? ::)
Who paid for this research? lol. They should have just sent me a check. I could have put the money to much better use.
the only thing absurd is as usual you.
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Was looking at the issue of access (marijuana v. alcohol). There is some support for those who say marijuana is easier (or just as easy) to get as alcohol:
An Issue of Accessibility
Both alcohol and marijuana are dangerous for adolescents, but which is easier for teens to get? Despite the fact that alcohol is a legal drug, often stored in parents' liquor cabinets and available for purchase if teens know someone over 21 years old, experts and adolescents say that marijuana is now easier for teens to get their hands on than alcohol.
http://www.adolescent-substance-abuse.com/substance-abuse/is-marijuana-or-alcohol-having-more-impact-on-your-teen.htm
On the other hand, alcohol use by teens apparently dwarfs marijuana use:
How Many Teens Use Marijuana?
Some people mistakenly believe that “everybody's doing it” and use that as an excuse to start using marijuana themselves. Well, they need to check the facts, because that’s just not true. According to a 2009 survey called Monitoring the Future, about 7 percent of 8th-graders, 16 percent of 10th-graders, and 21 percent of 12th-graders had used marijuana in the month before the survey. In fact, marijuana use declined from the late 1990s through 2007, with a decrease in past-year use of more than 20 percent in all three grades combined from 2000 to 2007. Unfortunately, this trend appears to be slowing, and marijuana use remains at unacceptably high levels, as the most commonly used illegal drug.
http://teens.drugabuse.gov/facts/facts_mj1.php
Compared with:
Just about everyone knows that the legal drinking age throughout the United States is 21. But according to the National Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse, almost 80% of high school students have tried alcohol.
http://kidshealth.org/teen/drug_alcohol/alcohol/alcohol.html
And this:
Alcohol access by minors
A survey of over 6000 teenagers revealed (1):
* Teenagers usually get their alcohol from persons 21 or older. The second most common source for high school students is someone else under age 21, and the second most common source for 18- to 20-year-olds is buying it from a store, bar or restaurant (despite the fact that such sales are against the law).
* In the 12th grade, boys were more likely than girls to buy alcohol from a store, bar or restaurant.
* The higher a teenager's weekly income, the more likely he/she will buy alcohol from a store, bar or restaurant.
* It is easy to get alcohol at a party and from siblings or others 21 or older.[12]
How easy is it for youth to buy alcohol?
Young females attempted to buy beer without an ID at liquor, grocery or convenience stores:
* In 47–52% of the attempts, beer was sold. (1, 2)
* Nearly 80% of all the stores sold beer to the buyers at least once in three attempts; nearly 25% sold beer all three times.(1)
When young females attempted to buy beer without an ID at bars or restaurants, 50% of the attempts resulted in a sale to the buyer.(2)
When young males and females attempted to buy beer without an ID at community festivals, 50% of the attempts resulted in a sale to the buyer.(3)[12]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_consumption_by_youth_in_the_United_States
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Some older threads about the dangers of marijuana use:
Marijuana Causes Cancer, California Regulators Say
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=286471.0
Study: Smoking Pot May Increase Risk of Testicular Cancer
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=263448.0
Study: Even Infrequent Use of Marijuana Increases Risk of Psychosis by 40 Percent
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=160887.0
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Hands down pot is easier to get than alcohol.
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Some older threads about the dangers of marijuana use:
Marijuana Causes Cancer, California Regulators Say
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=286471.0
Study: Smoking Pot May Increase Risk of Testicular Cancer
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=263448.0
Study: Even Infrequent Use of Marijuana Increases Risk of Psychosis by 40 Percent
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=160887.0
Some of these studies seem like "gee wiz" studies. The chance of psychosis is very small and using pot increases a small chance by 40%? There's a extremely good chance that when a different group of people are tested they will get a 40% or more swing in results regadless.
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Who said it's the government's job to educate kids about illegal drug use? ::)
part of the govt's role is to maintain the prodictivity and viability of 305 million americans.
So yes, religion/law for the moral compass and education for the productivity side of things. You can't have 50 million kids sitting on the couch playing halo Reach eating pizza. You need them entering the workforce.
Wait, you think the country just happens to function, and that the govt doesn't play any role in guiding overall productivity and behavior of the masses, eh?
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Best way to maintain viability is to end welfare food stamps etc.
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Best way to maintain viability is to end welfare food stamps etc.
dont forget giving more tax cuts to the rich.
cause we all know that giving them the cuts under bush prevented an economic collapse in 2008.
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Irrelevent. People will amazingly find work if they have to choose work or starvation.
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Irrelevent. People will amazingly find work if they have to choose work or starvation.
or they'll resort to crime. or begging. or shoot themselves. or go on shooting sprees.
I guess, in theory, you can just "make" 20% of the population go find work, and some % of them will. My belief is that some of them will get rowdy.
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If people want to smoke dope fine, just don't cry to me about them not finding work, needing welfare etc etc. If they die and starve, fine w me.
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If people want to smoke dope fine, just don't cry to me about them not finding work, needing welfare etc etc. If they die and starve, fine w me.
i dont care what people do to their bodies - legalize, that's cool - BUT if you drive a car stoned, your ass needs to be in prison for 5 years. period.
keep it that simple. Smoke all you want. And ride a bike.
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i dont care what people do to their bodies - legalize, that's cool - BUT if you drive a car stoned, your ass needs to be in prison for 5 years. period.
keep it that simple. Smoke all you want. And ride a bike.
Same with driving drunk?
I say yes.
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If people want to smoke dope fine, just don't cry to me about them not finding work, needing welfare etc etc. If they die and starve, fine w me.
I would bet the percentage of people who smoke pot and are employed is close to the percentage of people who are out of work and not employed .
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If drug use by kids has increased over the past thirty years, what will happen if they are legal? Wouldn't drug use increase even more?
I am fairly sure that if weed is legalized it won't be legal for people under the age of 21 to buy, carry or use it.
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Hands down pot is easier to get than alcohol.
If that is true, why do you think (according to some studies) that 80 percent of kids try alcohol, but only 21 percent try marijuana?
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Some of these studies seem like "gee wiz" studies. The chance of psychosis is very small and using pot increases a small chance by 40%? There's a extremely good chance that when a different group of people are tested they will get a 40% or more swing in results regadless.
I don't think the studies conclusively prove anything. I do think they tend to dispel the notion that marijuana is harmless.
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part of the govt's role is to maintain the prodictivity and viability of 305 million americans.
So yes, religion/law for the moral compass and education for the productivity side of things. You can't have 50 million kids sitting on the couch playing halo Reach eating pizza. You need them entering the workforce.
Wait, you think the country just happens to function, and that the govt doesn't play any role in guiding overall productivity and behavior of the masses, eh?
What? ???
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I am fairly sure that if weed is legalized it won't be legal for people under the age of 21 to buy, carry or use it.
Probably, but if you look at the fact 80 percent of kids may have tried alcohol, as opposed to 21 percent for marijuana, wouldn't the legalization of marijuana lead to higher use by minors?
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I don't think the studies conclusively prove anything. I do think they tend to dispel the notion that marijuana is harmless.
If its within the realm of a natural frequency how could it be anymore harmful than things that are marginally harmful at best? For example, drinking a beer a day, eating white bread once or twice per week, ice cream, Liberalism ( :D), etc.
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Same with driving drunk?
I say yes.
definitely!!!!
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Probably, but if you look at the fact 80 percent of kids may have tried alcohol, as opposed to 21 percent for marijuana, wouldn't the legalization of marijuana lead to higher use by minors?
that study would certianly support your assertion. However, this study weakens it:
WASHINGTON — Alcohol and marijuana use among teens is on the rise, ending a decade-long decline, a study being released Tuesday found.
"I'm a little worried that we may be seeing the leading edge of a trend here," said Sean Clarkin, director of strategy at The Partnership for a Drug-Free America, which was releasing the study. "Historically, you do see the increase in recreational drugs before you see increases in some of the harder drugs."
The annual survey found the number of teens in grades 9 through 12 who reported drinking alcohol in the last month rose 11 percent last year, with 39 percent — about 6.5 million teens — reporting alcohol use. That's up from 35 percent, or about 5.8 million teens, in 2008.
For pot, 25 percent of teens reported smoking marijuana in the last month, up from 19 percent.
Until last year, those measures for pot and alcohol use had been on a steady decline since 1998, when use hovered around 50 percent of teens for alcohol and 27 percent for pot.
The study also found use of the party drug Ecstasy on the rise. Six percent of teens surveyed said they used Ecstasy in the past month, compared with 4 percent in 2008.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,587708,00.html (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,587708,00.html)
I think one of the things to consider is possibly that "trying alcohol" many times is a result of the parents letting their kids have a taste of beer.
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If its within the realm of a natural frequency how could it be anymore harmful than things that are marginally harmful at best? For example, drinking a beer a day, eating white bread once or twice per week, ice cream, Liberalism ( :D), etc.
Are there studies showing those things in those quantities are harmful? (Except for liberalism, which is clearly a mental disorder.) :)
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that study would certianly support your assertion. However, this study weakens it:
WASHINGTON — Alcohol and marijuana use among teens is on the rise, ending a decade-long decline, a study being released Tuesday found.
"I'm a little worried that we may be seeing the leading edge of a trend here," said Sean Clarkin, director of strategy at The Partnership for a Drug-Free America, which was releasing the study. "Historically, you do see the increase in recreational drugs before you see increases in some of the harder drugs."
The annual survey found the number of teens in grades 9 through 12 who reported drinking alcohol in the last month rose 11 percent last year, with 39 percent — about 6.5 million teens — reporting alcohol use. That's up from 35 percent, or about 5.8 million teens, in 2008.
For pot, 25 percent of teens reported smoking marijuana in the last month, up from 19 percent.
Until last year, those measures for pot and alcohol use had been on a steady decline since 1998, when use hovered around 50 percent of teens for alcohol and 27 percent for pot.
The study also found use of the party drug Ecstasy on the rise. Six percent of teens surveyed said they used Ecstasy in the past month, compared with 4 percent in 2008.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,587708,00.html (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,587708,00.html)
I think one of the things to consider is possibly that "trying alcohol" many times is a result of the parents letting their kids have a taste of beer.
This study is a little different, because it talks about regular use. And even this study shows more teens drink than use alcohol.
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Are there studies showing those things in those quantities are harmful? (Except for liberalism, which is clearly a mental disorder.) :)
Don't know, maybe. What I am getting at is, many things can be proven to be literally harmful however, in many cases they are just slightly harmful to the point of inconsequence.
Just googled: white bread harmful effects. Lots of links.
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This study is a little different, because it talks about regular use. And even this study shows more teens drink than use alcohol.
Yep, but I really think some of it is from parents. I think if pot was legal it would be held in the same regard as hard liquour becuase of the strength of its impact vs just having a beer and therefore parents wouldn't readily let their children try some as I hope they wouldn't with hard liquour.
I wonder if there is a study showing hard alcohol vs beer vs pot with teens, also differentiating whether they got it from their parents or not.
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Don't know, maybe. What I am getting at is, many things can be proven to be literally harmful however, in many cases they are just slightly harmful to the point of inconsequence.
Just googled: white bread harmful effects. Lots of links.
I agree. There are probably a plethora of things that, if "studied," could produce some evidence of harmful side-effects.
That said, I do think these studies do tend to show that marijuana isn't harmless. I think that's an important factor if legalization of marijuana will lead increased use by kids.
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I agree. There are probably a plethora of things that, if "studied," could produce some evidence of harmful side-effects.
That said, I do think these studies do tend to show that marijuana isn't harmless. I think that's an important factor if legalization of marijuana will lead increased use by kids.
Yeah, regardless of which study they do seem to indicate a potential for increased use.
There also might be many more angle to this too.
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Yep, but I really think some of it is from parents. I think if pot was legal it would be held in the same regard as hard liquour becuase of the strength of its impact vs just having a beer and therefore parents wouldn't readily let their children try some as I hope they would they would with hard liquour.
I wonder if there is a study showing hard alcohol vs beer vs pot with teens, also differentiating whether they got it from their parents or not.
I agree some of it is from parents. I doubt that's where most of it comes from.
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I agree some of it is from parents. I doubt that's where most of it comes from.
Sounds logical, but I am not so sure because the 80% figure is from teens that have "tried" alcohol.
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I don't think the studies conclusively prove anything. I do think they tend to dispel the notion that marijuana is harmless.
who said it was harmless? ::) Most drugs can be abused and become dangerous including a great deal of shit pushed by the big pharmaceuticals. That's kind of a big no shit there buddy. Hell, just look at a small little thing like sugar, it isn't even a drug and it probably causes more damage to people than pot ever will.
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I agree. There are probably a plethora of things that, if "studied," could produce some evidence of harmful side-effects.
i believe excessive studies deliver harmful side effects.
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Most Americans just abuse food...
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Most Americans just abuse food...
BB supports the criminalization of food ;D
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No - that would be michelle obama and her flash mob of nanny state commies at the usda, fda, etc.
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No - that would be michelle obama and her flash mob of nanny state commies at the usda, fda, etc.
bb approved :D
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Most Americans just abuse food...
Truth. :-\
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Gary Johnson: Face reality, legalize pot
By Gary Johnson, Special to CNN
July 7, 2011
(CNN) -- In 2002, I became aware of a woman who had already served more than six years of a 25-year prison sentence. Her crime? She was addicted to codeine, and she had fraudulently written herself more than 100 prescriptions for Tylenol III.
It seemed to me that this woman had already served far too much time in prison -- in fact, more than a person would likely serve if convicted of second-degree murder -- so I used my authority as governor of New Mexico to release her.
This sort of real-life example might have been difficult to envision 40 years ago, when President Richard Nixon publicly declared his intention to wage "a new, all-out offensive" against drugs. Back then, many Americans believed that tougher enforcement of drug laws would put an end to drug abuse in the United States once and for all.
But some, even within his own party, thought Nixon was going too far by involving the federal government in personal, private behavior. Raymond Shafer, for example, was the former Republican governor of Pennsylvania and Nixon's choice to lead his handpicked National Commission on Marijuana and Drug Abuse. Composed almost entirely of anti-drug conservatives, this commission was expected to issue a report supporting Nixon's new policies.
However, that isn't what happened. When the commission released its report in 1972, it recommended, in particular, against the criminalization of marijuana, arguing as follows: "The criminal law is too harsh a tool to apply to personal possession even in the effort to discourage use... the actual and potential harm of use of the drug is not great enough to justify intrusion of the law into private behavior, a step which our society takes only with the greatest reluctance."
This report received little media attention, and unfortunately, it had no impact on public policy. By the mid-1980s, virtually 100% of elected politicians from both parties supported the war on drugs in its entirety. Intellectual arguments against prohibition, however, did not die with the Shafer Commission.
William F. Buckley and Milton Friedman, two of the most respected conservative intellectuals of the late 20th century, were among the drug war's high-profile critics. These great thinkers did not argue that recreational drug use should be celebrated -- far from it! Instead, they argued that the prohibition of drugs was causing far greater harm to society than drug abuse itself. And they were right.
Bennett: Legalizing drugs would be a mistake
When I ran for governor of New Mexico in 1994, I promised to bring a common-sense business approach to government. Everything was going to be a cost-benefit analysis -- how much of taxpayers' money are we spending, and what are we getting for the money we spend?
As governor, I was astonished to learn that half of what we were spending on law enforcement, courts and prisons was drug-related, and yet illegal drugs were cheaper, stronger and more available than ever. After further study, it became obvious to me that the drug war had created a lucrative black market and was enriching and empowering violent gangs and cartels. In many ways, it was like alcohol prohibition all over again, with similarly disastrous results.
I decided I simply couldn't allow the status quo to continue unchallenged, so in 1999 I became an advocate for legalizing marijuana and adopting harm reduction strategies for dealing with abuse of harder drugs (including prescriptions). I've been making these arguments ever since, and in recent months they have been resonating more strongly than ever.
The drug reform movement got a big boost last month when an international commission released a report criticizing the war on drugs. The Global Commission on Drug Policy was a 19-member commission that included Kofi Annan, a former U.N. secretary general; George Shultz, President Ronald Reagan's secretary of state; and Paul Volcker, a former chairman of the Federal Reserve.
Drug cartels, organized crime won the War on Drugs
The report's conclusions are clearly stated: "The global war on drugs has failed, with devastating consequences for individuals and societies around the world. Fifty years after the initiation of the U.N. Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs, and 40 years after President Nixon launched the U.S. government's war on drugs, fundamental reforms in national and global drug control policies are urgently needed."
Study these issues and I bet you'll agree that the Global Commission on Drug Policy is right. The Department of Justice reported that, in 2008, 2.3 million people were in our country's jails and prisons. Yet it is clearer than ever that the worldwide supply of drugs can never be wiped out -- no matter how strongly prohibitions are enforced.
If Republicans are truly serious when they talk about liberty and fiscal responsibility, and if they truly do their homework on the drug war, many will soon join me in my call for rational drug policy reform in the United States.
The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Gary Johnson.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/07/07/johnson.legalize.pot/index.html?hpt=hp_t2