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Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Steroids Info & Hardcore => Topic started by: macos on November 24, 2013, 06:17:26 AM
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So how far can just the humble testosterona, nandrolona and gh take you in bodybuilding?
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So how far can just the humble testosterona, nandrolona and gh take you in bodybuilding?
truthfully, this the bread and butter in off season training, add d-bol and I suspect you can reach 90% of you genetics limitation in regards to mass
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you can get truly huge i believe provided you eat a lot of chickens and rice and lift heavy ass weight
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it's the simplest and most effective combo of drugs to add size.
personally, i'd prefer to see 2g of test, 1g of deca and 100mg dbol per day with as much gh as you can afford for as long as you can afford it.... something like 16 weeks preferably.
keep your kcals high enough to grow and keep putting food in you every couple hours.
and when it's time to cut down and get hard, replace the deca with tren and replace the dbol with anadrol.
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i hear the arab with no moneys just stick to test and what other roids are cheap and top that off with insulin.
they get huge.
yes its safe to say with given genetics, test and gh almost on themselves can make one a pro.
not given gneetics, nothing will
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i hear the arab with no moneys just stick to test and what other roids are cheap and top that off with insulin.
they get huge.
yes its safe to say with given genetics, test and gh almost on themselves can make one a pro.
not given gneetics, nothing will
in my experience, test only... even in high doses 5+g/wk won't give the same results as 2g test and 1g deca (or 1g of something 'similar'.. tren, eq, dbol/drol [150/day=1050/wk], hell, even primo). i'm not a big believer in the 'synergistic' bro-science stuff, since I've never seen any studies on it, but it seems to work.
I recall watching an old vhs tape of a seminar dan duchaine and somebody from "PeakMag" where he talked about dorian "supposedly" believing using 6-10 different drugs was more beneficial than using 2-3 in equal doses. (4g of 2-3 vs 4g of 6-10, ect)
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And would you be so kind as to give a brief explanation for why that is. If test is king he isnt much of a king if he needs to be mixed with his minions... ;)
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And would you be so kind as to give a brief explanation for why that is. If test is king he isnt much of a king if he needs to be mixed with his minions... ;)
wht esfitness said is a bit confusing. I have decided to order some pharmacology and steroid.chemistry books to find out for myself what this is all about.
If you guys have any pdfs please forward me the links.
thanks.
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And would you be so kind as to give a brief explanation for why that is. If test is king he isnt much of a king if he needs to be mixed with his minions... ;)
come on now, all kings need minions, they are nothing without the minios :D
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come on now, all kings need minions, they are nothing without the minios :D
we are talking political science now
;D
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we are talking political science now
;D
:D
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truthfully, this the bread and butter in off season training, add d-bol and I suspect you can reach 90% of you genetics limitation in regards to mass
adding gh should raise the genetic barrier
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adding gh should raise the genetic barrier
i said 90% because there is one factor the brings you past this barrier that can not be replaced with any other compound known to man and that is SLIN.
no gh or aas combined in the largest amount can get you to the size slin can, it is in a league of its own, however I do not recommend it because it compromises aesthetics, so unless you have been lifting for ten years and juicing for 5, don't even think about it.
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And would you be so kind as to give a brief explanation for why that is. If test is king he isnt much of a king if he needs to be mixed with his minions... ;)
I don't think Test needs to be mixed with anything to work great. It will work better, but it is not necessary. Test is the only drug I can say on its own is a complete package. Think about all the other drugs, maybe Dbol will fit into the category too, but everything else I think of is between shit-good on a scale when take on its own. 1+grams of Test will definitely have big results. Sides too, but big upside. Yeah I would say Test and Dbol are the two drugs that on their own pack a huge punch and don't require other drugs to even them out.
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wht esfitness said is a bit confusing. I have decided to order some pharmacology and steroid.chemistry books to find out for myself what this is all about.
If you guys have any pdfs please forward me the links.
thanks.
be carefull about the steroid chem books, many are full of bro-science... i'd stick with Endocrinology books. I scour used book stores and thrift stores and get the OLDEST books I can find since they tend to have more info on steroids in them.. a lot of times OLD obscure steroids too. my wall/bookcase used to be FULL of them, and I believe the most I paid for any of them was like $3!.
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And would you be so kind as to give a brief explanation for why that is. If test is king he isnt much of a king if he needs to be mixed with his minions... ;)
I don't understand why it is.
from my experience.. my own personal experience with my body, as well as people I've trained and people who know personally... 3g of test + 2g of deca will produce better results than 5g of test alone.
why? I dunno.
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in my experience, test only... even in high doses 5+g/wk won't give the same results as 2g test and 1g deca (or 1g of something 'similar'.. tren, eq, dbol/drol [150/day=1050/wk], hell, even primo). i'm not a big believer in the 'synergistic' bro-science stuff, since I've never seen any studies on it, but it seems to work.
I recall watching an old vhs tape of a seminar dan duchaine and somebody from "PeakMag" where he talked about dorian "supposedly" believing using 6-10 different drugs was more beneficial than using 2-3 in equal doses. (4g of 2-3 vs 4g of 6-10, ect)
yeah i think theres truth to that.
i also think bit aas + gh will be better than just upping the aas.
as for the saying test being king,its bit relative.
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for covering most ground, test is king, period, are there compounds that are more beneficial then test for specific things, Of course.
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be carefull about the steroid chem books, many are full of bro-science... i'd stick with Endocrinology books. I scour used book stores and thrift stores and get the OLDEST books I can find since they tend to have more info on steroids in them.. a lot of times OLD obscure steroids too. my wall/bookcase used to be FULL of them, and I believe the most I paid for any of them was like $3!.
i agree the steroid handbooks are only good for getting a first idea.
sometimes they have massive errors in them which are either never corrected or with next release-update, a decade later.
i remember clearly, 15years ago, the one most popular steroid handbook, not one hint to the possibility of tren causing bitchtits, let alone how to "prevent or avoid)it.
meanwhile for the other steroids,theres been explicit warnings etc.
but 1 thing i still wonder about how have builders found out about arimidex so fast after its been released.same thing on that,in the first books, this was never mentioned.now it s one of the fav estrogen blockers out there.
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in bigger faster stronger the fat powerlifter guy who is some sort of powerlifting union chairman
said that a combination of different steroids is more effective than a large quantity of one
it keeps the receptors guessing
muscle confusion :D
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in bigger faster stronger the fat powerlifter guy who is some sort of powerlifting union chairman
said that a combination of different steroids is more effective than a large quantity of one
it keeps the receptors guessing
muscle confusion :D
Muscle confusion: think of doing a curl while actually doing a skull crusher - confuses the muscle into growing bigger biceps
Receptor confusion: think of injecting tren when actually injecting deca - confuses the body into becoming a "carb furnace." Will allow you to eat all the carbs you want and get down to 2% BF
:D :D
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My experience (though limited) is that test, deca, and anavar are a great combo. Add gh and the gains are amazing. I have been able to get only test for awhile now, and I definitely see and feel the difference. :'(
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Muscle confusion: think of doing a curl while actually doing a skull crusher - confuses the muscle into growing bigger biceps
Receptor confusion: think of injecting tren when actually injecting deca - confuses the body into becoming a "carb furnace." Will allow you to eat all the carbs you want and get down to 2% BF
:D :D
lol funniest thing ive heard in a while haha
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You get diminishing returns with all products
Just like if you're squatting 4x a week, will squatting one more day produce better effects than adding front squats instead? Probably not.
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I don't understand why it is.
from my experience.. my own personal experience with my body, as well as people I've trained and people who know personally... 3g of test + 2g of deca will produce better results than 5g of test alone.
why? I dunno.
Jesus either or would produce massive gains for me, I was thinking couple grams test, 1gm deca, D,bol pre workout, 4iu GH daily for off season gaining...
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You get diminishing returns with all products
I don't know why this makes sense to me but it just does!
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I truly believe in synergy effects....... one amplifies another
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yeah
if the body notices too much of one compound, it will ramp up other hormones like estrogen and cortisol to balance it out. The body likes homoeostasis so it tries to keep it balanced
but for some reason, it's not really high androgens it notices but simply a large amount of one thing. I'm not an endo so I don't fully understand it
So controlling catabolic hormones will help somewhat to push doses higher but it's hard to control. But say a gram of test your cortisol will be very high. 500/600 test/deca cortisol will not be as high, blood tests will show this. estrogen will likely be better too
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I truly believe in synergy effects....... one amplifies another
Other drugs have synergistic effects when combined so why wouldn't it be similar for steroids....hmm interesting.
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Jesus either or would produce massive gains for me, I was thinking couple grams test, 1gm deca, D,bol pre workout, 4iu GH daily for off season gaining...
I think that'd be a perfect start.
although I never get 'deca dick', and the dbol helps a great deal with sex-drive and just overall 'drive', I always keep a little bit of a dht-drug like proviron, masteron, or winstrol around for sex-drive (in small doses).
(tren affects my sex-drive and performance much, much moreso than deca.. 300mg tren is worse than 1200mg deca on me)
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No such thing as deca dick
only "I failed to keep e2 under control because I am lazy, didn't get blood tests and like to play guessing games with my hormones" dick
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No such thing as deca dick
only "I failed to keep e2 under control because I am lazy, didn't get blood tests and like to play guessing games with my hormones" dick
Not only does nandrolone directly interact with androgen and progestin receptors, it also holds the potential of being converted into estradiol (the most potent natural estrogen, commonly a metabolite of testosterone). Herein lies a matter of much confusion. Only recently have the steps involved in the aromatase reaction been defined in sufficient detail to discuss and analyze.7 While testosterone and androstenedione are both natural substrates (starting blocks) for the aromatase reaction, nandrolone is not normally formed in human males in significant amounts.8 In fact, only recently has it been proven that metabolites of nandrolone may be present in athletes absent of the use of anabolic steroids, though again, only trace amounts were produced— below the limits allowed by most drug tests.8 Nandrolone appears to be a very minor by-product of the aromatase reaction that does not accumulate under normal physiologic conditions. Nowhere in the string of reactions involved in classic aromatization is 19-nortestosterone (nandrolone) formed. It is likely that the nandrolone metabolites detected in human males under hCG stimulation represent an overload of the aromatase system with nandrolone being a flawed product, similar to a factory reject.
Confusion prevails regarding the aromatization of nandrolone associated with steroid use. It has been reported by many sources, including respected researchers in prestigious scientific journals, that nandrolone is a non-aromatizable steroid.9 A close examination of related research reveals possible sources for the confusion and provides a concrete answer to the question.
The aromatase reaction is a complex, multi-step pathway involving a number of enzymatic reactions.7 It is present in many different tissue types (brain, ovary, adipose, placenta, etc.) and across many different species (human, horse, pig, etc.).10-13 In fact, even certain bacteria are capable of aromatizing androgens.7 In part, solving the hypothesis regarding any possible interaction of nandrolone with the aromatase reaction has been muddied by studying the enzyme system using vastly different sources. It is known that the aromatase enzyme (cytochrome p450arom) varies greatly. Bacterial aromatase has little similarity to mammalian aromatase. Among animals, there are distinct differences between pigs, horses and man that make translating results from one species to the others difficult.7,10,11,14 Further, it has been shown that even within a single species, there are different promoters (signals that “turn on” enzyme production) in different tissues.12 Conditions that may promote aromatization in the testes are different from those of fat cells.
In mammals, the aromatase reaction involves two separate enzymes that are jointly involved in converting androgens into estrogens.7,12 The first, the hemoprotein CYParom encoded by the CYP19 gene (for those of you who need that kind of information), is the catalyst. It attacks the 19-carbon in two steps and the nearby 1-carbon by oxidizing the androgen molecule at those points. The resulting response and actions of the second enzyme (NADPH-cytochrome P450 reductase) cause the loss of the 19-carbon and the simultaneous generation of a phenolic A-ring (a defining feature of an estrogen). In the absence of a 19-carbon, such as in nandrolone, the reaction would be much less efficient if it was even able to function.
Many medico-scientific journals have noted nandrolone to be a non-aromatizable AAS. Studies using brain cells have shown nandrolone to be more neurotoxic (damaging to nerve cells) because it is not aromatized. It is true that nandrolone is not a candidate for classic aromatization, as the 19-carbon that is missing from nandrolone is the starting point for the entire aromatase reaction. Interestingly, nandrolone stimulates aromatase in rat models, even though it does not participate in the reaction. This would accelerate the conversion of other androgens (testosterone, D-bol, etc).
Yet, the results of a recent study published in the Climacteric prove that nandrolone and other 19-nortestosterone-derived steroids can be converted into estrogenic steroids through a series of enzymatic reactions that take place in the human liver.15 The catalytic (accelerating) first enzyme, CYP 450arom, is not present in the adult human liver, though CYP 450arom is present in certain liver diseases and tumors. However, another enzyme called CYP 450 monooxygenase is able to attack the 2-carbon of the nandrolone and begin the generation of the phenolic A-ring…the definitive step in converting an androgen (or 19-norandrogen in this case) into an estrogen.
Recall that the CYP 450arom played a catalytic role, speeding up the classic aromatase reaction. CYP 450 monooxygenase is much slower and less efficient. This accounts for the comments that nandrolone aromatizes at a rate of 20 percent of testosterone or androstenediol.3 In fact, the rate may be much less. Realizing that Deca is injected intra-muscularly and disperses slowly, and the enzyme system discussed in the Climacteric article was specific to the liver, it is unlikely that standard nandrolone-containing cycles would see a major contribution to feminizing effects from nandrolone being aromatized. However, oral norandrogen-precursors were prominently marketed during the prohormone glory days and an oral norandrogen (7á-methylnortestosterone) is being developed as a potential male contraceptive. It is possible, especially at abusive doses, that such oral norandrogens may elevate estrogen levels sufficiently to cause gynecomastia or other estrogen-related problems. In women provided with oral norandrogens for menopause, researchers speculate that the drugs may hold the potential of increasing estrogen and thus, risk for blood-clotting problems or estrogen-sensitive cancers.15
Nandrolone is considered a relatively safe AAS and has been used extensively by recreational bodybuilders and power athletes. It has rarely been considered to increase the risk of estrogen-related problems, as steroids missing the 19-carbon are not substrates for the classic aromatization reaction. However, in addition to its capacity to stimulate progesterone receptors (a related group of feminizing sex steroid hormones), nandrolone may also increase estrogen levels via a secondary aromatase reaction, promoting the development of gynecomastia and prolonging the delay in restoring natural testosterone production post-cycle. Classic aromatization of testosterone or other androgens may also be accelerated by nandrolone. Oral forms of nandrolone, including prohormones, likely have a much higher estrogenic index and a higher risk of estrogenic side effects due to hepatic (liver) first pass clearance.
References:
1. Personal communication with Dan Duchaine, Columbus, OH;1996.
2. Llewellyn W. Dianabol (methandrostenolone). Anabolics 2005. Body of Science Press, Jupiter, FL;2005:114-8.
3. Llewellyn W. Deca-durabolin (nandrolone decanoate). Anabolics 2005. Body of Science Press, Jupiter, FL;2005:109-12.
4. Babigian A, Silverman RT. Management of gynecomastia due to use of anabolic steroids in bodybuilders. Plast Reconstr Surg, 2001;107:240-2.
5. Markiewicz L, Gurpide E. Estrogenic and progestagenic activities of physiologic and synthetic androgens, as measured by in vitro bioassays. Methods Find Exp Clin Pharmacol, 1997;19:215-22.
6. Walton MJ, Kumar N, et al. 7alpha-methyl-19-nortestosterone (MENT) vs testosterone in combination with etonogestrel implants for spermatogenic suppression in healthy men. J Androl, 2007;28:679-88.
7. Auvray P, Nativelle C, et al. Study of substr,ate specificity of human aromatase by site directed mutagenesis. Eur J Biochem, 2002;269:1393-1405.
8. Reznik Y, Dehennin L, et al. Urinary nandrolone metabolites of endogenous origin in man: a confirmation by output regulation under human chorionic gonadotropin stimulation. J Clin Endocrinol Metab, 2001;86:146-50.
9. Hobbs CJ, Jones RE, et al. Nandrolone, a 19-nortestosterone, enhances insulin-independent glucose uptake in normal men. J Clin Endocrinol Metab, 1996;81:1582-5.
10. Dintinger T, Gaillard JL, et al. Androgen and 19-norandrogen aromatization by equine and human placental microsomes. J Steroid Biochem, 1989 Nov;33(5):949-54.
11. Moslemi S, Auvray P, et al. Structure-function relationships for equine and human aromatases. A comparative study. Ann NY Acad Sci, 1998;839:576-7.
12. Simpson ER, Davis SR. Minireview: aromatase and the regulation of estrogen biosynthesis— some new perspectives. Endocrinology, 2001;142(11):4589-94.
13. Gaillard JL, Silberzahn P. Aromatization of 19-norandrogens by equine testicular microsomes. J Biol Chem, 1987 Apr 25;262(12):5717-22.
14. Roselli CE. The effect of anabolic-androgenic steroids on aromatase activity and androgen receptor binding in the rat preoptic area. Brain Res, 1998 May 11;792(2):271-6.
15. Kuhl H, Wiegratz I. Can 19-nortestosterone derivatives be aromatized in the liver of adult humans? Are there clinical implications? Climacteric, 2007;10:344-53.
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No such thing as deca dick
only "I failed to keep e2 under control because I am lazy, didn't get blood tests and like to play guessing games with my hormones" dick
not sure if it's true but i once ran 600mg deca only cycle and never experienced the deca dick
now i'm on 300mg tren and my sex drive is down
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Anyone heard of Dr. Charles Yesalis?
And whom are the US olympic atheletea are going to?
Arnold mentoobs in his autobiography thar he did a show in hawai for free just so that he could catch up with the US Olympic team doctor who would be visiting there.
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ESF you're going to have to elaborate instead of just posting part of a book
You made no conclusion. Are you suggesting what I am saying is true or false? Because it's agreeing with what I am saying- failure to control estrogen
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ESF you're going to have to elaborate instead of just posting part of a book
You made no conclusion. Are you suggesting what I am saying is true or false? Because it's agreeing with what I am saying- failure to control estrogen
I've taken deca with a very minimal test amount and had floppy dick syndrome. I blame it on prolactin rather than estrogen even though I didn't get blood tests. The reason being that prolactin is released by the body after an orgasm so imagine walking around with elevated of prolactin levels all day :-\
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I've taken deca with a very minimal test amount and had floppy dick syndrome. I blame it on prolactin rather than estrogen even though I didn't get blood tests. The reason being that prolactin is released by the body after an orgasm so imagine walking around with elevated of prolactin levels all day :-\
Yeah it's progesterone, not prolactin I believe but your point still stands
Controlling estrogen will also control progesterone. It's all on the same axis. It's unusual for someone to have low estrogen and high progesterone
This is why you need to get blood tests instead of playing guessing games
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Yeah it's progesterone, not prolactin I believe but your point still stands
Controlling estrogen will also control progesterone. It's all on the same axis. It's unusual for someone to have low estrogen and high progesterone
This is why you need to get blood tests instead of playing guessing games
yeah I've heard people say as long as you control estrogen you won't get any prolactin/progesterone related sides but its just not true. Countless guys including myself have tried avoiding deca sides by simply using an ai but it did absolutely nothing.
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....but you didn't take blood tests
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....but you didn't take blood tests
I can see the possibility of nandrolone exerting effects on estrogen receptors without the need to go through the aromatase enzyme so an ai would do fuck all. But, why do people resort to a dopamine agonist for deca gyno and actually have the problem resolved?
The deca dick...I can understand that even if it was estrogen related something like caber would still give you a boost in libido.
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I've already explained it all
Yes, other things work. Doesn't mean that estrogen wasn't controlled properly
If you're playing guessing games with your hormones then expect issues
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Yeah it's progesterone, not prolactin I believe but your point still stands
Controlling estrogen will also control progesterone. It's all on the same axis. It's unusual for someone to have low estrogen and high progesterone
This is why you need to get blood tests instead of playing guessing games
Progesterone is bro science from forums about tren and deca.
Deca and Tren cause prolactin issues that is why prami and caber reduce the gyno alongside estrogen control but not solo estrogen control.. it is also why people get soft dicks and lactation due to elevated prolactin. Prolactin is necessary for mammary development and the main cause for gyno growth alongside estrogen.
Also as far as sex drive, tren makes me a raging animal, deca makes me limp but gives me awesome size gains... but not cool when you want to go wild in bed lol. Anything raising dopamine and viagra helps though.
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Progesterone is bro science from forums about tren and deca.
Deca and Tren cause prolactin issues that is why prami and caber reduce the gyno alongside estrogen control but not solo estrogen control.. it is also why people get soft dicks and lactation due to elevated prolactin. Prolactin is necessary for mammary development and the main cause for gyno growth alongside estrogen.
Also as far as sex drive, tren makes me a raging animal, deca makes me limp but gives me awesome size gains... but not cool when you want to go wild in bed lol. Anything raising dopamine and viagra helps though.
Yeah correct I got these the wrong way around in my confusion
So apologies for that rant
But the main point still stands, don't play guessing games with your hormones and you won't get problems. Control your estrogen correctly. If you have no sex drive then something is wrong and you need to address it. It's not the hormones fault or the hormone that does this it's simply failure to keep your hormones in the right ranges.
Personally I wouldn't use prami or caber because of IGF-1 depression. If estrogen is in the correct range or even on the lower side then the other hormones will likely fall into place as well. I've never seen a blood test that showed one high and not the other, just people playing guessing games lol
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ESF you're going to have to elaborate instead of just posting part of a book
You made no conclusion. Are you suggesting what I am saying is true or false? Because it's agreeing with what I am saying- failure to control estrogen
didn't really feel like elaborating. lol. just saw some revelant stuff and copy/pasted.
I don't believe the problem with deca or tren relates to estrogen.
I have no evidence to back it up, just personal experience.
like I said, I've never had 'deca dick' from deca or npp... even in 1g+ doses.... but I do experience it from tren (even at 4g/wk test with 1mg/day adex or 25mg/day aromasin), which I "treat" with prami 2x/wk and either 25mg/day proviron or 50mg winstrol/day.. or a couple hundred mg's of masteron/wk.
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But the main point still stands, don't play guessing games with your hormones and you won't get problems.
This makes no sense at all. If I know the cause of a headache will it magically prevent it from happening and make it go away?
If someone (me) had gyno symptoms from deca, tried letro and got nothing but achy joints, and flare up went away only after taking caber what would a logical person with half a brain attribute the problem to?
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This makes no sense at all. If I know the cause of a headache will it magically prevent it from happening and make it go away?
If someone (me) had gyno symptoms from deca, tried letro and got nothing but achy joints, and flare up went away only after taking caber what would a logical person with half a brain attribute the problem to?
Letro is a pretty terrible drug as well. Progesterone is the issue so prami will work obviously. But prami is not a good drug. There is not really much else I can say without blood tests lol. Don't play guessing games with hormones. If estrogen is tight then you will not get the progesterone issues. You could even deliberately do the cycle and get some blood tests done when you get the sides. Aromasin and arimidex in the right doses will sort it. There is also the issue of ratios of drugs, maybe you need to increase test and decrease deca or vice versa. Sometimes you need to just remove test. It's pretty individual. Others will add dbol and they are fine. This is why you get blood tests, you need to know what the issue is! But when estrogen is good the rest will fall into place I promise lol
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Progesterone is bro science from forums about tren and deca.
Deca and Tren cause prolactin issues that is why prami and caber reduce the gyno alongside estrogen control but not solo estrogen control.. it is also why people get soft dicks and lactation due to elevated prolactin. Prolactin is necessary for mammary development and the main cause for gyno growth alongside estrogen.
Also as far as sex drive, tren makes me a raging animal, deca makes me limp but gives me awesome size gains... but not cool when you want to go wild in bed lol. Anything raising dopamine and viagra helps though.
great post
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Letro is a pretty terrible drug as well. Progesterone is the issue so prami will work obviously. But prami is not a good drug. There is not really much else I can say without blood tests lol. Don't play guessing games with hormones. If estrogen is tight then you will not get the progesterone issues. You could even deliberately do the cycle and get some blood tests done when you get the sides. Aromasin and arimidex in the right doses will sort it. There is also the issue of ratios of drugs, maybe you need to increase test and decrease deca or vice versa. Sometimes you need to just remove test. It's pretty individual. Others will add dbol and they are fine. This is why you get blood tests, you need to know what the issue is! But when estrogen is good the rest will fall into place I promise lol
All terrible drugs lol...but I thought I'd mention trying letro since it is one of the strongest ais out there, and if anything would help lowering estrogen it would be that drug.
But it leaves the question that if in fact nandrolone raises estrogen through other methods, such as what esfitness posted....how on earth does one go about controlling that?
An aromatase inhibitor would do absolutely nothing when a drug doesn't need the aromatase enzyme to raise estrogen....
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All terrible drugs lol...but I thought I'd mention trying letro since it is one of the strongest ais out there, and if anything would help lowering estrogen it would be that drug.
But it leaves the question that if in fact nandrolone raises estrogen through other methods, such as what esfitness posted....how on earth does one go about controlling that?
An aromatase inhibitor would do absolutely nothing when a drug doesn't need the aromatase enzyme to raise estrogen....
I still am not convinced nandrolone or any nortestosterone based drugs are necessary at all for male bodybuilds. With all the other drugs that are available and that imo work way fucking better, why bother with them? If you use them at dosages where those sides are not an issue then fine, but going into megadosing and risking sides that there is little of nothing you can do to prevent is not worth it. Stick with test and other dht based drugs.
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All terrible drugs lol...but I thought I'd mention trying letro since it is one of the strongest ais out there, and if anything would help lowering estrogen it would be that drug.
But it leaves the question that if in fact nandrolone raises estrogen through other methods, such as what esfitness posted....how on earth does one go about controlling that?
An aromatase inhibitor would do absolutely nothing when a drug doesn't need the aromatase enzyme to raise estrogen....
Use A SERM? Would that accomplish this?
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Yeah correct I got these the wrong way around in my confusion
So apologies for that rant
But the main point still stands, don't play guessing games with your hormones and you won't get problems. Control your estrogen correctly. If you have no sex drive then something is wrong and you need to address it. It's not the hormones fault or the hormone that does this it's simply failure to keep your hormones in the right ranges.
Personally I wouldn't use prami or caber because of IGF-1 depression. If estrogen is in the correct range or even on the lower side then the other hormones will likely fall into place as well. I've never seen a blood test that showed one high and not the other, just people playing guessing games lol
what about bromocriptine?
Now ronnie by the end of his career had nerve problems. He said jay will never get back into shape for the 2013 O, and that is what exactly happened. Could those nerve disturbances be because of long term usage of bromoccriptine/prami/caber?
Also, elevating B6 levels reduces prolactin. There are studies which state that even elevated levels of B6, a naturally occuring vitamin can cause nerve problems.
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Yeah correct I got these the wrong way around in my confusion
So apologies for that rant
But the main point still stands, don't play guessing games with your hormones and you won't get problems. Control your estrogen correctly. If you have no sex drive then something is wrong and you need to address it. It's not the hormones fault or the hormone that does this it's simply failure to keep your hormones in the right ranges.
Personally I wouldn't use prami or caber because of IGF-1 depression. If estrogen is in the correct range or even on the lower side then the other hormones will likely fall into place as well. I've never seen a blood test that showed one high and not the other, just people playing guessing games lol
Prami raises GH, caber lowers IGF1. I had a thread on the effects of prami once.
The thing I dont like about prami is how it makes me feel drowsy, not as responsive, tired, even if i take before bed.. some of the side effects subside but still... also i hate how it kills appetite.. useful on a cut i guess.. but not normally throughout the year or when trying to bulk... sucks big time... oh and prami lowers thyroid which sucks too.. but then there is a sudden burst of hyper activity when seizing which sucks kind of too.
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Use A SERM? Would that accomplish this?
which is why I usually include 10mg nolva. "just in case" when I need to be hard.
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what about bromocriptine?
Now ronnie by the end of his career had nerve problems. He said jay will never get back into shape for the 2013 O, and that is what exactly happened. Could those nerve disturbances be because of long term usage of bromoccriptine/prami/caber?
Also, elevating B6 levels reduces prolactin. There are studies which state that even elevated levels of B6, a naturally occuring vitamin can cause nerve problems.
jay's had nerve problems since '01/02. look back to 'I think' the 02 Arnold.. maybe 03 Arnold. one half of his body was wayyyy smaller due to nerve issues in his back/neck. this was long before prami/caber/bromo was popular.
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jay's had nerve problems since '01/02. look back to 'I think' the 02 Arnold.. maybe 03 Arnold. one half of his body was wayyyy smaller due to nerve issues in his back/neck. this was long before prami/caber/bromo was popular.
is there a way to fix that?i guess not.
i have the same issue, ever since some certain operation.
cant flex some muscles like before, theres just no "connection".
sometimes so bad that i have to rearrange my back, theres a tension tswisting the whole back somewhat.
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why not
test/deca 6 weeks
test/eq/tren 6 weeks
dbol 4 weeks preworkout switched for test suspension pre workout indefinitely
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All terrible drugs lol...but I thought I'd mention trying letro since it is one of the strongest ais out there, and if anything would help lowering estrogen it would be that drug.
But it leaves the question that if in fact nandrolone raises estrogen through other methods, such as what esfitness posted....how on earth does one go about controlling that?
An aromatase inhibitor would do absolutely nothing when a drug doesn't need the aromatase enzyme to raise estrogen....
Listen, I'm not going to repeat this again.
The dick problems are not "caused" by deca or tren. It's a failure to keep your hormones in check by playing guessing games. If estrogen is in line, most other things will be as well. Yeah there are plenty of other things. If you're cool with doing them then fine.
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Prami raises GH, caber lowers IGF1. I had a thread on the effects of prami once.
The thing I dont like about prami is how it makes me feel drowsy, not as responsive, tired, even if i take before bed.. some of the side effects subside but still... also i hate how it kills appetite.. useful on a cut i guess.. but not normally throughout the year or when trying to bulk... sucks big time... oh and prami lowers thyroid which sucks too.. but then there is a sudden burst of hyper activity when seizing which sucks kind of too.
Sweet bro
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i think u can get prety big on nothing but test
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Listen, I'm not going to repeat this again.
The dick problems are not "caused" by deca or tren. It's a failure to keep your hormones in check by playing guessing games. If estrogen is in line, most other things will be as well. Yeah there are plenty of other things. If you're cool with doing them then fine.
ok chad Nichols ::)
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is there a way to fix that?i guess not.
i have the same issue, ever since some certain operation.
cant flex some muscles like before, theres just no "connection".
sometimes so bad that i have to rearrange my back, theres a tension tswisting the whole back somewhat.
I doubt it. if there were, i'd think jay would've had his fixed.. since jay does spend a lot of time and money on physical therapy stuff, if anybody would take it seriously and treated it, it'd be him.
nerve damage is a shitty deal.. u just gotta work around it. took my years to work around nerve damage in my chest due to my fractured sternum. now I have a degenerated C5 disk, and two compressed discs between my shoulder blades, and one of my lats don't 'pull out' or release like the other does.
just wear and tear I guess after doing this for about 20yrs. even trying to break up scar tissue doesn't seem to help much.
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I doubt it. if there were, i'd think jay would've had his fixed.. since jay does spend a lot of time and money on physical therapy stuff, if anybody would take it seriously and treated it, it'd be him.
nerve damage is a shitty deal.. u just gotta work around it. took my years to work around nerve damage in my chest due to my fractured sternum. now I have a degenerated C5 disk, and two compressed discs between my shoulder blades, and one of my lats don't 'pull out' or release like the other does.
just wear and tear I guess after doing this for about 20yrs. even trying to break up scar tissue doesn't seem to help much.
dont you think this is somehow related to your powerlifting approach to training?
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i think u can get prety big on nothing but test
yeah true.
btw on the tren issue, both progesterone and prolactine issues can happen.
I doubt it. if there were, i'd think jay would've had his fixed.. since jay does spend a lot of time and money on physical therapy stuff, if anybody would take it seriously and treated it, it'd be him.
nerve damage is a shitty deal.. u just gotta work around it. took my years to work around nerve damage in my chest due to my fractured sternum. now I have a degenerated C5 disk, and two compressed discs between my shoulder blades, and one of my lats don't 'pull out' or release like the other does.
just wear and tear I guess after doing this for about 20yrs. even trying to break up scar tissue doesn't seem to help much.
yah i figures, if ronnie and jay couldnt fix theirs, it wont happen.
agreed, its not just one muscle, it often drags down whole areas, same for me ,one side of the lats,in rdb pose i have to watch it in a mirror or the one lat will not go "out" just as you described too.
they do get a pump,though, its workable.
weirdest thing of all is, its also happening in the legs.just quads, but its happening.
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all studies i can find of tren is on cattle.
these dont mean shit, cattle isnt human.
so, nobody knows for sure.
but its notorious for bitch tits.
certainly amongst the unhonourable top drugs which can cause tits.
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I still am not convinced nandrolone or any nortestosterone based drugs are necessary at all for male bodybuilds. With all the other drugs that are available and that imo work way fucking better, why bother with them? If you use them at dosages where those sides are not an issue then fine, but going into megadosing and risking sides that there is little of nothing you can do to prevent is not worth it. Stick with test and other dht based drugs.
I know what you mean...the sides are much more more easier to control with these drugs.
what about bromocriptine?
Now ronnie by the end of his career had nerve problems. He said jay will never get back into shape for the 2013 O, and that is what exactly happened. Could those nerve disturbances be because of long term usage of bromoccriptine/prami/caber?
Also, elevating B6 levels reduces prolactin. There are studies which state that even elevated levels of B6, a naturally occuring vitamin can cause nerve problems.
I got an ebook on bromo if intersted...shoot me a pm with an email addy if you want it.
Use A SERM? Would that accomplish this?
I'm inclined to say the resulting estrogen would be much less than with aromitizing drugs but technically it should work for gyno. Wouldn't do much else for other estrogen related sides but if caused by any amount converted from nandrolone or other 19-nors, than one must be extremely sensitive. I know for myself, when test was kept low the issues I had were due to prolactin not estrogen. But yes no bloods so I'm just "playing guessing games" lol
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dont you think this is somehow related to your powerlifting approach to training?
the compressed and degenerated discs in my my neck and back? yea. most likely. but I only did the powerlifting thing for 4yrs or so, and I'd already 'shrunk' about .75 of an inch before then.. now I'm down about 1.5"... my last high school physical I was 6' 1.5" , now I'm about 6.25" . due to squatting and deadlifting I'd suppose..
powerlifting helped my chest however.. since I'd always benched like a bodybuilder in the past, until I developed a bursa in my shoulder and couldn't press anything more than 10lbs without feeling like an ice-pic was being stabbed into my shoulder... started training with powerlifters and benching like powerlifters, and my bench press improved DRAMATICALLY, as well as my chest development and ability to involve pecs in pressing.
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it's the simplest and most effective combo of drugs to add size.
personally, i'd prefer to see 2g of test, 1g of deca and 100mg dbol per day with as much gh as you can afford for as long as you can afford it.... something like 16 weeks preferably.
keep your kcals high enough to grow and keep putting food in you every couple hours.
and when it's time to cut down and get hard, replace the deca with tren and replace the dbol with anadrol.
what gh do you recommend
ansome is available but you don't hear much about it anymore
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what gh do you recommend
ansome is available but you don't hear much about it anymore
humatrope, norditropin, and serostim... in that order.
most my clients get their gh from legit pharma sources/docs.
the Chinese generic gh's change too often.. mixed reviews, ect... drop 2g's one month on supposedly good black tops that give great results at 10iu, or 2g's the next month on blue tops with supposedly great reviews that you need 15iu's to get numb hands and high blood sugar.
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how would you grade pharm grade to generic?5iu pharm grade is better than 10iu generic?what's your take?
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how would you grade pharm grade to generic?5iu pharm grade is better than 10iu generic?what's your take?
I would be intrested in efs take also and what generics he would choose if that was hi only maybe we cans start a thread
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I would be intrested in efs take also and what generics he would choose if that was hi only maybe we cans start a thread
He is right with generics it is not consistent so basically you have to do the research to know what is circulating and what has the best reviews at the time and know that what you get today does not translate into a good purchase 3 years down the road.
I like to be on top of things here and by the looks of it the top 2 generics that carry over 5000 reviews in the last 24 months are riptropins and hygetropins. Reviews are from users all over the world and are shown on many different sites. Some are good reviews, some are bad, I would only look into the generics that have at least a 90% good review total.
Do your research and you will not get ripped off.
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humatrope, norditropin, and serostim... in that order.
most my clients get their gh from legit pharma sources/docs.
the Chinese generic gh's change too often.. mixed reviews, ect... drop 2g's one month on supposedly good black tops that give great results at 10iu, or 2g's the next month on blue tops with supposedly great reviews that you need 15iu's to get numb hands and high blood sugar.
thank god someone finally says it like it is,theres nothing to add.
chinese gh can work, but never as good as the pharmacy stuff, and you simply never know.
if one cant afford the pharma gh, he cant afford the lifestyle most likely and its best to just stay away altogether imo
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ok chad Nichols ::)
:D
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Prami raises GH, caber lowers IGF1. I had a thread on the effects of prami once.
The thing I dont like about prami is how it makes me feel drowsy, not as responsive, tired, even if i take before bed.. some of the side effects subside but still... also i hate how it kills appetite.. useful on a cut i guess.. but not normally throughout the year or when trying to bulk... sucks big time... oh and prami lowers thyroid which sucks too.. but then there is a sudden burst of hyper activity when seizing which sucks kind of too.
post a link to your thread :)
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He is right with generics it is not consistent so basically you have to do the research to know what is circulating and what has the best reviews at the time and know that what you get today does not translate into a good purchase 3 years down the road.
I like to be on top of things here and by the looks of it the top 2 generics that carry over 5000 reviews in the last 24 months are riptropins and hygetropins. Reviews are from users all over the world and are shown on many different sites. Some are good reviews, some are bad, I would only look into the generics that have at least a 90% good review total.
Do your research and you will not get ripped off.
I can't say I've heard too many bad things about rips... but I have heard some "I dunno, I think it's good" stuff off and on about hyge's. i'd be leary of Chinese gh being ghrp2 or something that'll still produce bloat and water gain and possibly a lil bit numb hands and better sleep.
if I were gonna go with Chinese, i'd probably go with rips.
and surely not kigtropin.. all the stuff about 'we add igf-1 & insulin to the kigtropin' makes me super suspicious. I don't want anything BUT gh in my gh.
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thank god someone finally says it like it is,theres nothing to add.
chinese gh can work, but never as good as the pharmacy stuff, and you simply never know.
if one cant afford the pharma gh, he cant afford the lifestyle most likely and its best to just stay away altogether imo
the argument for ''Pharm grade or nothing'' makes absolutely no sense, think about it, blood work does not lie and I have seen the highest insane numbers off the chart that will make a doctors jaw drop off of generics. I know you prefer Pharm and that is an individual choice and preference but the bottom line is some good generics, not only work but work well.
Research on reviews and rep is the key.
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the argument for ''Pharm grade or nothing'' makes absolutely no sense, think about it, blood work does not lie and I have seen the highest insane numbers off the chart that will make a doctors jaw drop off of generics. I know you prefer Pharm and that is an individual choice and preference but the bottom line is some good generics, not only work but work well.
Research on reviews and rep is the key.
Cost is a big factor too.
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What do you guys think of Novo's?
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the argument for ''Pharm grade or nothing'' makes absolutely no sense, think about it, blood work does not lie and I have seen the highest insane numbers off the chart that will make a doctors jaw drop off of generics. I know you prefer Pharm and that is an individual choice and preference but the bottom line is some good generics, not only work but work well.
Research on reviews and rep is the key.
ah thats true, what i meant, me personaly i dont have time for hassle asking 10 ppl if they know someone with good chinese.
theres good ones out there, but me, i wouldnt bother, i mean hyges, one batch looks like this, then the next one looks different, just even thinking about it makes my head hurt.
its individual choice, here theres doctors, where you can just walk in their office and get nordis, the orange pen :D
im neutral on the matter, i dont even use gh anymore.
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ah thats true, what i meant, me personaly i dont have time for hassle asking 10 ppl if they know someone with good chinese.
theres good ones out there, but me, i wouldnt bother, i mean hyges, one batch looks like this, then the next one looks different, just even thinking about it makes my head hurt.
its individual choice, here theres doctors, where you can just walk in their office and get nordis, the orange pen :D
im neutral on the matter, i dont even use gh anymore.
which is what the majority of my clients use.. the purple version though. at least with the pen, you know what you're getting.
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ah thats true, what i meant, me personaly i dont have time for hassle asking 10 ppl if they know someone with good chinese.
theres good ones out there, but me, i wouldnt bother, i mean hyges, one batch looks like this, then the next one looks different, just even thinking about it makes my head hurt.
its individual choice, here theres doctors, where you can just walk in their office and get nordis, the orange pen :D
im neutral on the matter, i dont even use gh anymore.
oh yes, I see your point, you are right, it is inconvenient and time consuming for the average person.
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oh yes, I see your point, you are right, it is inconvenient and time consuming for the average person.
Gal is talking about the swiss way of life here.
Damn....how much money you got hold up there in those notorious Swiss bank accounts??
;D
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The reason why pharma Gh is "more" reliable than generic is because those pharma companies have a whole supply chain in place which gets you the stuff right from production your source in conditions suited for the storage of the GH.
Chinese generics have a disadvantage here. The stuff might degenerate a little or even completely.
Most of the shipping companies provide cold storage at a premium cost.
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What do you guys think of Novo's?
I used a ton of Novos for about a year and never had any complaints.
They scored pretty well on the GH serum test as well.
8)
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I used a ton of Novos for about a year and never had any complaints.
They scored pretty well on the GH serum test as well.
8)
Thx for response, I've heard good things too man
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I too have heard only a friends distant friend's brothers friend get a shitty novo.
Novo is pretty good stuff and also the nordipens.