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Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: Wiggs on February 11, 2006, 10:55:56 AM
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many of them say? I remember on a post on the MM board TP said that drugs are only about 10% and training and nutrition are the other 90% ( I could be worng on the numbers but it's pretty close). Many other pros will echo the same.
I don't know if they do this to protect the young kids out there, or they really believe the crap they spew. We have seen what Flex (who was't even natural when he made his "natural" comeback looked like and for a more dramatic example look at Mike Morris recently.
I'll be the first one to say bodybuilding is not all drugs but I honestly believe that drugs play an equal part to the training and nutrition so what, 33.333333%? In addition to this look at what happened when they tried drug testing back in the early 90s? I forget what Olympia it was I was too young (going on 27) but everyone looked like crap and then the drug testing magically disappears because the "Big Wigs" know.......no drugs, =freaks, =no fans, =no money, =no IFBB.
I'm just getting sick and tired of the pros saying thay only play a small part. Drugs will do something training and nutrition can't. If you have crap symmetry or frame or whatever you all want to call it. You can add loads of muscle and people will forget about the asthetically pleasing part. See JP Fux, Art Atwood, Jumbo Palumbo, Greg Kovacs, and others for examples. If these guys and other didn't possess the mass they had they would have never gone pro. I will admit all these guy looked much better when they won their pro cards with the exception of Palumbo of course. What does that say about bodybuilding? Well, it says two things, if I don't have the genetics just add a bunch of muscle, keep my belly somewhat in tact (unless I'm Mr. Olympia j/k....but not really) come in ripped and your successful. How will I add this muscle?.....Food, training and drugs, drugs drugs. Am I "hating" on the above gentlemen? Nope they are currently more successful than I am in terms of money. I'm just a fan evaluating our sport and giving facts. On the flip side you have guys like Melvin, Darrem, Mark Dugdale, Ronnie Rockel, Dexter, and Shawn who have been blessed with an asthetically pleasing physique but because they don't weigh XXX they'll never be Mr. Olympia.
To kind of get away from subject, Shawn Ray had been the most out spoken guy about this and I had and still have alot of respect for him because of this but it was sad to see a legend of our sport be forced out because he came to terms that he'd never be Mr. O because of the crappy judging system (By the way I couldn't believe the explanation on the posing round I nearly sh*t myself when they admitted it was just another muscularity round, I'll do post on that another time.)
In conclusion, I have the utmost respect for the pro bodybuilders, if I offended any of them, sorry but what I speak is the truth, I might not be a pro but I've been around bodybuilding and bodybuilders for over 10 years and in this short ten years I've seen alot and heard alot. When I post I like to try and stick to 2/3 facts and the rest opinions.
Well this rant was theraputic, I'm sure I'll get some flames but I welcome them.
See you at FIBO
Excuse the typos I'm too lazy to go back and correct anything...Ciao
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I agree.
It's at least 30-50% of responsible for most success in the upper echelons of bodybuilding. You have to have decent genetics regardless, but once you are there on the stage alot of it is training, nutrition and the amount of androgens you ingest.
It's basic science.
DIV
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you gotta have the right shape and structure too
E
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genetics play a bigger part than all that other stuff
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Drugs in bodybuilding............ .......no way!
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There is zero incentive to admit this... so don't hold your breath waiting for the admissions. You know the truth. Move on.
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genetics play a bigger part than all that other stuff
very true.
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Think about it. These drugs were made to work on people with wasting ilnesses like aids. Imagine what they do to someone who eats and lifts weights.Top bbers deny this because it cuts into the believed myths about bbing work ethics and healthy living.
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drugs are impotant...However drugs alone won't make you win contests. Case in point: dave polumbo, MArkus Ruhl, Heiko, JP flux. These guys have terrible genetics.
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i don't think they have terrible genitics.
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Drugs dont win contests but lack of Drug Testing certainly challenges ones "Line I wont Cross" school of thought. For some there is no line, for others there's a limit. That being said, with no Testing, the door is open to walk in or out regarding competition. If the Heat is to Hot in the Kitchen, get out. If you stay, you know the deal.
At the end of the day, I never cared what others took, oly what I was willing and Not Willing to do to be the best I can. When i felt I accomplished that, I left sans a Sandow but my health in tact and my accomplishments worthy of discussion.
Why would Pro's admit to Drugs and their role unless they felt they were being cheated because of the lack of Testing?
Everyone knows the deal, therefore, none of the Pro's talk about them. All the drugs in the world would not "Make" someone better than Ronnie, Dorian or Haney. Sure they have a percentage impact but please, not many people have the work ethic, dedication, genetics or the time to be half of what these men were.
We can blame drugs or point at others who use them, bottom line, until or unless the Testing resumes, we are all whistling in the wind.......... :-\
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drugs are impotant...However drugs alone won't make you win contests. Case in point: dave polumbo, MArkus Ruhl, Heiko, JP flux. These guys have terrible genetics.
Terrible genetics? They are huge pro' s and therefore have the ablity to hold a ton of muscle. Can you do that on steroids? How many of your average juicers at your gym look like them? How many fans at Bodybuilding shows are as large as them?......Only their fellow pro or top amatures.
So, no they do not have terrible genetics....
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Terrible genetics? They are huge pro' s and therefore have the ablity to hold a ton of muscle. Can you do that on steroids? How many of your average juicers at your gym look like them? How many fans at Bodybuilding shows are as large as them?......Only their fellow pro or top amatures.
So, no they do not have terrible genetics....
i suppose they got beaten with the ugly stick..
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i suppose they got beaten with the ugly stick..
They are bodybuilders, not male models....
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until or unless the Testing resumes, we are all whistling in the wind.......... :-\
Shawn, why don't you call for testing at your own contest, the Colorado Pro?
You'll put your name and face on a contest, but won't use this positional power to change things for the better?
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Terrible genetics? They are huge pro' s and therefore have the ablity to hold a ton of muscle. Can you do that on steroids? How many of your average juicers at your gym look like them? How many fans at Bodybuilding shows are as large as them?......Only their fellow pro or top amatures.
So, no they do not have terrible genetics....
If you want a recipe for a pro I guess it would go something like, consistant training nutrition, and drugs. Key word being CONSISTANT. Then you gotta have decent genetics. What is meant by genetics? Well, in terms of bodybuilding it means the ability to build and hold onto muscle, response to "drugs", asthetics, and then conditioning, (some people bodies will only get so dry in terms of conditioning ie: Melvin Anthony). It's simple but that's it.
Many of us don't have the consistancy part down that's why when it comes to the elite pros it's their constancy ie: Ronnie, Jay and Dorian that sets these guys apart from us normal folk........in addition to their genetics of course.
240 read the latest edition of MD, you start drug testing shows, you get just average looking guys on stage and I myself will not pay to see something average. Neither will about 75% of the audience. An unfortunate catch 22
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240 read the latest edition of MD, you start drug testing shows, you get just average looking guys on stage and I myself will not pay to see something average. Neither will about 75% of the audience.
I agree, drugs are required and drugs are necessary for business. I just dislike reading hypocrites talking about "there are too much drugs in this sport", then putting on pro shows this May 12 in Colorado.
Or, those that brag about gear use, then enter Musclemania shows.
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you mean like Matt T.?
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I met an old pro who told me that he maintained his body with a "Supply" of
roids. He was the first pro, that admitted this to me. Not that I was shocked by the roid fact, but by his honest admission. This happened when mi-espousa and I were at the 05 Olympia Expo
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Has anyone considered that if average looking guys were winning contests maybe more of the spectators would considered competing??
The Luke
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Has anyone considered that if average looking guys were winning contests maybe more of the spectators would considered competing??
The Luke
The bar has been rising higher and higher each year. What your saying is that the amount of muscle on the competitors would have to be less and the "sport" is called bodybuilding. That wont work.
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I think there's two comon points that try to be made in debates of this fashion.
Drugs aren't what make pro's, it's only a small part when compared to the work ethic and dedication it takes. Anyone can take drugs, its the hardwork and genetics that sets people apart.
Drugs do play a role, obviously gear can put a lot of mass on a persons frame. It's easy for outsiders looking in to assume its all drugs because that individual casually lifts weights and isn't nearly as big. It really comes down to work ethic I think.
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Its 50/50 Genetics, Diet,Hunger to lift weights properly and efficiantly.Then its Drugs for the remaining 50%no matter how good your genetics are no drugs you will not be competetive sad really.
Steroids in general i have know problem with but Insulin,HGH,IGF scare the living shit out of me anyone with some knowledge could they ansew how much weight do you gain just with these drugs not including roids.
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Pros don't need to admit that drugs are a big part of the sport. It's pretty obvious. But even with drug use/abuse, you don't get to be Mr. Olympia without doing things like 100 yard lunges with 3 plates or investing the kind of time and effort that gave Shawn Ray one of the best physiques in bodybuilding history.
I agree that testing is the real issue.
Drugs aren't just a big part of bodybuilding. Football, baseball, basketball, track, and even cycling all have their fair share of abusers. Only track and cycling, of all sports, are serious about drug testing IMO.
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Shawn, why don't you call for testing at your own contest, the Colorado Pro?
You'll put your name and face on a contest, but won't use this positional power to change things for the better?
Drug testing is very expensive and cost thousands of dollars. Even with all of that, there are still ways to get away with it. Read some of my article in my "Keeping it Real Newsletter"
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Drug testing is very expensive and cost thousands of dollars. Even with all of that, there are still ways to get away with it. Read some of my article in my "Keeping it Real Newsletter"
Vince, you know what I hate more then self appointed guru's? You pretending that you're one. ;D
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first we have to define
what is a drug and
what is nutrition
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If you want a recipe for a pro I guess it would go something like, consistant training nutrition, and drugs. Key word being CONSISTANT. Then you gotta have decent genetics. What is meant by genetics? Well, in terms of bodybuilding it means the ability to build and hold onto muscle, response to "drugs", asthetics, and then conditioning, (some people bodies will only get so dry in terms of conditioning ie: Melvin Anthony). It's simple but that's it.
Many of us don't have the consistancy part down that's why when it comes to the elite pros it's their constancy ie: Ronnie, Jay and Dorian that sets these guys apart from us normal folk........in addition to their genetics of course.
240 read the latest edition of MD, you start drug testing shows, you get just average looking guys on stage and I myself will not pay to see something average. Neither will about 75% of the audience. An unfortunate catch 22
....read the bolded part...THAT'S the problem. What makes you think that these are 'average' looking guys?....it's relative.
People say they don't want to pay money to see a Mr Olympia contest if a some jacked up dude in their local gym is BIGGER....
But now, we get the opportunity to REDEFINE what constitutes the sport! We can all agree that symmetry, proportion and size are what makes a Mr. O...but does size outweigh the former?...recently, YES. We all know that this has been the case, where you get guys turning pro without genetics needed to win (but still remain competitive).
The difference between some huge jacked dude in the gym and a PROPER Mr O is GENETICS...so what if you're huge, but have no sym or proportion? THAT'S what we should be rewarding!
But because of people not willing to pay for that ideal, the system gives the majortiy what they want....freaky size to sell tickets! The judging reflects this, and we get what we get.
JUDGING STANDARDS need to be changed. Shawn, drug testing will NOT work because you know that GH is undetectable, and insulin and a boatload of others are difficult as well. So establishing "how much is too much" is just going to cause more headaches. But you know more than most how difficult it is to change the judging standard! Paying fans are what ultimately dictate the 'judging standard'...it's hard to reward something that 'nobody' is willing to see.
But I say, there IS a market of the REAL ideals of bodybuilding, it's just that the IFBB hasn't got the brains to figure it out. Perhaps this new federation will do it.
Drug testing would be nice, but it's such a hard battle, and even though I'd pay to watch purely natural bodybuilding, it seems the majority do NOT. So you'll never get those big sponsors into bodybuilding period (Nike, others) and you don't get mainstream access.
I'm happy to say that I can accept the drugs to a degree, but ultimately the judging is what needs to be changed.
Want to get rid of GH?...start REALLY marking down extended bellies!
Want to get rid of diuretics?...start REALLY marking down extreme definition and shredded glutes!
CHANGE THE JUDGING STANDARD.....rant complete.
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Didn't they recently develop a test that can detect GH?
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How many of us on this and other boards like this one can say to ourselves "I really want to look like one of the top pros"? If you do then step up, invest the money, do the "gear", train and eat all day, next step Olympia.
I read numerous posts on the freakish size but it appears that as a whole most perfer the Shawn Ray, Darrem Charles type physique. Show a picture to someone that doesn't follow bodybuilding much and ask them which they perfer, the Ronnie/Jay physique or the Shawn Ray/Darrem Charles style physique and we all know the answer.
Pro BBer's will never make the money they deserve until they really come out of the bigger at all costs mentality and do the thing that will put butts in the seats at the pro shows. This sport will continue to be a fringe sport until the pros themselves step up and say enough is enough. I would wager that if given a choice 95% of the pros would perfer to not take the quanity of "gear" they have to take to stay competitive.
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Genetics and drugs are far and away ahead of everythign else on the realm of what makes a pro a pro. Of course by genetics I also mean response to AAS.
Is training and dieting hard? Of course, but not too hard. Many people out there bust there ass to the piont of overtraining and eat like its a science and still work a full time job. Someone in this position with average genetics would still be barely in better shape than someone with great genetics who doesnt do shit. Its just the way it is.
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I think that gear plays a bigger part than people think; unfortunately the pros are the only ones to know this for fact, and, not being critical of them, but we will never know the truth...As far as genetics go...I'm sure that there are some guys in the NFL right now that, it they gave up football, trained and ate and did gear like it was thier job, would beat Coleman. They just chose to go down a different path. Too bad there is not some type of software out there that can run " what if" scenarios and give you an idea of what you would look like under certain conditions. Something similiar to what a plastic surgeon would use during a consultation.
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I think that gear plays a bigger part than people think; unfortunately the pros are the only ones to know this for fact, and, not being critical of them, but we will never know the truth...As far as genetics go...I'm sure that there are some guys in the NFL right now that, it they gave up football, trained and ate and did gear like it was thier job, would beat Coleman. They just chose to go down a different path. Too bad there is not some type of software out there that can run " what if" scenarios and give you an idea of what you would look like under certain conditions. Something similiar to what a plastic surgeon would use during a consultation.
Along the same lines, I was watching basketball and the announcer said that Shaq is 340 with 14% body fat. He seems to have the type of frame that can support alot more weight. I would love to see what would have happen if he dieted, trained and used "gear".
I am sure that there are other guys that fall into that category.
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Drugs dont win contests but lack of Drug Testing certainly challenges ones "Line I wont Cross" school of thought. For some there is no line, for others there's a limit. That being said, with no Testing, the door is open to walk in or out regarding competition. If the Heat is to Hot in the Kitchen, get out. If you stay, you know the deal.
At the end of the day, I never cared what others took, oly what I was willing and Not Willing to do to be the best I can. When i felt I accomplished that, I left sans a Sandow but my health in tact and my accomplishments worthy of discussion.
Why would Pro's admit to Drugs and their role unless they felt they were being cheated because of the lack of Testing?
Everyone knows the deal, therefore, none of the Pro's talk about them. All the drugs in the world would not "Make" someone better than Ronnie, Dorian or Haney. Sure they have a percentage impact but please, not many people have the work ethic, dedication, genetics or the time to be half of what these men were.
We can blame drugs or point at others who use them, bottom line, until or unless the Testing resumes, we are all whistling in the wind.......... :-\
Shawn,
How far do you think you could've gotten in bodybuilding had you remained completely natural?
Thanks in advance for the response.
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Shawn,
How far do you think you could've gotten in bodybuilding had you remained completely natural?
Thanks in advance for the response.
I wonder if Shawn had stayed natural all along, if he'd actually look BETTER today?
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Hell, if I'd only played the Lottery I wonder if I would have won?
Probably would have had better chances winning that than the Mr. O!
Point is, we can wonder about things all we want but that wont get us anywhere except where we are now........wondering :-\
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Along the same lines, I was watching basketball and the announcer said that Shaq is 340 with 14% body fat. He seems to have the type of frame that can support alot more weight. I would love to see what would have happen if he dieted, trained and used "gear".
I am sure that there are other guys that fall into that category.
I've heard commentators say the same thing about Shaq. (They get the information from him.) If Shaq is 340 then I'm 7'6". He is closer to 400 than 300. He was around 360+ in his last season with LA. He's in terrible shape now. I would be very surprised if his body fat is less than 20%.
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I feel it's being pretty unrealistic for the person that trains at a gym to say they want to look like the pros that they see in the magazines.People have to start realising that the pros in the magazines & on the contest stages don't have that totally ripped vascular look year round.To say they want to achieve the look of the old time bb'ers such as Reeves would be a more realistic goal for the avg. lifter imo.Of course that attitude changes if the gear use comes into play w/the persons training & their genetic capability to put on size.Again however, even the top pros don't look that great year round.
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I wonder if Shawn had stayed natural all along, if he'd actually look BETTER today?
Why are you dissing shawn's shape. He is still big, not really cut but I think he still looks good.
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Shawn,
I hear what you are saying, but I must say that discussing or testing seroids and BB is retarded. Lets face it, you used somethings I am sure. Perhaps not at the level of others but you did. I have always been impressed with your physique and look. Watched your countdown video and was more impressed with your demeanor and intelligence, which is why I couldnt understand that you would be advocating testing in a sport that literally hinges on some use of performance enhancing drugs. I am not natural if that is something anyone could be, and I firmly believe that drugs are a smaller portion of winning than say genetics which you and Flex rocked. someone mentioned ones responses to the aas. there are things i have taken and maybe got strong but no size and a friend takes and blow the freak up. and presentation on stage.
hell how many people are preparing right now for team U and used in the past to creat more muscularity or whatever and may have been "clean" for two years and pass the test. how many are hitting the stage and using growth?
its all bullshit. no to steroids that have minimal side effects and consequences in comparison to say alcohol, but alcohol has no positives. put the aas in the store and let people push. the olympics let you wear a special swimsuit that reduces friction or resistance in the water, is that natural?
the whole natural and not argument is for morons.
sorry didnt mean to get lost in my own bullshit.
Drugs dont win contests but lack of Drug Testing certainly challenges ones "Line I wont Cross" school of thought. For some there is no line, for others there's a limit. That being said, with no Testing, the door is open to walk in or out regarding competition. If the Heat is to Hot in the Kitchen, get out. If you stay, you know the deal.
At the end of the day, I never cared what others took, oly what I was willing and Not Willing to do to be the best I can. When i felt I accomplished that, I left sans a Sandow but my health in tact and my accomplishments worthy of discussion.
Why would Pro's admit to Drugs and their role unless they felt they were being cheated because of the lack of Testing?
Everyone knows the deal, therefore, none of the Pro's talk about them. All the drugs in the world would not "Make" someone better than Ronnie, Dorian or Haney. Sure they have a percentage impact but please, not many people have the work ethic, dedication, genetics or the time to be half of what these men were.
We can blame drugs or point at others who use them, bottom line, until or unless the Testing resumes, we are all whistling in the wind.......... :-\
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Drugs are more important than genetics!
Why I say so? Consider a competition with two guys that supposedly train and eat correctly. One with great genetics but natural, the other with poor genetics but juiced like a pro.
Who will win in your opinion, given the current judging system? >:(
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They are bodybuilders, not male models....
Agreed. It's always interesting to see how many men are concerned with the "looks" of Pro Bodybuilders. ;D
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Agreed. It's always interesting to see how many men are concerned with the "looks" of Pro Bodybuilders. ;D
Define the word model..
You have a preconceived notion of it that hinges on billboards and magazine ads. Anyone can be a model, Ronnie Coleman could be a model.
A bodybuilder is someone who lifts weights to transform their body, hence body building.
You can be a massive bodybuilder and a model.
I think the people who say "We want freaks and not model fags" are people who are insecure and choose to degrade society for valuing a body that's not as freaky as Markus Ruhl.
The point I'm making is that the sport isn't catering to the general public or the model look. It's always about bodybuilding, whether society's interest cater to the newest trend is not what bodybuilding is about, I think the style of physique shouldn't change. Certainly Ronnie Coleman being Mr. Olympia is indicative of bodybuildings seperance from society's ideal physique, you have nothing to worry about.
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Define the word model..
You have a preconceived notion of it that hinges on billboards and magazine ads. Anyone can be a model, Ronnie Coleman could be a model.
A bodybuilder is someone who lifts weights to transform their body, hence body building.
You can be a massive bodybuilder and a model.
I think the people who say "We want freaks and not model fags" are people who are insecure and choose to degrade society for valuing a body that's not as freaky as Markus Ruhl.
The point I'm making is that the sport isn't catering to the general public or the model look. It's always about bodybuilding, whether society's interest cater to the newest trend is not what bodybuilding is about, I think the style of physique shouldn't change. Certainly Ronnie Coleman being Mr. Olympia is indicative of bodybuildings seperance from society's ideal physique, you have nothing to worry about.
are you a moron or do you just play one on the internet?
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They like to make you believe they train harder than amatuers.
In actuality they just have better genetics, take large amounts of juice, however I'm sure their nutrition is better as well.
They desperately want recognition for working hard because they know what they do isn't special.
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A lot of you guys are full of shit.
Better genetics (responders) and where/how your body adds muscle or sheds fat are more important than steroids. True, steroids are a factor with pros but they (for the most part) have a level playing field because they're all using to some extent.
It always makes me laugh to read some of the guys say: "if I took that much juice, I'd be just as big as (insert name)". Unless you're at Curves working out, chances are that you'll run into someone using supplements. Do any of them look massive and perfectly proportioned? No. Deep down inside you know why, they're only doing what is comfortable and probably have a shitty diet.
Personally, I can't see a good reasion for recreational bodybuilders to go crazy with supplements. There are some legitimate health risks and I'd bet that people with severe Body Dysmorhphic Syndrome are likely to be addicted to them. Tons of guys are always "bridging" and a lot of guys are never off cycle. And, and...... And, most of these guys never, ever compete!
Considering what they earn, it's a wonder why so many pros take the health risks too...
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Drugs are not going anywhere. They are big part of bodybuilding. If you wanna see naturals, take your shirt off and pose in front of the mirror.
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When it comes down to it there is not one natural pro on the IFBB circuit. What I do believe is that some respond better than others and can get away with taking a lesser amount than others and still come in with a fantastic physique.
Let's face it....we all have friends that use AAS, some that take large amounts and look no bigger than 240 while there are others that take light cycles but make tremendous gains and look awesome....
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nice thread
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Nice thread.
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Drugs dont win contests but lack of Drug Testing certainly challenges ones "Line I wont Cross" school of thought. For some there is no line, for others there's a limit. That being said, with no Testing, the door is open to walk in or out regarding competition. If the Heat is to Hot in the Kitchen, get out. If you stay, you know the deal.
At the end of the day, I never cared what others took, oly what I was willing and Not Willing to do to be the best I can. When i felt I accomplished that, I left sans a Sandow but my health in tact and my accomplishments worthy of discussion.
Why would Pro's admit to Drugs and their role unless they felt they were being cheated because of the lack of Testing?
Everyone knows the deal, therefore, none of the Pro's talk about them. All the drugs in the world would not "Make" someone better than Ronnie, Dorian or Haney. Sure they have a percentage impact but please, not many people have the work ethic, dedication, genetics or the time to be half of what these men were.
We can blame drugs or point at others who use them, bottom line, until or unless the Testing resumes, we are all whistling in the wind.......... :-\
Was that your mom that went to prison for accepting steroids for you or am I thinking of someone else?
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I thought someone highjacked my password till I saw the date... ;D
Boy, did I sound like a whiney little faqqot...
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If drugs were only 10% then loads of guys walking around gyms would look like top level npc competitors. Instead their lucky if with years of training they look as good as an olympic swimmer.
::)
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Yes Drugs Don't work just ask any IFBB Pro.