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Getbig Main Boards => Gossip & Opinions => Topic started by: cephissus on February 23, 2017, 10:58:05 PM

Title: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: cephissus on February 23, 2017, 10:58:05 PM
Anyone else notice a correlation?  Seems like all the instagram-level girls I see at the gym have at least a few tats here and there, if not a full sleeve, etc.
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: Mitch on February 23, 2017, 11:01:03 PM
yes. But it's not gym related. Every single random girl now has (at least) a tat.  :-\
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: muscleman-2017 on February 23, 2017, 11:04:14 PM
Because they are dim lightbulbs.
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: Costanza on February 23, 2017, 11:07:12 PM
youd still lick their asses tho yeh?
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: Lorenzo Frittata on February 23, 2017, 11:11:04 PM
Lesbianism.
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: muscleman-2017 on February 23, 2017, 11:13:32 PM
youd still lick their asses tho yeh?

of course!!!
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: Weedlejuice on February 24, 2017, 12:09:17 AM
Showing their individuality by all looking the same
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: Yanin on February 24, 2017, 12:33:53 AM
It's just their insecurities reflecting. If I workout I'll feel good about myself, I'm fit now I still don't feel happy, gets tattoo to cover herself... what's the name of the pornstar that dated Travis porter? On stern she said she got tattoos to cover herself or make herself less attractive...
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: Powerlift66 on February 24, 2017, 01:03:41 AM
It's just their insecurities reflecting.

Sort of like bodybuilding...
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: Henda on February 24, 2017, 02:30:30 AM
The odd few have them because they geniunley like tattoos, the rest get them as it's the latest in thing
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: Spike on February 24, 2017, 02:31:21 AM
Sort of like bodybuilding...


Only when you have to tell everyone which supps you buy and you don't compete

Then your just there to look at dudes ,,,
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: wes on February 24, 2017, 02:55:44 AM
Attention Whores Of Peace
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: Grape Ape on February 24, 2017, 05:30:24 AM
Anyone else notice a correlation?  Seems like all the instagram-level girls I see at the gym have at least a few tats here and there, if not a full sleeve, etc.

Had this same discussion, but centered around most of the girls you see in galleries like those at TheChive.

I guess both are forms of expression that would appeal to extroverts?
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: 8 INCH not biceps on February 24, 2017, 05:34:45 AM
of course!!!

How about licking a mans butthole after all a ass is just an ass.
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: dj181 on February 24, 2017, 05:37:39 AM
Had this same discussion, but centered around most of the girls you see in galleries like those at TheChive.

I guess both are forms of expression that would appeal to extroverts?

do you have any tats stud?
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: dj181 on February 24, 2017, 05:54:15 AM
^^^ way to build up her self esteem bro  :D
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: Twaddle on February 24, 2017, 06:06:53 AM
^^^ way to build up her self esteem bro  :D

Just calling a spade a spade.  I've got no time for generation nothingness.   :D
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: local hero on February 24, 2017, 06:07:43 AM
^^^ way to build up her self esteem bro  :D


Degrade then groom, be careful of get big predators at all times
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: Deadpool on February 24, 2017, 06:19:43 AM
 :)
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: Skeeter on February 24, 2017, 06:21:42 AM
This thread is missing something....

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/3c/b0/bc/3cb0bc91b4f431e5782c562ac4e3d718.jpg)
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: DroppingPlates on February 24, 2017, 06:37:01 AM
It's a damn shame that many women have a mutual love for weights and ink  :-\
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: Tapeworm on February 24, 2017, 06:38:42 AM
Because no one is fucking them hard enough.
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: tres_taco_combo on February 24, 2017, 09:08:44 AM
pics of hot fit inked up hoes please
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: milone79 on February 24, 2017, 09:09:27 AM
It's just their insecurities reflecting. If I workout I'll feel good about myself, I'm fit now I still don't feel happy, gets tattoo to cover herself... what's the name of the pornstar that dated Travis porter? On stern she said she got tattoos to cover herself or make herself less attractive...

THIS 90% OF "FIT GIRLS" ARE NOTHING MORE THAN INSECURE, ATTENTION SEEKING WHORES WHO REALLY HATE THEMSELVES...
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: Nether Animal on February 24, 2017, 09:12:46 AM
Cookie cutter.
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: Hulkotron on February 24, 2017, 05:10:41 PM
Anyone else notice a correlation?  Seems like all the instagram-level girls I see at the gym have at least a few tats here and there, if not a full sleeve, etc.

They are mentally ill.
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: Jamaal on February 24, 2017, 05:12:56 PM
Latest fad that hasn't gone out of style yet.

Makes one wonder what the parameters are on a "fad"
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: Pray_4_War on February 24, 2017, 05:13:01 PM
Cookie cutter.

They are mentally ill.

...and I want to fuck them all.
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: Marty Champions on February 24, 2017, 06:43:37 PM
cookie cutter

liberal evolution
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: Fortress on February 25, 2017, 06:19:55 AM
It's out of hand.

There's this young broad (say, around 22?) at my gym who has silky, beautiful, milk-white skin, she's seriously fit ... and she has ruined it all with ridiculous tats all over herself, including all down the fronts and sides of her legs.
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: DroppingPlates on February 25, 2017, 06:25:22 AM
It's out of hand.

There's this young broad (say, around 22?) at my gym who has silky, beautiful, milk-white skin, she's seriously fit ... and she has ruined it all with ridiculous tats all over herself, including all down the fronts and sides of her legs.

The (mental) problem is that they believe that the opposite is true :-\
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: Nether Animal on February 25, 2017, 06:27:54 AM
The (mental) problem is that they believe that the opposite is true :-\

When those with a brain are in the clear minority, you begin to realize that you come off as paranoid and eccentric when you call generation nothingness out on their bullshit. I've caught myself doing it more than once, most recently in the gym earlier this week, trying to explain to an older gentlemen why people come to the gym only to sit on their phone.
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: Mr Anabolic on February 25, 2017, 06:41:23 AM
It's out of hand.

There's this young broad (say, around 22?) at my gym who has silky, beautiful, milk-white skin, she's seriously fit ... and she has ruined it all with ridiculous tats all over herself, including all down the fronts and sides of her legs.

I see the same things on a weekly basis.  It's a self-loathing fad.  I believe tattooing has reached it's peak.  Very soon there will be less people wanting tats and more people wanting them removed. 

The most lucrative professions will soon be:  1) Tattoo removal and 2) Gay divorce lawyers.
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: DroppingPlates on February 25, 2017, 07:01:26 AM
When those with a brain are in the clear minority, you begin to realize that you come off as paranoid and eccentric when you call generation nothingness out on their bullshit. I've caught myself doing it more than once, most recently in the gym earlier this week, trying to explain to an older gentlemen why people come to the gym only to sit on their phone.

I hear you and that's one of the reasons why I don't socialize with most gym members. One of the saddest things I saw a few weeks ago was a guy leg pressing 2 plates while texting. You see, the rise of technology is frustrating the progress of millions of gym rats world wide...
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: Mr Anabolic on February 25, 2017, 07:20:30 AM
I hear you and that's one of the reasons why I don't socialize with most gym members. One of the saddest things I saw a few weeks ago was a guy leg pressing 2 plates while texting. You see, the rise of technology is frustrating the progress of millions of gym rats world wide...

I witnessed the same thing in my gym a few weeks ago.  The cell phone snowflakes have taken over most gyms.  If I owned a gym, cell phones would be banned from workout areas.
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: SF1900 on February 25, 2017, 07:25:51 AM
I witnessed the same thing in my gym a few weeks ago.  The cell phone snowflakes have taken over most gyms.  If I owned a gym, cell phones would be banned from workout areas.

Then you'd be out of business.  :-\ :-\
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: DroppingPlates on February 25, 2017, 07:31:55 AM
I witnessed the same thing in my gym a few weeks ago.  The cell phone snowflakes have taken over most gyms.  If I owned a gym, cell phones would be banned from workout areas.

This would only be feasible in a private gym, since most gym facilities already aren't that profitable, esp those with a focus on the 'hard core' scene..
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: Tapeworm on February 25, 2017, 07:45:18 AM
All the same once the skin is off.
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: illuminati on February 25, 2017, 08:26:13 AM
Mental illness
Self loathing
Attention whoring

That's what wrong with them.
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: Jamaal on February 25, 2017, 09:05:05 AM
I hear you and that's one of the reasons why I don't socialize with most gym members. One of the saddest things I saw a few weeks ago was a guy leg pressing 2 plates while texting. You see, the rise of technology is frustrating the progress of millions of gym rats world wide...

He probably was Instagram live story mode for it.

Or giving live updates.

Whatever happened to the mind muscle connection?
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: Earl1972 on February 25, 2017, 11:08:22 AM
the tattoo "fad" is at least 15 years old at this point

i don't think it's going anywhere, many young people are still getting them, even middle aged people that seemed to resist it for years are getting their first tattoo

i went to dewey beach delaware last year, it was strange hardly anybody had a tattoo, every other beach i go to most people have at least 1

E
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: SilverSpoon on February 26, 2017, 10:17:45 AM
I know this stunning girl that keeps getting more ink.

She seriously was model material.  She has stupid quotes on her arms now.  Looks like crap.
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: Julio Ceasar on February 26, 2017, 10:40:47 AM
I hate tattoos! It some trashy shit to do...they all look like trash. No one with education and decent job have tattoos...is it some sort of rocknroll lifestyle, sex drugs and shitty physique or what...dosent get it.
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: DroppingPlates on February 26, 2017, 10:58:58 AM
I hate tattoos! It some trashy shit to do...they all look like trash. No one with education and decent job have tattoos...is it some sort of rocknroll lifestyle, sex drugs and shitty physique or what...dosent get it.

That's not true, these days you will find mentally ill people on all walks of life...
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: cephissus on February 26, 2017, 01:57:39 PM
I just seem to notice that every head-turning, super fit girl I see in the gym has ink all over her body.

I can't remember the last time I thought "damn that girls in great shape" without seeing a tattoo on her.  I can't remember it being like this five or even ten years ago.
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: ProudVirgin69 on February 26, 2017, 02:03:29 PM
Some ink looks decent when it's fresh but it all looks like crap after 5-10 years of sun exposure
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: johnnynoname on February 26, 2017, 02:33:41 PM
I've noticed something really weird about this forum


people (well, not so much "people"--more like Alex and Josh) have admitted to alot of audacious shit on here yet for some reason we all get high and mighty when it comes to tattoos


what is that yo?
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: wes on February 26, 2017, 02:38:43 PM
I just got 2 new tats recently "Dying Breed" on my right hand, and a pic of "The Phoenix" om my right forearm.

I`m personally not a fan of sleeves and shit, but to each his own.
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: johnnynoname on February 26, 2017, 02:39:44 PM
corvette or mustang?
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: Fortress on February 26, 2017, 06:30:02 PM
When I see tats, I immediately think two things: desperation and them being a cry for help.
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: gym**rat on February 27, 2017, 06:39:07 AM
When I see tats, I immediately think two things: desperation and them being a cry for help.

Now me, I think damn that is hot and I want to fuck her.
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: SuperTed on February 27, 2017, 06:43:58 AM
Some ink looks decent when it's fresh but it all looks like crap after 5-10 years of sun exposure

This.

They can look good at first but start looking shitty after a few years.
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: Rascal full on February 27, 2017, 06:59:37 AM
I see the same things on a weekly basis.  It's a self-loathing fad.  I believe tattooing has reached it's peak.  Very soon there will be less people wanting tats and more people wanting them removed. 

The most lucrative professions will soon be:  1) Tattoo removal and 2) Gay divorce lawyers.

Haha so true
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: Pet shop boys on February 27, 2017, 07:10:19 AM
Anyone else notice a correlation?  Seems like all the instagram-level girls I see at the gym have at least a few tats here and there, if not a full sleeve, etc.

Whats even more depressing is The fat, ugly on welfare women, they have same amount of ink if not more ... these skanks announce on social media they'll have a new tattoo next weekend"   like that's some kind of a big deal

having  tatts its perceived as some kind of achievement it seems .....





WoooSHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: El Diablo Blanco on February 27, 2017, 07:21:07 AM
I just got 2 new tats recently "Dying Breed" on my right hand, and a pic of "The Phoenix" om my right forearm.

I`m personally not a fan of sleeves and shit, but to each his own.

Kind of a faggy thing to get on your arm isn't it?

(http://media3.s-nbcnews.com/i/streams/2013/October/131031/8C9549517-tdy-131031-river-gone-tease.jpg)
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: residue on February 27, 2017, 07:22:57 AM
This.

They can look good at first but start looking shitty after a few years.

that's literally everything
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: wes on February 27, 2017, 07:30:47 AM
Kind of a faggy thing to get on your arm isn't it?

(http://media3.s-nbcnews.com/i/streams/2013/October/131031/8C9549517-tdy-131031-river-gone-tease.jpg)
I think "River" would have been more homoesuque!!  LOL  :D
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: El Diablo Blanco on February 27, 2017, 08:22:33 AM
Tattoos serve to cover up wounds and needle marks both litterally and figuratively
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: residue on February 27, 2017, 08:39:56 AM
THIS 90% OF "FIT GIRLS" ARE NOTHING MORE THAN INSECURE, ATTENTION SEEKING WHORES WHO REALLY HATE THEMSELVES...

come on 90% of bodybuilders are socially inept nerds that didnt get laid in hs and thinks somehow muscles are going ot make them interesting
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: cart@@n on February 27, 2017, 02:07:28 PM
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: johnnynoname on February 27, 2017, 02:15:20 PM
a bit of "storytime"


last girl I actually had feelings for was a fitness girl with tattoos


....however, I used her as a "emotional surrogate".....we never had sex and I never tried to steal her from her fuckhead boyfriend


the end
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: JimmyJam1974 on February 27, 2017, 02:17:00 PM
a bit of "storytime"


last girl I actually had feelings for was a fitness girl with tattoos


....however, I used her as a "emotional surrogate".....we never had sex and I never tried to steal her from her fuckhead boyfriend


the end
I don't believe I would have told that, brother
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: johnnynoname on February 27, 2017, 02:22:36 PM
I'll never go see a therapist

I can't afford it, I don't need one and plus being of Italian descent my pride won't allow me to go to one

that prefaced- I will use this forum to further spill my guts about that kinda recent episode of my life

"emotional surrogate"....I don't know if that is a actual term....however, it is a term that I came up with on my own

I used her to feel emotions that men do feel for women that....emotions that are outside of the primal shit that comes with animalistic fucking

she wanted a husband....I never asked her to leave her boyfriend because even though I was "using her" emotionally I knew that there was a line.....and that "line" was not to ruin her current relationship because I love being single and I didn't want to ruin her life by asking her to leave Assholeface (who she has been dating for a couple of years) knowing full well that I would never marry her

I don't want to marry anyone

fact is---I already have a mother and I don't need a wife

plus, I don't believe in marriage


I'm blithering at the moment
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: Simple Simon on February 27, 2017, 02:29:24 PM
I'll never go see a therapist

I can't afford it, I don't need one and plus being of Italian descent my pride won't allow me to go to one

that prefaced- I will use this forum to further spill my guts about that kinda recent episode of my life

"emotional surrogate"....I don't know if that is a actual term....however, it is a term that I came up with on my own

I used her to feel emotions that men do feel for women that....emotions that are outside of the primal shit that comes with animalistic fucking

she wanted a husband....I never asked her to leave her boyfriend because even though I was "using her" emotionally I knew that there was a line.....and that "line" was not to ruin her current relationship because I love being single and I didn't want to ruin her life by asking her to leave Assholeface (who she has been dating for a couple of years) knowing full well that I would never marry her

I don't want to marry anyone

fact is---I already have a mother and I don't need a wife

plus, I don't believe in marriage


I'm blithering at the moment
if ever a post needed a "no homo" it was that one.
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: johnnynoname on February 27, 2017, 02:30:13 PM
if ever a post needed a "no homo" it was that one.


how dare you make a mockery of this






Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: johnnynoname on February 27, 2017, 02:30:53 PM
i'm such a fucking faggot
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: Simple Simon on February 27, 2017, 02:30:56 PM

how dare you make a mockery of this







;D
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: kreator on February 28, 2017, 05:36:11 AM
I'll never go see a therapist

I can't afford it, I don't need one and plus being of Italian descent my pride won't allow me to go to one

that prefaced- I will use this forum to further spill my guts about that kinda recent episode of my life

"emotional surrogate"....I don't know if that is a actual term....however, it is a term that I came up with on my own

I used her to feel emotions that men do feel for women that....emotions that are outside of the primal shit that comes with animalistic fucking

she wanted a husband....I never asked her to leave her boyfriend because even though I was "using her" emotionally I knew that there was a line.....and that "line" was not to ruin her current relationship because I love being single and I didn't want to ruin her life by asking her to leave Assholeface (who she has been dating for a couple of years) knowing full well that I would never marry her

I don't want to marry anyone

fact is---I already have a mother and I don't need a wife

plus, I don't believe in marriage


I'm blithering at the moment

i admire your honesty, would love to share a milkshake with you ( no homo )
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: Twaddle on February 28, 2017, 05:41:32 AM
i admire your honesty, would love to share a milkshake with you ( no homo )

(http://cdn-static.denofgeek.com/sites/denofgeek/files/styles/article_width/public/trainspotting.jpg?itok=DuR5ETpC)
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: milone79 on February 28, 2017, 06:03:44 AM
When I see tats, I immediately think two things: desperation and them being a cry for help.

this^^^ having dates a few of these tatted up "fit chicks"  I can confirm both are very true!!!
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: Master Blaster on February 28, 2017, 06:59:00 AM
Chicks without tattoos are rare and highly desirable.
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: DroppingPlates on February 28, 2017, 07:04:26 AM
Chicks without tattoos are rare and highly desirable.

Twisted chicks who want tatts should realize this..
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: Nether Animal on February 28, 2017, 07:08:55 AM
Twisted chicks who want tatts should realize this..

Most arent really "twisted", its all just a front
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: DroppingPlates on February 28, 2017, 07:23:42 AM
Most arent really "twisted", its all just a front

With 'twisted' I mean unstable, not really knowing who they are and what they want in life.
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: spiro on February 28, 2017, 07:48:16 AM
i'm such a fucking faggot

You sure are man. You think too much.
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: residue on February 28, 2017, 08:01:09 AM
With 'twisted' I mean unstable, not really knowing who they are and what they want in life.

so 'twisted' meaning young?
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: residue on February 28, 2017, 08:01:43 AM
Chicks without tattoos are rare and highly desirable.

where? in the flyover states?
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: tres_taco_combo on February 28, 2017, 08:47:28 AM
i admire your honesty, would love to share a milkshake with you ( no homo )


hhaha
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: mazrim on February 28, 2017, 09:10:03 AM
Don't care one way or the other unless it's a tribal/Chinese symbol/overused phrase then the line is crossed.
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: DroppingPlates on February 28, 2017, 10:13:32 AM
so 'twisted' meaning young?

Not per se... often, people need to reach the age of 40 or above before self knowledge is kicking in...
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: Jamaal on February 28, 2017, 10:16:10 AM
Don't care one way or the other unless it's a tribal/Chinese symbol/overused phrase then the line is crossed.

Basically any tattoo from the 90s
Title: Re: Why are all the fit gym girls inked up?
Post by: cephissus on February 28, 2017, 01:39:04 PM
I'll never go see a therapist

I can't afford it, I don't need one and plus being of Italian descent my pride won't allow me to go to one

that prefaced- I will use this forum to further spill my guts about that kinda recent episode of my life

"emotional surrogate"....I don't know if that is a actual term....however, it is a term that I came up with on my own

I used her to feel emotions that men do feel for women that....emotions that are outside of the primal shit that comes with animalistic fucking

she wanted a husband....I never asked her to leave her boyfriend because even though I was "using her" emotionally I knew that there was a line.....and that "line" was not to ruin her current relationship because I love being single and I didn't want to ruin her life by asking her to leave Assholeface (who she has been dating for a couple of years) knowing full well that I would never marry her

I don't want to marry anyone

fact is---I already have a mother and I don't need a wife

plus, I don't believe in marriage


I'm blithering at the moment

I feel the same way about therapists... "using" one is one of the worst disgraces I can imagine.