steroids and shitloads of drugs killing every pro bodybuilder on the planet

[thegamechanger]

i managed to find a report on pubmed

"Cause and manner of death among users of anabolic androgenic steroids."

"Medicolegally investigated deaths among 34 male users of anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) are described. Nine persons were victims of homicide, 11 had committed suicide, 12 deaths were judged as accidental and 2 as indeterminate. "
 

[thegamechanger]

here's another great find

"Exposure to anabolic-androgenic steroids shortens life span of male mice."

[MORTALCOIL]

i managed to find a report on pubmed

"Cause and manner of death among users of anabolic androgenic steroids."

"Medicolegally investigated deaths among 34 male users of anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) are described. Nine persons were victims of homicide, 11 had committed suicide, 12 deaths were judged as accidental and 2 as indeterminate. "
 

So using steroids increase your chances of getting offed or offing yourself for no other reasons then pinning yourself?

[thegamechanger]

maybe the more steroids you use the bigger the risk that you run into myers, jason or freddy kruger 

[MORTALCOIL]

maybe the more steroids you use the bigger the risk that you run into myers, jason or freddy kruger 

Add TBombz and Goodrum to the list.

[thegamechanger]

name that steroid!


Attitudes towards use of anabolic-androgenic steroids among Ghanaian high school students.

"The overall lifetime prevalence of use was 3.8% (males=4.9%, females=3.1%). Moreover, 18.5% reported having an acquaintance that has used AAS while 6.0% of the sample had previously been offered AAS. However, none of the AAS users provided a valid name of the AAS they had used."


ghana is like 25 million people so if 5% take steroids (and die of heartattacks) thats 1,25 million  that sucks. the good news is that in ghana average life expectancy is 65 years so any health risks after that wont matter since theyll be dead anyway.

[da_vinci]

Out of interest what markers do you get done?

Specifically I'm quite interested in the more recent cardiac markers (mainly blood lipids and inflammation) that are available and have had quite a few done. Would you be able to share yours. If you have them, ones I am interested in are:

ApoA
ApoB
HS-CRP
LP(a)
LP-PLA2

I'm assuming as you said your values are all good, your regular lipid values are good ie LDL/HDL, out of interest what was your ferritin?

In reference back to your point, the main problems with blood work is that they dont measure what I see to be the two largest risk factors that steroids may bring, which is compromised electrical conductivity, which needs an EKG to show up (and even then it may not) and myocardial fibrosis which will only show up in a cardiac magnetic resonance scan. You are basically checking a myriad of what I would consider lower risk values, but missing the main two high risk ones.

I will try to get some of the values I test tomorrow as I'm pretty tired today already and will go for some sleep (one fast thing I can tell: after a solid blast of tren, which usualy sends lipids down the shitter for many, mine were affected just very slightly. Which I'm sure is genetic, as there are/were no people with heart disseases/diabetes/obesity in my family tree.). You raise interesting points, could you elaborate on the electrical conductivity? I may do these tests next time around as I have some "access" to a medical care system through my relatives so I can get pretty much any test I want for a lower price or even for free. Myocardial fibrosis is interesting too, but I'm on quite an extensive regimen of supplements, probably like 30+ substances (mostly natural), I think I'm outweighing at least some of the possible negatives (eat clean, no drugs or alcohol ever, etc..).

[Lord Chronos]

I will try to get some of the values I test tomorrow as I'm pretty tired today already and will go for some sleep (one fast thing I can tell: after a solid blast of tren, which usualy sends lipids down the shitter for many, mine were affected just very slightly. Which I'm sure is genetic, as there are/were no people with heart disseases/diabetes/obesity in my family tree.). You raise interesting points, could you elaborate on the electrical conductivity? I may do these tests next time around as I have some "access" to a medical care system through my relatives so I can get pretty much any test I want for a lower price or even for free. Myocardial fibrosis is interesting too, but I'm on quite an extensive regimen of supplements, probably like 30+ substances (mostly natural), I think I'm outweighing at least some of the possible negatives (eat clean, no drugs or alcohol ever, etc..).

Genetics will play a part for sure, so you are probably lucky on that part, or some other element of your diet or lifestyle in general is just right to mitigate the impact of gear on your lipid values.
In terms of the electrical conductivity, there are quite a few studies that seem to show, steroids can effect the conductivity of cardiac tissue. It doesnt seem to be a permanent change, but effectively the signals regulating the heart beat become erratic, in the studies I saw, they found that it was intermittent and occuring at certain times after intense physical exercise like cardio for example. Its not clear whether this is a physiological change or due to some kind of issue relating to electrolytes or mineral imbalance. I think one of the theories was that calcium was building up in cardiac tissue which impairs conductivity. Having an EKG would be worth doing anyway if you have access. Its not guaranteed to show anything up in regards to this specific issue, but it might show up other things. In my own opinion I would think if EKGS are used and they dont show a problem, that might suggest that its not a structural or physiological change, but rather some temporary imbalance caused by steroids affects on electrolytes or mineral balance.
Myocardial fibrosis happens to everyone but ramped up heavily in steroid use. There are things that could be done to reduce the effects via diet, red wine, once again, has been shown to possibly reduce the rate of fibrosis. Periodic periods of fasting (not good for bodybuilding) seem to be of benefit to the heart, cardiac tissue seems to do better on ketones.

I dont know if you are in US or Europe but the test names differ.

I the US you wont get APoA/B but something called LDL-P LDL-C, I think the test is called LDL NMR.
One other one worth doing is:
HBa1c - glycated hemaglobin

Ferritin
ApoA/ ApoB or NMR/LDL-P/LDL-C
HS-CRP
LP(a)
LP-PLA2

I dont know how old you are but if you are closer to 40 and have access a CAC or coronary calcium scan test is worth doing if you can get it cheap. It is the most effective test as it physically shows you what is actually in your arteries in terms of plaques so its very useful in seeing if you are setup for a heart attack/stroke. They suggest you only have this done once in your life, probably best after you have had children :-) as it involves a large dose of radiation and best done towards middle age. LP=PLA2 is your second best option to the CAC and is just a blood test.

I do believe that if one truly lives a healthy lifestyle, then they can mitigate some of the effects of steroids, however most of the effects we can mitigate are on the periphery, liver function, kidney function, test levels, hair loss, gyno,. Lipid values are more serious and again they can be regulated. Steroids actually do have some benefit in that they increase NO production which in turn has a positve effect on endothelial function but what we cant be sure of, and dont really know about, is what structural/functional affects are taking place in cardiac tissue. These are changes that are most likely long term and its not clear whether they reverse with time off.
Aside from these visible and "hidden" or noticable side effects, the main thing that cannot be mitigated is one of the fundamental priciniples on which steroids work, which is significantly increased levels of IGF-1. Having constantly elevated levels of IGF-1 by its most basic function means you have much higher levels of cell turnover...in the most basic sense aging. Basically you have tank of "life fuel", the more IGF-1 you have floating around everyday, the faster you burn your life fuel. The less IGF-1 the slower, we do need IGF-1 as we need it for the various normal anabolic type functions in our body, but we dont want to have it sky high 24/7 which is what steroids and a high calorie high protein diet will do. Im not saying only steroids do this thought, you can be 300lbs lazy obese guy eating mcdonalds every day, sitting on his backside all day and eating shit loads of food will also keep his IGF-1 elevated. Ideally you want to have periods of high IGF-1 during the day and then lower levels for the bulk of the day. Anyway I'm starting to digress into the realms of longevity  

If you can get those tests, it would be good to see what they come back as.You can calculate some of your risk factors based on Lp(a), Athe apo's and pla2.

[honest]

Genetics will play a part for sure, so you are probably lucky on that part, or some other element of your diet or lifestyle in general is just right to mitigate the impact of gear on your lipid values.
In terms of the electrical conductivity, there are quite a few studies that seem to show, steroids can effect the conductivity of cardiac tissue. It doesnt seem to be a permanent change, but effectively the signals regulating the heart beat become erratic, in the studies I saw, they found that it was intermittent and occuring at certain times after intense physical exercise like cardio for example. Its not clear whether this is a physiological change or due to some kind of issue relating to electrolytes or mineral imbalance. I think one of the theories was that calcium was building up in cardiac tissue which impairs conductivity. Having an EKG would be worth doing anyway if you have access. Its not guaranteed to show anything up in regards to this specific issue, but it might show up other things. In my own opinion I would think if EKGS are used and they dont show a problem, that might suggest that its not a structural or physiological change, but rather some temporary imbalance caused by steroids affects on electrolytes or mineral balance.
Myocardial fibrosis happens to everyone but ramped up heavily in steroid use. There are things that could be done to reduce the effects via diet, red wine, once again, has been shown to possibly reduce the rate of fibrosis. Periodic periods of fasting (not good for bodybuilding) seem to be of benefit to the heart, cardiac tissue seems to do better on ketones.

I dont know if you are in US or Europe but the test names differ.

I the US you wont get APoA/B but something called LDL-P LDL-C, I think the test is called LDL NMR.
One other one worth doing is:
HBa1c - glycated hemaglobin

Ferritin
ApoA/ ApoB or NMR/LDL-P/LDL-C
HS-CRP
LP(a)
LP-PLA2

I dont know how old you are but if you are closer to 40 and have access a CAC or coronary calcium scan test is worth doing if you can get it cheap. It is the most effective test as it physically shows you what is actually in your arteries in terms of plaques so its very useful in seeing if you are setup for a heart attack/stroke. They suggest you only have this done once in your life, probably best after you have had children :-) as it involves a large dose of radiation and best done towards middle age. LP=PLA2 is your second best option to the CAC and is just a blood test.

I do believe that if one truly lives a healthy lifestyle, then they can mitigate some of the effects of steroids, however most of the effects we can mitigate are on the periphery, liver function, kidney function, test levels, hair loss, gyno,. Lipid values are more serious and again they can be regulated. Steroids actually do have some benefit in that they increase NO production which in turn has a positve effect on endothelial function but what we cant be sure of, and dont really know about, is what structural/functional affects are taking place in cardiac tissue. These are changes that are most likely long term and its not clear whether they reverse with time off.
Aside from these visible and "hidden" or noticable side effects, the main thing that cannot be mitigated is one of the fundamental priciniples on which steroids work, which is significantly increased levels of IGF-1. Having constantly elevated levels of IGF-1 by its most basic function means you have much higher levels of cell turnover...in the most basic sense aging. Basically you have tank of "life fuel", the more IGF-1 you have floating around everyday, the faster you burn your life fuel. The less IGF-1 the slower, we do need IGF-1 as we need it for the various normal anabolic type functions in our body, but we dont want to have it sky high 24/7 which is what steroids and a high calorie high protein diet will do. Im not saying only steroids do this thought, you can be 300lbs lazy obese guy eating mcdonalds every day, sitting on his backside all day and eating shit loads of food will also keep his IGF-1 elevated. Ideally you want to have periods of high IGF-1 during the day and then lower levels for the bulk of the day. Anyway I'm starting to digress into the realms of longevity  

If you can get those tests, it would be good to see what they come back as.You can calculate some of your risk factors based on Lp(a), Athe apo's and pla2.

You give very good advice throughout the thread, as a 90s bodybuilder who retired from competition due to the increasing drug requirement, Stress tests and bloodwork don't do anything, hardening of the arteries and plaque build up can only be detected on Calcium score tests a CT scan, this test isn't usually covered by insurance under a certain age under 50 without symptoms from an ECG, but usually detection there means the condition has progressed past a point where lifestyle changes will significantly alter the condition. As it requires out of pocket expense most bodybuilders won't take the test. But it is the single best way to find out how your use is effecting your heart which in the end will determine how long you live.

Early detection is critical and adjustment in lifestyle, I see insulin use in modern day guys progressing this even further, there is also a high percentage of modern guys with enlarged livers from fat deposits that seem to be increasing since the age of insulin, this seems to be easier to reverse than the cardiac issues which are irreversible all you can do is try to slow the progression on that one, once the hardening has started.

[thegamechanger]

lots of bro scientists in this thread.

is steroids more dangerous than for example drinking milk? i would say no.

[Rami]

lots of bro scientists in this thread.

is steroids more dangerous than for example drinking milk? i would say no.

Dare I even mention synthetic and exogenous creatine in this thread? (something I have personally vowed to never use again)

[da_vinci]

Genetics will play a part for sure, so you are probably lucky on that part, or some other element of your diet or lifestyle in general is just right to mitigate the impact of gear on your lipid values.
In terms of the electrical conductivity, there are quite a few studies that seem to show, steroids can effect the conductivity of cardiac tissue. It doesnt seem to be a permanent change, but effectively the signals regulating the heart beat become erratic, in the studies I saw, they found that it was intermittent and occuring at certain times after intense physical exercise like cardio for example. Its not clear whether this is a physiological change or due to some kind of issue relating to electrolytes or mineral imbalance. I think one of the theories was that calcium was building up in cardiac tissue which impairs conductivity. Having an EKG would be worth doing anyway if you have access. Its not guaranteed to show anything up in regards to this specific issue, but it might show up other things. In my own opinion I would think if EKGS are used and they dont show a problem, that might suggest that its not a structural or physiological change, but rather some temporary imbalance caused by steroids affects on electrolytes or mineral balance.
Myocardial fibrosis happens to everyone but ramped up heavily in steroid use. There are things that could be done to reduce the effects via diet, red wine, once again, has been shown to possibly reduce the rate of fibrosis. Periodic periods of fasting (not good for bodybuilding) seem to be of benefit to the heart, cardiac tissue seems to do better on ketones.

I dont know if you are in US or Europe but the test names differ.

I the US you wont get APoA/B but something called LDL-P LDL-C, I think the test is called LDL NMR.
One other one worth doing is:
HBa1c - glycated hemaglobin

Ferritin
ApoA/ ApoB or NMR/LDL-P/LDL-C
HS-CRP
LP(a)
LP-PLA2

I dont know how old you are but if you are closer to 40 and have access a CAC or coronary calcium scan test is worth doing if you can get it cheap. It is the most effective test as it physically shows you what is actually in your arteries in terms of plaques so its very useful in seeing if you are setup for a heart attack/stroke. They suggest you only have this done once in your life, probably best after you have had children :-) as it involves a large dose of radiation and best done towards middle age. LP=PLA2 is your second best option to the CAC and is just a blood test.

I do believe that if one truly lives a healthy lifestyle, then they can mitigate some of the effects of steroids, however most of the effects we can mitigate are on the periphery, liver function, kidney function, test levels, hair loss, gyno,. Lipid values are more serious and again they can be regulated. Steroids actually do have some benefit in that they increase NO production which in turn has a positve effect on endothelial function but what we cant be sure of, and dont really know about, is what structural/functional affects are taking place in cardiac tissue. These are changes that are most likely long term and its not clear whether they reverse with time off.
Aside from these visible and "hidden" or noticable side effects, the main thing that cannot be mitigated is one of the fundamental priciniples on which steroids work, which is significantly increased levels of IGF-1. Having constantly elevated levels of IGF-1 by its most basic function means you have much higher levels of cell turnover...in the most basic sense aging. Basically you have tank of "life fuel", the more IGF-1 you have floating around everyday, the faster you burn your life fuel. The less IGF-1 the slower, we do need IGF-1 as we need it for the various normal anabolic type functions in our body, but we dont want to have it sky high 24/7 which is what steroids and a high calorie high protein diet will do. Im not saying only steroids do this thought, you can be 300lbs lazy obese guy eating mcdonalds every day, sitting on his backside all day and eating shit loads of food will also keep his IGF-1 elevated. Ideally you want to have periods of high IGF-1 during the day and then lower levels for the bulk of the day. Anyway I'm starting to digress into the realms of longevity  

If you can get those tests, it would be good to see what they come back as.You can calculate some of your risk factors based on Lp(a), Athe apo's and pla2.

Ok, that is interesting. I'm from Europe, just looked at some of the values and they differ a little bit in how they are called. My Ferritin and HS-CRP were very good the last time I checked so that's nice, actually the last test I did was called "Heart dissease risk assesment test", it came back as "very low", but I can't find LP(a), LP-PLA2, I wanted to do NMR/LDL-P/LDL-C last time (as I'm aware of what it is), but there was some issue with a lab so I will try a different one next time, tho' I'm pretty sure I have genetics going with me regarding lipid profile (if a good dose of tren for 3+ months can't affect it to any serious degree, idk what could..). I'm approaching 30 btw.
 And you mentioned calcium test. I won't take it anytime soon due to radiation (I'm nowhere near of having kids and it's probably not good for health anyway), but I will make sure to include LP=PLA2 next time. Regarding calcium,  I've been doing a lot to avoid calcification for the last 5 years or so. Precisely - make sure that my fat soluble vitamins are in good proportions (D, A, K), don't use calcium supplements (just dairy products) and my calcium level in blood serum is right in the midle. Certain steroids, btw, very effectively increase calcium absorbtion to the bones. I took a serious approach to this when I went to my dentist ~4-5 years ago and she said "Woops... it seems your teeth are degenerating, getting very soft, that's bad. Have you tried calcium?" (yeah for fuck sake, I was using calcium supplements you bitch, can't you suggest anything else?). It was the wrong approach. Long story short - balancing my FS vitamins and a dose of d-bol (which is known to increase calcium absorbtion in the bones) reversed all the degeneraton and she could not believe her eyes half a year later when I came back.

 IGF... yes, I'm still not certain about this. Mice studies are confusing and doesn't always translate to humans, some show it's bad, some show it may be good. I think best bet in this case would be to make sure the stem cells are in a good shape. Overall - good post of yours, I'm saving it as we speak, and will assess my future testing.
 It's anecdotical obviously, but someone like R.Robinson is a good example of how one can stay healthy, young and strong at an advanced age with a careful supplementation.

p.s. - issues in electrcal conductivity - wouldn't they manifest as some irregular heart beats/palpitations/etc..?

[thegamechanger]

Dare I even mention synthetic and exogenous creatine in this thread? (something I have personally vowed to never use again)

sorry bro know nothing about that but im sure some of the other self taught experts in this thread can speak on that!

myself im kinda puzzled, apparantely we should live as long as possible so steroids, eating meat, drinking milk etc is obviously a big no-no, im trying to figure out how to mix bodybuilding for hypertrophy with calorie deficit diet.

[da_vinci]

im trying to figure out how to mix bodybuilding for hypertrophy with calorie deficit diet.

You could try leangains method. I'm still too pussy to dare it.

[muscularny]

no clue how anyone can think steroids are not dangerous lol obviously I am not talking about 200mg of test a week and few iu's of gh

[thegamechanger]

no clue how anyone can think steroids are not dangerous lol obviously I am not talking about 200mg of test a week and few iu's of gh

yes but is it more dangerous than say drinking milk? thats what we're debating here.

[da_vinci]

no clue how anyone can think steroids are not dangerous lol obviously I am not talking about 200mg of test a week and few iu's of gh

I'm just 200-300mgs over that dose and no gh. Acquired some serious mass with a few a lot higher blasts and have been able to maintain most of it for a long time. I think I'm not much worse than my friends who involve in binge drinking weekends and eat shit the rest of the weak.

[Lord Chronos]

You give very good advice throughout the thread, as a 90s bodybuilder who retired from competition due to the increasing drug requirement, Stress tests and bloodwork don't do anything, hardening of the arteries and plaque build up can only be detected on Calcium score tests a CT scan, this test isn't usually covered by insurance under a certain age under 50 without symptoms from an ECG, but usually detection there means the condition has progressed past a point where lifestyle changes will significantly alter the condition. As it requires out of pocket expense most bodybuilders won't take the test. But it is the single best way to find out how your use is effecting your heart which in the end will determine how long you live.

Early detection is critical and adjustment in lifestyle, I see insulin use in modern day guys progressing this even further, there is also a high percentage of modern guys with enlarged livers from fat deposits that seem to be increasing since the age of insulin, this seems to be easier to reverse than the cardiac issues which are irreversible all you can do is try to slow the progression on that one, once the hardening has started.

Totally agree, Im sure the fatty liver is from the pro's insulin abuse. Basically they are metabolically obese inside.

I think some of the cardiac issues are irreversible, mainly the fibrosis. Some autopsies of bodybuilders hearts have found significant fibrosis and scarring. Scarring is pretty much irreversible, there is somethings that may theoretically help like proteolytic ezymes, but even then we have no idea if it affects cardiac tissue.
Hardening of the ateries is due to multiple things, bad lipid profile intrinsic aging, calcification, glycation. There is a lot that can be done to reverse this. For any competitive bodybuilder, or on fact any person with coronary artery disease, I would suggest the best thing they could do is go on a low carb diet, with occasional periods in ketosis. Add to this daily intermittent fasting with 16 hours break every day, like Da'vinci suggested can be found on the lean gains site. A weekly fast of 24 hours. Long duration of low carbs will keep insulin low, allow the lipid profile to improve, it will also minimise glycation, although it wont reverse all the damage, it will imrpove the way the body regenerates and repairs soft tissue going forward.
Daily consumption of Vitamin K rich foods as well as supplement form of Vitamin K, Mk-7 and in particular Mk-4, both of which are very beneficial, but Mk-4 has been shown to possibly reverse arterial calcification.
Daily consumption of magnesium which acts a calcium channel blocker preventing the deposition of calcium into the arteries.
Three times a week whole body sun exposure to maximise natural vitamin D and Nitric oxide release.

Fasting in general will keep Mtor, IGF-1 and leptin all low, all three of which could be considered as drivers in aging. Muscle still has an important value in maintaining health, so weight training should still be continued.

[da_vinci]

I'd add that if steroids are being used, well they at least halt the loss of bone tissue (one of the positives). Regarding low carb, competitive bb'ers are somewhat doing that during pre contest period (the cut phase). Tho' competitive bodybuilding increases risks a lot imho, I know plenty of guys, and I know what are they using. It's quite beyond your regular steroid hormones.

[Lord Chronos]

Ok, that is interesting. I'm from Europe, just looked at some of the values and they differ a little bit in how they are called. My Ferritin and HS-CRP were very good the last time I checked so that's nice, actually the last test I did was called "Heart dissease risk assesment test", it came back as "very low", but I can't find LP(a), LP-PLA2, I wanted to do NMR/LDL-P/LDL-C last time (as I'm aware of what it is), but there was some issue with a lab so I will try a different one next time, tho' I'm pretty sure I have genetics going with me regarding lipid profile (if a good dose of tren for 3+ months can't affect it to any serious degree, idk what could..). I'm approaching 30 btw.
 And you mentioned calcium test. I won't take it anytime soon due to radiation (I'm nowhere near of having kids and it's probably not good for health anyway), but I will make sure to include LP=PLA2 next time. Regarding calcium,  I've been doing a lot to avoid calcification for the last 5 years or so. Precisely - make sure that my fat soluble vitamins are in good proportions (D, A, K), don't use calcium supplements (just dairy products) and my calcium level in blood serum is right in the midle. Certain steroids, btw, very effectively increase calcium absorbtion to the bones. I took a serious approach to this when I went to my dentist ~4-5 years ago and she said "Woops... it seems your teeth are degenerating, getting very soft, that's bad. Have you tried calcium?" (yeah for fuck sake, I was using calcium supplements you bitch, can't you suggest anything else?). It was the wrong approach. Long story short - balancing my FS vitamins and a dose of d-bol (which is known to increase calcium absorbtion in the bones) reversed all the degeneraton and she could not believe her eyes half a year later when I came back.

 IGF... yes, I'm still not certain about this. Mice studies are confusing and doesn't always translate to humans, some show it's bad, some show it may be good. I think best bet in this case would be to make sure the stem cells are in a good shape. Overall - good post of yours, I'm saving it as we speak, and will assess my future testing.
 It's anecdotical obviously, but someone like R.Robinson is a good example of how one can stay healthy, young and strong at an advanced age with a careful supplementation.

p.s. - issues in electrcal conductivity - wouldn't they manifest as some irregular heart beats/palpitations/etc..?

Reading your response its clear you have a pretty good handle on things, far more so than the typical user.  Quite refreshing actually :-) Most clueless bodybuilders have no idea and wouldnt venture into the realms of what you are having tested. Can I ask what your ferritin figure was? Generally in the medical community below 300 is considered good, however most recent research suggests that below 300 isnt good at all. You want to be below 100 really, ideally below 80.
Yes I am aware that some steroids improve calcification of bones very well, in some countries I believe primo at one point was used in extreme osteoporosis cases, dont quote me on that though ;-) The issue with that is if you fat soluble vitamins are not in order, you have calcium being deposited everywhere, however you are aware and dealing with that.
IGF-1 is not all bad, its essential, all the anabolic hormones are essential, we do need those anabolic processes to happen in our body for repair and growth of key tissues. if you look at animal studies with extreme fasting or calories restriction and IGF production is non existed the animals are not only emaciated but quite haggard and worn out too. Its all about striking a balance between renewal (growth) and repair.
Whether the studies prove it or not, in general when IGF is high, AMPK is low, AMPK is what regulates our repair processes, and if its low for long periods of time, we usually end up with the various metabolic conditions that are so familiar in the western world, cancer, diabetes, heart disease etc. If you spend half a year on via numerous cycles thats potentially a lot of time with low levels of AMPK. That said exercise does increase levels of AMPK, so the regular weight training may help combat the effect, although exercise induced AMPK does not seem to have as good effects as fasting induced AMPK.

I think one can contruct a program to minimise the potential for damage as much as possible, something around the leangains method would definately be the best option healthwise for those on AS. For someone who has used in the past and no longer cares about their physique and wants to optimise health as much as possible, I would just go with IF, low carb/keto and get bodyweight down to within 10% of what you weighed at 20. I still think this wont alter any structural changes to cardiac tissue though and that is a risk that has to be accepted by the user.

There was a study, in animals, that SERMS like clomid and nolvadex delpleted satellite cells, cant recall if the same applied to stem cells.

Palpitations were a symtom, but again they were intermittent. People would be fine and then prone to random periods of wildly erratic patterns.

[da_vinci]

Reading your response its clear you have a pretty good handle on things, far more so than the typical user.  Quite refreshing actually :-) Most clueless bodybuilders have no idea and wouldnt venture into the realms of what you are having tested. Can I ask what your ferritin figure was? Generally in the medical community below 300 is considered good, however most recent research suggests that below 300 isnt good at all. You want to be below 100 really, ideally below 80.
Yes I am aware that some steroids improve calcification of bones very well, in some countries I believe primo at one point was used in extreme osteoporosis cases, dont quote me on that though ;-) The issue with that is if you fat soluble vitamins are not in order, you have calcium being deposited everywhere, however you are aware and dealing with that.
IGF-1 is not all bad, its essential, all the anabolic hormones are essential, we do need those anabolic processes to happen in our body for repair and growth of key tissues. if you look at animal studies with extreme fasting or calories restriction and IGF production is non existed the animals are not only emaciated but quite haggard and worn out too. Its all about striking a balance between renewal (growth) and repair.
Whether the studies prove it or not, in general when IGF is high, AMPK is low, AMPK is what regulates our repair processes, and if its low for long periods of time, we usually end up with the various metabolic conditions that are so familiar in the western world, cancer, diabetes, heart disease etc. If you spend half a year on via numerous cycles thats potentially a lot of time with low levels of AMPK. That said exercise does increase levels of AMPK, so the regular weight training may help combat the effect, although exercise induced AMPK does not seem to have as good effects as fasting induced AMPK.

I think one can contruct a program to minimise the potential for damage as much as possible, something around the leangains method would definately be the best option healthwise for those on AS. For someone who has used in the past and no longer cares about their physique and wants to optimise health as much as possible, I would just go with IF, low carb/keto and get bodyweight down to within 10% of what you weighed at 20. I still think this wont alter any structural changes to cardiac tissue though and that is a risk that has to be accepted by the user.

There was a study, in animals, that SERMS like clomid and nolvadex delpleted satellite cells, cant recall if the same applied to stem cells.

Palpitations were a symtom, but again they were intermittent. People would be fine and then prone to random periods of wildly erratic patterns.

Yeah, I try not to take chances as much as I can and very obsessive about the details, yet I have a goal to be a next R.Robinson/T.Freeman/etc... I want to be in a shape of a highly trained 30yo at the age of 60. Feasible? Well I'll give it a shot.
 I was pretty much anemic a few years ago, which just shows how much genetics influence (it's pretty difficult to be anemic while on hormones for most), that goes from my early teen years (probably some kind of defficiency in my mothers body while she was pregnant) so my ferritin levels just got back to a "normal range" not long ago (when I corrected the anemia, after a few tries with different approaches), I can't find the values you wrote in my panel (just a final result) , probably different kind of measurement they used, it's at the bottom level of "normal" (I guess I don't want to get it any higher).

Calcification is no joke, most people aren't doing it right (they use D, but not K and A, which are equally important. Or use A, but from plant sources, which are completely not absorbable by a human body, etc.. Organ meat is an excellent source of A.).

If you know stuff about AMPK, you are clearly well informed either. I'm currently trying to find out how could I raise my NAD levels.


I should grow the balls and attempt the leangains method at least for some time. I do practice 10-12 hours of "fasts" from time to time, but that's too short and too rare.

[funk51]

 

[Lord Chronos]

Yeah, I try not to take chances as much as I can and very obsessive about the details, yet I have a goal to be a next R.Robinson/T.Freeman/etc... I want to be in a shape of a highly trained 30yo at the age of 60. Feasible? Well I'll give it a shot.
 I was pretty much anemic a few years ago, which just shows how much genetics influence (it's pretty difficult to be anemic while on hormones for most), that goes from my early teen years (probably some kind of defficiency in my mothers body while she was pregnant) so my ferritin levels just got back to a "normal range" not long ago (when I corrected the anemia, after a few tries with different approaches), I can't find the values you wrote in my panel (just a final result) , probably different kind of measurement they used, it's at the bottom level of "normal" (I guess I don't want to get it any higher).

Calcification is no joke, most people aren't doing it right (they use D, but not K and A, which are equally important. Or use A, but from plant sources, which are completely not absorbable by a human body, etc.. Organ meat is an excellent source of A.).

If you know stuff about AMPK, you are clearly well informed either. I'm currently trying to find out how could I raise my NAD levels.


I should grow the balls and attempt the leangains method at least for some time. I do practice 10-12 hours of "fasts" from time to time, but that's too short and too rare.

Thats good you are detail orientated, its that attitude that makes the difference between longevity and being a statistic. In your prior post I would also agree the competitive bodybuilding introduces another level of drug use of different types along with a very stressful metabolic state flpping between months of extreme calorie consumption and then food and water deprivation, this is just an additional external aging factor.

Thanks for mentioning about the anemia, as that makes it clear that your ferritin levels would be low. A normal range starts above 12ng/ml so you are very low. You can probably count that as a gift if you plan to use gear long term! Ferritin is associated with increased oxidised LDL particles, without going into too much detail. More ferritin = more oxidation = more bad LDL. You actually have "good" and bad LDL. Even if you have a healthy lifestyle but accumulating iron through your diet, you have a good chance of increasing your bad cholesterol and risks for heart disease. As you mentioned you comments about Tren having almost no effect, I was interested to know whether your ferritin was high or low and was expecting it to be low. Most people are saying that low carb is the best way to sort high cholesterol out, which overall I agree with as it has other health benefits, but I have been thinking that in many cases iron depletion may work just as well. if you dont deplete the iron stores down, you might find your LDL creeping back up if you dont stay on low carb all the time. Low carb keeps cholesterol oxidation low, but so does low ferritin.
In your case you are probably proof of that, your anaemia keeps your ferritin low, and steroids especially tren are well known for causing a huge shift towards bad LDL. The fact you have less ferritin available to oxidise LDL helps give you a bit of protection.
Consumption of organ meats as you say is another good thing to include to get the fat soluble vitamins, something I am trying to do more of myself.

Fasting wise 16 hours is the sweet spot, as catabolic effects only kicking after then. 12 is probably not enough if you are on a high calorie diet and eating lots of slow digesting foods. Question is whether fasting has any effect in the presence of anabolics that elevate IGF-1, one for the future study perhaps

There are some yeasts and bacteria that are supposed to be involved in recycling of NAD, Kefir a polish/eastern european drink that contains a diverse range probiotics and live yeasts, much more so than other probiotic drinks/yoghurts. Might be something to investigate, needs to be unpasteurised. Live yoghurt is still worth consuming anyway, as guy bacteria can help contribute to you vitamin K production as well.

[thegamechanger]

being the next robinson freeman is no problem if you got the same genetic makeup.

[The Scott]

being the next robinson freeman is no problem if you got the same genetic makeup.

True, but to be the mostest famous makeup wearing purse clutching bodybuilder you gots to have L'FORealZ makeup on.

Toss up between Phil and Shawn Ray.