Getbig.com: American Bodybuilding, Fitness and Figure
Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: thegamechanger on June 04, 2015, 01:29:11 PM
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Every day it seems getbig steroid experts talk about how bodybuilders dies like flies due to shitloads of steroids and/or recreational drugs... lets check and see how many pro bodybuilders on the top level for the last almost 40 years going back that died... and how many of those deaths can we be sure of being drug related?
(http://www.art-of-gambling.com/art/ace_of_spades.jpg)
TOTAL NO OF MR OLYMPIA/NO OF YEARS: 20 (FROM 1977 TO 1997)
TOTAL NO OF BODYBUILDERS COMPETING PER OLYMPIA: 8 to 24.
TOTAL NO OF BODYBUILDERS ALIVE TODAY (18 to 38 years later): 100
TOTAL NO OF BODYBUILDERS THAT I DONT KNOW "?": 14
TOTAL NO OF BODYBUILDERS DEAD: 17
mr olympia 1977
ALIVE Frank Zane
ALIVE Robby Robinson
ALIVE Ed Corney (81 years old)
ALIVE Boyer Coe
ALIVE Ken Waller
DEAD AT 64 Dennis Tinerino (cancer)
ALIVE Albert Beckles (84 years old!)
ALIVE Bill Grant
mr olympia 1978
ALIVE Frank Zane
ALIVE Robby Robinson
ALIVE Roy Callender
ALIVE Boyer Coe
? Kalman Szkalak
ALIVE Danny Padilla
ALIVE Ed Corney
ALIVE Tony Emmott
mr olympia 1979
DEAD at 49 mentzer (heart complications)
ALIVE roger walker
ALIVE Bob Birdsong
ALIVE Chris Dickerson
DEAD at 47 Carlos Rodriguez (stomach cancer)
ALIVE Steve Davis
ALIVE tom platz
MR OLYMPIA 1980
ALIVE arnold
ALIVE Roy Duval
DEAD at 62 Casey Viator (heart attack)
ALIVE Samir Bannout
ALIVE ken waller
mr olympia 1981
ALIVE Jusup Wilkosz
DEAD at 63 Johnny Fuller (leukemia)
ALIVE Hubert Metz
ALIVE mike katz
DEAD at 61 Jorma Raty
mr olympia 1982
ALIVE Mohamed Makkawy
ALIVE bertil fox
?Jacques Nueville
ALIVE Lance Dreher
mr olympia 1983
ALIVE lee haney
ALIVE James Gaubert
ALIVE Dale Ruplinger
ALIVE Gerard Buinoud
mr olympia 1984
ALIVE bob paris
ALIVE Tony Pearson
ALIVE Chuck Williams
ALIVE charles glass
?Appie Steenbeek
mr olympia 1985
ALIVE gaspari
ALIVE mike christian
ALIVE Berry DeMey
DEAD at 71 sergio oliva (kidney failure)
? Richard Frank
DEAD at 62 Wilfried Sylvester (alzheimers)
ALIVE John Brown
ALIVE Ali Malla
? Salvador Ruiz
ALIVE Renato Bertagna
ALIVE Sean Jenkins
ALIVE Ben Herder
1986
?Peter Hensel
ALIVE ron love
ALIVE John Terelli
?Josef Grolmus
DEAD at 47 Eduardo Kawak
? Gary Leonard
1987
ALIVE labrada
ALIVE Michael Ashley
ALIVE John Hnatyschak
ALIVE Paul Jean-Guillaume
ALIVE Ulf Larsson
?Herman Hoffend
ALIVE Steve Brosbois
1988
ALIVE strydom
ALIVE Mike Quinn
ALIVE Brian Buchanan
DEAD at 33 Mohamed Benaziza
ALIVE phil hill
ALIVE shawn ray
ALIVE Luiz Freitas
ALIVE ralf moeller
1989
ALIVE vince taylor. ALIVE benfatto. DEAD at 31 munzer. (multiple organ failure) ? Armando Defant ALIVE Prem Chand Degra ALIVE Pavel Jablonicki ALIVE Tom Terwilliger
1990
DEAD at 45-46 Frank Hillebrand (heart attack)
ALIVE Eddie Robinson
ALIVE Jean Luc Favre
? Bernard Sealy
1991
ALIVE yates.
DEAD at 51 Sonny Schmidt (cancer)
ALIVE Thierry Pastel
ALIVE Achim Albrecht
? Renel Janvier
ALIVE nimrod king
ALIVE Geir Borgen Paulsen
? Joseph Dawson
ALIVE J.J. Marsh
ALIVE milos
1992
ALIVE levrone.
ALIVE porter cottrell
ALIVE lou ferrigno
ALIVE Alq' Gurley
ALIVE Henderson Thorne
ALIVE ronnie
? Miroslav Diskiewicz
DEAD Jose Guzman
ALIVE Juhani Herranen
ALIVE Patrick Nicholls
1993
ALIVE dillett
ALIVE Charles Clairmonte
ALIVE Flavio Baccianini
DEAD Ray McNeil (shot)
ALIVE Mauro Sarni
ALIVE Hamdullah Aykutlu
? Arthur Buurman
DEAD at 47 Mike Matarazzo (heart)
ALIVE Johann Schatz
ALIVE John Sherman
1994
ALIVE cormier.
DEAD at 47 nasser.
ALIVE aaron baker.
ALIVE gunter.
ALIVE david dearth
1995
ALIVE mike francois
ALIVE flex
ALIVE darrem charles
ALIVE Ian Harrison
1996
ALIVE Jean Pierre Fux
1997
ALIVE lee priest
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::) still alive but other two guys in pic are dead 2 out of 3 mr u 's dead.in pic
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If u didn't cut & paste that u have too much time on your hands
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so were talking about rougly 17 dead outta 130 or so, a third of those died in their 60s or later... so that leaves us with about 10 deaths outta 130 how would compare to other sports, or regular people?
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If u didn't cut & paste that u have too much time on your hands
I was too busy cracking one off while oogling the vintage hunks junk in their tight posing trunks ;D
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number of professional cyclists who has died during a race (same timespan 1977-1997): 8
in offshore powerboat racing: 14.
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pretty much percentage wise represents the general public, in saying that not sure the 90s and 2000 guys will fare as well as the 60,70,80 guys but who knows, listen to getbigs anti everything brigaded and they should all be dead.
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Puts things into a perspective.
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Australian rock fishing is still the deadliest sport ;D (40-60 dead p/y)
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number of mentzer bros to die b-4- 50 =2 out of 2
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I don't think bodybuilding is unhealthy unless it's taken to extreme levels with the eating/dieting/drugs. The guys that are 275-300 lbs for a good percentage of their career, such as Nasser, are extreme cases. Munzer's use of diuretics is another extreme case. Staying drug free will obviously increase your odds with longevity, but As is seen with Frank Zane and other golden era guys, you can use steroids and still live a long life. Just have to smart about limitations and know when to stop.
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could some of those extreme cases of bodybuilders gambling with their health be compared to, say extreme sport athletes? like rock climbers?
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wrestlers even have their own website
http://deadwrestlers.net/
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could some of those extreme cases of bodybuilders gambling with their health be compared to, say extreme sport athletes? like rock climbers?
I suppose so. Extreme sport athletes die traumatically of course as opposed to dying slowly from various medical conditions, but the end result is the same.
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i just think that some people on purpose take it to the extreme and roll the dice so to speak just as some people are in extreme sports, and should be looked at in that light.
in other words, its not accidental that a few bodybuilders die of steroid or other drug-related sickness it's to be expected just as deaths for rock climbers.
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These were 3 big deaths IMO
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Not just steroids. How much coke and heroin were some of these top level pros doing? Drinking excessive alcohol? I'd bet that adding those things on top of the roids and diuretics is what kills most of these guys.
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Not just steroids. How much coke and heroin were some of these top level pros doing? Drinking excessive alcohol? I'd bet that adding those things on top of the roids and diuretics is what kills most of these guys.
I think that Atwood was on recreational drugs when he died (in his late 30's). As was Demayo
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Demayo died of a heroin overdose. After prison & a bad divorce he ended up back at home. His father went in his one mrning & found him dead. Sad.
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Demayo died of a heroin overdose. After prison & a bad divorce he ended up back at home. His father went in his one mrning & found him dead. Sad.
I knew Demayo. He did EVERY drug under the sun. Toward the end he was a total burn out.
Truth...
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You gotta throw in contributors like Dan Duchaine too....
Man, right off the top of my head: Andreas Munzer, Momo Benanziza, Nasser El Sonbaty, Curtis Leffler, Greg Kovacs, Menzer Bros, Paul De Mayo, Mike Matarazzo, a shitload of Pro Wrestlers....
Terri Harris, Jesse Boller, Matt Duvalll (???) Sonny Schmidt, Daniel Saccerecci, Kurt Muncy, Luke Wood, Art Atwood, Michalik (suicide I think) Derek (??) Don Youngblood, Eduardo Kawak, Ron Teufel, Serge and Sergio (not drug related... well maybe Surge)
Bunch of Powerlifters.....
Theres more I just can't remember their names. Tom Prince and Flex almost bit the bullet...
Big Paul Dillett locked up onstage and almost ate it also....
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I knew Demayo. He did EVERY drug under the sun. Toward the end he was a total burn out.
Truth...
And?! Did it make u feel good to post that? Go fuck yourself.
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And?! Did it make u feel good to post that? Go fuck yourself.
Paul did have some issues as did/does Craig Titus....
His supposedly started with Nubain.
What about all the guys in the gyms that have passed that nobody talks about b/c they weren't "Famous" .....????
I'm not sure the point of this thread other than trivia and heresay. Mike Matarazzo had a lot to say in the end also....
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Demayo was thick as hell. And his waistline was under control.
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Is nubain what nipped Denise R. in her (once) spectacular ass?
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The guys dying early are 90s and onwards, when drug dosages/variety exploded..
Keep dosages under control,take time off, take support supplements and you should be all good- and aim for a 70s/80s build
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it must be the reccy drugs ::)
it must be the high doses ::)
it must have been the diuretics ::)
its must be something else ::)
Denialism is strong as ever.
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mr olympia 1979
DEAD at 49 mentzer (heart complications)
ALIVE roger walker
ALIVE Bob Birdsong
ALIVE Chris Dickerson
DEAD at 47 Carlos Rodriguez (stomach cancer)
ALIVE Steve Davis
ALIVE tom platz
Pretty sure Mentzer died of kidney failure
THE BEEF
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The guys dying early are 90s and onwards, when drug dosages/variety exploded..
Keep dosages under control,take time off, take support supplements and you should be all good- and aim for a 70s/80s build
Up until the late 80’s you could have doctors supervise the cycles. Greatly reduces the sides. Also the doctors could prescribe ancillaries.
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steroids dont kill you bozos its the other extras people take
if you have to take pain killers because you inject too much thats were it all goes down hill
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Full blood tests every six months and cardio health test every year or two and most of the risks are ruled out.
Hope this helps.
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im not saying steroids is risk free but looking at the highest level of the sport for mid 70s all of the 80s and most of the notorious 90s when people really put size on and still only we count a half dozen to a dozen death?
from all the drama, one would think the numbers would be higher, no?
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This is the final word on the topic....thread!
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steroids dont kill you bozos its the other extras people take
if you have to take pain killers because you inject too much thats were it all goes down hill
False. steriods have many negative side effects on their own.
Yes, rec drugs sometimes go with steroids seeing as how some of these guys are just drug addicts, as i once was.
I was ON for a few years and those were some of the best years of my life but i knew the risks
Steroids led to injuries, pain led to Vicodin, then Oxys and eventually heroin.
Luckily i asked for help....
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every day it seems getbig steroid experts talk about how bodybuilders dies like flies due to shitloads of steroids and/or recreational drugs... lets check and see how many pro bodybuilders on the top level for the last almost 40 years going back that died... and how many of those deaths can we be sure of being drug related?
(http://www.art-of-gambling.com/art/ace_of_spades.jpg)
TOTAL NO OF MR OLYMPIA/NO OF YEARS: 20 (FROM 1977 TO 1997)
TOTAL NO OF BODYBUILDERS COMPETING PER OLYMPIA: 8 to 24.
TOTAL NO OF BODYBUILDERS ALIVE TODAY (18 to 38 years later): 100
TOTAL NO OF BODYBUILDERS THAT I DONT KNOW "?": 14
TOTAL NO OF BODYBUILDERS DEAD: 17
mr olympia 1977
ALIVEFrank Zane
ALIVERobby Robinson
ALIVEEd Corney (81 years old)
ALIVEBoyer Coe
ALIVEKen Waller
DEAD AT 64Dennis Tinerino (cancer)
ALIVEAlbert Beckles (84 years old!)
ALIVEBill Grant
mr olympia 1978
ALIVEFrank Zane
ALIVERobby Robinson
ALIVERoy Callender
ALIVEBoyer Coe
?Kalman Szkalak
ALIVEDanny Padilla
ALIVEEd Corney
ALIVETony Emmott
mr olympia 1979
DEAD at 49 mentzer (heart complications)
ALIVE roger walker
ALIVE Bob Birdsong
ALIVE Chris Dickerson
DEAD at 47 Carlos Rodriguez (stomach cancer)
ALIVE Steve Davis
ALIVE tom platz
MR OLYMPIA 1980
ALIVE arnold
ALIVE Roy Duval
DEAD at 62 Casey Viator (heart attack)
ALIVE Samir Bannout
ALIVE ken waller
mr olympia 1981
ALIVE Jusup Wilkosz
DEAD at 63 Johnny Fuller (leukemia)
ALIVE Hubert Metz
ALIVE mike katz
DEAD at 61 Jorma Raty
mr olympia 1982
ALIVE Mohamed Makkawy
ALIVE bertil fox
?Jacques Nueville
ALIVE Lance Dreher
mr olympia 1983
ALIVE lee haney
ALIVE James Gaubert
ALIVE Dale Ruplinger
ALIVE Gerard Buinoud
mr olympia 1984
ALIVE bob paris
ALIVE Tony Pearson
ALIVE Chuck Williams
ALIVE charles glass
?Appie Steenbeek
mr olympia 1985
ALIVE gaspari
ALIVE mike christian
ALIVE Berry DeMey
DEAD at 71 sergio oliva (kidney failure)
? Richard Frank
DEAD at 62 Wilfried Sylvester (alzheimers)
ALIVE John Brown
ALIVE Ali Malla
? Salvador Ruiz
ALIVE Renato Bertagna
ALIVE Sean Jenkins
ALIVE Ben Herder
1986
?Peter Hensel
ALIVE ron love
ALIVE John Terelli
?Josef Grolmus
DEAD at 47 Eduardo Kawak
? Gary Leonard
1987
ALIVE labrada
ALIVE Michael Ashley
ALIVE John Hnatyschak
ALIVE Paul Jean-Guillaume
ALIVE Ulf Larsson
?Herman Hoffend
ALIVE Steve Brosbois
1988
ALIVE strydom
ALIVE Mike Quinn
ALIVE Brian Buchanan
DEAD at 33 Mohamed Benaziza
ALIVE phil hill
ALIVE shawn ray
ALIVE Luiz Freitas
ALIVE ralf moeller
1989
ALIVE vince taylor. ALIVE benfatto. DEAD at 31 munzer. (multiple organ failure) ? Armando Defant ALIVE Prem Chand Degra ALIVE Pavel Jablonicki ALIVE Tom Terwilliger
1990 DEAD at 45-46 Frank Hillebrand (heart attack) ALIVE Eddie Robinson ALIVE Jean Luc Favre ? Bernard Sealy
1991 ALIVE yates. DEAD at 51 Sonny Schmidt (cancer) ALIVE Thierry Pastel ALIVE Achim Albrecht ? Renel Janvier ALIVE nimrod king ALIVE Geir Borgen Paulsen
? Joseph Dawson ALIVE J.J. Marsh ALIVE milos
1992 ALIVE levrone. ALIVE porter cottrell ALIVE lou ferrigno ALIVE Alq' Gurley ALIVE Henderson Thorne ALIVE ronnie ? Miroslav Diskiewicz DEAD Jose Guzman
ALIVE Juhani Herranen ALIVE Patrick Nicholls
1993 ALIVE dillett ALIVE Charles Clairmonte ALIVE Flavio Baccianini DEAD Ray McNeil (shot) ALIVE Mauro Sarni ALIVE Hamdullah Aykutlu
? Arthur Buurman DEAD at 47 Mike Matarazzo (heart) ALIVE Johann Schatz ALIVE John Sherman
1994 ALIVE cormier. DEAD at 47 nasser. ALIVE aaron baker. ALIVE gunter. ALIVE david dearth
1995 ALIVE mike francois ALIVE flex ALIVE darrem charles ALIVE Ian Harrison
1996 ALIVE Jean Pierre Fux
1997 ALIVE lee priest
You're a fool who uses rationalization lying to yourself that your own drug use is no problem. Do you want a list of smokers who are alive without major health problems? It numbers in the millions. You're like a smoker who says I know a 80 year old who smoked his whole life. Is smoking a risk for cancer, lung and heart disease? Hell yes.
There are no real studies using a large quantity of bodybuilders who use bodybuilding drugs. What we have is empirical knowledge of what is a small subculture of a sport and the health consequences of using drugs for muscles.
So take your drugs and get all the attention your insecure little boy in your mind needs when you get your compliments of your muscles. When you have to quit due to health problems when you're in your 40's or 50's after decades of juicing remember this post.
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No one ever said it's the "survival of the shitiest". Top bodybuilders of the past twenty or more years are nothing without their dope and given their lack of natural ability (and intelligence) its no wonder they go Conehead on the stuff and then lemming out.
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Full blood tests every six months and cardio health test every year or two and most of the risks are ruled out.
Hope this helps.
It is like using any other drug. Consistent use will cause physiological changes that are unnatural and unhealthy. If you think that having a check up every 6 months, against limited parameters, is going to ensure that the long term use of drugs is not detrimental, you are only fooling yourself.
But, that is the way of the human. We all tell ourselves what we want to hear, to validate our decisions.
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False. steriods have many negative side effects on their own.
Yes, rec drugs sometimes go with steroids seeing as how some of these guys are just drug addicts, as i once was.
I was ON for a few years and those were some of the best years of my life but i knew the risks
Steroids led to injuries, pain led to Vicodin, then Oxys and eventually heroin.
Luckily i asked for help....
Not supposed to happen if you know what you're doing. Your example is beyond extreme and is not even close to what will happen to anyone.
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Comparing cigarettes to roids for health comparisons???
LOL, OK....
The average gym rat with rational use has pretty much nothing to worry about.
Pro's? I'd say yes.
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i dont use steroids. i thought about creatine but i decided not to !
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You're a fool who uses rationalization lying to yourself that your own drug use is no problem. Do you want a list of smokers who are alive without major health problems? It numbers in the millions. You're like a smoker who says I know a 80 year old who smoked his whole life. Is smoking a risk for cancer, lung and heart disease? Hell yes.
There are no real studies using a large quantity of bodybuilders who use bodybuilding drugs. What we have is empirical knowledge of what is a small subculture of a sport and the health consequences of using drugs for muscles.
So take your drugs and get all the attention your insecure little boy in your mind needs when you get your compliments of your muscles. When you have to quit due to health problems when you're in your 40's or 50's after decades of juicing remember this post.
have you ever used them? i've asked you this before but you always avoid answering
E
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It is like using any other drug. Consistent use will cause physiological changes that are unnatural and unhealthy. If you think that having a check up every 6 months, against limited parameters, is going to ensure that the long term use of drugs is not detrimental, you are only fooling yourself.
But, that is the way of the human. We all tell ourselves what we want to hear, to validate our decisions.
Limited parameters? You'd spend half of the day reading my blood tests results. I usualy order lots of extras. You can be pretty much sure that you are well if most of these are in the normal range. The last time I did it (after a decent blast) my results still were in very good, better than most people who live an average life, with an average diet, physical activity and no hormones.
Another interesting fact - after well over a decade of lifting heavy and over 4 years of using hormones, my heart is not enlarged abit. I guess it's purely genetics, just like balding.
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Comparing cigarettes to roids for health comparisons???
LOL, OK....
The average gym rat with rational use has pretty much nothing to worry about.
Pro's? I'd say yes.
The pros of moderate use with a decent care most probably will outweight any negatives on the long run. I'm ready to sacrifice some years of my old age in exchange to a huge boost in the quality of life while I'm young (and being able to stay young for longer).
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You're a fool who uses rationalization lying to yourself that your own drug use is no problem. Do you want a list of smokers who are alive without major health problems? It numbers in the millions. You're like a smoker who says I know a 80 year old who smoked his whole life. Is smoking a risk for cancer, lung and heart disease? Hell yes.
There are no real studies using a large quantity of bodybuilders who use bodybuilding drugs. What we have is empirical knowledge of what is a small subculture of a sport and the health consequences of using drugs for muscles.
So take your drugs and get all the attention your insecure little boy in your mind needs when you get your compliments of your muscles. When you have to quit due to health problems when you're in your 40's or 50's after decades of juicing remember this post.
You stupid old bitter fool, I bet you are fapping your flacid dick before your bed time imaging all these little slutty whores you could've fucked by having a physique of god. If I would send some of the pics of bitches that I had merely because of how I look - you'd off yourself right there you shrivelled turd.
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Not trying to be a dick here, but I have wonder why anyone who isn't trying to be a professional athlete would use steroids. We all know a normal healthy guy with average and even below average genetics can build a very nice physique of 180-200 lbs with a fairly low bf(8-12%). With that said, I'm really just curious to the guys who use or have used, at what point did you say to yourself "I'm not good enough". I just wanna know what the reasons are for using since most of you probably already had a good build.
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The pros of moderate use with a decent care most probably will outweight any negatives on the long run. I'm ready to sacrifice some years of my old age in exchange to a huge boost in the quality of life while I'm young (and being able to stay young for longer).
The thing is most people at whichever given age, dont really want to die.
When you get to 60, not you specifically, but in general, people are going to want to live to 70, when people are 70 they want to live to 80.
As a steroid user, if you get to 60, you wont say oh well, I had some good fun 20 years ago, its ok if I drop dead tommorow, or die of some other condition. You will want to live on.
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Limited parameters? You'd spend half of the day reading my blood tests results. I usualy order lots of extras. You can be pretty much sure that you are well if most of these are in the normal range. The last time I did it (after a decent blast) my results still were in very good, better than most people who live an average life, with an average diet, physical activity and no hormones.
Another interesting fact - after well over a decade of lifting heavy and over 4 years of using hormones, my heart is not enlarged abit. I guess it's purely genetics, just like balding.
Out of interest what markers do you get done?
Specifically I'm quite interested in the more recent cardiac markers (mainly blood lipids and inflammation) that are available and have had quite a few done. Would you be able to share yours. If you have them, ones I am interested in are:
ApoA
ApoB
HS-CRP
LP(a)
LP-PLA2
I'm assuming as you said your values are all good, your regular lipid values are good ie LDL/HDL, out of interest what was your ferritin?
In reference back to your point, the main problems with blood work is that they dont measure what I see to be the two largest risk factors that steroids may bring, which is compromised electrical conductivity, which needs an EKG to show up (and even then it may not) and myocardial fibrosis which will only show up in a cardiac magnetic resonance scan. You are basically checking a myriad of what I would consider lower risk values, but missing the main two high risk ones.
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Out of interest what markers do you get done?
Specifically I'm quite interested in the more recent cardiac markers, mainly to do with blood lipids and inflammation, that are available and have had quite a few done. Would you be able to share yours. If you have them, ones I am interested in are:
ApoA
ApoB
HS-CRP
LP(a)
LP-PLA2
I'm assuming as you said your values are all good, your regular lipid values are good ie LDL/HDL, out of interest what was your ferritin?
In reference back to your point, the main problems with blood work is that they dont measure what I see to be the two largest risk factors that steroids may bring, which is compromised electrical conductivity, which needs an EKG to show up (and even then it may not) and myocardial fibrosis which will only show up in a cardiac magnetic resonance scan. You are basically checking a myriad of what I would consider lower risk values, but missing the main two high risk ones.
Great post. Though I understand half of it. Sums up why I can't bother with roids. I like to work out. End of the story. I don't need the headache and taking more tests than an HIV patient.
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taking selective statistics is one sure way to represent any case you choose.
taking actual real, full statistics and then comparing to another full set of baseline stats is the only way.
ignoring that, if you actually believe that taking exogenous hormones has no long term effect, then you are being selectively ignorant.
considering that its quite common to hear of deaths and grave sickness in the real freaks of the sport, that should serve as further evidence.
bottom line is that you arent a doctor. if the medical community say its risky, then accept it. dont try grasping at straws to justify your use.
taking hormones WILL take time off of your life. Period. is that trade off for some extra muscle worth it?...thats your decision.
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i google steroid + death and i get nothing.
what gives? is this a hoax like the moon landing?
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i managed to find a report on pubmed
"Cause and manner of death among users of anabolic androgenic steroids."
"Medicolegally investigated deaths among 34 male users of anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) are described. Nine persons were victims of homicide, 11 had committed suicide, 12 deaths were judged as accidental and 2 as indeterminate. "
::)
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here's another great find
"Exposure to anabolic-androgenic steroids shortens life span of male mice."
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i managed to find a report on pubmed
"Cause and manner of death among users of anabolic androgenic steroids."
"Medicolegally investigated deaths among 34 male users of anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) are described. Nine persons were victims of homicide, 11 had committed suicide, 12 deaths were judged as accidental and 2 as indeterminate. "
::)
So using steroids increase your chances of getting offed or offing yourself for no other reasons then pinning yourself?
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maybe the more steroids you use the bigger the risk that you run into myers, jason or freddy kruger :-\
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maybe the more steroids you use the bigger the risk that you run into myers, jason or freddy kruger :-\
Add TBombz and Goodrum to the list.
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name that steroid!
Attitudes towards use of anabolic-androgenic steroids among Ghanaian high school students.
"The overall lifetime prevalence of use was 3.8% (males=4.9%, females=3.1%). Moreover, 18.5% reported having an acquaintance that has used AAS while 6.0% of the sample had previously been offered AAS. However, none of the AAS users provided a valid name of the AAS they had used."
ghana is like 25 million people so if 5% take steroids (and die of heartattacks) thats 1,25 million :o that sucks. the good news is that in ghana average life expectancy is 65 years so any health risks after that wont matter since theyll be dead anyway.
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Out of interest what markers do you get done?
Specifically I'm quite interested in the more recent cardiac markers (mainly blood lipids and inflammation) that are available and have had quite a few done. Would you be able to share yours. If you have them, ones I am interested in are:
ApoA
ApoB
HS-CRP
LP(a)
LP-PLA2
I'm assuming as you said your values are all good, your regular lipid values are good ie LDL/HDL, out of interest what was your ferritin?
In reference back to your point, the main problems with blood work is that they dont measure what I see to be the two largest risk factors that steroids may bring, which is compromised electrical conductivity, which needs an EKG to show up (and even then it may not) and myocardial fibrosis which will only show up in a cardiac magnetic resonance scan. You are basically checking a myriad of what I would consider lower risk values, but missing the main two high risk ones.
I will try to get some of the values I test tomorrow as I'm pretty tired today already and will go for some sleep (one fast thing I can tell: after a solid blast of tren, which usualy sends lipids down the shitter for many, mine were affected just very slightly. Which I'm sure is genetic, as there are/were no people with heart disseases/diabetes/obesity in my family tree.). You raise interesting points, could you elaborate on the electrical conductivity? I may do these tests next time around as I have some "access" to a medical care system through my relatives so I can get pretty much any test I want for a lower price or even for free. Myocardial fibrosis is interesting too, but I'm on quite an extensive regimen of supplements, probably like 30+ substances (mostly natural), I think I'm outweighing at least some of the possible negatives (eat clean, no drugs or alcohol ever, etc..).
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I will try to get some of the values I test tomorrow as I'm pretty tired today already and will go for some sleep (one fast thing I can tell: after a solid blast of tren, which usualy sends lipids down the shitter for many, mine were affected just very slightly. Which I'm sure is genetic, as there are/were no people with heart disseases/diabetes/obesity in my family tree.). You raise interesting points, could you elaborate on the electrical conductivity? I may do these tests next time around as I have some "access" to a medical care system through my relatives so I can get pretty much any test I want for a lower price or even for free. Myocardial fibrosis is interesting too, but I'm on quite an extensive regimen of supplements, probably like 30+ substances (mostly natural), I think I'm outweighing at least some of the possible negatives (eat clean, no drugs or alcohol ever, etc..).
Genetics will play a part for sure, so you are probably lucky on that part, or some other element of your diet or lifestyle in general is just right to mitigate the impact of gear on your lipid values.
In terms of the electrical conductivity, there are quite a few studies that seem to show, steroids can effect the conductivity of cardiac tissue. It doesnt seem to be a permanent change, but effectively the signals regulating the heart beat become erratic, in the studies I saw, they found that it was intermittent and occuring at certain times after intense physical exercise like cardio for example. Its not clear whether this is a physiological change or due to some kind of issue relating to electrolytes or mineral imbalance. I think one of the theories was that calcium was building up in cardiac tissue which impairs conductivity. Having an EKG would be worth doing anyway if you have access. Its not guaranteed to show anything up in regards to this specific issue, but it might show up other things. In my own opinion I would think if EKGS are used and they dont show a problem, that might suggest that its not a structural or physiological change, but rather some temporary imbalance caused by steroids affects on electrolytes or mineral balance.
Myocardial fibrosis happens to everyone but ramped up heavily in steroid use. There are things that could be done to reduce the effects via diet, red wine, once again, has been shown to possibly reduce the rate of fibrosis. Periodic periods of fasting (not good for bodybuilding) seem to be of benefit to the heart, cardiac tissue seems to do better on ketones.
I dont know if you are in US or Europe but the test names differ.
I the US you wont get APoA/B but something called LDL-P LDL-C, I think the test is called LDL NMR.
One other one worth doing is:
HBa1c - glycated hemaglobin
Ferritin
ApoA/ ApoB or NMR/LDL-P/LDL-C
HS-CRP
LP(a)
LP-PLA2
I dont know how old you are but if you are closer to 40 and have access a CAC or coronary calcium scan test is worth doing if you can get it cheap. It is the most effective test as it physically shows you what is actually in your arteries in terms of plaques so its very useful in seeing if you are setup for a heart attack/stroke. They suggest you only have this done once in your life, probably best after you have had children :-) as it involves a large dose of radiation and best done towards middle age. LP=PLA2 is your second best option to the CAC and is just a blood test.
I do believe that if one truly lives a healthy lifestyle, then they can mitigate some of the effects of steroids, however most of the effects we can mitigate are on the periphery, liver function, kidney function, test levels, hair loss, gyno,. Lipid values are more serious and again they can be regulated. Steroids actually do have some benefit in that they increase NO production which in turn has a positve effect on endothelial function but what we cant be sure of, and dont really know about, is what structural/functional affects are taking place in cardiac tissue. These are changes that are most likely long term and its not clear whether they reverse with time off.
Aside from these visible and "hidden" or noticable side effects, the main thing that cannot be mitigated is one of the fundamental priciniples on which steroids work, which is significantly increased levels of IGF-1. Having constantly elevated levels of IGF-1 by its most basic function means you have much higher levels of cell turnover...in the most basic sense aging. Basically you have tank of "life fuel", the more IGF-1 you have floating around everyday, the faster you burn your life fuel. The less IGF-1 the slower, we do need IGF-1 as we need it for the various normal anabolic type functions in our body, but we dont want to have it sky high 24/7 which is what steroids and a high calorie high protein diet will do. Im not saying only steroids do this thought, you can be 300lbs lazy obese guy eating mcdonalds every day, sitting on his backside all day and eating shit loads of food will also keep his IGF-1 elevated. Ideally you want to have periods of high IGF-1 during the day and then lower levels for the bulk of the day. Anyway I'm starting to digress into the realms of longevity :)
If you can get those tests, it would be good to see what they come back as.You can calculate some of your risk factors based on Lp(a), Athe apo's and pla2.
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Genetics will play a part for sure, so you are probably lucky on that part, or some other element of your diet or lifestyle in general is just right to mitigate the impact of gear on your lipid values.
In terms of the electrical conductivity, there are quite a few studies that seem to show, steroids can effect the conductivity of cardiac tissue. It doesnt seem to be a permanent change, but effectively the signals regulating the heart beat become erratic, in the studies I saw, they found that it was intermittent and occuring at certain times after intense physical exercise like cardio for example. Its not clear whether this is a physiological change or due to some kind of issue relating to electrolytes or mineral imbalance. I think one of the theories was that calcium was building up in cardiac tissue which impairs conductivity. Having an EKG would be worth doing anyway if you have access. Its not guaranteed to show anything up in regards to this specific issue, but it might show up other things. In my own opinion I would think if EKGS are used and they dont show a problem, that might suggest that its not a structural or physiological change, but rather some temporary imbalance caused by steroids affects on electrolytes or mineral balance.
Myocardial fibrosis happens to everyone but ramped up heavily in steroid use. There are things that could be done to reduce the effects via diet, red wine, once again, has been shown to possibly reduce the rate of fibrosis. Periodic periods of fasting (not good for bodybuilding) seem to be of benefit to the heart, cardiac tissue seems to do better on ketones.
I dont know if you are in US or Europe but the test names differ.
I the US you wont get APoA/B but something called LDL-P LDL-C, I think the test is called LDL NMR.
One other one worth doing is:
HBa1c - glycated hemaglobin
Ferritin
ApoA/ ApoB or NMR/LDL-P/LDL-C
HS-CRP
LP(a)
LP-PLA2
I dont know how old you are but if you are closer to 40 and have access a CAC or coronary calcium scan test is worth doing if you can get it cheap. It is the most effective test as it physically shows you what is actually in your arteries in terms of plaques so its very useful in seeing if you are setup for a heart attack/stroke. They suggest you only have this done once in your life, probably best after you have had children :-) as it involves a large dose of radiation and best done towards middle age. LP=PLA2 is your second best option to the CAC and is just a blood test.
I do believe that if one truly lives a healthy lifestyle, then they can mitigate some of the effects of steroids, however most of the effects we can mitigate are on the periphery, liver function, kidney function, test levels, hair loss, gyno,. Lipid values are more serious and again they can be regulated. Steroids actually do have some benefit in that they increase NO production which in turn has a positve effect on endothelial function but what we cant be sure of, and dont really know about, is what structural/functional affects are taking place in cardiac tissue. These are changes that are most likely long term and its not clear whether they reverse with time off.
Aside from these visible and "hidden" or noticable side effects, the main thing that cannot be mitigated is one of the fundamental priciniples on which steroids work, which is significantly increased levels of IGF-1. Having constantly elevated levels of IGF-1 by its most basic function means you have much higher levels of cell turnover...in the most basic sense aging. Basically you have tank of "life fuel", the more IGF-1 you have floating around everyday, the faster you burn your life fuel. The less IGF-1 the slower, we do need IGF-1 as we need it for the various normal anabolic type functions in our body, but we dont want to have it sky high 24/7 which is what steroids and a high calorie high protein diet will do. Im not saying only steroids do this thought, you can be 300lbs lazy obese guy eating mcdonalds every day, sitting on his backside all day and eating shit loads of food will also keep his IGF-1 elevated. Ideally you want to have periods of high IGF-1 during the day and then lower levels for the bulk of the day. Anyway I'm starting to digress into the realms of longevity :)
If you can get those tests, it would be good to see what they come back as.You can calculate some of your risk factors based on Lp(a), Athe apo's and pla2.
You give very good advice throughout the thread, as a 90s bodybuilder who retired from competition due to the increasing drug requirement, Stress tests and bloodwork don't do anything, hardening of the arteries and plaque build up can only be detected on Calcium score tests a CT scan, this test isn't usually covered by insurance under a certain age under 50 without symptoms from an ECG, but usually detection there means the condition has progressed past a point where lifestyle changes will significantly alter the condition. As it requires out of pocket expense most bodybuilders won't take the test. But it is the single best way to find out how your use is effecting your heart which in the end will determine how long you live.
Early detection is critical and adjustment in lifestyle, I see insulin use in modern day guys progressing this even further, there is also a high percentage of modern guys with enlarged livers from fat deposits that seem to be increasing since the age of insulin, this seems to be easier to reverse than the cardiac issues which are irreversible all you can do is try to slow the progression on that one, once the hardening has started.
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lots of bro scientists in this thread.
is steroids more dangerous than for example drinking milk? i would say no.
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lots of bro scientists in this thread.
is steroids more dangerous than for example drinking milk? i would say no.
Dare I even mention synthetic and exogenous creatine in this thread? (something I have personally vowed to never use again)
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Genetics will play a part for sure, so you are probably lucky on that part, or some other element of your diet or lifestyle in general is just right to mitigate the impact of gear on your lipid values.
In terms of the electrical conductivity, there are quite a few studies that seem to show, steroids can effect the conductivity of cardiac tissue. It doesnt seem to be a permanent change, but effectively the signals regulating the heart beat become erratic, in the studies I saw, they found that it was intermittent and occuring at certain times after intense physical exercise like cardio for example. Its not clear whether this is a physiological change or due to some kind of issue relating to electrolytes or mineral imbalance. I think one of the theories was that calcium was building up in cardiac tissue which impairs conductivity. Having an EKG would be worth doing anyway if you have access. Its not guaranteed to show anything up in regards to this specific issue, but it might show up other things. In my own opinion I would think if EKGS are used and they dont show a problem, that might suggest that its not a structural or physiological change, but rather some temporary imbalance caused by steroids affects on electrolytes or mineral balance.
Myocardial fibrosis happens to everyone but ramped up heavily in steroid use. There are things that could be done to reduce the effects via diet, red wine, once again, has been shown to possibly reduce the rate of fibrosis. Periodic periods of fasting (not good for bodybuilding) seem to be of benefit to the heart, cardiac tissue seems to do better on ketones.
I dont know if you are in US or Europe but the test names differ.
I the US you wont get APoA/B but something called LDL-P LDL-C, I think the test is called LDL NMR.
One other one worth doing is:
HBa1c - glycated hemaglobin
Ferritin
ApoA/ ApoB or NMR/LDL-P/LDL-C
HS-CRP
LP(a)
LP-PLA2
I dont know how old you are but if you are closer to 40 and have access a CAC or coronary calcium scan test is worth doing if you can get it cheap. It is the most effective test as it physically shows you what is actually in your arteries in terms of plaques so its very useful in seeing if you are setup for a heart attack/stroke. They suggest you only have this done once in your life, probably best after you have had children :-) as it involves a large dose of radiation and best done towards middle age. LP=PLA2 is your second best option to the CAC and is just a blood test.
I do believe that if one truly lives a healthy lifestyle, then they can mitigate some of the effects of steroids, however most of the effects we can mitigate are on the periphery, liver function, kidney function, test levels, hair loss, gyno,. Lipid values are more serious and again they can be regulated. Steroids actually do have some benefit in that they increase NO production which in turn has a positve effect on endothelial function but what we cant be sure of, and dont really know about, is what structural/functional affects are taking place in cardiac tissue. These are changes that are most likely long term and its not clear whether they reverse with time off.
Aside from these visible and "hidden" or noticable side effects, the main thing that cannot be mitigated is one of the fundamental priciniples on which steroids work, which is significantly increased levels of IGF-1. Having constantly elevated levels of IGF-1 by its most basic function means you have much higher levels of cell turnover...in the most basic sense aging. Basically you have tank of "life fuel", the more IGF-1 you have floating around everyday, the faster you burn your life fuel. The less IGF-1 the slower, we do need IGF-1 as we need it for the various normal anabolic type functions in our body, but we dont want to have it sky high 24/7 which is what steroids and a high calorie high protein diet will do. Im not saying only steroids do this thought, you can be 300lbs lazy obese guy eating mcdonalds every day, sitting on his backside all day and eating shit loads of food will also keep his IGF-1 elevated. Ideally you want to have periods of high IGF-1 during the day and then lower levels for the bulk of the day. Anyway I'm starting to digress into the realms of longevity :)
If you can get those tests, it would be good to see what they come back as.You can calculate some of your risk factors based on Lp(a), Athe apo's and pla2.
Ok, that is interesting. I'm from Europe, just looked at some of the values and they differ a little bit in how they are called. My Ferritin and HS-CRP were very good the last time I checked so that's nice, actually the last test I did was called "Heart dissease risk assesment test", it came back as "very low", but I can't find LP(a), LP-PLA2, I wanted to do NMR/LDL-P/LDL-C last time (as I'm aware of what it is), but there was some issue with a lab so I will try a different one next time, tho' I'm pretty sure I have genetics going with me regarding lipid profile (if a good dose of tren for 3+ months can't affect it to any serious degree, idk what could..). I'm approaching 30 btw.
And you mentioned calcium test. I won't take it anytime soon due to radiation (I'm nowhere near of having kids and it's probably not good for health anyway), but I will make sure to include LP=PLA2 next time. Regarding calcium, I've been doing a lot to avoid calcification for the last 5 years or so. Precisely - make sure that my fat soluble vitamins are in good proportions (D, A, K), don't use calcium supplements (just dairy products) and my calcium level in blood serum is right in the midle. Certain steroids, btw, very effectively increase calcium absorbtion to the bones. I took a serious approach to this when I went to my dentist ~4-5 years ago and she said "Woops... it seems your teeth are degenerating, getting very soft, that's bad. Have you tried calcium?" (yeah for fuck sake, I was using calcium supplements you bitch, can't you suggest anything else?). It was the wrong approach. Long story short - balancing my FS vitamins and a dose of d-bol (which is known to increase calcium absorbtion in the bones) reversed all the degeneraton and she could not believe her eyes half a year later when I came back.
IGF... yes, I'm still not certain about this. Mice studies are confusing and doesn't always translate to humans, some show it's bad, some show it may be good. I think best bet in this case would be to make sure the stem cells are in a good shape. Overall - good post of yours, I'm saving it as we speak, and will assess my future testing.
It's anecdotical obviously, but someone like R.Robinson is a good example of how one can stay healthy, young and strong at an advanced age with a careful supplementation.
p.s. - issues in electrcal conductivity - wouldn't they manifest as some irregular heart beats/palpitations/etc..?
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Dare I even mention synthetic and exogenous creatine in this thread? (something I have personally vowed to never use again)
sorry bro know nothing about that but im sure some of the other self taught experts in this thread can speak on that!
myself im kinda puzzled, apparantely we should live as long as possible so steroids, eating meat, drinking milk etc is obviously a big no-no, im trying to figure out how to mix bodybuilding for hypertrophy with calorie deficit diet.
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im trying to figure out how to mix bodybuilding for hypertrophy with calorie deficit diet.
You could try leangains method. I'm still too pussy to dare it.
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no clue how anyone can think steroids are not dangerous lol obviously I am not talking about 200mg of test a week and few iu's of gh
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no clue how anyone can think steroids are not dangerous lol obviously I am not talking about 200mg of test a week and few iu's of gh
yes but is it more dangerous than say drinking milk? thats what we're debating here.
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no clue how anyone can think steroids are not dangerous lol obviously I am not talking about 200mg of test a week and few iu's of gh
I'm just 200-300mgs over that dose and no gh. Acquired some serious mass with a few a lot higher blasts and have been able to maintain most of it for a long time. I think I'm not much worse than my friends who involve in binge drinking weekends and eat shit the rest of the weak.
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You give very good advice throughout the thread, as a 90s bodybuilder who retired from competition due to the increasing drug requirement, Stress tests and bloodwork don't do anything, hardening of the arteries and plaque build up can only be detected on Calcium score tests a CT scan, this test isn't usually covered by insurance under a certain age under 50 without symptoms from an ECG, but usually detection there means the condition has progressed past a point where lifestyle changes will significantly alter the condition. As it requires out of pocket expense most bodybuilders won't take the test. But it is the single best way to find out how your use is effecting your heart which in the end will determine how long you live.
Early detection is critical and adjustment in lifestyle, I see insulin use in modern day guys progressing this even further, there is also a high percentage of modern guys with enlarged livers from fat deposits that seem to be increasing since the age of insulin, this seems to be easier to reverse than the cardiac issues which are irreversible all you can do is try to slow the progression on that one, once the hardening has started.
Totally agree, Im sure the fatty liver is from the pro's insulin abuse. Basically they are metabolically obese inside.
I think some of the cardiac issues are irreversible, mainly the fibrosis. Some autopsies of bodybuilders hearts have found significant fibrosis and scarring. Scarring is pretty much irreversible, there is somethings that may theoretically help like proteolytic ezymes, but even then we have no idea if it affects cardiac tissue.
Hardening of the ateries is due to multiple things, bad lipid profile intrinsic aging, calcification, glycation. There is a lot that can be done to reverse this. For any competitive bodybuilder, or on fact any person with coronary artery disease, I would suggest the best thing they could do is go on a low carb diet, with occasional periods in ketosis. Add to this daily intermittent fasting with 16 hours break every day, like Da'vinci suggested can be found on the lean gains site. A weekly fast of 24 hours. Long duration of low carbs will keep insulin low, allow the lipid profile to improve, it will also minimise glycation, although it wont reverse all the damage, it will imrpove the way the body regenerates and repairs soft tissue going forward.
Daily consumption of Vitamin K rich foods as well as supplement form of Vitamin K, Mk-7 and in particular Mk-4, both of which are very beneficial, but Mk-4 has been shown to possibly reverse arterial calcification.
Daily consumption of magnesium which acts a calcium channel blocker preventing the deposition of calcium into the arteries.
Three times a week whole body sun exposure to maximise natural vitamin D and Nitric oxide release.
Fasting in general will keep Mtor, IGF-1 and leptin all low, all three of which could be considered as drivers in aging. Muscle still has an important value in maintaining health, so weight training should still be continued.
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I'd add that if steroids are being used, well they at least halt the loss of bone tissue (one of the positives). Regarding low carb, competitive bb'ers are somewhat doing that during pre contest period (the cut phase). Tho' competitive bodybuilding increases risks a lot imho, I know plenty of guys, and I know what are they using. It's quite beyond your regular steroid hormones.
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Ok, that is interesting. I'm from Europe, just looked at some of the values and they differ a little bit in how they are called. My Ferritin and HS-CRP were very good the last time I checked so that's nice, actually the last test I did was called "Heart dissease risk assesment test", it came back as "very low", but I can't find LP(a), LP-PLA2, I wanted to do NMR/LDL-P/LDL-C last time (as I'm aware of what it is), but there was some issue with a lab so I will try a different one next time, tho' I'm pretty sure I have genetics going with me regarding lipid profile (if a good dose of tren for 3+ months can't affect it to any serious degree, idk what could..). I'm approaching 30 btw.
And you mentioned calcium test. I won't take it anytime soon due to radiation (I'm nowhere near of having kids and it's probably not good for health anyway), but I will make sure to include LP=PLA2 next time. Regarding calcium, I've been doing a lot to avoid calcification for the last 5 years or so. Precisely - make sure that my fat soluble vitamins are in good proportions (D, A, K), don't use calcium supplements (just dairy products) and my calcium level in blood serum is right in the midle. Certain steroids, btw, very effectively increase calcium absorbtion to the bones. I took a serious approach to this when I went to my dentist ~4-5 years ago and she said "Woops... it seems your teeth are degenerating, getting very soft, that's bad. Have you tried calcium?" (yeah for fuck sake, I was using calcium supplements you bitch, can't you suggest anything else?). It was the wrong approach. Long story short - balancing my FS vitamins and a dose of d-bol (which is known to increase calcium absorbtion in the bones) reversed all the degeneraton and she could not believe her eyes half a year later when I came back.
IGF... yes, I'm still not certain about this. Mice studies are confusing and doesn't always translate to humans, some show it's bad, some show it may be good. I think best bet in this case would be to make sure the stem cells are in a good shape. Overall - good post of yours, I'm saving it as we speak, and will assess my future testing.
It's anecdotical obviously, but someone like R.Robinson is a good example of how one can stay healthy, young and strong at an advanced age with a careful supplementation.
p.s. - issues in electrcal conductivity - wouldn't they manifest as some irregular heart beats/palpitations/etc..?
Reading your response its clear you have a pretty good handle on things, far more so than the typical user. Quite refreshing actually :-) Most clueless bodybuilders have no idea and wouldnt venture into the realms of what you are having tested. Can I ask what your ferritin figure was? Generally in the medical community below 300 is considered good, however most recent research suggests that below 300 isnt good at all. You want to be below 100 really, ideally below 80.
Yes I am aware that some steroids improve calcification of bones very well, in some countries I believe primo at one point was used in extreme osteoporosis cases, dont quote me on that though ;-) The issue with that is if you fat soluble vitamins are not in order, you have calcium being deposited everywhere, however you are aware and dealing with that.
IGF-1 is not all bad, its essential, all the anabolic hormones are essential, we do need those anabolic processes to happen in our body for repair and growth of key tissues. if you look at animal studies with extreme fasting or calories restriction and IGF production is non existed the animals are not only emaciated but quite haggard and worn out too. Its all about striking a balance between renewal (growth) and repair.
Whether the studies prove it or not, in general when IGF is high, AMPK is low, AMPK is what regulates our repair processes, and if its low for long periods of time, we usually end up with the various metabolic conditions that are so familiar in the western world, cancer, diabetes, heart disease etc. If you spend half a year on via numerous cycles thats potentially a lot of time with low levels of AMPK. That said exercise does increase levels of AMPK, so the regular weight training may help combat the effect, although exercise induced AMPK does not seem to have as good effects as fasting induced AMPK.
I think one can contruct a program to minimise the potential for damage as much as possible, something around the leangains method would definately be the best option healthwise for those on AS. For someone who has used in the past and no longer cares about their physique and wants to optimise health as much as possible, I would just go with IF, low carb/keto and get bodyweight down to within 10% of what you weighed at 20. I still think this wont alter any structural changes to cardiac tissue though and that is a risk that has to be accepted by the user.
There was a study, in animals, that SERMS like clomid and nolvadex delpleted satellite cells, cant recall if the same applied to stem cells.
Palpitations were a symtom, but again they were intermittent. People would be fine and then prone to random periods of wildly erratic patterns.
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Reading your response its clear you have a pretty good handle on things, far more so than the typical user. Quite refreshing actually :-) Most clueless bodybuilders have no idea and wouldnt venture into the realms of what you are having tested. Can I ask what your ferritin figure was? Generally in the medical community below 300 is considered good, however most recent research suggests that below 300 isnt good at all. You want to be below 100 really, ideally below 80.
Yes I am aware that some steroids improve calcification of bones very well, in some countries I believe primo at one point was used in extreme osteoporosis cases, dont quote me on that though ;-) The issue with that is if you fat soluble vitamins are not in order, you have calcium being deposited everywhere, however you are aware and dealing with that.
IGF-1 is not all bad, its essential, all the anabolic hormones are essential, we do need those anabolic processes to happen in our body for repair and growth of key tissues. if you look at animal studies with extreme fasting or calories restriction and IGF production is non existed the animals are not only emaciated but quite haggard and worn out too. Its all about striking a balance between renewal (growth) and repair.
Whether the studies prove it or not, in general when IGF is high, AMPK is low, AMPK is what regulates our repair processes, and if its low for long periods of time, we usually end up with the various metabolic conditions that are so familiar in the western world, cancer, diabetes, heart disease etc. If you spend half a year on via numerous cycles thats potentially a lot of time with low levels of AMPK. That said exercise does increase levels of AMPK, so the regular weight training may help combat the effect, although exercise induced AMPK does not seem to have as good effects as fasting induced AMPK.
I think one can contruct a program to minimise the potential for damage as much as possible, something around the leangains method would definately be the best option healthwise for those on AS. For someone who has used in the past and no longer cares about their physique and wants to optimise health as much as possible, I would just go with IF, low carb/keto and get bodyweight down to within 10% of what you weighed at 20. I still think this wont alter any structural changes to cardiac tissue though and that is a risk that has to be accepted by the user.
There was a study, in animals, that SERMS like clomid and nolvadex delpleted satellite cells, cant recall if the same applied to stem cells.
Palpitations were a symtom, but again they were intermittent. People would be fine and then prone to random periods of wildly erratic patterns.
Yeah, I try not to take chances as much as I can and very obsessive about the details, yet I have a goal to be a next R.Robinson/T.Freeman/etc... I want to be in a shape of a highly trained 30yo at the age of 60. Feasible? Well I'll give it a shot.
I was pretty much anemic a few years ago, which just shows how much genetics influence (it's pretty difficult to be anemic while on hormones for most), that goes from my early teen years (probably some kind of defficiency in my mothers body while she was pregnant) so my ferritin levels just got back to a "normal range" not long ago (when I corrected the anemia, after a few tries with different approaches), I can't find the values you wrote in my panel (just a final result) , probably different kind of measurement they used, it's at the bottom level of "normal" (I guess I don't want to get it any higher).
Calcification is no joke, most people aren't doing it right (they use D, but not K and A, which are equally important. Or use A, but from plant sources, which are completely not absorbable by a human body, etc.. Organ meat is an excellent source of A.).
If you know stuff about AMPK, you are clearly well informed either. I'm currently trying to find out how could I raise my NAD levels.
I should grow the balls and attempt the leangains method at least for some time. I do practice 10-12 hours of "fasts" from time to time, but that's too short and too rare.
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:'( :'( :'(
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Yeah, I try not to take chances as much as I can and very obsessive about the details, yet I have a goal to be a next R.Robinson/T.Freeman/etc... I want to be in a shape of a highly trained 30yo at the age of 60. Feasible? Well I'll give it a shot.
I was pretty much anemic a few years ago, which just shows how much genetics influence (it's pretty difficult to be anemic while on hormones for most), that goes from my early teen years (probably some kind of defficiency in my mothers body while she was pregnant) so my ferritin levels just got back to a "normal range" not long ago (when I corrected the anemia, after a few tries with different approaches), I can't find the values you wrote in my panel (just a final result) , probably different kind of measurement they used, it's at the bottom level of "normal" (I guess I don't want to get it any higher).
Calcification is no joke, most people aren't doing it right (they use D, but not K and A, which are equally important. Or use A, but from plant sources, which are completely not absorbable by a human body, etc.. Organ meat is an excellent source of A.).
If you know stuff about AMPK, you are clearly well informed either. I'm currently trying to find out how could I raise my NAD levels.
I should grow the balls and attempt the leangains method at least for some time. I do practice 10-12 hours of "fasts" from time to time, but that's too short and too rare.
Thats good you are detail orientated, its that attitude that makes the difference between longevity and being a statistic. In your prior post I would also agree the competitive bodybuilding introduces another level of drug use of different types along with a very stressful metabolic state flpping between months of extreme calorie consumption and then food and water deprivation, this is just an additional external aging factor.
Thanks for mentioning about the anemia, as that makes it clear that your ferritin levels would be low. A normal range starts above 12ng/ml so you are very low. You can probably count that as a gift if you plan to use gear long term! Ferritin is associated with increased oxidised LDL particles, without going into too much detail. More ferritin = more oxidation = more bad LDL. You actually have "good" and bad LDL. Even if you have a healthy lifestyle but accumulating iron through your diet, you have a good chance of increasing your bad cholesterol and risks for heart disease. As you mentioned you comments about Tren having almost no effect, I was interested to know whether your ferritin was high or low and was expecting it to be low. Most people are saying that low carb is the best way to sort high cholesterol out, which overall I agree with as it has other health benefits, but I have been thinking that in many cases iron depletion may work just as well. if you dont deplete the iron stores down, you might find your LDL creeping back up if you dont stay on low carb all the time. Low carb keeps cholesterol oxidation low, but so does low ferritin.
In your case you are probably proof of that, your anaemia keeps your ferritin low, and steroids especially tren are well known for causing a huge shift towards bad LDL. The fact you have less ferritin available to oxidise LDL helps give you a bit of protection.
Consumption of organ meats as you say is another good thing to include to get the fat soluble vitamins, something I am trying to do more of myself.
Fasting wise 16 hours is the sweet spot, as catabolic effects only kicking after then. 12 is probably not enough if you are on a high calorie diet and eating lots of slow digesting foods. Question is whether fasting has any effect in the presence of anabolics that elevate IGF-1, one for the future study perhaps :)
There are some yeasts and bacteria that are supposed to be involved in recycling of NAD, Kefir a polish/eastern european drink that contains a diverse range probiotics and live yeasts, much more so than other probiotic drinks/yoghurts. Might be something to investigate, needs to be unpasteurised. Live yoghurt is still worth consuming anyway, as guy bacteria can help contribute to you vitamin K production as well.
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being the next robinson freeman is no problem if you got the same genetic makeup.
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being the next robinson freeman is no problem if you got the same genetic makeup.
True, but to be the mostest famous makeup wearing purse clutching bodybuilder you gots to have L'FORealZ makeup on.
Toss up between Phil and Shawn Ray.
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excellent thread. I usually just get HDL, LDL, and triglycerides done as part of a full blood panel, but on monday I'll get a cardiac profile to see how the tren I'm currently running is affecting me. If the values are fucked up, I'll be so sad to stop the tren :(. But health comes first
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Thats good you are detail orientated, its that attitude that makes the difference between longevity and being a statistic. In your prior post I would also agree the competitive bodybuilding introduces another level of drug use of different types along with a very stressful metabolic state flpping between months of extreme calorie consumption and then food and water deprivation, this is just an additional external aging factor.
Thanks for mentioning about the anemia, as that makes it clear that your ferritin levels would be low. A normal range starts above 12ng/ml so you are very low. You can probably count that as a gift if you plan to use gear long term! Ferritin is associated with increased oxidised LDL particles, without going into too much detail. More ferritin = more oxidation = more bad LDL. You actually have "good" and bad LDL. Even if you have a healthy lifestyle but accumulating iron through your diet, you have a good chance of increasing your bad cholesterol and risks for heart disease. As you mentioned you comments about Tren having almost no effect, I was interested to know whether your ferritin was high or low and was expecting it to be low. Most people are saying that low carb is the best way to sort high cholesterol out, which overall I agree with as it has other health benefits, but I have been thinking that in many cases iron depletion may work just as well. if you dont deplete the iron stores down, you might find your LDL creeping back up if you dont stay on low carb all the time. Low carb keeps cholesterol oxidation low, but so does low ferritin.
In your case you are probably proof of that, your anaemia keeps your ferritin low, and steroids especially tren are well known for causing a huge shift towards bad LDL. The fact you have less ferritin available to oxidise LDL helps give you a bit of protection.
Consumption of organ meats as you say is another good thing to include to get the fat soluble vitamins, something I am trying to do more of myself.
Fasting wise 16 hours is the sweet spot, as catabolic effects only kicking after then. 12 is probably not enough if you are on a high calorie diet and eating lots of slow digesting foods. Question is whether fasting has any effect in the presence of anabolics that elevate IGF-1, one for the future study perhaps :)
There are some yeasts and bacteria that are supposed to be involved in recycling of NAD, Kefir a polish/eastern european drink that contains a diverse range probiotics and live yeasts, much more so than other probiotic drinks/yoghurts. Might be something to investigate, needs to be unpasteurised. Live yoghurt is still worth consuming anyway, as guy bacteria can help contribute to you vitamin K production as well.
I'm glad we have this discussion. You gave me some new food for thought. The Ferritin part is very interesting, you may be right, it most probably played a part (in addition to my hereditary traits to be resistant to lipid issues, like my falimy members. We are thin, everyone, not a single obese person in my family from both sides, regardless of age/lifestyle).
Organ meats are tasty (for me), just a hell to prepare usualy (liver for ex.).
I know kefir, I could buy it. Have to look more into it. Sounds very simple, but hey, if it could work..
I think I won't worry too much about my iron for some time to come, unles I will start feeling sleepy/lack of air again (like when I was anemic). Too much iron is not good. It's pretty strange that hormones doesn't elevate my hemoglobin, must be some kind of genetic flaw.
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being the next robinson freeman is no problem if you got the same genetic makeup.
These guys are pretty smart cats, not your average airhead bodybuilder and not just lucky. Genetics + careful application of science - something may come out..
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just stuff yourself with this
(http://images.iherb.com/l/EDN-01100-2.jpg)
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Sauerkraut is medicine...
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Health effects[edit]
Benefits[edit]
Sauerkraut (including liquid)
Nutritional value per 100 g (3.5 oz)
Energy 78 kJ (19 kcal)
Carbohydrates
4.3 g
Sugars 1.8 g
Dietary fiber 2.9 g
Fat
0.14 g
Protein
0.9 g
Vitamins
Vitamin B6 (10%) 0.13 mg
Vitamin C (18%) 15 mg
Minerals
Iron (12%) 1.5 mg
Sodium (44%) 661 mg
Other constituents
Water 92 g
Units
μg = micrograms • mg = milligrams
IU = International units
Percentages are roughly approximated using US recommendations for adults.
Source: USDA Nutrient Database
Many health benefits have been claimed for sauerkraut.
It is a source of vitamins C, B, and K;[20] the fermentation process increases the bioavailability of nutrients rendering sauerkraut even more nutritious than the original cabbage.[21] It is also low in calories and high in calcium and magnesium, and it is a very good source of dietary fiber, folate, iron, potassium, copper and manganese.[20]
If unpasteurized and uncooked, sauerkraut also contains live lactobacilli and beneficial microbes and is rich in enzymes. The fiber and supply of probiotics improve digestion and promote the growth of healthy bowel flora, protecting against many diseases of the digestive tract.[21][22]
Sauerkraut has been used in Europe for centuries to treat stomach ulcers, and its effectiveness for soothing the digestive tract has been well established by numerous studies.[23]
Raw sauerkraut is distinctly different from store-bought, canned sauerkraut. While many food manufacturers can or jar their kraut using heat in order to extend shelf life, raw sauerkraut is lacto-fermented and is alive with good bacteria and probiotics. Raw sauerkraut is fermented over days or weeks at room temperature, packaged into jars with its own brine solution, then refrigerated to preserve the vitamins, enzymes, and beneficial bacteria without any heat. The lactic acid creates beneficial intestinal flora, balances stomach pH both directions, and helps break down proteins.[24]
During the American Civil War, the physician John Jay Terrell (1829–1922)[25][26] was able to successfully reduce the death rate from disease among prisoners of war; he attributed this to the practice of feeding his patients raw sauerkraut.[27]
Sauerkraut is a time-honored folk remedy for canker sores. It is used by rinsing the mouth with sauerkraut juice for about 30 seconds several times a day, or by placing a wad of sauerkraut against the affected area for a minute or so before chewing and swallowing the kraut.[28]
The October 23, 2002 issue of the Journal of Agriculture and Food Chemistry reported that Finnish researchers found the isothiocyanates produced in sauerkraut fermentation inhibit the growth of cancer cells in test tube and animal studies.[29] A Polish study in 2010 concluded that "... induction of the key detoxifying enzymes by cabbage juices, particularly sauerkraut, may be responsible for their chemopreventive activity demonstrated by epidemiological studies and in animal models".[30][31][32][33][34][35][36][37]
Sauerkraut is high in the antioxidants lutein and zeaxanthin, both associated with preserving ocular health.[38]
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Sauerkraut is medicine...
----
Health effects[edit]
Benefits[edit]
Sauerkraut (including liquid)
Nutritional value per 100 g (3.5 oz)
Energy 78 kJ (19 kcal)
Carbohydrates
4.3 g
Sugars 1.8 g
Dietary fiber 2.9 g
Fat
0.14 g
Protein
0.9 g
Vitamins
Vitamin B6 (10%) 0.13 mg
Vitamin C (18%) 15 mg
Minerals
Iron (12%) 1.5 mg
Sodium (44%) 661 mg
Other constituents
Water 92 g
Units
μg = micrograms • mg = milligrams
IU = International units
Percentages are roughly approximated using US recommendations for adults.
Source: USDA Nutrient Database
Many health benefits have been claimed for sauerkraut.
It is a source of vitamins C, B, and K;[20] the fermentation process increases the bioavailability of nutrients rendering sauerkraut even more nutritious than the original cabbage.[21] It is also low in calories and high in calcium and magnesium, and it is a very good source of dietary fiber, folate, iron, potassium, copper and manganese.[20]
If unpasteurized and uncooked, sauerkraut also contains live lactobacilli and beneficial microbes and is rich in enzymes. The fiber and supply of probiotics improve digestion and promote the growth of healthy bowel flora, protecting against many diseases of the digestive tract.[21][22]
Sauerkraut has been used in Europe for centuries to treat stomach ulcers, and its effectiveness for soothing the digestive tract has been well established by numerous studies.[23]
Raw sauerkraut is distinctly different from store-bought, canned sauerkraut. While many food manufacturers can or jar their kraut using heat in order to extend shelf life, raw sauerkraut is lacto-fermented and is alive with good bacteria and probiotics. Raw sauerkraut is fermented over days or weeks at room temperature, packaged into jars with its own brine solution, then refrigerated to preserve the vitamins, enzymes, and beneficial bacteria without any heat. The lactic acid creates beneficial intestinal flora, balances stomach pH both directions, and helps break down proteins.[24]
During the American Civil War, the physician John Jay Terrell (1829–1922)[25][26] was able to successfully reduce the death rate from disease among prisoners of war; he attributed this to the practice of feeding his patients raw sauerkraut.[27]
Sauerkraut is a time-honored folk remedy for canker sores. It is used by rinsing the mouth with sauerkraut juice for about 30 seconds several times a day, or by placing a wad of sauerkraut against the affected area for a minute or so before chewing and swallowing the kraut.[28]
The October 23, 2002 issue of the Journal of Agriculture and Food Chemistry reported that Finnish researchers found the isothiocyanates produced in sauerkraut fermentation inhibit the growth of cancer cells in test tube and animal studies.[29] A Polish study in 2010 concluded that "... induction of the key detoxifying enzymes by cabbage juices, particularly sauerkraut, may be responsible for their chemopreventive activity demonstrated by epidemiological studies and in animal models".[30][31][32][33][34][35][36][37]
Sauerkraut is high in the antioxidants lutein and zeaxanthin, both associated with preserving ocular health.[38]
I read that one cup of cooked sauerkraut contains over 1 trillion probiotics
Fermented food rules for gut health
It would take roughly 20-25 probiotic pills a day just to the equal a cup of sauerkraut
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It's a lifestyle choice people make.
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Oh well, who cares if they all die relatively young, it's their choice to mess up their body and mind just for other people's entertainment. Bodybuilding is a drug cult, said Vince Gironda a long time ago
BB is quite boring usually so I have to admit that I like reading about dead bodybuilders: sort of a lot more spectacular than when they were alive and it just proves my theory that training is about health :-)
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:'( :'( :'( :'(
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:'( :'( :'( :'(