Ben Fields / Power Lifter/School Officer

[The Ugly]

I haven't seen all the videos - I've only caught a glimpse of one playing on one of the cable networks. But let's assume that everything you describe happen - that she told the teacher and the administrator to fuck off, and that the cop came in and tried to get her to comply. And? Does this mean that the cop handled the situation appropriately from that point on?

You don't address the point I'm trying to make: that officers expect people to go limp as soon as they are touched, and treat failure to do so as resistance which must be violently overcome. Agnostic007 thinks the officer may have tried to pick her up and she tensed her body forcing him to go to "plan B" - which was to take her down. Maybe it was, but should we not be asking "was this a good plan B?"

The police are neither infalliable nor above reproach and criticism. They are public servants and they operate within the framework that we, collectively, allow them to operate in. For example, many police organizations now have standing orders to discontinue high-speed car chases to reduce the danger to the public, even if that means that the bad guy gets ago. It behooves us to examine their actions closely and to decide if the framework within which they are operating suits us.


No, this isn't how it works. The officer is responsible too: remember, he is only authorized to use reasonable force to achieve his duties. To give an extreme example: he could have responded by pulling out his service weapon and unloading a clip on this student. But this would be unreasonable given the circumstances and he would be responsible - not the girl.

Keep in mind too, that the officer is supposed to be the adult and remain in control of his emotions. Did this officer act like an adult that's in control of his emotion? You seem to have examined the videos more closely than I. Can you tell us what the answer is?

Still, your proposed solution was based on that clip, which is what I addressed. Had you opined on "excessive force" exclusively, I probably wouldn't have even replied.

So no point for me to read further.

[avxo]

Still, your proposed solution was based on that clip, which is what I addressed. Had you opined on "excessive force" exclusively, I probably wouldn't have even replied.

The entire thrust of my argument was about excessive force.

[The Ugly]

The entire thrust of my argument was about excessive force.

Wouldn't be having this discussion if so. Only replied because of how he should have approached her, per you.

You're a smart, reasonable guy, let me ask you this: Are you at all concerned about the others who've had valuable learning time stolen by this chick?

[avxo]

You're a smart, reasonable guy, let me ask you this: Are you at all concerned about the others who've had valuable learning time stolen by this chick?

As a matter of fact I think that the kids learned a valuable lesson - much more valuable than what the original lesson plan called for.

[The Ugly]

As a matter of fact I think that the kids learned a valuable lesson - much more valuable than what the original lesson plan called for.

Good point. Probably think twice before pulling out them silly phones next time.

[Agnostic007]

Which is why instead of giving platitudes like "you can't armchair-quarterback the police" we should examine officers' use of force - lethal or less - and the policies governing the use of force every time. If it turns out the use of force policies could be improved, we should improve them. And if the officer violated them he should be disciplined or, depending on the severity of the incident, charged.



The question shouldn't be "what was his intention?" The question should be "were his actions reasonable and did he use any common sense?" I submit that they were not. You talk about how she "straightened out" and the cop went to plan B. First of all, it's bullshit to suggest that this takedown was a "backup plan". It wasn't. He reacted without thinking when her body didn't go limp and resorted to force - namely pushing her back. He didn't give her the opportunity to comply. If he felt she was resisting, he could have told her "don't resist, because that's a game you can't win. Get up and let's just go out." Instead he shoved her back and dragged her out. Is this the kind of behavior we expect from officers, who aside from adults, are supposed to be in control not only of the situation but of themselves and their emotions.

Let me also address something else. You (perhaps not unexpectedly) have the same mentality as most of your colleagues: that citizens need to become rag-dolls, to be manipulated and tossed about without offering any resistance, the moment a cop touches them. The problem with this mentality is that it doesn't take into account how people react: we have instincts and our bodies often times move almost automatically. You made that very point in a post of yours from earlier in the context of explaining why often times suspects are shot in the back: you explained that the human body can turn in milliseconds. So when cops, for example, react by slamming someone face down on a car hood on account that he is "resisting" because his hands don't feel like noodles when a cop tries to grab them, they are often the ones escalating the situation.

"I'm curious, having written all the above, can you explain to me how you are, in any way, different from the lawyer for Eric Parker - the cop who body-slammed an elderly Indian man - that blamed the victim and his inability to speak English for his client's actions?"

Yes I can. In the Eric Parker scenario, I view his reaction to a citizen who is not being confrontational, but the issue is he can't speak or understand English. His actions were not deemed to be a threat, nor was there cause for physical force. A reasonable person would attempt to grab onto the person and make some effort to indicate he was not fee to leave. 2 officers were present and both could exert control over the individual with little effort. In the case of the student; There was no communication problem. The officer had made reasonable attempts verbally to get her voluntary compliance. I don't see the force he used in removing her from the chair as overly excessive. Perhaps more than I would use, but not outside the realm of reasonable given the fact she caused the interaction to escalate by not complying and actively resisting. While I don't expect a person to become a rag doll, I don't expect them to actively resist a police officer. 

[dr.chimps]

"I'm curious, having written all the above, can you explain to me how you are, in any way, different from the lawyer for Eric Parker - the cop who body-slammed an elderly Indian man - that blamed the victim and his inability to speak English for his client's actions?"

Yes I can. In the Eric Parker scenario, I view his reaction to a citizen who is not being confrontational, but the issue is he can't speak or understand English. His actions were not deemed to be a threat, nor was there cause for physical force. A reasonable person would attempt to grab onto the person and make some effort to indicate he was not fee to leave. 2 officers were present and both could exert control over the individual with little effort. In the case of the student; There was no communication problem. The officer had made reasonable attempts verbally to get her voluntary compliance. I don't see the force he used in removing her from the chair as overly excessive. Perhaps more than I would use, but not outside the realm of reasonable given the fact she caused the interaction to escalate by not complying and actively resisting. While I don't expect a person to become a rag doll, I don't expect them to actively resist a police officer. 

Stop resisting!

[Agnostic007]

.



Keep in mind too, that the officer is supposed to be the adult and remain in control of his emotions. Did this officer act like an adult that's in control of his emotion? You seem to have examined the videos more closely than I. Can you tell us what the answer is?

"I haven't seen all the videos - I've only caught a glimpse of one playing on one of the cable networks. But let's assume that everything you describe happen - that she told the teacher and the administrator to fuck off, and that the cop came in and tried to get her to comply. And? Does this mean that the cop handled the situation appropriately from that point on?"

That is debatable. While I may not have handled it that way, I don't believe his choice was over the top. She removed many options by her actions


"You don't address the point I'm trying to make: that officers expect people to go limp as soon as they are touched, and treat failure to do so as resistance which must be violently overcome. Agnostic007 thinks the officer may have tried to pick her up and she tensed her body forcing him to go to "plan B" - which was to take her down. Maybe it was, but should we not be asking "was this a good plan B?""

We don't expect people to go limp. We do expect them to stop resisting, but are prepared for the chance they won't in most cases. As far as violently overcoming resistance, you can call it violent, explosive etc. There is a chance, had he went about it gently, and wrestled with her in the chair for several minutes, she may tire, and give up and all is resolved. The is also a good chance it escalates into her eye gouging him or biting his nose off.. in which case we would all be watching the video saying "Look at that stupid cop..." You are right, we do need to evaluate use of force incidents, and many departments have a system in place where every single use of force is reviewed. I think its a good thing. I would recommend the officer, barring no other issues, receive additional training in dealing with these type of situations. But I don't believe based on the information at hand, I would advocate firing him.

  " The police are neither infalliable nor above reproach and criticism. They are public servants and they operate within the framework that we, collectively, allow them to operate in. For example, many police organizations now have standing orders to discontinue high-speed car chases to reduce the danger to the public, even if that means that the bad guy gets ago. It behooves us to examine their actions closely and to decide if the framework within which they are operating suits us"

Agree

 "No, this isn't how it works. The officer is responsible too: remember, he is only authorized to use reasonable force to achieve his duties. To give an extreme example: he could have responded by pulling out his service weapon and unloading a clip on this student. But this would be unreasonable given the circumstances and he would be responsible - not the girl."

Objectively reasonable is the metric police use. But you are correct, the officers actions are up for scrutiny. But the subjects actions are part of the equation

 

[Agnostic007]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/10/30/student-walkout-backs-fired-deputy-sc-school/74874920/

[funk51]

http://heavy.com/news/2015/10/ben-fields-richland-county-south-carolina-sheriff-deputy-spring-valley-high-school-photo-football-coach-bodybuilder-cop-student-desk-video-complaints/

   judging by the reactions of the other kids, just a typical day at school...

[Las Vegas]

When an officer deploys any less lethal tool or tactic, be it taser, bean bag shotgun, take down etc, there is always a possibility of serious injury. There is the example of the girl that was tased, hitting her head and becoming a vegetable. So you can "Could of" about any use of force.

Isn't this PRECISELY why we expect an officer to react in a way that is reasonable?
  

In this case, I don't believe it was his intention to pull her back and to the floor, but to pick her up at the leg and upper body and lift her out of the chair. When she straightened out she became entangled in the chair making that impossible and he went to plan b.  Had he begun by intentionally pulling her back in her chair to the ground, the concerns would be more valid but even then, people fall backwards in their chairs rather frequently with very few cases of serious injury that I'm aware of. She took many options away by her own actions. We talk about personal responsibility but often times we don't really mean it

As she became entangled in the chair, what do you claim his new plan was?

[Las Vegas]

good posts, axvo.

[calfzilla]

Ban cheap crappy school desks that have the chair attached to the desk, that's the real culprit 

[20inch calves]

Where is the kids mom..because I know the dads not in the picture. Should have been disciplined at home..then tho kid might have some respect

[The Ugly]

Where is the kids mom..because I know the dads not in the picture. Should have been disciplined at home..then tho kid might have some respect

 

[Las Vegas]

So many of these kids getting into trouble in the cities have actually grown up being beaten senseless by their mothers.

[The Ugly]

So many of these kids getting into trouble in the cities have actually grown up being beaten senseless by their mothers.

Is this what your vast research indicates?

[Las Vegas]

Is this what your vast research indicates?

You don't know many Blacks, I take it.

[Mitch]

[The Ugly]

You don't know many Blacks, I take it.

See, this is the kind of anecdotal evidence that gets dismissed as racist.

[Las Vegas]

See, this is the kind of anecdotal "research" that gets dismissed as racist.

Prisons are filled with people who got plenty of "discipline" as children.  So if you automatically think this girl's problem is that her ass wasn't beaten enough as a child, you're very possibly wrong.

[The Ugly]

Prisons are filled with people who got plenty of "discipline" as children.  So if you automatically think this girl's problem is that her ass wasn't beaten enough as a child, you're very possibly wrong.

As are you, 'cause they're actually filled with those who were mostly neglected altogether. Raised by the street instead, where behavior like this is completely normal.

[Las Vegas]

As are you, 'cause they're actually filled with those who were mostly neglected altogether. Raised by the street instead, where behavior like this is completely normal.

Yup.  That's it, right there.

[The Ugly]

Yup.  That's it, right there.

Which is quite different than "discipline."

[Las Vegas]

Which is quite different than "discipline."

When it comes to parenting, I'm sure the two are forced to cross paths a time or two.