Meh, sounds worse in description than it looked. It's not like he Paul Orndorffed her, he more or less just somewhat violently tipped her chair back. She should've behaved herself.
This is the story that should have people talking -
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/corey-jones-florida-drummer-fatally-shot-cop-hit-3-times-n449206 .
Why?
I've read a few other reports that the officer was in an unmarked car, and not in uniform (http://www.wctv.tv/home/headlines/Family-Seeks-Answers-after-Church-Drummer-Killed-by-Officer-335722811.html), and perhaps out of his designated patrol area. So even though he was forced to shoot, it still raises questions about the initial contact and how it was handled.
I think in any shooting there are questions, regardless of in uniform or out. I think the initial response these days is to assume it's a bad shooting. There could be a number of situations in which the shooting was legit, just as there are a number of scenarios where it wouldn't be. What is wrong with actually waiting until the facts come out?
lol at the black girl behind her barely noticing and carrying on with her ipad work. Hahaha. So sad that these blacks are just so use to this shit it barely disrupts them.
you are a dickhead.The kid was on her phone in class and the teacher asked her to get off of it or leave the class and the girl refused to listen. Doesn't matter what color she was but guarantee if she was a white chick this wouldn't even be on the news. So go protest racism somewhere else asshole.
i see a girl trying to avoid confrontation. you see through a racist's eyes. you judge each incident based on others you've seen and an opinion you've settled on.
you are a dickhead.
i seea girl trying to avoid confrontation. you see through a racist's eyes. you judge each incident based on others you've seen and an opinion you've settled on.what I believe.
If the parentsdid it first, the cop wouldn't have to.
There's a level of disrespect among the kids these days that needs yo be choked and yanked out of them.
yes violence is the answer
You think taking them fishing would work better?your uppity tone has you cruising or a bruisin'
This is true. Bad parenting lead to that chicks behavior. The cop may have been a bit excessive but this chick keeps other children from learning. I'd applaud that if I was one of the parents of these children who's education is stunted because of idiots like this in classrooms.
someone made a good point that if this cop acts this way in a public setting how does he treat people when no one is around watching.
Sure. The general thrust of my opinion is that there are stories that could benefit from a bit of passive public attention and discussion. Not some annoying kid getting her chair flipped.
Having attended NYC public schools, I can gladly and rightfully say this is exactly what some kids NEED!
What about teachers that have wound up in hospitals because of disrespectful and VIOLENT teenagers who have beat the shit out of them?
We don't know if this kid right here deserved it, but there are some that do, even worse than the treatment we see here.
and people thought this school is extremeI admire the accuracy of those strikes.
i'd like to see both the idiot and the kid get some time in the box.
kid is an idiot who belongs in jail, cop is being WAY too rough with a minor.
I was a teacher in a hard school, and I saw police take down kids in a fight very often. Chokehold, Flip and Drag were never used.
I attended a high school that had the 2nd worst suspension rate in new york city. The NYPD has their own desk/office inside the school, which is also patrolled by the NYPD.
Anyway, the cops behavior would not have worked on a kid in that high school, nor would it have elicited long term change in the student's behavior. Do that to a gang member and see how quick it escalates to someone getting killed.
This cop/peace officers (whatever he is) felt like a big man doing it to a female junior high school student. It would have been a whole different story if he was in a high school with extremely violent students.
i'd like to see both the idiot and the kid get some time in the box.
kid is an idiot who belongs in jail, cop is being WAY too rough with a minor.
I was a teacher in a hard school, and I saw police take down kids in a fight very often. Chokehold, Flip and Drag were never used.
I read somewhere she was 18. How old were you in junior high?
I didn't read the article, piggy. Just viewed the gif that was posted.
watching the video from this angle, it looks like he was attempting to pick her up out of the chair. Because she started fighting back, the chair came with her making it look worse than had she just went with him. I don't think his intention, from seeing the above video, was the slam her or the chair. Looks worse than it was.
lol at the black girl behind her barely noticing and carrying on with her ipad work. Hahaha. So sad that these blacks are just so use to this shit it barely disrupts them.
::)
Anyway, the cops behavior would not have worked on a kid in that high school, nor would it have elicited long term change in the student's behavior. Do that to a gang member and see how quick it escalates to someone getting killed.
This cop/peace officers (whatever he is) felt like a big man doing it to a female junior high school student. It would have been a whole different story if he was in a high school with extremely violent students.
This was completely uncalled for and a clear sign of police brutality.And the disrespect of the teacher, class and officer by this girl?
I wouldn't be surprised if more rioting breaks out over this incident.
"1"
And the disrespect of the teacher, class and officer by this girl?
Anyone know why the officer was called in the first place?
And the disrespect of the teacher, class and officer by this girl?
Anyone know why the officer was called in the first place?
She refused to leave or get off her phone.Now she's off her phone and gone. Sounds successful. Tired of these shitty kids and their disrespectful "I kin dew wuteva I want an ain't nobuddy gun dew sheet" attitudes.
If she had listened to the teacher, none of this would've happened.:o
And the disrespect of the teacher, class and officer by this girl?
Anyone know why the officer was called in the first place?
I'm sure there was good reason behind calling the cops, but I don't see a good reason why an officer of the law would practically beat on a child, especially an African American child with the current social climate as it stands.Quick google look brought up a more reasonable breakdown of events.
"1"
Should be in jail for playing on a phone during class ???
Quick google look brought up a more reasonable breakdown of events.
http://louderwithcrowder.com/spring-valley-latest-racist-police-brutality-story-changes-with-new-video/
I'm spoiled by posting on Getbig with all of the intelligent posters. Reading those comments were cringe worthy. How are there people, on both sides, this dumb walking the planet?
Students in US have no respect anymore, you can't discipline them or anything so the end results is this BS. Not that he had a right to do this, however, the entire atmosphere in schools now is the teacher is garbage.
This bad crooked ass cop has 2 lawsuits against him right now.
I read that he dates an African-American woman. So that will appear to be in his favor, probably.lol, if true...he won't be anymore.
you are a dickhead.
i see a girl trying to avoid confrontation. you see through a racist's eyes. you judge each incident based on others you've seen and an opinion you've settled on.
Girl was just being an ignorant bratExactly. It wasn't like the cop was sitting in class, she disrespected the teacher, who called the office, then she disrespected the teacher AND the administrator, who called the cop, then she disrespected ALL 3 of them until the cop removed her after several warnings and chances.
If the parentsdid it first, the cop wouldn't have to.
Exactly. It wasn't like the cop was sitting in class, she disrespected the teacher, who called the office, then she disrespected the teacher AND the administrator, who called the cop, then she disrespected ALL 3 of them until the cop removed her after several warnings and chances.
Out of curiosity, to those saying he overreacted, how would YOU have handled that situation?
Very simple, you grab her by the wrist and cuff her and don't act like a grown man does not have the power to physically do that. The girl landed on her neck and potentially could have broken a vertebrate rendering her paralyzed. The girl behind her could also have been struck in the face by the leg of the desk. The guy is a complete fucking moron.Lol!!
If the parentsdid it first, the cop wouldn't have to.
ur kidding right??He was referring to the other girl, seated behind the troublesome negro
I see a kid who doesnt listen to authority. Feels she can do whatever she wants and no one will tell her what to do. Teacher tell u to get off ur phone(or anything for that matter) you just do it. A police officer then ask you to do something...you do it. Girl was just being an ignorant brat
If the parentBest post in this threadsdid it first, the cop wouldn't have to.
Very simple, you grab her by the wrist and cuff her and don't act like a grown man does not have the power to physically do that. The girl landed on her neck and potentially could have broken a vertebrate rendering her paralyzed. The girl behind her could also have been struck in the face by the leg of the desk. The guy is a complete fucking moron.
lol, if true...he won't be anymore.
I'm sure there was good reason behind calling the cops, but I don't see a good reason why an officer of the law would practically beat on a child, especially an African American child with the current social climate as it stands.
"1"
Attitude or not, throwing / dragging a girl around like a ragdoll is just plain rediculous. Can't believe anyone that possesses logic would argue different. :/
What did the girl do in the first place to have the cops come over?
and people thought this school is extreme
Exactly. It wasn't like the cop was sitting in class, she disrespected the teacher, who called the office, then she disrespected the teacher AND the administrator, who called the cop, then she disrespected ALL 3 of them until the cop removed her after several warnings and chances.
Out of curiosity, to those saying he overreacted, how would YOU have handled that situation?
When issuing repeated orders doesn't work you believe it's appropriate to use violence on female children. This is considered appropriate parenting too, that's some tough loving. I feel sorry for your kids.
It's takes a bit of intelligence to deal with humans and people who lack that should not have the authority to use violence. The correct way to handle the situation is to establish a rapport and make a connection with the individual in order to defuse the situation.
Sometimes stupid people deserve a beating to smarten up,you want to act as if rules dont apply then get what u get.This world is full of idiots thinking laws and rules dont apply to them and those people should be ready for whatever comes their way.As far as im concerned kill all these inconsiderate people before they have kids they dont take care of.
When issuing repeated orders doesn't work you believe it's appropriate to use violence on female children. This is considered appropriate parenting too, that's some tough loving. I feel sorry for your kids.And what would you do?
It takes a bit of intelligence to deal with humans and people who lack that should not have the authority to use violence. The correct way to handle the situation is to establish a rapport and make a connection with the individual in order to defuse the situation.
And what would you do?
If I was the cop? I wouldn't do much.You're part of the problem.
I would assume my job is not to function as a bouncer for unruly kids in class. I'm amazed that this is what passes for normal. Just because someone calls you in to deal with a problem doesn't oblige you follow through like a robotic thug. The brain is a tool to be used for determining what is appropriate.
That's my personal opinion on policing, perhaps you disagree?
I'm not sure if you are trolling but this is similar to the video of the high white boy who wouldn't get out the car and told the police to go call his mom. if i'm correct, they broke the window, pulled him out and threw him to the ground. i can't see much difference.
if i had done this in school, my dad would have fucked me up in front of the class, told me to sit in the corner and look at the wall and the officer would have arrested him.
major disciplinary issues with kids today!
looks like a choke hold to start things off.
then the "raise you 12 inches off the ground before slamming.
then the extra toss for good measure.
he was known as "officer slam" on campus because he often took people down with such enthusiasm.
If I was the cop? I wouldn't do much.
I would assume my job is not to function as a bouncer for unruly kids in class. I'm amazed that this is what passes for normal. Just because someone calls you in to deal with a problem doesn't oblige you follow through like a robotic thug. The brain is a tool to be used for determining what is appropriate.
That's my personal opinion on policing, perhaps you disagree?
looks like a choke hold to start things off.
then the "raise you 12 inches off the ground before slamming.
then the extra toss for good measure.
he was known as "officer slam" on campus because he often took people down with such enthusiasm.
If I was the cop? I wouldn't do much.
I would assume my job is not to function as a bouncer for unruly kids in class. I'm amazed that this is what passes for normal. Just because someone calls you in to deal with a problem doesn't oblige you follow through like a robotic thug. The brain is a tool to be used for determining what is appropriate.
That's my personal opinion on policing, perhaps you disagree?
you can see here the 'bleeding heart' sherriff saying that the officer should have verbally tried to descalate the situation instead of resorting to force...after announcing that he's been terminated.
so settle down fellas, get some fresh air, count backwards from 10 and try to get some oxygen to your brains.
a good idea would be to direct your outrage at the sherrif for firing the officer, or the FBI and DOJ for launching a federal civil rights investigation. haha :D
As was expected.
I like this answer
Often times schools misuse the Resource officers and the Resource officers forget they aren't there to enforce "house rules" but enforce the law and maintain order. However, there is a point when it would become criminal. If the administrator informed the officer she is being expelled and to remove her from the school property, then it is criminal trespass at that point and the officer has legal authority. If it were just to take her to the office.. that would not be his job.
Who knows what their relationship is like, though. That's the sick part.Now I wonder if there is domestic violence within it?
Sheriff: School officer fired after tossing student in class
http://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/lawyer-teen-suffered-several-injuries-in-classroom-arrest/
The Hebrew will claim emotional stress and trauma from being flipped out of her desk, and receive a million dollar settlement. That's typically how this works.
Now I wonder if there is domestic violence within it?
That toss was the best thing to happen to her in a loooong time I'm guessingHow would you have handled that situation?
Political decision. He says the faculty backs Fields, the student who took the video supported Fields, Fields got high marks on a recent inspection etc etc. That he shouldn't have "let go" of the student is a pretty sorry reason to decide to terminate. Next time, just all the Sheriff. Again, that wouldn't have been my first option, but firing over it.. a bit much
This is a great thread-lots of sides to this story and some valid arguments-Her parents failed at raising a decent human.
Was it excessive? Yes. Could this have been avoided if she listened? Yes.
Do kids nowadays see authority the way we did? No.
Here is a question for you-
How would you feel (honestly) if this was your daughter?
If the parentsdid it first, the cop wouldn't have to.
This is a great thread-lots of sides to this story and some valid arguments-
Was it excessive? Yes. Could this have been avoided if she listened? Yes.
Do kids nowadays see authority the way we did? No.
Here is a question for you-
How would you feel (honestly) if this was your daughter?
How would you have handled that situation?
It's hard to say. It's a bad position to be in no matter what. Almost any physical contact with the subject can come across as monstrous if they are resisting and start screaming and jerking about. And there are a lot of things you could try that would likely be ineffective, making you look like an idiot while trying to be gentle. I've gotten people out of the car that didn't want to come out by joint lock, pressure point or just plain brute force on occasion but his idea would have worked had the chair been a secured to the ground vehicle seat. And honestly, had he applied a joint lock and she screamed and struggled and the chair fell over we'd still be having this conversation. Getting someone to do something they don't want to rarely looks pretty in real life.
Having said all that, I would have probably grabbed her arm and gave her instructions to get up.. which she would have refused. I would give her a direct order explaining she will be arrested if she doesn't comply. I would likely have went ahead at that point and handcuffed her while she was seated and asked an administrator to grab one side while I grabbed the other and unassed her from the chair and walk her out. There are pressure points under the ear that are a good place to start. There is a nasty thumb lock that I've found to be very effective on passive resisting subjects. But if I were that cops boss, I wouldn't fire him for that specific incident, but I would insure he has either a refresher, or initial training on dealing with non compliant resistance so this is handled differently next time.
I attended a high school that had the 2nd worst suspension rate in new york city. The NYPD has their own desk/office inside the school, which is also patrolled by the NYPD.
Anyway, the cops behavior would not have worked on a kid in that high school, nor would it have elicited long term change in the student's behavior. Do that to a gang member and see how quick it escalates to someone getting killed.
This cop/peace officers (whatever he is) felt like a big man doing it to a female junior high school student. It would have been a whole different story if he was in a high school with extremely violent students.
I find it very strange to arrest a student sitting silently at their desk. Just continue the class let the other kids leave and handle it after class. Schools can be pretty cult like, the teacher and admin had no problem with the way it was handled for example, this kind of thing is routine.
This is a great thread-lots of sides to this story and some valid arguments-
Was it excessive? Yes. Could this have been avoided if she listened? Yes.
Do kids nowadays see authority the way we did? No.
Here is a question for you-
How would you feel (honestly) if this was your daughter?
Her parents failed at raising a decent human.
Yes, but of course we KNOW that many kids won't listen. I don't think we could find a greater truism if we searched forever. We couldn't find a more expected thing in a million years of searching, in fact.
And you could see that her skull might get smashed on the wall, or that her neck could get broken at the hands of a full grown man.
... or the kid across the room, who trips on the computer cord trying to intervene. Or the helpful teacher rushing over from across the hall, slips on a carelessly discarded banana peel ...
I read the girl was new to the school, was very quiet and kept to herself.
Is it possible that a teenage girl was having a terrible day and was feeling crushed by some emotion unrelated to the scene?
It's hard to say. It's a bad position to be in no matter what. Almost any physical contact with the subject can come across as monstrous if they are resisting and start screaming and jerking about. And there are a lot of things you could try that would likely be ineffective, making you look like an idiot while trying to be gentle. I've gotten people out of the car that didn't want to come out by joint lock, pressure point or just plain brute force on occasion but his idea would have worked had the chair been a secured to the ground vehicle seat. And honestly, had he applied a joint lock and she screamed and struggled and the chair fell over we'd still be having this conversation. Getting someone to do something they don't want to rarely looks pretty in real life.Just a bad spot for an LEO to be in. Extremely difficult job, under appreciated by most and underpaid. I have a lot of respect for officers who do their job to the best of their abilities.
Having said all that, I would have probably grabbed her arm and gave her instructions to get up.. which she would have refused. I would give her a direct order explaining she will be arrested if she doesn't comply. I would likely have went ahead at that point and handcuffed her while she was seated and asked an administrator to grab one side while I grabbed the other and unassed her from the chair and walk her out. There are pressure points under the ear that are a good place to start. There is a nasty thumb lock that I've found to be very effective on passive resisting subjects. But if I were that cops boss, I wouldn't fire him for that specific incident, but I would insure he has either a refresher, or initial training on dealing with non compliant resistance so this is handled differently next time.
She's a teenage girl. She's emotionally crushed when her mom buys brown sugar pop tarts instead of strawberry.
She probably got less than 100 likes on an Instagram post or something
Right, like the guy who isn't presently burglarizing the house when cops find him later. That shit happened earlier, why on earth arrest him NOW when he's so not stealing anything?
And, of course, your suggestions don't undermine the teacher's authority one bit. I'm sure all the other would-be turds (who now know they can punk this teacher at will) would never even consider disrupting the class just for kicks.
Teenage girls can be almost mentally ill due to emotion. That's true. You know it, I know it, so why didn't the cop know it?He is a cop not a psychologist.
They called in the muscleman on this girl to make an example out of her and when she got it, that was exactly what was desired. The school's not complaining about it one bit. They seem to agree that it's the appropriate way to maintain an orderly learning environment. That's what cops are for!
Personally, I don't consider that an appropriate use of police. Maybe I just turn into a bleeding heart when big men beat down little girls. I guess well have to see what the DOJ has to say about it. :D
He is a cop not a psychologist.
Or maybe they just sick of her disrupting class every day.
A microchip implant would be a more humane solution to maintaining order, I support that or perhaps a device fitted to the chair. Maybe something that would administer a small electrical shock to unruly kids. Technology is the way of the future no cops required.
A microchip implant would be a more humane solution to maintaining order, I support that or perhaps a device fitted to the chair. Maybe something that would administer a small electrical shock to unruly kids. Technology is the way of the future no cops required.
Or maybe they just got sick of her disrupting class every day, stealing everyone's learning time. Certainly would explain why the school's on board.
Fuck it, though, another social justice hero. Knock yourselves out.
He is dumb as a box of rocks, is what.
Had she been disrupting class every day? (idk, serious)
Should have tazed the little brat.
No, just like the ten seconds on film. Always sat silently, never bothered a soul.
Everything I've read about her says she was quiet and kept to herself.
Everything I've read about her says she was quiet and kept to herself.
Everything I've read about her says she was quiet and kept to herself.I highly doubt that #dindunuffinsMyASS
Having worked in the schools I will tell you that we routinely called the police to remove students who were quiet and kept to themselves. ::)
So what information do you claim to have about this particular girl, then?
I highly doubt that #dindunuffinsMyASS
So what information do you claim to have about this particular girl, then?Don't be dense, who calls the police on a quiet innocent girl? Disrupting lazy bad attitude girl? yes
Still no excuse to behave until police force is necessary. The school is a place to learn, not to cause problems. Most kids get disciplined by the teachers which is(should be) more than enough.
This ugly dumb girl probably caused problems before, the teachers resorted to call police since they didn't see another option.
Now a policeman is now out of job, teachers/principals harassed by #blackshitematters all because her lazy dumb fat ass didn't want to listen to the teacher and was wasting everyones time anyway.
Don't be dense, who calls the police on a quiet innocent girl? Disrupting lazy bad attitude girl? yes
Most here are using their logic, unlike you.
At this point you're just trolling.
No info, in other words.
I like this answer
Often times schools misuse the Resource officers and the Resource officers forget they aren't there to enforce "house rules" but enforce the law and maintain order. However, there is a point when it would become criminal. If the administrator informed the officer she is being expelled and to remove her from the school property, then it is criminal trespass at that point and the officer has legal authority. If it were just to take her to the office.. that would not be his job.
Even if the officer has legal authority and could justify the use of force based on the "use of force protocols" it doesn't mean that he needs to resort to using force. Officers should exercise their biggest muscle - the brain - before resorting to body-slams. If an officer doesn't have common sense then he shouldn't be an officer.
Was this guy justified in his action? It's possible, but I lean on this being excessive. Going only based on the video - no idea what happened before - I'd say that his actions were, at the very least, bad from a "PR" point of view: he shows kids that cops are nothing but bullies with a badge. But, more importantly, to me it shows someone who's not in control of himself or the situation.
Remember that he's dealing with a child that is, at worse, guilty of trespassing by refusing to leave. Throwing the desk back, as he did, could have resulted in a devastating head injury when the back of the student's skull impacted the floor. We're not talking a small bruise here - we're talking life-altering traumatic brain injury. What about the fact that those desks are flimsy as fuck and one piece of metal snapping off could have easily resulted in the girl, himself or others being badly injured.
"Was this a reasonable use of force? Was his action justified? Should he be disciplined? Fired? Prosecuted" are all questions that we should ask. Not just in this case, but in every case when a cop resorts to force, because the authority to use force isn't be a blanket mandate to do so, and because we should not tolerate thugs because of a badge. And frankly, we shouldn't tolerate the chorus of cops and unions bosses that pop up and start riverdancing to "Afraid for his life! Cops face danger all the time!" across the thin blue line.
let's not enter on a "can you (dis-)prove god exist" debate 'cus it will go nowhere(U don't have any info either).
Use your reason and logic.. again WHO calls the police on a quiet innocent girl?
The girl was looking at her phone screen, and the teacher didn't want to accept that she was doing that (understandable). The teacher called in reinforcements. That's the way I understand it, but maybe someone can show something else.
Even if the officer has legal authority and could justify the use of force based on the "use of force protocols" it doesn't mean that he needs to resort to using force. Officers should exercise their biggest muscle - the brain - before resorting to body-slams. If an officer doesn't have common sense then he shouldn't be an officer.
Was this guy justified in his action? It's possible, but I lean on this being excessive. Going only based on the video - no idea what happened before - I'd say that his actions were, at the very least, bad from a "PR" point of view: he shows kids that cops are nothing but bullies with a badge. But, more importantly, to me it shows someone who's not in control of himself or the situation.
Remember that he's dealing with a child that is, at worse, guilty of trespassing by refusing to leave. Throwing the desk back, as he did, could have resulted in a devastating head injury when the back of the student's skull impacted the floor. We're not talking a small bruise here - we're talking life-altering traumatic brain injury. What about the fact that those desks are flimsy as fuck and one piece of metal snapping off could have easily resulted in the girl, himself or others being badly injured.
"Was this a reasonable use of force? Was his action justified? Should he be disciplined? Fired? Prosecuted" are all questions that we should ask. Not just in this case, but in every case when a cop resorts to force, because the authority to use force isn't be a blanket mandate to do so, and because we should not tolerate thugs because of a badge. And frankly, we shouldn't tolerate the chorus of cops and unions bosses that pop up and start riverdancing to "Afraid for his life! Cops face danger all the time!" across the thin blue line.
Objective source, I'm sure.
What do you know about it?? I want to have the right opinion on it, so fire away.
I read the girl was new to the school, was very quiet and kept to herself.
A quiet hebrew? Have you ever sat behind them in a movie theater? They are the loudest and most vocal ppl on the planet.
Yeah, he should have coddled her lest she get mad and kill someone
Brilliant approach to life.
What's your favorite brand of tampon?
That hasn't been covered nearly enough. Her skull came very close to colliding with the cinderblock wall, too, more than once. For someone apparently trying so hard to control the situation, he completely gave up control as to whether the girl would suffer a permanent serious injury or death from his actions. People need to think about that for a minute, because it says everything.
How can anyone continue to employ someone like him in that position? How could anyone have insurance against that?
That cop just fucked his own life , he shoulda offerd some fried chicken , force is never necessary when u think like a falcon
x2
Yeah, he should have coddled her lest she get mad and kill someone
Brilliant approach to life.
What's your favorite brand of tampon?
That cop just fucked his own life , he shoulda offerd some fried chicken , force is never necessary when u think like a falcon
When an officer deploys any less lethal tool or tactic, be it taser, bean bag shotgun, take down etc, there is always a possibility of serious injury.
In this case, I don't believe it was his intention to pull her back and to the floor, but to pick her up at the leg and upper body and lift her out of the chair. When she straightened out she became entangled in the chair making that impossible and he went to plan b. Had he begun by intentionally pulling her back in her chair to the ground, the concerns would be more valid but even then, people fall backwards in their chairs rather frequently with very few cases of serious injury that I'm aware of. She took many options away by her own actions. We talk about personal responsibility but often times we don't really mean it
Which is why instead of giving platitudes like "you can't armchair-quarterback the police" we should examine officers' use of force - lethal or less - and the policies governing the use of force every time. If it turns out the use of force policies could be improved, we should improve them. And if the officer violated them he should be disciplined or, depending on the severity of the incident, charged.
I'm curious, having written all the above, can you explain to me how you are, in any way, different from the lawyer for Eric Parker - the cop who body-slammed an elderly Indian man - that blamed the victim and his inability to speak English for his client's actions?
The question shouldn't be "what was his intention?" The question should be "were his actions reasonable and did he use any common sense?" I submit that they were not. You talk about how she "straightened out" and the cop went to plan B. First of all, it's bullshit to suggest that this takedown was a "backup plan". It wasn't. He reacted without thinking when her body didn't go limp and resorted to force - namely pushing her back. He didn't give her the opportunity to comply. If he felt she was resisting, he could have told her "don't resist, because that's a game you can't win. Get up and let's just go out." Instead he shoved her back and dragged her out. Is this the kind of behavior we expect from officers, who aside from adults, are supposed to be in control not only of the situation but of themselves and their emotions.
Let me also address something else. You (perhaps not unexpectedly) have the same mentality as most of your colleagues: that citizens need to become rag-dolls, to be manipulated and tossed about without offering any resistance, the moment a cop touches them. The problem with this mentality is that it doesn't take into account how people react: we have instincts and our bodies often times move almost automatically. You made that very point in a post of yours from earlier in the context of explaining why often times suspects are shot in the back: you explained that the human body can turn in milliseconds. So when cops, for example, react by slamming someone face down on a car hood on account that he is "resisting" because his hands don't feel like noodles when a cop tries to grab them, they are often the ones escalating the situation.
All based on a conveniently edited ten seconds or so. Perhaps you missed the part where her classmate said he did try the "game you can't win" stuff, repeatedly. This, after she'd already told the teacher and administrator to fuck off.
Fuck this bitch, all potential consequences were directly on her.
I haven't seen all the videos - I've only caught a glimpse of one playing on one of the cable networks. But let's assume that everything you describe happen - that she told the teacher and the administrator to fuck off, and that the cop came in and tried to get her to comply. And?Does this mean that the cop handled the situation appropriately from that point on?You don't address the point I'm trying to make: that officers expect people to go limp as soon as they are touched, and treat failure to do so as resistance which must be violently overcome. Agnostic007 thinks the officer may have tried to pick her up and she tensed her body forcing him to go to "plan B" - which was to take her down. Maybe it was, but should we not be asking "was this a good plan B?"
The police are neither infalliable norabove reproach and criticism. They are public servants and they operate within the framework that we, collectively, allow them to operate in. For example, many police organizations n?ow have standing orders to discontinue high-speed car chases to reduce the danger to the public, even if that means that the bad guy gets ago. It behooves us to examine their actions closely and to decide if the framework within which they are operating suits us.
No, this isn't how it works. The officer is responsible too: remember, he is only authorized to use reasonable force to achieve his duties. To give an extreme example: he could have responded by pulling out his service weapon and unloading a clip on thisstudent. But this would be unreasonable given the circumstances and he would be responsible - not the girl.
Keep in mind too, that the officer is supposed to be the adult and remain in control of his emotions. Did this officer act like an adult that's in control of his emotion? You seem to have examined the videos more closely than I. Can you tell us what the answer is
Still, your proposed solution was based on that clip, which is what I addressed. Had you opined on "excessive force" exclusively, I probably wouldn't have even replied.
The entire thrust of my argument was about excessive force.
You're a smart, reasonable guy, let me ask you this: Are you at all concerned about the others who've had valuable learning time stolen by this chick?
As a matter of fact I think that the kids learned a valuable lesson - much more valuable than what the original lesson plan called for.
Which is why instead of giving platitudes like "you can't armchair-quarterback the police" we should examine officers' use of force - lethal or less - and the policies governing the use of force every time. If it turns out the use of force policies could be improved, we should improve them. And if the officer violated them he should be disciplined or, depending on the severity of the incident, charged.
The question shouldn't be "what was his intention?" The question should be "were his actions reasonable and did he use any common sense?" I submit that they were not. You talk about how she "straightened out" and the cop went to plan B. First of all, it's bullshit to suggest that this takedown was a "backup plan". It wasn't. He reacted without thinking when her body didn't go limp and resorted to force - namely pushing her back. He didn't give her the opportunity to comply. If he felt she was resisting, he could have told her "don't resist, because that's a game you can't win. Get up and let's just go out." Instead he shoved her back and dragged her out. Is this the kind of behavior we expect from officers, who aside from adults, are supposed to be in control not only of the situation but of themselves and their emotions.
Let me also address something else. You (perhaps not unexpectedly) have the same mentality as most of your colleagues: that citizens need to become rag-dolls, to be manipulated and tossed about without offering any resistance, the moment a cop touches them. The problem with this mentality is that it doesn't take into account how people react: we have instincts and our bodies often times move almost automatically. You made that very point in a post of yours from earlier in the context of explaining why often times suspects are shot in the back: you explained that the human body can turn in milliseconds. So when cops, for example, react by slamming someone face down on a car hood on account that he is "resisting" because his hands don't feel like noodles when a cop tries to grab them, they are often the ones escalating the situation.
Stop resisting!
"I'm curious, having written all the above, can you explain to me how you are, in any way, different from the lawyer for Eric Parker - the cop who body-slammed an elderly Indian man - that blamed the victim and his inability to speak English for his client's actions?"
Yes I can. In the Eric Parker scenario, I view his reaction to a citizen who is not being confrontational, but the issue is he can't speak or understand English. His actions were not deemed to be a threat, nor was there cause for physical force. A reasonable person would attempt to grab onto the person and make some effort to indicate he was not fee to leave. 2 officers were present and both could exert control over the individual with little effort. In the case of the student; There was no communication problem. The officer had made reasonable attempts verbally to get her voluntary compliance. I don't see the force he used in removing her from the chair as overly excessive. Perhaps more than I would use, but not outside the realm of reasonable given the fact she caused the interaction to escalate by not complying and actively resisting. While I don't expect a person to become a rag doll, I don't expect them to actively resist a police officer.
.
Keep in mind too, that the officer is supposed to be the adult and remain in control of his emotions. Did this officer act like an adult that's in control of his emotion? You seem to have examined the videos more closely than I. Can you tell us what the answer is?
(https://heavyeditorial.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/benfieldsspringvalleyhighschoolsouthcarolina.gif?w=780)judging by the reactions of the other kids, just a typical day at school...
http://heavy.com/news/2015/10/ben-fields-richland-county-south-carolina-sheriff-deputy-spring-valley-high-school-photo-football-coach-bodybuilder-cop-student-desk-video-complaints/
When an officer deploys any less lethal tool or tactic, be it taser, bean bag shotgun, take down etc, there is always a possibility of serious injury. There is the example of the girl that was tased, hitting her head and becoming a vegetable. So you can "Could of" about any use of force.
In this case, I don't believe it was his intention to pull her back and to the floor, but to pick her up at the leg and upper body and lift her out of the chair. When she straightened out she became entangled in the chair making that impossible and he went to plan b. Had he begun by intentionally pulling her back in her chair to the ground, the concerns would be more valid but even then, people fall backwards in their chairs rather frequently with very few cases of serious injury that I'm aware of. She took many options away by her own actions. We talk about personal responsibility but often times we don't really mean it
Where is the kids mom..because I know the dads not in the picture. Should have been disciplined at home..then tho kid might have some respect
So many of these kids getting into trouble in the cities have actually grown up being beaten senseless by their mothers.
Is this what your vast research indicates?
You don't know many Blacks, I take it.
See, this is the kind of anecdotal "research" that gets dismissed as racist.
Prisons are filled with people who got plenty of "discipline" as children. So if you automatically think this girl's problem is that her ass wasn't beaten enough as a child, you're very possibly wrong.
As are you, 'cause they're actually filled with those who were mostly neglected altogether. Raised by the street instead, where behavior like this is completely normal.
Yup. That's it, right there.
Which is quite different than "discipline."
When it comes to parenting, I'm sure the two are forced to cross paths a time or two.
:)
"I haven't seen all the videos - I've only caught a glimpse of one playing on one of the cable networks. But let's assume that everything you describe happen - that she told the teacher and the administrator to fuck off, and that the cop came in and tried to get her to comply. And? Does this mean that the cop handled the situation appropriately from that point on?"
That is debatable. While I may not have handled it that way, I don't believe his choice was over the top. She removed many options by her actions
We don't expect people to go limp. We do expect them to stop resisting, but are prepared for the chance they won't in most cases.
As far as violently overcoming resistance, you can call it violent, explosive etc.
There is a chance, had he went about it gently, and wrestled with her in the chair for several minutes, she may tire, and give up and all is resolved. The is also a good chance it escalates into her eye gouging him or biting his nose off.. in which case we would all be watching the video saying "Look at that stupid cop..."
You are right, we do need to evaluate use of force incidents, and many departments have a system in place where every single use of force is reviewed. I think its a good thing. I would recommend the officer, barring no other issues, receive additional training in dealing with these type of situations. But I don't believe based on the information at hand, I would advocate firing him.
Let's look at a clip, shall we?That's how they write, and rewrite up, their log books. Everyday, they roll is a lie. No other way to get a pension. :-\
(https://heavyeditorial.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/benfieldsspringvalleyhighschoolsouthcarolina.gif?w=780)
Notice how he tries to grab her: he puts his arm from behind her head and around her throat. How would you expect most people to react to this? What's your reaction if someone were to do it to you? You say he's trying to extricate her, by "lifting her out" of the chair and that's why he grabs her leg. But the video shows that if that was his plan it was a poorly thought out one because it's literally impossible to quickly and efficiently extricate a person from the type of desk she's sitting at with the move he's trying to perform - the desk surface gets in the way and the body isn't a floppy rag doll on account of having bones. So when that extrication attempt - if you can call it that- predictably fails, he resorts to that "plan B" you mention: flipping the entire chair back. Again, the video is illuminating: remember that his hand is around her neck, so he uses it to yank her backwards, while at the same time lifting the bottom of the chair. The result is predictable: the chair lifts and rotates backwards. The girl - her head, neck and upper torso completely unprotected - slams against the floor hard. Her legs, trapped in the desk continue moving backwards, and almost hit the student behind her in the process, as the cop finally succeeds in separating the girl from the desk by dragging her away.
You say his choice wasn't over the top. I'm curious, what would have been? Would punching her in the face be over the top? Tasing her? Ordering her to stand up at gunpoint?
Ah, yes... "stop resisting". The war cry of the American cop.
I call a spade a spade. I understand that violence is sometimes required in your line of word. But I don't think that means we should use euphemisms to sugarcoat it or differentiate between cop violence and robber violence. Doing so is dangerous.
Sure, there's a chance. Of course, there's also a chance that she wouldn't have done any of those things you describe. It's a dangerous route to use "there's a chance that..." as a justification for this sort of thing. Mulling pulling someone over? Better PIT them instead - there's a chance they'd try to run and hit someone else. Chasing a suspect on foot? Better shoot his from behind and end the chase - there's a chance you could trip and fall.
I have no opinion on whether he should be fired or not. But I will say that having watched this video - and going only by the video - I don't think he has the temperament to be a cop. And I think you'll agree that one's temperament is very important in your line of work.
No, there shouldn't be even the tiniest doubt as to whether the guy should have been fired.
No, there shouldn't be even the tiniest doubt as to whether the guy should have been fired.Should get a promotion and a plaque on the school hero wall.
Should get a promotion and a plaque on the school hero wall.
Couldn't agree more.
And I hope you guys enjoy throwing out for the pleasure of having this employee.
There's a level of disrespect among the kids these days that needs yo be choked and yanked out of them.
If I ran a private school I'd hire him for security in a heartbeat.Robert E Lee excelsior.
If I ran a private school I'd hire him for security in a heartbeat.
Oh, yeah, same here; but mine wouldn't babysit such societal cancers in the first place.
Where's Ben Fields when you need him....
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=581_1446436696 (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=581_1446436696)
I hope you see how ridiculous your statement is.
Would you guys (the ones who think he shouldn't have been canned) ask him to please be more careful in the future, lol? Just wondering you would go forward.
Here are some techniques you can employ next time to remove a student who is passively resisting. Now that you have been shown these techniques, I expect you to use these.
You feel confident that his actions resulted from lack of training?
It's a possibility. may have been taught a couple in the academy, not sure how long ago that was, he may be due a refresher. But I think his career is certainly salvageable barring no other issues that training should be considered
So you'd say he may have not only forgotten the techniques, but also that there's a need for them?
when you ask if there is a need for them.. what do you mean? How would you propose getting someone to leave when they don't want to? maybe I misunderstood the question
Here are some techniques you can employ next time to remove a student who is passively resisting. Now that you have been shown these techniques, I expect you to use these.
This:
Why not just pat him on the back and tell him he did a good job, then?
In many situations, there are opportunities to improve. After every swat call there is a debrief/critique because there is usually something to improve on next time. In this case I think there is ample room for improvement, a better way to do it. Doesn't always mean what they did rises to suspension or termination.
Do you find it believable that he may have forgotten even the need to use technique?
This:I'd pat him on the back. He did what needed to be done.
Why not just pat him on the back and tell him he did a good job?
Good question actually. Sometimes officers go to what is most successful for them in the past. I was taught various techniques during the academy but on the street generally went with a handful that I either was good at or worked in similar situations. Had I found these not working it might be that I hadn't used the others in so long I had forgotten about them. I think in this case he likely intended to pick her up out of the chair. His thinking on techniques may not have come into play for many reasons, one may be that he was successful with this technique in the past on a student, I don't know. I don't think his original intent was what we saw. and in hindsight, he may, if asked say "I should have done X or Y or Z
Is it possible he said fuck it to the technique?
I'd pat him on the back. He did what needed to be done.
In many situations, there are opportunities to improve. After every swat call there is a debrief/critique because there is usually something to improve on next time. In this case I think there is ample room for improvement, a better way to do it. Doesn't always mean what they did rises to suspension or termination.
There are always opportunities to improve and people - not just cops - should take them. That's why surgeons make presentations to their peers about surgeries that didn't go according to plan; that's why software engineers have post-mortems after a software crash; that's why military pilots have debriefs after training exercises and dogfights.
Nobody is suggesting that every mistake rises to a suspension or a termination.Nobody is suggesting that every incident is suspect. Nobody is saying that cops should lose their jobs if they're anything short of perfect. What people are saying is that the pervasive culture of lax discipline and cop practically getting away with murder must come to and end. You may say these sort of things don't happen or that they are the exception and not the rule, but the facts say otherwise.
I do think you've been listening to Nobody very closely, because that's often exactly what he says. Also, what facts indicate cops are "practically getting away with murder"?
You'd probably suck his dick, too, but that's beside the point.And you'd probably still be negotiating with the little terrorist.
And you'd probably still be negotiating with the little terrorist.
I just read about this on the Police State thread, over at Politics and I thought I should post so TheUgly could see this:
Officer Lisa Mearkle tasered an unarmed man and kept ordering him to the ground and demanding he show his hands despite the fact that he was lying flats and his hands were showing. She then shot him, continuing to yell at him to show his hands as he died. She was charged with criminal homicide but was acquited of all charges. Here's the story and the video: http://thefreethoughtproject.com/shock-video-cop-executes-man-lying-face-complying/ (http://thefreethoughtproject.com/shock-video-cop-executes-man-lying-face-complying/)
According to an interview, she's planning on returning to her department to "serve" the citizens of her community. ???
I just read about this on the Police State thread, over at Politics and I thought I should post so TheUgly could see this:
Officer Lisa Mearkle tasered an unarmed man and kept ordering him to the ground and demanding he show his hands despite the fact that he was lying flats and his hands were showing. She then shot him, continuing to yell at him to show his hands as he died. She was charged with criminal homicide but was acquited of all charges. Here's the story and the video: http://thefreethoughtproject.com/shock-video-cop-executes-man-lying-face-complying/ (http://thefreethoughtproject.com/shock-video-cop-executes-man-lying-face-complying/)
According to an interview, she's planning on returning to her department to "serve" the citizens of her community. ???