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Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: WOOO on December 27, 2015, 02:32:45 AM
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This is a long read for small minded getbiggers but I found this article to be very interesting. France's Republic is failing in its duty to minorities. I'm certainly not excusing the killing of innocents. But there is more to the story than Islamic extremism.
Source: Toronto Star
Why France is failing its Muslims
While France has similar levels of immigration as Canada, even second- and third-generation immigrants suffer from systemic discrimination.
Marco Chown Oved STAFF REPORTER
Less than 72 hours after Paris suffered Europe’s most deadly terrorist attack in years, the capital region was in lockdown.
With tens of thousands of soldiers and police on high alert, youth in the suburbs still managed to set a car alight. Its smoking carapace was clearly visible from the commuter trains rumbling by.
Every year in France, between 30,000 and 40,000 cars are set on fire. Typically, they’re lit up in the peripheries of major cities, where second- and third-generation immigrants are concentrated.
It’s a number that has remained relatively constant for more than a decade and the most visible symptom of the alienation felt by France’s estimated 4 million Muslims.
“In some sense it is a cry for a help, but I think it’s more political than that,” said Mayanthi Fernando, a professor of anthropology at the University of California, Santa Cruz. “It’s the one way the suburbs get attention. . . If all of those people demonstrated quietly, no media would show up.”
For decades, France has welcomed newcomers at a similar rate as Canada. But several generations on, immigrants’ descendants remain stuck with worse academic results and higher unemployment, unable to benefit from the advantages their parents and grandparents had sought.
What has France got wrong?
“Muslim citizens in France are constantly being asked, ‘why haven’t you integrated?’ ” said Fernando.
When framed in this way, the onus is on French-born Muslims to explain their own exclusion, she said, when really, “it’s on society and the government to fulfil the rights these people have as citizens.”
While France’s immigrants come predominantly from Muslim countries — Algeria and Morroco top the list — once in France, they tend to get lumped together into a “monolithic” Islamic identity, said Fernando, who has first-hand experience teaching in the Parisian suburb of St-Denis.
“A Malian Muslim and a Moroccan Muslim have very different ways of practicing Islam and may not even identify as Muslim, but rather as Berber or Tuareg. Our understanding of these people as Muslims, and therefore as similar, is part of the problem when they are actually incredibly diverse.”
Critics say the French version of integration is about assimilation, requiring immigrants to dress, talk and think like the majority. Citoyens are supposed to be secular democrats, the thinking goes, not representatives of faraway cultures and religions.
This presents many immigrants (and their children) with an impossible choice: reject their identity or reject their country.
“For the last few years, there’s been a hijacking of secularism,” said Madjid Messaoudène, a city councillor in St-Denis.
What started out more than a century ago as a strict separation of church and state has turned into a tool to stigmatize any public display of religion, he said.
“They’ve hidden their racism behind secularism. But it’s not racism against Christianity or Judaism, it only targets Islam,” said Messaoudène. “You’ll never find someone who says, ‘No kippahs in Paris,’ ” he said, referring to the Jewish skullcap.
With more than 30 per cent foreign-born residents, St-Denis and neighbouring Aubervilliers are the two most heavily immigrant cities in France. In them, the first generation of immigrants tends to hide its origins while the second embraces its heritage.
“Today the new generation doesn’t live like their parents, who thought: ‘don’t make a fuss, fall in line, hide your religion at home.’ Today, we don’t care what others think. Those who practice their religion aren’t afraid to let it be known,” said Messaoudène.
When French-born youth assert their Muslim identity, they further distance themselves from the mainstream, reinforcing the discrimination they already experience.
“According to the advocates of this ‘regressive secularism,’ you have to choose between French and Muslim. For them, a beard is an ostentatious sign of western hatred, repression of women,” said Messaoudène. “The public space must allow all types of expression. . . This doesn’t endanger national cohesion. To the contrary, it enriches it.”
Many French people shuddered at the news that Canada had appointed several ministers who wear turbans. Still, Messaoudène believes excluding religion from public life in France can’t go on forever. During the last municipal elections, he said, several parties even fielded candidates who wore head scarves.
“There is a desire for French Muslims to participate in public life,” he said.
“One day, France’s institutions must reflect its population. That might take several years, but one day I hope to see a veiled minister in France. Veiled, feminist, competent and tolerant.”
© Toronto Star. All rights reserved.
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This is well known.
But here is your problem:
When framed in this way, the onus is on French-born Muslims to explain their own exclusion, she said, when really, “it’s on society and the government to fulfil the rights these people have as citizens.”
Critics say the French version of integration is about assimilation, requiring immigrants to dress, talk and think like the majority. Citoyens are supposed to be secular democrats, the thinking goes, not representatives of faraway cultures and religions.
This presents many immigrants (and their children) with an impossible choice: reject their identity or reject their country.
As Jon Cole will tell you, the French way is that you are either French or not. Period. You come to France, you live, talk, and think like a French person.
Also, the first quote. Notice how the person said that it is the society and government's responsibility? Sounds like good old fashion American "intergration". And older African Americans can tell you what was lost because of that.
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The onus is on the immigrant to assimilate, learn the language and customs of the host country. Comparing the treatment of Muslims in France to French Jews is ludicrous as the Jews speak French and fully participate in French culture. The muzzies hide in fortified ghettos and only venture out to commit crime.
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The onus is on the immigrant to assimilate, learn the language and customs of the host country. Comparing the treatment of Muslims in France to French Jews is ludicrous as the Jews speak French and fully participate in French culture. The muzzies hide in fortified ghettos and only venture out to commit crime.
Why would they want to participate with your racism?
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Why would they want to participate with your racism?
Apparently, it's baked into their DNA.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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The onus is on the immigrant to assimilate, learn the language and customs of the host country. Comparing the treatment of Muslims in France to French Jews is ludicrous as the Jews speak French and fully participate in French culture. The muzzies hide in fortified ghettos and only venture out to commit crime.
Please post a link the section in the French constitution which enshrined this "principle" of La Republique.
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Apparently, it's baked into their DNA.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
At some point we have to take responsibility for how racism makes it difficult for minorities/immigrants to fully participate in a culture.
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At some point we have to take responsibility for how racism makes it difficult for minorities/immigrants to fully participate in a culture.
Wait, what? Minorities are treated differently?
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At some point we have to take responsibility for how racism makes it difficult for minorities/immigrants to fully participate in a culture.
Wow, it's true. Racism really is your explanation for everything you don't like. Thanks to your continued debasement of the shock-value of the accusation, nobody gives a fuck if you call them racist.
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At some point we have to take responsibility for how racism makes it difficult for minorities/immigrants to fully participate in a culture.
Is there racism in African and middle east too? :(
Is thats the reason they are failing there?
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Wow, it's true. Racism really is your explanation for everything you don't like. Thanks to your continued debasement of the shock-value of the accusation, nobody gives a fuck if you call them racist.
Now you're going to try bullshitting us?!
It's okay to be racist, bigoted, or whatever. I just find it funny when people won't accept any responsibility whatsoever.
Does racism cause people to be radicalized? Of course not. Does racism isolate people and make them more susceptible to radicalization? Probably.
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Now you're going to try bullshitting us?!
It's okay to be racist, bigoted, or whatever. I just find it funny when people won't accept any responsibility whatsoever.
Does racism cause people to be radicalized? Of course not. Does racism isolate people and make them more susceptible to radicalization? Probably.
They just failed to optimize their bootstrap potential, is all. Marginalization is just an excuse for any social pathologies.
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They just failed to optimize their bootstrap potential, is all. Marginalization is just an excuse for any social pathologies.
Ahhh! :)
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They just failed to optimize their bootstrap potential, is all. Marginalization is just an excuse for any social pathologies.
::)
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At some point we have to take responsibility for how racism makes it difficult for minorities/immigrants to fully participate in a culture.
Really? Seems to me that people don't have to migrate anywhere, they choose to. And if France or the US is so racist, then why would they want to go there? If you migrate to America you become American, if you migrate to France you become French. If you want to hold on to your 3rd world bullshit and try to force the host nation to accommodate you, then fuck off.
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Really? Seems to me that people don't have to migrate anywhere, they choose to. And if France or the US is so racist, then why would they want to go there? If you migrate to America you become American, if you migrate to France you become French. If you want to hold on to your 3rd world bullshit and try to force the host nation to accommodate you, then fuck off.
You don't feel racism is an obstacle to integration?
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You don't feel racism is an obstacle to integration?
Question kinda falls apart on France. Brutal colonialists, horrible chauvinists, huge mythologists, all-round nasty people. Bah. That's all of us, I guess; it's just that the French embody these qualities so neatly.
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Question kinda falls apart on France. Brutal colonialists, horrible chauvinists, huge mythologists, all-round nasty people. Bah. That's all of us, I guess; it's just that the French embody these qualities so neatly.
No fan of the French for sure, but to suggest that the unassimilated Muslim horde on France is somehow the victim is pretty much the apogee of absurdity.
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No fan of the French for sure, but to suggest that the unassimilated Muslim horde on France is somehow the victim is pretty much the apogee of absurdity.
Keep trying.
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Question kinda falls apart on France. Brutal colonialists, horrible chauvinists, huge mythologists, all-round nasty people. Bah. That's all of us, I guess; it's just that the French embody these qualities so neatly.
But, but...they are the " US' longest ally", and they gave us the Statue of Liberty, and the Laissez faire culture, policies, and politics of Louisiana. That should account for something, right?
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You don't feel racism is an obstacle to integration?
I don't really care, like stated previously, if these countries are so racist then don't go there. You guys act like racism and bigotry is some new phenomenon, it has existed as long as people have. No matter how enlightened and civilized we pretend to be, people stick with their own kind.
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I don't really care, like stated previously, if these countries are so racist then don't go there. You guys act like racism and bigotry is some new phenomenon, it has existed as long as people have. No matter how enlightened and civilized we pretend to be, people stick with their own kind.
Its embedded in who we are as a species. From time immemorial, people have created in-groups and out-groups. For our ancestors, it was a way to survive; there was evolutionary benefit to knowing who was in your tribe or clan and who was not. To a great extent, we are hardwired to be biased, to form in-groups and out-groups. It's what we have been doing from the beginning of time, especially when we started to live in small (tribe) and large (clan) groups. However, we are also not slaves to our evolutionary leanings, either.
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Keep trying.
::)
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Its embedded in who we are as a species. From time immemorial, people have created in-groups and out-groups. For our ancestors, it was a way to survive; there was evolutionary benefit to knowing who was in your tribe or clan and who was not. To a great extent, we are hardwired to be biased, to form in-groups and out-groups. It's what we have been doing from the beginning of time, especially when we started to live in small (tribe) and large (clan) groups. However, we are also not slaves to our evolutionary leanings, either.
Being able to recognize people from other tribes had an evolutionary benefit.
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Being able to recognize people from other tribes had an evolutionary benefit.
you said the same thing SF said, years ago.
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you said the same thing SF said, years ago.
Thought I was reading one of my old posts, LOL!
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you said the same thing SF said, years ago.
Because its true. And look how true it is; we've been doing it for thousands and thousands and thousands of years, and will continue to do it.
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But, but...they are the " US' longest ally", and they gave us the Statue of Liberty, and the Laissez faire culture, policies, and politics of Louisiana. That should account for something, right?
Count. Not account.
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Because its true. And look how true it is; we've been doing it for thousands and thousands and thousands of years, and will continue to do it.
I refuse to tribe-up until some other tribe comes after me and mine.
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Also, the first quote. Notice how the person said that it is the society and government's responsibility? Sounds like good old fashion American "intergration". And older African Americans can tell you what was lost because of that.
What do you mean?
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Being able to recognize people from other tribes had an evolutionary benefit.
I know. Hence, the forming of in-groups and out-groups. And we still do it today, on all different levels. From the smallest, to the largest levels.
Perfect example: sports! There is no clearer evidence that we form small and large groups based on some association. And look at how primitive and tribal people act at a sports arena; painting their faces, wearing jerseys, using a specific language and/or dialect regarding their team, and having certain rituals and/or practices associated with their "team." Hmmm, not much different than what a tribe would do a few thousand years ago for an "event."
Now, of course, the way we form "tribes" in the 21st century in much different than the way people formed tribes a few thousand years ago. Many reasons for that. Nonetheless, you can still see tribal thinking in today's world.
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Count. Not account.
It's an idiom (account for something). I think in the context that I used it in, it is correct.
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Didn't read. I couldn't care less about the grievances of these fucking parasites.
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What do you mean?
Please specify. Do you mean intergration as a whole, or about older AAs and their view on intergration?
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Please specify. Do you mean intergration as a whole, or about older AAs and their view on intergration?
If you expanded on both I'd be grateful.
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If you expanded on both I'd be grateful.
Well, from the quote I had gathered that they were promoting a socialist agenda of the government is responsible for intergrating the people, not a joint effort. And it sounded like some sort of argument used back in the day, with school/cultural intergration of blacks.
Also, many older black folks have stated that intergration in many ways has helped lead black communities on a downward spiral. Before intergration, you had black doctors, lawyers, businesses, shopkeepers, and support, that cater to the community. Well, because that is all you really had. There was also a lot of pride and respect for your community, businesses, and people. With intergration, black folk developed a narrow minded view of their community and businesses as being inferior and white versions as being superior. Also, the lack of respect, and pride began.
Oddly, how in many black communities, foreigners move in and set up shops (like the Indian man in Ferguson who Mike Brown strong arm robbed) and exploit the community (monetarily and the women) and the money goes to their own communities, not the black communities that they set up shop in.
Also, you see a quasi-segregation with Latinos---communities have their own shops, groceries stores, businesses, and everything is done in spanish. And there is pride in their culture in those communities.
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It's an idiom (account for something). I think in the context that I used it in, it is correct.
American education system of peace
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/account+for
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American education system of peace
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/account+for
I concede, you are correct.
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/count+for (http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/count+for)
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France, the country, hasn't failed anyone. Muslims who choose to live as Muslims in a secular State MUST understand their religion is secondary to their rights as lawful citizens of country x.
Many Muslims are unwilling to make that sacrifice, hence THEIR dilemma.
H. O. W. E. V. A. H. They do have a choice, either stay and assimilate or move back to the Muslim lands they came from. Hence the "dilemma" isn't such.
Whoever thinks Muslim rage is a response to the Western World trying to impede them from living as Muslims doesn't know anything about history.
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France haahaahaa....the worlds' cuckold
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France, the country, hasn't failed anyone. Muslims who choose to live as Muslims in a secular State MUST understand their religion is secondary to their rights as lawful citizens of country x.
Many Muslims are unwilling to make that sacrifice, hence THEIR dilemma.
H. O. W. E. V. A. H. They do have a choice, either stay and assimilate or move back to the Muslim lands they came from. Hence the "dilemma" isn't such.
Whoever thinks Muslim rage is a response to the Western World trying to impede them from living as Muslims doesn't know anything about history.
Lol. You didn't read the article... It destroys your silly argument.
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Well, from the quote I had gathered that they were promoting a socialist agenda of the government is responsible for intergrating the people, not a joined effort. And it sounded like some sort of arguement used back in the day, with school/cultural intergration of blacks.
Also, many older black folks have stated that intergration in many ways has helped lead black communities on a downward spiral. Before intergration, you had black doctors, lawyers, businesses, shopkeepers, and support, that cater to the community. Well, that is all you really had. There was also a lot of pride and respect for your community, businesses, and people. With intergration, black folk developed a narrow minded view of their community and businesses as being inferior and white versions as being superior. Also, the lack of respect, and pride began.
Oddly, how in many black communities, foreigners move in and set up shops (like the Indian man in Ferguson who Mike Brown strong arm robbed) and exploit the community (monetarily and the women) and the money goes to their own communities, not the black communities that they set up shop in.
Also, you see a quasi-segregation with Latinos---communities have their own shops, groceries stores, businesses, and everything is done in spanish. And their is pride in their culture in those communities.
That's interesting... I suppose integration has drawbacks, too. But all in all, does it help those that choose to integrate, measured by their overall quality of life?
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Lol. You didn't read the article... It destroys your silly argument.
I did. And I still stand by what I said.
You can easily extrapolate what is happening to Muslims in France to what is happening to them everywhere else around the world. Hence it's not a French problem per se, it's a Muslim problem. And this problem stems from the impossibility of conciliating the rule of law and a religion that is based in a violent core belief system (and the résumé to prove it).
I mean, Muslims can blame it on everything but... even back in the late 1980s, when radical Islam was at its infancy, I remember Spaniards in a small town having a lot of problems with them and their unwillingness to adapt to simple things like the local pool etiquette, complaining that that church bell rang too loudly, or them being unwilling to register their wives to vote.
Basic civics shit.
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This is a long read for small minded getbiggers but I found this article to be very interesting. France's Republic is failing in its duty to minorities. I'm certainly not excusing the killing of innocents. But there is more to the story than Islamic extremism.
Source: Toronto Star
Why France is failing its Muslims
While France has similar levels of immigration as Canada, even second- and third-generation immigrants suffer from systemic discrimination.
Marco Chown Oved STAFF REPORTER
Less than 72 hours after Paris suffered Europe’s most deadly terrorist attack in years, the capital region was in lockdown.
With tens of thousands of soldiers and police on high alert, youth in the suburbs still managed to set a car alight. Its smoking carapace was clearly visible from the commuter trains rumbling by.
Every year in France, between 30,000 and 40,000 cars are set on fire. Typically, they’re lit up in the peripheries of major cities, where second- and third-generation immigrants are concentrated.
It’s a number that has remained relatively constant for more than a decade and the most visible symptom of the alienation felt by France’s estimated 4 million Muslims.
“In some sense it is a cry for a help, but I think it’s more political than that,” said Mayanthi Fernando, a professor of anthropology at the University of California, Santa Cruz. “It’s the one way the suburbs get attention. . . If all of those people demonstrated quietly, no media would show up.”
For decades, France has welcomed newcomers at a similar rate as Canada. But several generations on, immigrants’ descendants remain stuck with worse academic results and higher unemployment, unable to benefit from the advantages their parents and grandparents had sought.
What has France got wrong?
“Muslim citizens in France are constantly being asked, ‘why haven’t you integrated?’ ” said Fernando.
When framed in this way, the onus is on French-born Muslims to explain their own exclusion, she said, when really, “it’s on society and the government to fulfil the rights these people have as citizens.”
While France’s immigrants come predominantly from Muslim countries — Algeria and Morroco top the list — once in France, they tend to get lumped together into a “monolithic” Islamic identity, said Fernando, who has first-hand experience teaching in the Parisian suburb of St-Denis.
“A Malian Muslim and a Moroccan Muslim have very different ways of practicing Islam and may not even identify as Muslim, but rather as Berber or Tuareg. Our understanding of these people as Muslims, and therefore as similar, is part of the problem when they are actually incredibly diverse.”
Critics say the French version of integration is about assimilation, requiring immigrants to dress, talk and think like the majority. Citoyens are supposed to be secular democrats, the thinking goes, not representatives of faraway cultures and religions.
This presents many immigrants (and their children) with an impossible choice: reject their identity or reject their country.
“For the last few years, there’s been a hijacking of secularism,” said Madjid Messaoudène, a city councillor in St-Denis.
What started out more than a century ago as a strict separation of church and state has turned into a tool to stigmatize any public display of religion, he said.
“They’ve hidden their racism behind secularism. But it’s not racism against Christianity or Judaism, it only targets Islam,” said Messaoudène. “You’ll never find someone who says, ‘No kippahs in Paris,’ ” he said, referring to the Jewish skullcap.
With more than 30 per cent foreign-born residents, St-Denis and neighbouring Aubervilliers are the two most heavily immigrant cities in France. In them, the first generation of immigrants tends to hide its origins while the second embraces its heritage.
“Today the new generation doesn’t live like their parents, who thought: ‘don’t make a fuss, fall in line, hide your religion at home.’ Today, we don’t care what others think. Those who practice their religion aren’t afraid to let it be known,” said Messaoudène.
When French-born youth assert their Muslim identity, they further distance themselves from the mainstream, reinforcing the discrimination they already experience.
“According to the advocates of this ‘regressive secularism,’ you have to choose between French and Muslim. For them, a beard is an ostentatious sign of western hatred, repression of women,” said Messaoudène. “The public space must allow all types of expression. . . This doesn’t endanger national cohesion. To the contrary, it enriches it.”
Many French people shuddered at the news that Canada had appointed several ministers who wear turbans. Still, Messaoudène believes excluding religion from public life in France can’t go on forever. During the last municipal elections, he said, several parties even fielded candidates who wore head scarves.
“There is a desire for French Muslims to participate in public life,” he said.
“One day, France’s institutions must reflect its population. That might take several years, but one day I hope to see a veiled minister in France. Veiled, feminist, competent and tolerant.”
© Toronto Star. All rights reserved.
Kind of the reason you flee some shithole, is because you're not doing it right in your home country. Assimilate to the host culture or be singled out.
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Really? Seems to me that people don't have to migrate anywhere, they choose to. And if France or the US is so racist, then why would they want to go there? If you migrate to America you become American, if you migrate to France you become French. If you want to hold on to your 3rd world bullshit and try to force the host nation to accommodate you, then fuck off.
I like what this fucker is saying, it makes the most sense.
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Well, from the quote I had gathered that they were promoting a socialist agenda of the government is responsible for intergrating the people, not a joined effort. And it sounded like some sort of arguement used back in the day, with school/cultural intergration of blacks.
Also, many older black folks have stated that intergration in many ways has helped lead black communities on a downward spiral. Before intergration, you had black doctors, lawyers, businesses, shopkeepers, and support, that cater to the community. Well, that is all you really had. There was also a lot of pride and respect for your community, businesses, and people. With intergration, black folk developed a narrow minded view of their community and businesses as being inferior and white versions as being superior. Also, the lack of respect, and pride began.
Oddly, how in many black communities, foreigners move in and set up shops (like the Indian man in Ferguson who Mike Brown strong arm robbed) and exploit the community (monetarily and the women) and the money goes to their own communities, not the black communities that they set up shop in.
Also, you see a quasi-segregation with Latinos---communities have their own shops, groceries stores, businesses, and everything is done in spanish. And their is pride in their culture in those communities.
i agree here as well
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One day they'll probably end up with an Apartheid/Israel situation, build a massive wall and keep the areas separate.
Just like the last few decades of the Western Roman Empire, the barbarians and their 'refugees' escaping the Huns will carve out new territories within the borders and that will be the beginning of the end.
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I don't really care, like stated previously, if these countries are so racist then don't go there. You guys act like racism and bigotry is some new phenomenon, it has existed as long as people have. No matter how enlightened and civilized we pretend to be, people stick with their own kind.
Well summed up. Kazan.
Wether we like or not that is pretty much the truth of the matter.
Every one is racist to some degree & every country is racist.
Why can't people shut up about racism and get on with it.
If they don't like the country they went to simple Fcuk off back to the
Glorious Wonderful Shit hole they left & be Happy There.
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You guys are forgetting that countries like France DESPERATELY need immigrants.
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I don't really care, like stated previously, if these countries are so racist then don't go there. You guys act like racism and bigotry is some new phenomenon, it has existed as long as people have. No matter how enlightened and civilized we pretend to be, people stick with their own kind.
Fair point. Especially since the immigration into France is mainly from their former colonies. Colonies that have had hundreds of years of experience with French racism. So anyone claiming this racism was something the immigrants could not have suspected is being disingenuous at best.
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You guys are forgetting that countries like France DESPERATELY need immigrants.
Like I DESPERATELY need broken glass shoved violently up my urethra.
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You guys are forgetting that countries like France DESPERATELY need immigrants.
And in the future, who will the 'French' then be...?
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At some point we have to take responsibility for how racism makes it difficult for minorities/immigrants to fully participate in a culture.
Didn't keep the damned slant eyes from becoming Asian at everything.
Seems it's not all minorities that can't overcome oppression.
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And in the future, who will the 'French' then be...?
The same but browner.
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And in the future, who will the 'French' then be...?
Non existent, apparently they don't believe French culture is worth fighting for.
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The same but browner.
No, those 'browner' people have a different culture and religion.
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You guys are forgetting that countries like France DESPERATELY need immigrants.
And what would be the reason? ;D
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By Shawn Tully - Fortune Magazine
July 24, 2015,
It’s not Greece you should worry about.
The way Greece is hogging headlines and tormenting heads of state, you’d think a “Grexit” is the biggest threat to the eurozone’s future. It isn’t. The greatest danger—and it’s being mostly ignored—is the shocking slide in competitiveness of the single currency’s second- and third-largest economies, France and Italy. One ailment encapsulates Europe’s énorme problème: France can’t sell cars.
Put simply, the cost of making products in France is far higher than in the nations it competes with. The hourly labor expense of manufacturing a car or steel beam in France rose 17% over the past decade, more than twice the increase in Germany. And even though wages have merely tracked inflation since 2008, costs keep climbing because workers are getting less and less productive. That’s chiefly because France’s manufacturers are so starved for profits that they can’t afford to replace or refurbish antiquated plants and IT systems.
By contrast, Ireland, Spain, and Portugal have all acted while France fiddled, liberalizing their labor markets and lowering unit costs over the past six years by 7% to 12%. The results have been disastrous for France’s competitiveness. In the past 10 years its share of all EU exports dropped from 12% to 9.5%, the worst performance of any major country in Western Europe.
And it’s not just France that’s struggling. Italy’s products are now even pricier. From the late 1990s to mid-2000s, Italy’s manufacturing costs exploded. “Italy is the nation I’m watching,” says Uri Dadush, an economist at the Carnegie Endowment. “It’s lost an enormous amount of competitiveness to Germany, and things aren’t improving.”
http://fortune.com/2015/07/24/france-auto-sales/ (http://fortune.com/2015/07/24/france-auto-sales/)
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By Shawn Tully - Fortune Magazine
July 24, 2015,
It’s not Greece you should worry about.
The way Greece is hogging headlines and tormenting heads of state, you’d think a “Grexit” is the biggest threat to the eurozone’s future. It isn’t. The greatest danger—and it’s being mostly ignored—is the shocking slide in competitiveness of the single currency’s second- and third-largest economies, France and Italy. One ailment encapsulates Europe’s énorme problème: France can’t sell cars.
Put simply, the cost of making products in France is far higher than in the nations it competes with. The hourly labor expense of manufacturing a car or steel beam in France rose 17% over the past decade, more than twice the increase in Germany. And even though wages have merely tracked inflation since 2008, costs keep climbing because workers are getting less and less productive. That’s chiefly because France’s manufacturers are so starved for profits that they can’t afford to replace or refurbish antiquated plants and IT systems.
By contrast, Ireland, Spain, and Portugal have all acted while France fiddled, liberalizing their labor markets and lowering unit costs over the past six years by 7% to 12%. The results have been disastrous for France’s competitiveness. In the past 10 years its share of all EU exports dropped from 12% to 9.5%, the worst performance of any major country in Western Europe.
And it’s not just France that’s struggling. Italy’s products are now even pricier. From the late 1990s to mid-2000s, Italy’s manufacturing costs exploded. “Italy is the nation I’m watching,” says Uri Dadush, an economist at the Carnegie Endowment. “It’s lost an enormous amount of competitiveness to Germany, and things aren’t improving.”
http://fortune.com/2015/07/24/france-auto-sales/ (http://fortune.com/2015/07/24/france-auto-sales/)
While I do agree with the normalisation (economists call it "wage compression") that happened in Ireland and other bailout countries, it has had shitty side effects - not just lower wages but zero-hour contracts, the rise and rise of "internships" (ie working for free)... but in 2011/2012 it was needed. We were in a state.
France is a basket case. Total retards when it comes to macroeconomics. They strike (all - not just govt services) all the time... and they are disruptive assholes. Strike at port and allow terrorists into UK. Farmers protest by blocking ports for export with other countries. Close pharmacies. Total shitbag entitlement. You can't close a company that sells necessary drugs for LIVING over some stupid wage protest.
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France is a basket case. Total retards when it comes to macroeconomics. They strike (all - not just govt services) all the time... and they are disruptive assholes. Strike at port and allow terrorists into UK. Farmers protest by blocking ports for export with other countries. Close pharmacies. Total shitbag entitlement. You can't close a company that sells necessary drugs for LIVING over some stupid wage protest.
Yes, France is a basket case and it's failing all it's citizens, not just Muslims. It's ironic, France invented the phrase Laissez-faire, yet they don't seem to follow it.
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By Shawn Tully - Fortune Magazine
July 24, 2015,
It’s not Greece you should worry about.
The way Greece is hogging headlines and tormenting heads of state, you’d think a “Grexit” is the biggest threat to the eurozone’s future. It isn’t. The greatest danger—and it’s being mostly ignored—is the shocking slide in competitiveness of the single currency’s second- and third-largest economies, France and Italy. One ailment encapsulates Europe’s énorme problème: France can’t sell cars.
Put simply, the cost of making products in France is far higher than in the nations it competes with. The hourly labor expense of manufacturing a car or steel beam in France rose 17% over the past decade, more than twice the increase in Germany. And even though wages have merely tracked inflation since 2008, costs keep climbing because workers are getting less and less productive. That’s chiefly because France’s manufacturers are so starved for profits that they can’t afford to replace or refurbish antiquated plants and IT systems.
By contrast, Ireland, Spain, and Portugal have all acted while France fiddled, liberalizing their labor markets and lowering unit costs over the past six years by 7% to 12%. The results have been disastrous for France’s competitiveness. In the past 10 years its share of all EU exports dropped from 12% to 9.5%, the worst performance of any major country in Western Europe.
And it’s not just France that’s struggling. Italy’s products are now even pricier. From the late 1990s to mid-2000s, Italy’s manufacturing costs exploded. “Italy is the nation I’m watching,” says Uri Dadush, an economist at the Carnegie Endowment. “It’s lost an enormous amount of competitiveness to Germany, and things aren’t improving.”
http://fortune.com/2015/07/24/france-auto-sales/ (http://fortune.com/2015/07/24/france-auto-sales/)
Italy has been flooded with 'immigrants'/refugees for the past 15 years.
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At some point we have to take responsibility for how racism makes it difficult for minorities/immigrants to fully participate in a culture.
fuck off with your nonsense, f.aggot.
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Yes, France is a basket case and it's failing all it's citizens, not just Muslims. It's ironic, France invented the phrase Laissez-faire, yet they don't seem to follow it.
Laissez faire is an economic system which is broadly viewed as ineffective and which has no place in modern french economics. Please explain wtf you're taking about.