Getbig.com: American Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure
Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Steroids Info & Hardcore => Topic started by: nosleep on December 03, 2011, 09:32:53 AM
-
BROīS SOMEONE MIND FILLING ME IN.
WE ALL KNOW TEST 300MG IS MINIMUM, EQ 600MG MINIMUM, TREN ACE IS LIKE 200MG MINIMUM, ETC....WHATīS DECAS ROUND 350-400?
IF 750MG WAS UR CYCLE, WOULD YOU GO 375MG TEST, 375MG DECA OR 500MG DECA, 250MG TEST OR SOME OTHER COMBO LIKE 450 DECA, 300 TEST OR 450 TEST, 300 DECA?
AND WHATS THE HIGHEST DOSE DECA UD EVER DO, OR HAVE EVER DONE???
-
Good question I still haven't tried them.
-
Real deca (Norma) you can get away with 300mg a week and see some decent results for joint relief and muscle building, NPP 300mg a week works pretty damn good as well. NPP you hold less water and it definitely pushes the muscles making you look fuller and round. (I personally think even more than deca) Depending your goals and what your current weight and experience is something like 750mg of test and maybe 300mg of deca would work great. Considering everything you have is real of coarse.
-
even though NPP is a shorter acting hormone the ester attached to it is still very heavy and both npp and deca have about the same amount of nandrolone in them, but due to the faster onset and clearance npp will cause a higher initial peak in nandrolone blood plasma levels compared to deca which has to build up over awhile (you can frontload though).
trt dosages of deca-durabolin is like 150mg, 200mg at the very most. nandrolone is pretty equivalent in strength to test, but the ester attached to nandrolone is a bit larger so you have less hormone per ml injected than with test-e or test-p. so bodybuilding dosages of deca would be pretty close to test, i'd say 400 is minimum i'd run to try to grow off it, but i'd run more just because i like heavy dosages.
i've ran 1.5gr as the most for deca, didn't have issues with the deca but i did with the test i was running alongside it. deca itself gives me a weird type of gyno feeling in my nipples, no amount of aromasin or letrozole will fix it, had to use nolva to get rid of the sensation. tren does the same to me, but as far as i know it didn't give any gyno.
-
Real deca (Norma) you can get away with 300mg a week and see some decent results for joint relief and muscle building, NPP 300mg a week works pretty damn good as well. NPP you hold less water and it definitely pushes the muscles making you look fuller and round. (I personally think even more than deca) Depending your goals and what your current weight and experience is something like 750mg of test and maybe 300mg of deca would work great. Considering everything you have is real of coarse.
WONT BE NORMA, OR HG. ITīD BE TOP CHEF DECA OR NPP.
YOU THINK 450 TEST, 300 DECA IS SUFFICIENT? TRYING TO KEEP IT IN THE 750 RANGE....GONNA GO 500, 750, 1000, 1250, 1500 THEN GH IT AT A GRAM...BUILD IT UP.
@ MAKAVELI....GREAT CONTRIBUTION.
@ AESTHETICS...U SAYING THE TEST HURT U WHILE ON DECA?
-
even though NPP is a shorter acting hormone the ester attached to it is still very heavy and both npp and deca have about the same amount of nandrolone in them, but due to the faster onset and clearance npp will cause a higher initial peak in nandrolone blood plasma levels compared to deca which has to build up over awhile (you can frontload though).
trt dosages of deca-durabolin is like 150mg, 200mg at the very most. nandrolone is pretty equivalent in strength to test, but the ester attached to nandrolone is a bit larger so you have less hormone per ml injected than with test-e or test-p. so bodybuilding dosages of deca would be pretty close to test, i'd say 400 is minimum i'd run to try to grow off it, but i'd run more just because i like heavy dosages.
i've ran 1.5gr as the most for deca, didn't have issues with the deca but i did with the test i was running alongside it. deca itself gives me a weird type of gyno feeling in my nipples, no amount of aromasin or letrozole will fix it, had to use nolva to get rid of the sensation. tren does the same to me, but as far as i know it didn't give any gyno.
I read somewhere that progesterone induced gyno will actually cause one to lactate instead of growing the tissue like estrogen would. :-\
-
WONT BE NORMA, OR HG. ITīD BE TOP CHEF DECA OR NPP.
YOU THINK 450 TEST, 300 DECA IS SUFFICIENT? TRYING TO KEEP IT IN THE 750 RANGE....GONNA GO 500, 750, 1000, 1250, 1500 THEN GH IT AT A GRAM...BUILD IT UP.
@ MAKAVELI....GREAT CONTRIBUTION.
@ AESTHETICS...U SAYING THE TEST HURT U WHILE ON DECA?
i ran real high dose test, i can't handle test over 1.5gr, around 2g i feel REAL bad all the time. no energy, no motivation, feels like my heart is dying. also, test makes me lose hair like nothing else, so i hate test.
depends on how you react to test bro, and yeah, you'll grow off good quality test and deca at 750/wk. don't think it makes a difference if you taper it up versus just hitting high dosage right away because initial gains are from the increase of intercellular water and higher androgens levels in your blood causing your muscle fibers to contract more effectively, which is why you get the plateau off the dosage relatively quickly, it doesn't mean your actual muscle fibers aren't still growing at that dosage.
you know yourself if you run higher dosages you'll get bigger faster, you actually increase the amount of androgen receptors the more hormones you run so you can't actually hit a real plateau off of a dosage until you hit your body's maximum size for that hormone level, which depends on how well of a responder you are. keeping the dosages low is just for health and side effect reasons, as the higher you go with dosage the less benefit you get while the worse the sides are, under 1 gram is the best ratio of benefits to sides, 2 grams is not too bad but 3 grams becomes rough.
-
I read somewhere that progesterone induced gyno will actually cause one to lactate instead of growing the tissue like estrogen would. :-\
i have a good friend who had leaky nipples from just 700 tren/wk by itself
prolactin causes it mostly, and growth hormone increases prolactin levels. but you can lower prolactin levels with cabergoline or pramiplexe. letrozole works well for stopping tren sides.
-
I DO NOT WANT TO GO BALLS DEEP, CAUSE ID O NOT KNOW HOW DECA WILL AFFECT MY LIBIDO AND I ALREADY KNOW TEST MAKES ME TOO HAIRY AND MAKES HAIR FALL OFF MY HEAD AT JUST 500MG.
PLUS, IVE RESPONDED DAMN WELL OFF OF LOWER DOSAGE..ONLY REASON WHY I THINK OTHERS HAVENT IS BECAUSE MY GEAR IS LEGIT.
-
i have a good friend who had leaky nipples from just 700 tren/wk by itself
prolactin causes it mostly, and growth hormone increases prolactin levels. but you can lower prolactin levels with cabergoline or pramiplexe. letrozole works well for stopping tren sides.
To me it seems like it would be easier to deal with cause once you stopped, lowered the dose, or throw in caber/prami you'd go back to normal right??
I mean there wouldn't be any residual effects like with estrogen gyno would there?
-
I DO NOT WANT TO GO BALLS DEEP, CAUSE ID O NOT KNOW HOW DECA WILL AFFECT MY LIBIDO AND I ALREADY KNOW TEST MAKES ME TOO HAIRY AND MAKES HAIR FALL OFF MY HEAD AT JUST 500MG.
PLUS, IVE RESPONDED DAMN WELL OFF OF LOWER DOSAGE..ONLY REASON WHY I THINK OTHERS HAVENT IS BECAUSE MY GEAR IS LEGIT.
yeah, i agree. you don't need high dosages to grow, it's not a necessity until you get to your genetic max and then HGH and slin will be what makes you grow at that point anyways. but some people, like me ( ;D) are just impatient and like high dosages.
if you want to see how you react to just nandrolone, run some npp by itself for a week or 2 and see how you feel. if you get libido issues (not everyone does) you can add a little test-p and see how you feel. everyone responds and reacts differently to different compounds, you just have to play around with them and experiment, which is usually best done with 1 compound at a time that has a short ester. that's how i did it and would recommend it anyways, some times adding compounds together gives weird sides like deca + tren.
if you want to keep your hair, and not grow anymore bodyhair then i'd run deca as the base, keep deca dose high and a low dose test according to how well you feel. also, you can run d-bol in place of the test too since d-bol is like oral test but the problem with d-bol is you get some shitty cramping and awful pumps. if you run eq and d-bol together you can barely work biceps because your pump will be so bad you can't close your hands to grip a dumb bell.
-
To me it seems like it would be easier to deal with cause once you stopped, lowered the dose, or throw in caber/prami you'd go back to normal right??
I mean there wouldn't be any residual effects like with estrogen gyno would there?
LOSING THE GAINS THEN.
@ AESTHETICS....YA 450 OR 500 DECA OR NPP, 250 OR 300 TEST IT IS BUT AWAITING GH15S WORD....DECA IS MORE AFFORDABLE BUT I AM CURIOUS ABOUT NPP, MAY DO A MIX.
-
To me it seems like it would be easier to deal with cause once you stopped, lowered the dose, or throw in caber/prami you'd go back to normal right??
I mean there wouldn't be any residual effects like with estrogen gyno would there?
i think it's permanent once you grow gyno and let it set in. there's a small window after your breast tissue enlarges where you can zap it with letro or nolva and it will shrink back down. but, with progestin and prolactin gyno effects, any estrogen will vastly increase the effects of it, which is why letro works real well to diminish progestin and prolactin sides. masteron is pretty effective at stopping gyno sides too because it's so androgenic it will cancel out the effects of estrogen, kind of like nolva.
-
LOSING THE GAINS THEN.
@ AESTHETICS....YA 450 OR 500 DECA OR NPP, 250 OR 300 TEST IT IS BUT AWAITING GH15S WORD....DECA IS MORE AFFORDABLE BUT I AM CURIOUS ABOUT NPP, MAY DO A MIX.
i'd strongly suggest you get some npp first, and run it by itself for 2 weeks to see how you feel, run it at 400/week, or 600/wk for 2 weeks and see how you feel at those dosages with nothing else. that way you know how you'll respond to deca because deca has a 11 day half life, takes a very, very long time to kick in and if you don't like it, then it also takes a long time to leave the body. that's my advice any ways. if you do well on nandrolone then yeah, run nandrolone-decaonoate, frontload that shit first and second week or run npp first and second week along with the deca so it kicks in right away.
-
IM ALWAYS GONNA BE ON 250MG TEST..SO ILL ADD THE NPP TO IT.
-
i think it's permanent once you grow gyno and let it set in. there's a small window after your breast tissue enlarges where you can zap it with letro or nolva and it will shrink back down. but, with progestin and prolactin gyno effects, any estrogen will vastly increase the effects of it, which is why letro works real well to diminish progestin and prolactin sides. masteron is pretty effective at stopping gyno sides too because it's so androgenic it will cancel out the effects of estrogen, kind of like nolva.
Hypothetical question here...lets say that you're just using deca in large doses. Do you think that one would see tissue growth? Would there be enough estrogen to induce growth or would you just get milky tits? Or does progestin and prolactin not need estrogen to be present in order to grow moobs ?
-
Hypothetical question here...lets say that you're just using deca in large doses. Do you think that one would see tissue growth? Would there be enough estrogen to induce growth or would you just get milky tits? Or does progestin and prolactin not need estrogen to be present in order to grow moobs ?
i don't know, it's very dependent on the person. people react so differently to progestins it's like night and day for different people with regard to physiological and psychological sides. some people go flipping nuts if they run tren, myself i feel and think much better and my libido stays intact while others are the complete opposite.
people even can get specific but different 19-nor sides from either deca or tren but not both, even though both are 19-nors. tren and deca are really inexplicable, i wish i knew why or how they cause such different reactions in people but i don't and there's been tons of debates ongoing for years on why they do so. i believe personally it's because they can bind to progesterone receptors and activate the receptor but a lot of smart people disagree with it. really don't know, so to answer your question it is user dependent and you may or may not, that's my best answer.
-
These drugs are really unpredictable aren't they. EveryBODY is different and its impossible to tell how one person will react to a certain compound till he/she actually tries it on themselves. I've even heard of people not responding to anti e's like adex and nolva and still get gyno from just test. Then you start to think if you're ingesting what you think you are and that brings with it another issue.
Another thing I've seen from reading the boards is that sometimes people react differently to a certain compound. What I mean is that maybe that they've used dbol before with no issues and all of a sudden they take it and have sides they've never experienced before. Have you seen that before or experienced it?? seems like you know what you're talking about so just trying to pick your brain :)
-
you want NPP !
-
These drugs are really unpredictable aren't they. EveryBODY is different and its impossible to tell how one person will react to a certain compound till he/she actually tries it on themselves. I've even heard of people not responding to anti e's like adex and nolva and still get gyno from just test. Then you start to think if you're ingesting what you think you are and that brings with it another issue.
Another thing I've seen from reading the boards is that sometimes people react differently to a certain compound. What I mean is that maybe that they've used dbol before with no issues and all of a sudden they take it and have sides they've never experienced before. Have you seen that before or experienced it?? seems like you know what you're talking about so just trying to pick your brain :)
hmmm, i don't know how to explain that except that using drugs with other drugs can sometimes amplify effects that were previously unnoticed before, like for instance if someone used tren before and didn't notice any psychological side effects but when combined with deca they experience severe psychological side effects or inversely if someone experienced psychological sides from tren alone then ran high dose test, the aromatization of the test to estrogen counteracts tren's effects on the brain and their once previous side effects seem to just vanish.
or, people could buy faked gear and get another compounds than what they ordered, or possibly it was cut with something else and thus giving different sides. both are common occurrences with ugls. side effects should generally be consistent unless something within the body changes, like adding different drugs into the equation.
-
hmmm, i don't know how to explain that except that using drugs with other drugs can sometimes amplify effects that were previously unnoticed before, like for instance if someone used tren before and didn't notice any psychological side effects but when combined with deca they experience severe psychological side effects or inversely if someone experienced psychological sides from tren alone then ran high dose test, the aromatization of the test to estrogen counteracts tren's effects on the brain and their once previous side effects seem to just vanish.
or, people could buy faked gear and get another compounds than what they ordered, or possibly it was cut with something else and thus giving different sides. both are common occurrences with ugls. side effects should generally be consistent unless something within the body changes, like adding different drugs into the equation.
All logical explanations you posted. Lets just say that these people are actually running the same compounds, all legit as they claim to be. Could it be that something within the body changes ?? Like a change in your receptors.....
I've seen it happen with other kinds of drugs, mainly the psychoactive kind. Might not be a good comparison but if you react differently over time to a drug psychologically than a physiological change had to occur as well. I really don't know if that makes any sense :-\
-
I don't understand where you're getting these number from. Why is 600mg/EQ the minimum? What's so magical about that number? That's like saying 12wks of a certain steroid is more magical than 11 or 13.
Anyway, in my opinion, as for Deca-Durabolin:
*For joint relief 100mg per wk is all that's needed.
*For performance, 200mg per wk is the minimum dose to see performance results. This is not to imply this is the recommended dose, there is no one size fits all recommended dose. 200mg would simply be the minimum, and if it is true 100% Deca-Durabolin you'd get results.
-
receptor sites don't change in how they react to androgens, they merely just upregulate or downregulate. if you run a lot of steroids your androgen receptors in the muscles will upregulate, i believe the same applies to androgen receptors in other parts of the body and they can also downregulate if inactive for long enough. which all it really means is your cells birth more receptor sites or decrease the number of them.
i don't really know anything about psychological drugs, i don't touch any recreational drugs, lol. the effects of hormones on the brain are temporary, once there's a decrease or increase you'll have changes in mood, behavior or thinking in relation to the change in hormone. but there could be natural genetic changes to the body, like a thyroid tumor and as a result you produce excess thyroid hormone, which has a cascading effect on the rest of the body, such as increased level of somatostatin which signals a decrease in production of growth hormone, on top of the changed thyroid and probably cortisol levels which can greatly effect how a person feels. by and large though, using bodybuilding steroids aren't going to have any side effects that will persist after cessation by themselves (granted you still have endogenous androgens that may continue the effects of what the steroids caused, prime example is hair loss or growth from the bodies test production), but the lifestyle that comes along with steroid abuse would be the more likely culprit to cause long lasting effects to the body.
-
I don't understand what up and down regulation really mean to be honest. Is it like having to take more or less drugs to have the same effect?
If thats the case than maybe it could be an explanation why someone would experience sides they haven't before. Like becoming more sensitive to a drugs androgenic/estrogenic side effects.
-
Lots of bad advice in this thread...
People need to learn the difference between what a SERM does, what an AI does, and what a dopamine agonist does. Then they have to learn the difference between how a progestin like 19-nors cause gyno and how a testosterone-derivative causes gyno.
-
I don't understand what up and down regulation really mean to be honest. Is it like having to take more or less drugs to have the same effect?
If thats the case than maybe it could be an explanation why someone would experience sides they haven't before. Like becoming more sensitive to a drugs androgenic/estrogenic side effects.
no, as i said upregulation just means your cells birth more receptor sites, which means the upperlimit for how many androgens will cause effects will increase. like, this is a very crude and simplistic analogy as it that misses some crucial details but androgen receptors are very complex and i'm lazy:
so imagine you have a bunch of rectangular slots open on a wooden board, lets say you have 10 rectangular spaces. now, you have 15 rectangular pegs (testosterone), 10 circular pegs (estrogen) and 5 square pegs (an anti-androgen like spironolactone). now, you only have 10 spaces total, while you have 30 total pegs, only 10 of those can get onto the board and then cause gene expression and changes to the dna of the muscle cell. obviously, the estrogen cannot fit into the space at all, so those will be ignored, but that leaves 20 pegs left. now, for sake of simplicity, testosterone will have a higher binding affinity than the anti-androgen (when in reality it is completely reversed), but since in this example test has a higher binding affinity, 8 testosterone pegs out of the 15 testosterone pegs bind to the rectangular slots, 2 anti-androgens bind to the remaining 2 open slots (but poorly and do not activate the receptor) on the wooden board. you have 8 spaces expressing gene transcription, 2 of those are inactive. when your androgen receptors upregulate, your cells birth more total androgen receptor sites, or pegs in this example. so let's say you now have 15 total rectangular slots open after upregulation, while still having the same amount of hormones, and as a result you now have 11 testosterone pegs attaching to the board, out of the 15 total testosterone and then you have 4 anti-androgens binding to the remaining 4 open spaces. the result is more testosterone can be put to use and cause greater anabolism and hypertrophy.
now, again, i just want to say this was a very simplistic analogy because first of all you won't realistically max out your androgen receptor sites until you hit about 3 grams of gear a week (which is why 3grams is usually the number people stop at with high dosages). also, secondly, and very importantly, not all steroids express their effects through androgen receptor sites, as many, many orals have poor binding affinity and cause physiological changes and gene expression through other pathways. example, anavar is known for reducing stomach fat exceptionally well, and it does this by being an anti-glucocorticoid, which suppresses the effects of cortisol, cortisol being something that increases body fat specifically stomach fat, and also anavar increase thyroid hormone uptake in cells. the combination of the two causes a greater reduction in stomach fat, compared to other steroids, like tren, which is also a potent anti-glucocorticord.
note on tren: tren is also a strong anti-glucocorticord, through this effect it lowers protein degradation (muscle protein catabolism), while increasing nutrient partitioning as well as being an antagonist to the mineral-corticoid receptor site, which lowers sodium uptake and causes the drying effect (also increases likelihood of cramping) and most importantly tren is a potent thermogenic through the means of stimulating prostaglandin production (these things just cause bodyfat loss, essentially and are the things responsible for tren cough). all these things combined is why tren is the absolute king of cutting hormones and recomping hormones. it's also an extremely good bulking hormone because it increases myoblast proliferation (satellite stem cells that latch onto damaged muscle fibers and cause them to hypertrophy) which is the mode of action hgh causes as well to push people beyond aas limits (though hgh does other things too so it's not as though tren will be a replacement)
-
i typed too much but after typing up half of it and realizing that i said fuck it because i wasnt going to delete it and write a more concise version
-
50-75 mg of T3 will kill prolactin from tren or deca,would also help with protein absorbtion and burning fat.Would be a good add ;)
-
450 NPP, 300 TEST IT IS.
I TRAIN 6 DAYS A WEEK, WONDER IF I SHOULD DO 75MG NPP, 50MG TNE PRE-WORKOUT ED. OR 150MG NPP, 100MG TEST E ED.
-
6 days a week.That's too damn much if you wanna grow and recover,split them in 4. ::)
-
6 days a week.That's too damn much if you wanna grow and recover,split them in 4. ::)
BIG BEYOND BELIEF BRO.
PROVEN PROGRAM. DONE THIS WHILE NATURAL AND FUCKING WAS LOVING IT. SOME OF MY BROS DO IT TOO WHEN THEY GO ON THEIR HALODROL LOL. ITS A GO-TO CYCLE FOR ME.
-
Suit what works best for you...
-
I have ran both. They each have a slightly different effect on me.
Deca-Great mass gains but i hold way too much water for me. Joints feel amazing while on deca. But i can get deca dick if i am not very careful and keep my test higher. I usually run deca in the 400mg ew range. Prolactin also seems to be an issue for me on deca if i dont keep it around 400mg ew.
NPP-LOVE this shit. I get all the benefits of deca with very little side effects. No water retention and no deca dick for me with NPP. One of the best cycles i ran was 100mg test prop eod with 100mg npp eod. Very good lean gains with NPP. Joints still get to feeling better as well.
If you can get real and real good NPP there is no doubt i would opt for that over regular DECA. Well worth it as far as im concerned.
my 2 cents
-
WORD. NPP IT IS.
150MG M-W-F, WITH 100MG TEST C M-W-F.
450MG NPP, 300 TEST. JUST LOADING UP ON THEM OILS. DONT WORRY THE NPP IS FROM A GREAT, GREAT CHEF.
-
You will love it my man. You will see chages in about 2 weeks. Keep an eye on yourself with the test c that low. YOu might (Or might not) need to bump the test c to around 500. Just monitor your libido and your dick. I love adding NPP to a cycle.
-
x2 love NPP!!!
iVe done test/deca and test/npp cycle...and npp shits on deca. Deca makes u look bloofy, watery. Npp gives u that nice round look that deca gives without the water, bloof. I ran it at 450mg/week
-
You will love it my man. You will see chages in about 2 weeks. Keep an eye on yourself with the test c that low. YOu might (Or might not) need to bump the test c to around 500. Just monitor your libido and your dick. I love adding NPP to a cycle.
TRYING TO GO LOW TEST, MODERATE-HIGH ANABOLIC. IF SHIT GETS REAL WITH LIBIDO, I GOT PROVIRON.
I DONT NEED MY LIBIDO TO BE LIKE IT IS ON 500. ON 250, JACKING OFF OR HAVING SEX 3-4 TIMES A DAY IS FINE, BUT ON 500MG I SERIOUSLY HAD TO RELIEVE SOME STRESS 6 OR 7 TIMES A DAY.
THANKS FOR THE ADVICE. LOOKING FORWARD TO THIS.
-
450 NPP, 300 TEST IT IS.
I TRAIN 6 DAYS A WEEK, WONDER IF I SHOULD DO 75MG NPP, 50MG TNE PRE-WORKOUT ED. OR 150MG NPP, 100MG TEST E ED.
tne hurts, always leaves pip and makes it hard to train since you have to rotate injection spots a lot and then you essentially make every muscle in your body sore from it lol
-
tne hurts, always leaves pip and makes it hard to train since you have to rotate injection spots a lot and then you essentially make every muscle in your body sore from it lol
GOT STRANGO TNE. IF THAT SHIT HURTS, THEN ILL JUST GO TEST E OR C.
-
receptor sites don't change in how they react to androgens, they merely just upregulate or downregulate. if you run a lot of steroids your androgen receptors in the muscles will upregulate, i believe the same applies to androgen receptors in other parts of the body and they can also downregulate if inactive for long enough. which all it really means is your cells birth more receptor sites or decrease the number of them.
i don't really know anything about psychological drugs, i don't touch any recreational drugs, lol. the effects of hormones on the brain are temporary, once there's a decrease or increase you'll have changes in mood, behavior or thinking in relation to the change in hormone. but there could be natural genetic changes to the body, like a thyroid tumor and as a result you produce excess thyroid hormone, which has a cascading effect on the rest of the body, such as increased level of somatostatin which signals a decrease in production of growth hormone, on top of the changed thyroid and probably cortisol levels which can greatly effect how a person feels. by and large though, using bodybuilding steroids aren't going to have any side effects that will persist after cessation by themselves (granted you still have endogenous androgens that may continue the effects of what the steroids caused, prime example is hair loss or growth from the bodies test production), but the lifestyle that comes along with steroid abuse would be the more likely culprit to cause long lasting effects to the body.
dont know if your legit or not but you have made some good posts. I have a question for you that I think you might be a canditate for.
Why is it that, in the presence of high doses of androgens (testosterone,anadrol for example..) alot less muscle growth is scene in most cases, than when anabolics such as deca/eq/primo/dbol/winstrol are used in conjunction with test? I remember reading that in the presence of weight training and supraphysiological doses of testosterone, muscle mass is broken down much quicker, but a the same time it is built alot more efficiently. when I go on a high dosage of test only cycles, I do grow on it, but the growth happens slowly..workout to workout the changes are slow but happen. Anyone who has done a fair share of test only cycle and has a fair share of experience with test in varying doses can vouche that you blow up quick as in that "thick look" you get at first... but as far as actual tissue growth you do not grow as fast as without the addition of that anabolic.
The moment I add in an anabolic,even a low dosage of dbol for example.. I start gaining lean tissue like crazy, but upping the test just does not do this for me. I can honestly say that I gain more muscle on 600mg test and a low dose of dbol than a higher dose of test and 150mg anadrol a day...as we know anadrol is highly androgenic and nowhere near as anabolic as dbol.
"Androgens are very powerful stimulators of the muscle protein synthesis rate. On the other hand, the muscle gains provided by androgens do not match this elevation in synthesis. steroids promote anabolism to a much higher rate than they make our muscles grow.
The reason for this discrepancy is that they also stimulate protein degradation. I know many people think they are anti-catabolic, but it is not the case. Anabolics stimulate protein turnover. This means they increase both synthesis and degradation of proteins. They are simply more effective at stimulating synthesis than degradation, which is why they make our muscles grow but not at a super fast rate. Look at how long it takes to grow huge muscles. If androgens were stimulating synthesis while inhibiting degradation, one would grow very, very quickly. What is important to understand is that past a certain dose, anabolics will provide their own antidote against muscle growth. The only solution (beside using less steroids) is to increase insulinase level."
Granted, the article was on insulin in combination with anabolic steroids but could the antidote the author talks about be related to very high doses of androgens? It makes sense to me, lots of guys here have said they were at their biggest on mega doses of anabolics and low androgens, gh15 was at his biggest on lots of npp and eq,BLP told me the same ,bulsemo said this as well, no one also menioned throwing in somes anavar blows him up faster than upping the test dosage. Asked Disgusted too, he said 750mg is the max one should use with test by itself for muscle gains.
-
if it's a good cook then it shouldn't hurt too bad, but the best way to make painless tne is with solvents that a lot of people have allergies to so a lot of sources won't use those solvents and it causes the tne to crash after injection because the body absorbs the ba and bb faster than the hormone making it turn back into crystallized solid that'll cut up your muscle fibers.
best way to pin tne is in the muscle you're going to workout on that day. that way it will spread the oil around more evenly and also because it takes about half a day for the hormone to start crashing so you can workout before the pip sets in without doing any damage to your muscle fibers.
-
dont know if your legit or not but you have made some good posts. I have a question for you that I think you might be a canditate for.
Why is it that, in the presence of high doses of androgens (testosterone,anadrol for example..) alot less muscle growth is scene in most cases, than when anabolics such as deca/eq/primo/dbol/winstrol are used in conjunction with test? I remember reading that in the presence of weight training and supraphysiological doses of testosterone, muscle mass is broken down much quicker, but a the same time it is built alot more efficiently. when I go on a high dosage of test only cycles, I do grow on it, but the growth happens slowly..workout to workout the changes are slow but happen. Anyone who has done a fair share of test only cycle and has a fair share of experience with test in varying doses can vouche that you blow up quick as in that "thick look" you get at first... but as far as actual tissue growth you do not grow as fast as without the addition of that anabolic.
The moment I add in an anabolic,even a low dosage of dbol for example.. I start gaining lean tissue like crazy, but upping the test just does not do this for me. I can honestly say that I gain more muscle on 600mg test and a low dose of dbol than a higher dose of test and 150mg anadrol a day...as we know anadrol is highly androgenic and nowhere near as anabolic as dbol.
"Androgens are very powerful stimulators of the muscle protein synthesis rate. On the other hand, the muscle gains provided by androgens do not match this elevation in synthesis. steroids promote anabolism to a much higher rate than they make our muscles grow.
The reason for this discrepancy is that they also stimulate protein degradation. I know many people think they are anti-catabolic, but it is not the case. Anabolics stimulate protein turnover. This means they increase both synthesis and degradation of proteins. They are simply more effective at stimulating synthesis than degradation, which is why they make our muscles grow but not at a super fast rate. Look at how long it takes to grow huge muscles. If androgens were stimulating synthesis while inhibiting degradation, one would grow very, very quickly. What is important to understand is that past a certain dose, anabolics will provide their own antidote against muscle growth. The only solution (beside using less steroids) is to increase insulinase level."
Granted, the article was on insulin in combination with anabolic steroids but could the antidote the author talks about be related to very high doses of androgens? It makes sense to me, lots of guys here have said they were at their biggest on mega doses of anabolics and low androgens, gh15 was at his biggest on lots of npp and eq,BLP told me the same ,bulsemo said this as well, no one also menioned throwing in somes anavar blows him up faster than upping the test dosage. Asked Disgusted too, he said 750mg is the max one should use with test by itself for muscle gains.
i don't know the rates of protein turnover for various steroids but i do know test increases turnover by a large margin. thing is, t3 also increases protein turnover and everyone thinks of it as a catabolic, but it actually can be an anabolic when used in combination with steroids that increase nitrogen retention (protein levels in your blood). test increases nitrogen retention and causes intercellular water retention, which isn't exactly real muscle growth but will increase strength and so it is a pretty decent mass builder but, i've seen studies that compared various steroids, all of the popular ones, and for actual increases in muscle fiber diameter, test was the absolute lowest out of all of them.
test works great for some people but i don't think it's that great of a steroid in general, just makes people bloofy and a lot of people think because their arms grew 2 inches with no definition that they grew a ton of muscle. it's benefit to side effect ratio is too low compared to other, better drugs.
have you tried deca before? it's extremely anabolic and has great synergy with d-bol, you'll probably grow like a weed if you do well off of high anabolics and also deca barely has any effect on your hair which i think you were concerned about.
-
also i just want to say that quote is right: insulin is very anti-catabolic and prevents muscle breakdown, infact so is hgh (hgh without insulin is just an anti-catabolic btw), which is why insulin and hgh have such a huge synergy with steroids as it negates muscle catabolism, which in turn increases overall muscular growth.
protein turnover = protein degradation - protein synthesis, so if you keep protein synthesis the same, or even lower it (as tren does) but drastically reduce protein degradation then you have overall protein accretion, or muscle growth. insulin and hgh will lower protein degradation themselves and can counteract the protein degradation of things like t3, but when you combine both insulin and hgh together they are actually anabolic in their own right, increasing myofibril size (muscle fiber) by increasing satellite cell proliferation, WHICH IS VERY IMPORTANT, because muscle cells do not undergo mitosis, once you are born you are set with a certain number of muscle cells and the only way for them to grow is by satellite cells binding to them to induce hypertrophy or very rarely cause hyperplasia (create new muscle cells). hgh also lowers myostatin levels, which is a very potent anti-anabolic in the body. all of these things is why, absolutely, hgh is a necessity to get past your genetic aas max, as steroids alone will not cause enough anabolism to do it.
-
if it's a good cook then it shouldn't hurt too bad, but the best way to make painless tne is with solvents that a lot of people have allergies to so a lot of sources won't use those solvents and it causes the tne to crash after injection because the body absorbs the ba and bb faster than the hormone making it turn back into crystallized solid that'll cut up your muscle fibers.
best way to pin tne is in the muscle you're going to workout on that day. that way it will spread the oil around more evenly and also because it takes about half a day for the hormone to start crashing so you can workout before the pip sets in without doing any damage to your muscle fibers.
IM PINNING HALF IN RIGHT BI OR TRI, OTHER IN LEFT BI OR TRI. THN GONNA GO WORKOUT, EITHER MY TRI OR BI AND OBVIOUSLY OTHER BODYPARTS.
-
IM PINNING HALF IN RIGHT BI OR TRI, OTHER IN LEFT BI OR TRI. THN GONNA GO WORKOUT, EITHER MY TRI OR BI AND OBVIOUSLY OTHER BODYPARTS.
hell yeah 8)
-
IM PINNING HALF IN RIGHT BI OR TRI, OTHER IN LEFT BI OR TRI. THN GONNA GO WORKOUT, EITHER MY TRI OR BI AND OBVIOUSLY OTHER BODYPARTS.
Up the test e eq and gh with the tne and get 19-20s if u got good arm genetics lol
-
Up the test e eq and gh with the tne and get 19-20s if u got good arm genetics lol
LOLOLOL HORRIBLE ARM GENETICS HERE, SHOULDER, BACK ....YES. IM WIDE AND THIN, I LACK THICKNESS.
WHEN HEALTHY I HAVE THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS PLANNED OUT, AND BY EARLY 2012 EVERYTHING SHOULD BE IN MY POSSESSION SANS THE GH I USE LATER.
-
start low and work your way up untill/if you find a dose you like. fuck this "asking for advice" bullshit.
-
start low and work your way up untill/if you find a dose you like. fuck this "asking for advice" bullshit.
yeah, i agree with this. there isn't one type of steroid and dosage that will work for everyone and give the exact results because everyone is different and gets different sides. you just gotta experiment.
also, deadlifts, and heavy rows (t-bar, heavy dumbbell rows) all add thickness to your back. for the front, do wide grip bench and incline flyes, builds up the pec-delt-shoulder tie-in and will make you look thicker when people look at you from the front. i never target upper traps directly, i hit them harder than my delts when i do lateral raises, so i don't feel the need to do shrugs since smaller traps makes you look wider.
-
laying off your traps can allow you to recruit more shoulders making you wider in the long run but big traps dont make you look narrow. id suggest learning how to do lateral raises properly instead of living with undersized traps. without big traps you lose a big portion of the "muscular look", they add a ton of the powerfullness and animalesque appearance.
-
my traps aren't undersized, lol, they just aren't huge, as i said i hit them when i do lateral raises, also to an extent when i do mili press too. thing is though, i have real bad shoulders, always hurt me so i can't do much about incorporating my traps when i do lateral raises, but i still murder my delts, probably hit them the best and learned how to make them grow better than any other body part. the issue with me is just reoccurring shoulder strain in my RC and rhomboids.
i think huge traps do make you look more narrow though, and i don't want the powerful looking physique i prefer the fitness model look with a real wide v-taper and a tight stomach.
-
laying off your traps can allow you to recruit more shoulders making you wider in the long run but big traps dont make you look narrow. id suggest learning how to do lateral raises properly instead of living with undersized traps. without big traps you lose a big portion of the "muscular look", they add a ton of the powerfullness and animalesque appearance.
TRAPS AND DELTS ARE ALL HORMONES. ALL HORMONES. NOTHINGS CHANGED WITH THE STYLE OF MY EATING, OR TRAINING. JUST THE DRUGS AND OBVIOUSLY IM BIGGER AND WIDER PARTICULARLY IN THOSE TWO AREAS, AND FOREARMS. THAT JUST SHOWS UR RESPONSE TO HORMONES.
start low and work your way up untill/if you find a dose you like. fuck this "asking for advice" bullshit.
WORD.
-
they dont make you look narrow. your width is your width. maybe when you look at your self in pictures or i the mirror it appears that way to you, but in real life when standing next to a person their width doesnt change because of big traps.
but if thats what ya want.. do ur thing buddy
dont be confused thinking chicks dont like the powerful look though. lean, fitness model is good. but lean, powerful fitness model is even better.
-
IF YOU HAVE WIDE CLAVICLES, YOUR TRAPS ARE WIDE RATHER THAN HIGH. MY TRAPS ARE JUST WIDE. THEY DONīT PEAK HIGH, THEY JUST ARE REAL WIDE. I WAS AFRAID OF IT KILLING THE WIDE LOOK, BUT IT HAS ONLY ENHANCED IT.
-
they dont make you look narrow. your width is your width. maybe when you look at your self in pictures or i the mirror it appears that way to you, but in real life when standing next to a person their width doesnt change because of big traps.
but if thats what ya want.. do ur thing buddy
dont be confused thinking chicks dont like the powerful look though. lean, fitness model is good. but lean, powerful fitness model is even better.
of course width doesn't change but perception of your width changes if you've got a lot of mass on your traps. it also depends on your trap shape and neck height too, a lot of it is that. like arnold had a long neck and long upper traps, which looked great when built up and didn't detract from his physique.
anyways, i don't ever lift for the girls, i think that's a real pointless waste of time because women care more about clothes and superficial shit pertaining to your wealth and power in society. chasing after women never gets you ahead in life, getting ahead in life always gets you women though.
-
laying off your traps can allow you to recruit more shoulders making you wider in the long run but big traps dont make you look narrow. id suggest learning how to do lateral raises properly instead of living with undersized traps. without big traps you lose a big portion of the "muscular look", they add a ton of the powerfullness and animalesque appearance.
speaking of traps..Tbombz I have to thank you for your advice on shoulders many months back. I'm the narrowest son of a bitch (clavicles wise) you will ever meet, HORRIBLE I'm talking about I make Phil Heath's look like he has wide clavicles lol.. but I've put so much muscle on my shoulders I'm starting to look some what wide ..I can't fucking believe it. I should also say that my delts "took off" when my strength on shoulder excercises shot up on side lateral raises. Of course I probably could of gotten the same effect if I was still on 10 iu of gh while doing 20 pound delt raises :D but hey if your broke, have so so genetics, and can only afford AAS you better lift some heavy weights to get big shoulders. 8) I think this goes for all bodyparts, you can't get big without getting strong
-
IF YOU HAVE WIDE CLAVICLES, YOUR TRAPS ARE WIDE RATHER THAN HIGH. MY TRAPS ARE JUST WIDE. THEY DONīT PEAK HIGH, THEY JUST ARE REAL WIDE. I WAS AFRAID OF IT KILLING THE WIDE LOOK, BUT IT HAS ONLY ENHANCED IT.
be thankful you have wide clavicles..I had to to take drugs to even started looking NORMAL in the shoulders, not wide but looking like a normal guy and not a cheerleader:o It wasn't until I was shoulder pressing 225 for reps that people started commenting on my delts. LOL military pressing 225 to stop looking like a natty :D Even then I doubt I will ever be truly "wide"..only so much muscle you can add there but you work with what you got :)
-
start low and work your way up untill/if you find a dose you like. fuck this "asking for advice" bullshit.
For once you have actually posted something of value. THis is the best way to go about using hormones, since everyone will react differently.
-
Has anyone ran eq/deca alone? maybe add in 150mg test a week if needed?
-
speaking of traps..Tbombz I have to thank you for your advice on shoulders many months back. I'm the narrowest son of a bitch (clavicles wise) you will ever meet, HORRIBLE I'm talking about I make Phil Heath's look like he has wide clavicles lol.. but I've put so much muscle on my shoulders I'm starting to look some what wide ..I can't fucking believe it. I should also say that my delts "took off" when my strength on shoulder excercises shot up on side lateral raises. Of course I probably could of gotten the same effect if I was still on 10 iu of gh while doing 20 pound delt raises :D but hey if your broke, have so so genetics, and can only afford AAS you better lift some heavy weights to get big shoulders. 8) I think this goes for all bodyparts, you can't get big without getting strong
love lateral raises. basically all i ever do for for shoulders.
-
love lateral raises. basically all i ever do for for shoulders.
u like volume for them or heavy weight lower rep scheme
-
u like volume for them or heavy weight lower rep scheme
both, but most of the time "volume", though volume is limited. my workouts are brief, to the point. usually between 3-6 sets total for shoulders. straight sets. 8-12 reps. good form. shy of failure. every once in a while i go heavy and use a bit of momentum to bust a platue. i get over trained quickly if i do too many sets so im forced to choose an exercise and focus on it, i like lateral raises, everyonce in a while i throw in a pressing movement. i do rear delts with back. 3-4 sets, higher reps, one arm at a time, using the pulley at about eye level.
-
love lateral raises. basically all i ever do for for shoulders.
i like them too, nothing builds up the medial delt like lateral raises. problem is my shoulders are fucked up and after i do lateral raises my shoulders will pop and crack for a week and a half. military press just doesn't do it for medial delt head though
-
RIGHT WITH YOU TBOMBZ.
ALL I DO FOR SHOULDERS IS LATERAL RAISES, SOMETIMES...I THROW IN WIDE GRIP DUMBELL UPRIGHT ROWS.
HAVENīT DONE PRESSES IN SOME TIME.
-
@ Nosleep- Regarding traps and deltoids being mostly hormones, I can't agree more. These are the two body parts (especially traps) that absolutely blew up when I started using AAS correctly.
In response to your question, if I understand it properly, I am a proponent of using 500 mg of good deca a week in conjunction with 750 mg of a long esther test (I like sust if I am using deca. The reason being that I blow up more on sust than I do with C or E, and when I am running deca, my goals are mass; blowing up is the goal.) However, you can get away with using 250-400 mg if you decide that 500 mg is too much, or if you are scared of gyno, or simply prone to it (I am not. I never use an AI and I have never needed it once. However, I run nolvadex at 10 mg a day whenever I cycle). On the other hand, I have seen friends use up to a gram of deca weekly. These friends got huge, and one of them ended up in the the hospital getting gyno surgery last summer.
-
@ Nosleep- Regarding traps and deltoids being mostly hormones, I can't agree more. These are the two body parts (especially traps) that absolutely blew up when I started using AAS correctly.
In response to your question, if I understand it properly, I am a proponent of using 500 mg of good deca a week in conjunction with 750 mg of a long esther test (I like sust if I am using deca. The reason being that I blow up more on sust than I do with C or E, and when I am running deca, my goals are mass; blowing up is the goal.) However, you can get away with using 250-400 mg if you decide that 500 mg is too much, or if you are scared of gyno, or simply prone to it (I am not. I never use an AI and I have never needed it once. However, I run nolvadex at 10 mg a day whenever I cycle). On the other hand, I have seen friends use up to a gram of deca weekly. These friends got huge, and one of them ended up in the the hospital getting gyno surgery last summer.
FOREARMS TOO.
IM JUST KEEPING A BASE AS IN 250-300MG TEST, THE REST WLL BE NPP TO FILL UP 750MG.