Author Topic: Why France is failing its Muslims  (Read 9672 times)

WOOO

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Why France is failing its Muslims
« on: December 27, 2015, 02:32:45 AM »
This is a long read for small minded getbiggers but I found this article to be very interesting. France's Republic is failing in its duty to minorities. I'm certainly not excusing the killing of innocents. But there is more to the story than Islamic extremism.


Source: Toronto Star

Why France is failing its Muslims

While France has similar levels of immigration as Canada, even second- and third-generation immigrants suffer from systemic discrimination.

Marco Chown Oved STAFF REPORTER

Less than 72 hours after Paris suffered Europe’s most deadly terrorist attack in years, the capital region was in lockdown.
With tens of thousands of soldiers and police on high alert, youth in the suburbs still managed to set a car alight. Its smoking carapace was clearly visible from the commuter trains rumbling by.
Every year in France, between 30,000 and 40,000 cars are set on fire. Typically, they’re lit up in the peripheries of major cities, where second- and third-generation immigrants are concentrated.
It’s a number that has remained relatively constant for more than a decade and the most visible symptom of the alienation felt by France’s estimated 4 million Muslims.
“In some sense it is a cry for a help, but I think it’s more political than that,” said Mayanthi Fernando, a professor of anthropology at the University of California, Santa Cruz. “It’s the one way the suburbs get attention. . . If all of those people demonstrated quietly, no media would show up.”
For decades, France has welcomed newcomers at a similar rate as Canada. But several generations on, immigrants’ descendants remain stuck with worse academic results and higher unemployment, unable to benefit from the advantages their parents and grandparents had sought.
What has France got wrong?
“Muslim citizens in France are constantly being asked, ‘why haven’t you integrated?’ ” said Fernando.
When framed in this way, the onus is on French-born Muslims to explain their own exclusion, she said, when really, “it’s on society and the government to fulfil the rights these people have as citizens.”
While France’s immigrants come predominantly from Muslim countries — Algeria and Morroco top the list — once in France, they tend to get lumped together into a “monolithic” Islamic identity, said Fernando, who has first-hand experience teaching in the Parisian suburb of St-Denis.
“A Malian Muslim and a Moroccan Muslim have very different ways of practicing Islam and may not even identify as Muslim, but rather as Berber or Tuareg. Our understanding of these people as Muslims, and therefore as similar, is part of the problem when they are actually incredibly diverse.”
Critics say the French version of integration is about assimilation, requiring immigrants to dress, talk and think like the majority. Citoyens are supposed to be secular democrats, the thinking goes, not representatives of faraway cultures and religions.
This presents many immigrants (and their children) with an impossible choice: reject their identity or reject their country.
“For the last few years, there’s been a hijacking of secularism,” said Madjid Messaoudène, a city councillor in St-Denis.
What started out more than a century ago as a strict separation of church and state has turned into a tool to stigmatize any public display of religion, he said.
“They’ve hidden their racism behind secularism. But it’s not racism against Christianity or Judaism, it only targets Islam,” said Messaoudène. “You’ll never find someone who says, ‘No kippahs in Paris,’ ” he said, referring to the Jewish skullcap.
With more than 30 per cent foreign-born residents, St-Denis and neighbouring Aubervilliers are the two most heavily immigrant cities in France. In them, the first generation of immigrants tends to hide its origins while the second embraces its heritage.
“Today the new generation doesn’t live like their parents, who thought: ‘don’t make a fuss, fall in line, hide your religion at home.’ Today, we don’t care what others think. Those who practice their religion aren’t afraid to let it be known,” said Messaoudène.
When French-born youth assert their Muslim identity, they further distance themselves from the mainstream, reinforcing the discrimination they already experience.
“According to the advocates of this ‘regressive secularism,’ you have to choose between French and Muslim. For them, a beard is an ostentatious sign of western hatred, repression of women,” said Messaoudène. “The public space must allow all types of expression. . . This doesn’t endanger national cohesion. To the contrary, it enriches it.”
Many French people shuddered at the news that Canada had appointed several ministers who wear turbans. Still, Messaoudène believes excluding religion from public life in France can’t go on forever. During the last municipal elections, he said, several parties even fielded candidates who wore head scarves.
“There is a desire for French Muslims to participate in public life,” he said.
“One day, France’s institutions must reflect its population. That might take several years, but one day I hope to see a veiled minister in France. Veiled, feminist, competent and tolerant.”

© Toronto Star. All rights reserved.

Method101

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Re: Why France is failing its Muslims
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2015, 04:35:34 AM »

Parker

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Re: Why France is failing its Muslims
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2015, 04:41:42 AM »
This is well known.
But here is your problem:

Quote
When framed in this way, the onus is on French-born Muslims to explain their own exclusion, she said, when really, “it’s on society and the government to fulfil the rights these people have as citizens.”

Quote
Critics say the French version of integration is about assimilation, requiring immigrants to dress, talk and think like the majority. Citoyens are supposed to be secular democrats, the thinking goes, not representatives of faraway cultures and religions.
This presents many immigrants (and their children) with an impossible choice: reject their identity or reject their country.

As Jon Cole will tell you, the French way is that you are either French or not. Period. You come to France, you live, talk, and think like a French person.
Also, the first quote. Notice how the person said that it is the society and government's responsibility? Sounds like good old fashion American "intergration". And older African Americans can tell you what was lost because of that.

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Re: Why France is failing its Muslims
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2015, 04:54:32 AM »
The onus is on the immigrant to assimilate, learn the language and customs of the host country. Comparing the treatment of Muslims in France to French Jews is ludicrous as the Jews speak French and fully participate in French culture. The muzzies hide in fortified ghettos and only venture out to commit crime.

drkaje

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Re: Why France is failing its Muslims
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2015, 05:07:34 AM »
The onus is on the immigrant to assimilate, learn the language and customs of the host country. Comparing the treatment of Muslims in France to French Jews is ludicrous as the Jews speak French and fully participate in French culture. The muzzies hide in fortified ghettos and only venture out to commit crime.

Why would they want to participate with your racism?

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Re: Why France is failing its Muslims
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2015, 05:14:06 AM »
Why would they want to participate with your racism?

Apparently, it's baked into their DNA.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Re: Why France is failing its Muslims
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2015, 05:22:15 AM »
The onus is on the immigrant to assimilate, learn the language and customs of the host country. Comparing the treatment of Muslims in France to French Jews is ludicrous as the Jews speak French and fully participate in French culture. The muzzies hide in fortified ghettos and only venture out to commit crime.


Please post a link the section in the French constitution which enshrined this "principle" of La Republique.

drkaje

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Re: Why France is failing its Muslims
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2015, 05:24:39 AM »
Apparently, it's baked into their DNA.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

At some point we have to take responsibility for how racism makes it difficult for minorities/immigrants to fully participate in a culture.

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Re: Why France is failing its Muslims
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2015, 05:31:21 AM »
At some point we have to take responsibility for how racism makes it difficult for minorities/immigrants to fully participate in a culture.
Wait, what? Minorities are treated differently?

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Re: Why France is failing its Muslims
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2015, 05:35:30 AM »
At some point we have to take responsibility for how racism makes it difficult for minorities/immigrants to fully participate in a culture.

Wow, it's true. Racism really is your explanation for everything you don't like. Thanks to your continued debasement of the shock-value of the accusation, nobody gives a fuck if you call them racist.

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Re: Why France is failing its Muslims
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2015, 05:45:25 AM »
At some point we have to take responsibility for how racism makes it difficult for minorities/immigrants to fully participate in a culture.
Is there racism in African and middle east too?  :(

Is thats the reason they are failing there?

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Re: Why France is failing its Muslims
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2015, 05:51:17 AM »
Wow, it's true. Racism really is your explanation for everything you don't like. Thanks to your continued debasement of the shock-value of the accusation, nobody gives a fuck if you call them racist.

Now you're going to try bullshitting us?!

It's okay to be racist, bigoted, or whatever. I just find it funny when people won't accept any responsibility whatsoever.

Does racism cause people to be radicalized? Of course not. Does racism isolate people and make them more susceptible to radicalization? Probably.

dr.chimps

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Re: Why France is failing its Muslims
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2015, 05:55:49 AM »
Now you're going to try bullshitting us?!

It's okay to be racist, bigoted, or whatever. I just find it funny when people won't accept any responsibility whatsoever.

Does racism cause people to be radicalized? Of course not. Does racism isolate people and make them more susceptible to radicalization? Probably.
They just failed to optimize their bootstrap potential, is all. Marginalization is just an excuse for any social pathologies. 

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Re: Why France is failing its Muslims
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2015, 05:58:30 AM »
They just failed to optimize their bootstrap potential, is all. Marginalization is just an excuse for any social pathologies. 

Ahhh! :)

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Re: Why France is failing its Muslims
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2015, 06:01:46 AM »
They just failed to optimize their bootstrap potential, is all. Marginalization is just an excuse for any social pathologies. 

 ::)

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Re: Why France is failing its Muslims
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2015, 06:15:05 AM »
At some point we have to take responsibility for how racism makes it difficult for minorities/immigrants to fully participate in a culture.

Really? Seems to me that people don't have to migrate anywhere, they choose to. And if France or the US is so racist, then why would they want to go there? If you migrate to America you become American, if you migrate to France you become French. If you want to hold on to your 3rd world bullshit and try to force the host nation to accommodate you, then fuck off. 
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Re: Why France is failing its Muslims
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2015, 06:18:53 AM »
Really? Seems to me that people don't have to migrate anywhere, they choose to. And if France or the US is so racist, then why would they want to go there? If you migrate to America you become American, if you migrate to France you become French. If you want to hold on to your 3rd world bullshit and try to force the host nation to accommodate you, then fuck off. 

You don't feel racism is an obstacle to integration?

dr.chimps

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Re: Why France is failing its Muslims
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2015, 06:36:46 AM »
You don't feel racism is an obstacle to integration?
Question kinda falls apart on France. Brutal colonialists, horrible chauvinists, huge mythologists, all-round nasty people. Bah. That's all of us, I guess; it's just that the French embody these qualities so neatly. 

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Re: Why France is failing its Muslims
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2015, 07:04:34 AM »
Question kinda falls apart on France. Brutal colonialists, horrible chauvinists, huge mythologists, all-round nasty people. Bah. That's all of us, I guess; it's just that the French embody these qualities so neatly. 

No fan of the French for sure, but to suggest that the unassimilated Muslim horde on France is somehow the victim is pretty much the apogee of absurdity.

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Re: Why France is failing its Muslims
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2015, 07:08:16 AM »
No fan of the French for sure, but to suggest that the unassimilated Muslim horde on France is somehow the victim is pretty much the apogee of absurdity.
Keep trying. 

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Re: Why France is failing its Muslims
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2015, 07:17:58 AM »
Question kinda falls apart on France. Brutal colonialists, horrible chauvinists, huge mythologists, all-round nasty people. Bah. That's all of us, I guess; it's just that the French embody these qualities so neatly. 
But, but...they are the " US' longest ally", and they gave us the Statue of Liberty, and the  Laissez faire culture, policies, and politics of Louisiana. That should account for something, right?

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Re: Why France is failing its Muslims
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2015, 07:39:54 AM »
You don't feel racism is an obstacle to integration?

I don't really care, like stated previously, if these countries are so racist then don't go there. You guys act like racism and bigotry is some new phenomenon, it has existed as long as people have. No matter how enlightened and civilized we pretend to be, people stick with their own kind.
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Re: Why France is failing its Muslims
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2015, 07:56:30 AM »
I don't really care, like stated previously, if these countries are so racist then don't go there. You guys act like racism and bigotry is some new phenomenon, it has existed as long as people have. No matter how enlightened and civilized we pretend to be, people stick with their own kind.

Its embedded in who we are as a species. From time immemorial, people have created in-groups and out-groups. For our ancestors, it was a way to survive; there was evolutionary benefit to knowing who was in your tribe or clan and who was not. To a great extent, we are hardwired to be biased, to form in-groups and out-groups. It's what we have been doing from the beginning of time, especially when we started to live in small (tribe) and large (clan) groups. However, we are also not slaves to our evolutionary leanings, either.
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Re: Why France is failing its Muslims
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2015, 08:04:06 AM »

drkaje

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Re: Why France is failing its Muslims
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2015, 08:14:44 AM »
Its embedded in who we are as a species. From time immemorial, people have created in-groups and out-groups. For our ancestors, it was a way to survive; there was evolutionary benefit to knowing who was in your tribe or clan and who was not. To a great extent, we are hardwired to be biased, to form in-groups and out-groups. It's what we have been doing from the beginning of time, especially when we started to live in small (tribe) and large (clan) groups. However, we are also not slaves to our evolutionary leanings, either.

Being able to recognize people from other tribes had an evolutionary benefit.