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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Religious Debates & Threads => Topic started by: Butterbean on June 26, 2006, 06:31:13 PM
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Some beliefs
Although Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs come from the Protestant and Adventist tradition, they do hold many beliefs that set themselves apart. The following are some key beliefs that make them different:
Jehovah God: Their God is the God of the Old Testament - all-powerful, all-knowing, and everlasting. They refer to Him as Jehovah - a true, personal, and exclusive name that all should use. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit: Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe in the Trinity. As mentioned above, God is the all-knowing, all-powerful Creator. The relationship between him and Jesus is like that of father and son: Jesus is the first creation of God. He is fully human. The Holy Spirit is an active force which intervenes for God on earth. All the above mentioned are separate entities.
Satan, the Devil: Satan is seen as an enemy of God. He is misleading and afflicts pain and sorrow. Through spiritism, nationalism, and temptation, Satan leads people astray. The way to resist the devil is by learning about Jehovah.
Man: Jehovah's Witnesses accept the Genesis account of the fall of man. Man is blemished with sin because of the disobedience Adam and Eve showed towards God. Every man is born with sin (save for Jesus, who was born to a virgin). They also believe that man's soul is mortal - i.e. that when a person dies, his spirit (or soul) dies as well. In addition, some will experience eternal life when they are resurrected, in the flesh and soul, simultaneously.
Salvation: In contrast to some Christian traditions that believe salvation is achieved by accepting Christ as Lord ("once saved, always saved"), Jehovah's Witnesses believe it is possible to fall from grace. "The Bible sets forth conditions that must be met if we are to be saved from the effects of inherited sin" (Watchtower, 09/15/89). Accepting Jesus as Lord is essential, but failure to exercise fidelity to God's requirements can result in the loss of the gift of salvation. "elievers...will be saved to eternal life only if they continue to adhere to all of God's requirements...Those losing faith in Jesus also lose everlasting life." (Watchtower, 09/15/89. Thanks to James Long, Webmaster of Jehovah's Witnesses United for assistance in correcting an earlier statement regarding salvation).
Heaven: Heaven is where Jesus Christ and the other "True Christians" will live. There they will rule over the kingdom which will be on earth. Seats are limited: only 144,000 will gain access to heaven.
Hell: Hell is non-existent for the Jehovah's Witnesses. There is not a fiery-torment, claims Russell, because it runs contradictory to God's loving nature. Those who don't qualify for heaven or the kingdom that will be established on earth will simply dissappear, as if they had never existed.
The Great Crowd: These are the subjects of the kingdom ruled by Jesus and the 144,000. They will live forever on the new earth if they have chosen to obey God.
Kingdom of God: This unique government rules over the earth from heaven. Jehovah fulfilled His promise to Jesus that he would rule in 1914. When Jesus became king, Satan and his evil angels were kicked out of heaven and sent to inhabit the earth. This is how the Jehovah's Witnesses explain the wars, crime increases, and other "bad" things which are happening in our world today. All these things indicate that Jesus has established his reign and that we are in the last days. Within a certain time frame, some faithful followers, 144,000 to be exact, will join Jesus and assist him in his reign. After Jesus judges his people (some receiving everlasting life others non-existence), Jehovah will rule again.
Holidays: Jehovah's Witnesses do not celebrate Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter, birthdays, or any other holidays (save one). They believe these celebrations grew out of ancient false religions. Also, because early Christians did not celebrate these occasions, they believe they should not either. The one day they do celebrate, however, is the Memorial of Christ's Death during Passover.
(Beckford, p. 4-6, 113; Botting, p. 5-32, 187-194; Kephart and Zellner, p.291-98; Stark and Iannaccone, p.135-6; Watchtower: Official Web Site of Jehovah's Witnesses; Religious Tolerance Page)
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who here is a jehova witness? I've worked at a job with a jehovah witness, and even though I thought he was a whacko, there were still somethings in their belief system parallel to Islamic teachings.
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I was in Basic Training with a guy who was studying to be a Witness. He had a manual that basically showed him how to debate people on certain Biblical subjects.
They used to come to my house all the time growing up. One day I let two ladies in the house, thinking I was going to debate them. I was about 12 or 13. They kicked my butt. I'll never forget it. :)
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They used to come to my house all the time growing up. One day I let two ladies in the house, thinking I was going to debate them. I was about 12 or 13. They kicked my butt. I'll never forget it. :)
My husband had a good "debate" w/a couple of JWs (but he was in his 30's :) ). They certainly know where verses are located in the bible but in our opinion seemed to take stuff out of context.
who here is a jehova witness?
Hoping to find one on here to help us understand their beliefs.....
For instance,
since they believe that people can lose their salvation if "they do not adhere to all of God's requirements," -- which is impossible for everyone -- how are people supposed to "get their salvation back?" Through their own works and deeds that the bible describes as filthy rags in regard to obtaining one's own salvation? Or would Jesus have to die again? ???
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I only had a discussion with Jehovah's Witnesses once. Two young (maybe 18) well-dressed guys rang my doorbell and when I answered gave me back my keys I had forgotten in the lock when I came back from doing the groceries. :-[ So, I felt compelled to return the good deed and listened to them for a bit. I remember something about them not believing Christ to be the only saviour (they believe him to be only one of many created by Jehovah), and that only through performing constant good works could one be saved, but that even then salvation wasn't assured.
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Two young (maybe 18) well-dressed guys rang my doorbell and when I answered gave me back my keys I had forgotten in the lock when I came back from doing the groceries. :-[
I apologize for asking an off-topic question, but as I read this, I wondered about how Freud would interpret your actions . . .
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He'd probably find some kind of correlation/tie-in with hair color and go "aha!"
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He'd probably find some kind of correlation/tie-in with hair color and go "aha!"
Come on, this is Freud we're talking about . . . keys, locks, doors. he'd have a field day. he also believed that no action is ever just randomly done.
actually I'm surprised he never wrote about a scenario like this one. ;D
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hmmm... maybe I was looking for spiritual guidance and subconsciously gave out the "key" to open the "door" to my "soul". Also coming home from the grocery store I drove over a body of "water" signalling my "rebirth" and...I don't know Al-Gebra, help me out here. What did it all mean... ???
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I found this article from the Christian Research Institute. Did you know that the official name of this cult is the "Watchtower Bible and Tract Society?"
Jehovah's Witnesses Selected Bibliography
According to the theological definition of the term, a cult is a group that denies essential biblical doctrine while claiming to be Christian or in harmony with true Christianity. While the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, whose followers are known as Jehovah’s Witnesses, claims to be the true representative of Jesus Christ, it denies historic and essential Christian doctrines; therefore, evangelical Christians do, indeed, consider it a cult of Christianity. Jehovah’s Witnesses deny the doctrine of the Trinity, the omniscience and omnipresence of God, the personality of the Holy Spirit, the deity of Jesus Christ, the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ, the physical Second Coming of Jesus Christ to the earth, the consciousness of man after death, eternal punishment for unbelievers, justification by grace through faith alone, and they distort the doctrine of the bodily resurrection of believers and unbelievers. In addition, this cult imposes social restrictions on its followers. For instance, Jehovah’s Witnesses are forbidden from receiving and donating blood, saluting the flag, military service, and celebrating birthdays and Christian holidays. The Watchtower severely reprimands and even “disfellowships” members who question the leadership or otherwise think for themselves.
The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is a cult that originated in the 19th century. The group began as a small Bible study led by Charles Taze Russell in 1872. Zion’s Watch Tower Tract Society was started in 1884 by Russell and his followers. Several books and other resources by Russell were published by this group, and the teachings in them, along with those of Russell’s successor J. F. Rutherford, serve as the foundation for the cult’s beliefs. In 1931, the group adopted the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society as its name to distinguish itself from splinter groups. Jehovah’s Witnesses claim they do not follow any man, including Russell; however, their beliefs are founded on Russell’s false interpretations and teachings. Today, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society publishes The Watchtower and Awake! magazines and numerous other publications that promote their beliefs.
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And of course, you're quoting from an unbiased, totally objective source, right? More than half of what you quoted also applies to the Jewish faith.
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To me, it just confirms that JW's, just like other cults (Mormonism), seem to pull a little bit of truth here and there, and then seem some how put some kind of spin on it to get a following.
I'll ask my mom's neice to send me some JW information that's "unbiased".
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I found this article from the Christian Research Institute. Did you know that the official name of this cult is the "Watchtower Bible and Tract Society?"
Jehovah's Witnesses Selected Bibliography
According to the theological definition of the term, a cult is a group that denies essential biblical doctrine while claiming to be Christian or in harmony with true Christianity. While the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, whose followers are known as Jehovah’s Witnesses, claims to be the true representative of Jesus Christ, it denies historic and essential Christian doctrines; therefore, evangelical Christians do, indeed, consider it a cult of Christianity. Jehovah’s Witnesses deny the doctrine of the Trinity, the omniscience and omnipresence of God, the personality of the Holy Spirit, the deity of Jesus Christ, the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ, the physical Second Coming of Jesus Christ to the earth, the consciousness of man after death, eternal punishment for unbelievers, justification by grace through faith alone, and they distort the doctrine of the bodily resurrection of believers and unbelievers. In addition, this cult imposes social restrictions on its followers. For instance, Jehovah’s Witnesses are forbidden from receiving and donating blood, saluting the flag, military service, and celebrating birthdays and Christian holidays. The Watchtower severely reprimands and even “disfellowships” members who question the leadership or otherwise think for themselves.
I doubt you'd find many mainstream people willing to say that your average evangelical christian is unbiased. Also most of what is quoted after that can also be applied to the the Jewish faith and I'm wondering if you feel comfortable calling that particular religion a "cult" as well.
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I don't think they're a cult.
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I don't think they're a cult.
While I find it annoying to have people coming to my door, I don't find JWs to be a cult group either. I keep feeling like comparing their belief system to the Jewish faith because, like the Jews, they seem to adhere to the teachings of the old testament, and as well, seem to have this good works/mitzvot system in place, among other things. I find it fascinating to learn about this things...
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While I find it annoying to have people coming to my door, I don't find JWs to be a cult group either. I keep feeling like comparing their belief system to the Jewish faith because, like the Jews, they seem to adhere to the teachings of the old testament, and as well, seem to have this good works/mitzvot system in place, among other things. I find it fascinating to learn about this things...
are you jewish?
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No, lutheran protestant actually... Grew up with many Jewish friends though, and then there was the ex, so I picked up a lot.
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Are you? Did I offend?
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hmm i feel a bit lost here sometimes. What is different about lutheran protestants from say catholics? I know ts off topic.
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I'm supposed to be doing homework :P but I'll take a break. Google Martin Luther and you'll find the story. It's way too long to go into but Protesant stands for "to be a witness". In the early 1500's Martin Luther called for a reform of the Catholic church, there was trouble and intolerance, blah blah blah, and the Protestant movment was born. Lutheran Protestants believe in the infinite grace of God as their salvation. That's the mini Cliff's notes version...
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Well i knew some of the martin Luther aspect of it. Just didn't know how some of the dogma was different.
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Are you? Did I offend?
No, i'm not Jewish . . . and couldn't imagine why your post would be offensive, if I was. Besides, i've seem a lot of anti-semitic crap on here. I'm just pretty run-of-the-mill protestant.
what's the homework? i thought you were a working woman (i know working people have homework too, but it doesn't seem like most people on this board have any :P
Migs, about the luther stuff. he was a Catholic monk who was very offended when the catholics invented purgatory, so he came up w 95 theses against Catholic doctrine and went and nailed them to the door of the catholic church in wittenberg, germany, thus setting off the Reformation and Protestantism ("I protest . . . )
luther was an anti-semite . . . and some germans like to consider him their first.it was the recent invention of the printing press and the fact that luther's anti-semitic thoughts were printed that led to this claim.
Now, all this info can easily be googled, but I'm doing a special today. ;D Christopher Marlowe--great English playwright and contemporary of early shakespeare--was a Catholic at a time when England was adamantly Protestant . . . so he had his Dr. Faustus--the man who sold his soul to the devil--hail from Wittenberg, thus revealing what he thought about the Protestant reformation :P
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Wow! Well, that was a pretty good quick overview with a good tie-in to Marlowe. :)
Anyway, I guess with not many Jehovah Witnesses as Getbig members, this thread was bound to take a few twists in the road, lol.
And yes, even working women are constantly striving to better themselves. It's either that or the hairshirt! :P
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I doubt you'd find many mainstream people willing to say that your average evangelical christian is unbiased. Also most of what is quoted after that can also be applied to the the Jewish faith and I'm wondering if you feel comfortable calling that particular religion a "cult" as well.
Jehovah's Witness and Mormonism are seen by Christian theologists as cults of Christianity. Also, would you agree that there is bias in all facets of religion, whether you be Jewish, Christian, Muslim, or even atheist? Religion is about man, not about God.
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No, i'm not Jewish . . . and couldn't imagine why your post would be offensive, if I was. Besides, i've seem a lot of anti-semitic crap on here. I'm just pretty run-of-the-mill protestant.
what's the homework? i thought you were a working woman (i know working people have homework too, but it doesn't seem like most people on this board have any :P
Migs, about the luther stuff. he was a Catholic monk who was very offended when the catholics invented purgatory, so he came up w 95 theses against Catholic doctrine and went and nailed them to the door of the catholic church in wittenberg, germany, thus setting off the Reformation and Protestantism ("I protest . . . )
luther was an anti-semite . . . and some germans like to consider him their first.it was the recent invention of the printing press and the fact that luther's anti-semitic thoughts were printed that led to this claim.
Now, all this info can easily be googled, but I'm doing a special today. ;D Christopher Marlowe--great English playwright and contemporary of early shakespeare--was a Catholic at a time when England was adamantly Protestant . . . so he had his Dr. Faustus--the man who sold his soul to the devil--hail from Wittenberg, thus revealing what he thought about the Protestant reformation :P
Thanks Al, i knew of Martin Luther and what hew had done, just didn't know the main differences between Catholicism and Lutheranism and it Lutherist's doctrine has changed much.
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Jehovah's Witness and Mormonism are seen by Christian theologists as cults of Christianity. Also, would you agree that there is bias in all facets of religion, whether you be Jewish, Christian, Muslim, or even atheist? Religion is about man, not about God.
When you say Christian theologists, who exactly are you including in that group? Also, when you say "cult," are you using the meaning of the word as in splinter group or faction?
Also, yes, I believe people are biased towards people of other faiths because of many reasons, among which are fear or simple ignorance, which is why I think it's important to consider information from sources that are objective.
(p.s. btw, I'm not trying to be a wise crack with these or my comments above, I'm interested in the topic.)
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When you say Christian theologists, who exactly are you including in that group? Also, when you say "cult," are you using the meaning of the word as in splinter group or faction?
I'm speaking of the C.S Lewis', Malcolm Muggeridge's, Ravi Zacharias', and other mindsets like G.K. Chesterton when I refer to the theologians. These are people that I believe have sought truth in understanding other factions. Yes, when I say cult, I mean it as religous sects.
Also, yes, I believe people are biased towards people of other faiths because of many reasons, among which are fear or simple ignorance, which is why I think it's important to consider information from sources that are objective.
(p.s. btw, I'm not trying to be a wise crack with these or my comments above, I'm interested in the topic.)
No worries. We're just asking questions and giving our opinions. Yes, you are right in the sense that it's imperative to consider the source of where we glean information. But you have to admit, in doing so, you'll be hard pressed to find any source of information regarding religion that is totally unbiased. At the end of the day, it all comes down to making the decision of whether you agree or disagree. You have to take a stand at some point on every issue in my opinion.
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OK! I posted a request on Gossip & Opinions for a JW to help us out down here. "dseiler" is someone who studied w/JW's for a year but in fact, did not join the JWs.
Seems to me he will have a lot of info from which we can all learn.
Hopefully he'll come down here soon and join us in this discussion.
Meanwhile, carry on :)
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Greets all, here to engage in some discussion.
I studied with JW for about a year, honestly because I fell hard for this girl in high school who turned out to be a devout worshipper. Funny thing is now she's gone down a different path. (I always thought her to be a more open minded.) Anyway, I followed mainly because they were very open about letting just about anyone in with a desire to learn. Everyone was very friendly, very family-oriented. The time they require you spend with your family (both biologically and spiritual families) makes for some excellent bonding time. It's about the only part of the whole JW experience I clicked with. I liked getting closer to God until I found out about the segregation, no blood transfusions, bible translations. These, I still believe to this day, are man-made. God does not wish us to segregate and seperate. Onto one of the biggies:
One of the fundamental problems I believe inherent in the Bible is the many translations. Go into any bookstore an you'll see 50 different versions from the King James to the New World Translation. JW's use the NWT exclusively, and they are famous for taking things out of context. From what I rememeber, the "Anointed" (see 144,000), or the governing body of JW's are the primary translators of this version so what they say goes. For example, take a look at John 1:1:
In the KJV (King James Version, generally followed by most catholic/christian denominations) John 1:1 says
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
In the NWT (New World Translation, JW Bible) it says:
"In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was a god."
Apparently adding the word A changes the whole philosophy of Jesus (the Word) being a part of God, God's Son, etc. This makes Jesus nothing more than a devout follower.
There are numerous changes like this in their translation of the Bible.
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Greets all, here to engage in some discussion.
I studied with JW for about a year, honestly because I fell hard for this girl in high school who turned out to be a devout worshipper. Funny thing is now she's gone down a different path. (I always thought her to be a more open minded.) Anyway, I followed mainly because they were very open about letting just about anyone in with a desire to learn. Everyone was very friendly, very family-oriented. The time they require you spend with your family (both biologically and spiritual families) makes for some excellent bonding time. It's about the only part of the whole JW experience I clicked with. I liked getting closer to God until I found out about the segregation, no blood transfusions, bible translations. These, I still believe to this day, are man-made. God does not wish us to segregate and seperate. Onto one of the biggies:
One of the fundamental problems I believe inherent in the Bible is the many translations. Go into any bookstore an you'll see 50 different versions from the King James to the New World Translation. JW's use the NWT exclusively, and they are famous for taking things out of context. From what I rememeber, the "Anointed" (see 144,000), or the governing body of JW's are the primary translators of this version so what they say goes. For example, take a look at John 1:1:
In the KJV (King James Version, generally followed by most catholic/christian denominations) John 1:1 says
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
In the NWT (New World Translation, JW Bible) it says:
"In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was a god."
Apparently adding the word A changes the whole philosophy of Jesus (the Word) being a part of God, God's Son, etc. This makes Jesus nothing more than a devout follower.
There are numerous changes like this in their translation of the Bible.
Thanks for coming down here to help us out dseiler. Very much appreciated! :)
Do you know when the JW version of the bible was first created? And how do they explain the fact that they made subtle changes to the original, thus (as you've shown) changing entire meanings of certain verses?
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I'm speaking of the C.S Lewis', Malcolm Muggeridge's, Ravi Zacharias', and other mindsets like G.K. Chesterton when I refer to the theologians. These are people that I believe have sought truth in understanding other factions. Yes, when I say cult, I mean it as religous sects.
No worries. We're just asking questions and giving our opinions. Yes, you are right in the sense that it's imperative to consider the source of where we glean information. But you have to admit, in doing so, you'll be hard pressed to find any source of information regarding religion that is totally unbiased. At the end of the day, it all comes down to making the decision of whether you agree or disagree. You have to take a stand at some point on every issue in my opinion.
I think I originally misunderstood your use of the word cult. That's why I double checked. And, fair enough, your selected representatives seem to embody the more tolerant and common sense approach to understanding different religious groups. I was thinking more in the vein that I'd like to hear from, say, the head of the Comparative Religious Studies program at Harvard.
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In the KJV (King James Version, generally followed by most catholic/christian denominations) John 1:1 says
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
In the NWT (New World Translation, JW Bible) it says:
"In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was a god."
Apparently adding the word A changes the whole philosophy of Jesus (the Word) being a part of God, God's Son, etc. This makes Jesus nothing more than a devout follower.
There are numerous changes like this in their translation of the Bible.
I remembered this as well, in fact, the above was what always stuck with me. Because the OT is the primary book of worship, and the belief system is similar to the Jewish one, i.e. the Messiah has not yet arrived, has some of the text been interpreted to fit that belief system?
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Thanks for coming down here to help us out dseiler. Very much appreciated! :)
Do you know when the JW version of the bible was first created? And how do they explain the fact that they made subtle changes to the original, thus (as you've shown) changing entire meanings of certain verses?
This is just the problem, who knows if/when there was an original.
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BTW, Wikipedia has an excellent entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witness
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Hey dseiler, do you have any information on the following?
since they believe that people can lose their salvation if "they do not adhere to all of God's requirements," -- which is impossible for everyone -- how are people supposed to "get their salvation back?" Through their own works and deeds that the bible describes as filthy rags in regard to obtaining one's own salvation? Or would Jesus have to die again? ???
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Well, I don't know where dseiler has been but today I was skating and saw several JW's walking in pairs around a neighborhood.
I stopped and talked w/a pair of them for a while and asked them about the salvation thing. They said they believe that to be saved you must accept Jesus as Savior (whom they believe is actually the archangle Michael) AND have to keep doing the "Lord's work" till you die and then MAYBE you get into heaven and maybe you don't.
I asked them how they felt about Eph 2:8,9 that states: "You are saved by grace through faith and NOT of works, so that no one can boast." .....The one older lady (who didn't seem to really know what she believed as she would state scriptures that maybe had something to do w/which we were talking and sometimes did not) gave some unrelated scripture as an answer but the younger lady said she hadn't been aware of that scripture before and would to look into it.
I also directed them to the beginning of Galatians Chapter 3 where it talks about "Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by BELIEVING what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning w/the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? etc..
....the younger lady said she'd look into that one too.
I gave her my email address and hopefully she'll email me and I can post her explanations and beliefs here.
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Oh yeah, and we touched a bit on the Trinity and them not believing that Jesus was God but was still able to live a perfect life thus being the perfect sacrifice and how that was possible if He wasn't God and they said it was because God empowered Jesus to live a sinless life.
Hopefully if she emails me we'll be able to get into that part more.
Oh and while they were trying to refute the Trinity they quoted a scripture that said "And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord (Jehova) shall be saved" and I pointed out that it didn't say "And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord.............and does a bunch of works..shall be saved."
("calls" of course being much more than yelling w/your mouth but w/your heart also)
They were very nice and the conversation was very interesting :)
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If I told someone that I was out walking w a bible in my hand when a hot (and sweaty? :P woman on rollerblades stopped me and talked my ear off about religion, no one would believe me . . . but now I have proof that it does happen. ;D
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If I told someone that I was out walking w a bible in my hand when a hot (and sweaty? :P woman on rollerblades stopped me and talked my ear off about religion, no one would believe me . . . but now I have proof that it does happen. ;D
;D
The first pair of gals I saw I first wondered if they were JWs or Avon Ladies. ;D
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Well, I don't know where dseiler has been but today I was skating and saw several JW's walking in pairs around a neighborhood.
I stopped and talked w/a pair of them for a while and asked them about the salvation thing. They said they believe that to be saved you must accept Jesus as Savior (whom they believe is actually the archangle Michael) AND have to keep doing the "Lord's work" till you die and then MAYBE you get into heaven and maybe you don't.
I asked them how they felt about Eph 2:8,9 that states: "You are saved by grace through faith and NOT of works, so that no one can boast." .....The one older lady (who didn't seem to really know what she believed as she would state scriptures that maybe had something to do w/which we were talking and sometimes did not) gave some unrelated scripture as an answer but the younger lady said she hadn't been aware of that scripture before and would to look into it.
I also directed them to the beginning of Galatians Chapter 3 where it talks about "Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by BELIEVING what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning w/the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? etc..
....the younger lady said she'd look into that one too.
I gave her my email address and hopefully she'll email me and I can post her explanations and beliefs here.
Stella, have you heard from the one JW lady yet?
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Stella, have you heard from the one JW lady yet?
No. :( And I'm bummed because I wanted to ask her about so much stuff...including their take on the 144,000.
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No. :( And I'm bummed because I wanted to ask her about so much stuff...including their take on the 144,000.
Yeah, that would have been very interesting. I hope she ends up contacting you. :)
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Yeah, that would have been very interesting. I hope she ends up contacting you. :)
Me too. :)
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STella, can we move on to another group?
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STella, can we move on to another group?
Of course Colossus! What should we do? :D
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I'm game for anything. There's so much out there that we need to learn about and where they originate.
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Have you done the Jewish faith? Sort of a hot topic.
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Man, Beach, you beat me to it. ;) I was thinking in light of what's going on in the Middle East, we could take a look at the Jewish faith.
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My mother is one (for the last 25yrs)...I was raised as one.
Here is the official site -
http://www.watchtower.org/
Use the search function.
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Guess which murder rapper was revealed to once be a jehovah witness while in school >:(
That is the one who has a long rap sheet and a criminal profile that identifies him as J Rule.
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My mother is one (for the last 25yrs)...I was raised as one.
Here is the official site -
http://www.watchtower.org/
Use the search function.
Are you still one? Why or why not?
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I want to know, if Jehova's Witnesses don't celebrate birthdays, why is that they will take a gift?
By the way, they have the shortest funerals ;). The dead don't care, they're dead.
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Are you still one? Why or why not?
No I am not. I don't agree with certain things like
1. Shunning disfellowshipped people for a mistake...especially if they are family.
2. Birthdays.
I can see why they don't celebrate several holidays based on my PERSONAL research but, nothing backs up the birthday one. I can't rejoice on the day my child entered the world? But I can celebrate the day I got married every year...wtf?
3. I no longer believe in the "No premarital sex".
I (and most JW kids) got married when I was 18 just to get out of my parents house and start life. They teach that you can not have any unsupervised contact with the other sex..period. Even if your 35 you have to date in a group setting or with a chaperone to prevent "immoral sexual tendencies". Guess a grown man can't make moral decisions that his faith encourages from him so they gotta give him a wingman to ensure compliance.
SOOOOO many got married young, so many got divorced years later when they realized they can now make their own decisions and that the one they choose was for personal and sexual freedom vs. life partner.
4. They "encourage" not going to college and concentrating on going into "full time ministry" or "Bethel" (Society HQ)
So what if God's Kingdom doesn't come in the next 10 yrs? How are you going to provide for yourself or a family? The end is near...it's been "very close" since the Early 1900's. I was pressured into that mindset and just ended up going to college in my 20's...putting me 5yrs behind in education for the average person of my age & financial ability.
5. I also don't believe that only they (and a select few) will be resurrected and / or will survive Armageddon. It is not our place to judge a man past or present off his deeds...only God can read the where ones heart is.
I do however based on MY research, believe them to be fairly accurate in some things. Like -
1.Jesus not dying on a cross.
When modern day scientist tried to hang a 160lb cadaver from a cross with nails that where created according to common Roman nails of that period, that the corpse fell from the cross being that the hand flesh couldn't sustain the weight.
If you research Roman Law, they would routinely "bound the hands together atop the prisoners head upon the stake" back in that time, to carry out judgement for crimes...the most common punishment being the "maiming" (breaking) of both legs. Even the bible says Christ was executed along with a thief and a murderer..why would they change it for him? Guess it's possible...but unlikely.
In fact the cross as a worship symbol has been traced back to when some of the early Christians married into neighboring tribes one being a tribe that used to tattoo a lower case "t" to their forehead (like they do with ashes at Mass?) in honor of their "Deity" Tammuz. Who is said to curse wicked ones by fire (sound familiar) ie..burning their crops.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tammuz
Not saying this is fact on where Catholicism has originated it's just too coincidental for me...not to mention proved physically impossible. :-\
2. I don't believe in hell anyways. So that doctrine was easy to accept. I refuse that a God that is so "Loving" as our "Father" would ever let such a place exist.
Sure, maybe he'd punish us as we do our kids, but to subject them to everylasting torment ???? No parent would do that so in turn, that is NOT the God I believe in.
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I remember seeing some of the pamphlets at relatives houses. I laughed at one that said that if you act out at your parents you will do drugs, then have sex, the become a f-up.
And I always wonder, "Why is is that white people always get to go heaven" Or,"So there were no Asian or African people in the Biblical days?" I guess they didn't exist....or were in hell for being immoral.
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Thanks for all that info Samoan Irishman!
I do however based on MY research, believe them to be fairly accurate in some things. Like -
1.Jesus not dying on a cross.
When modern day scientist tried to hang a 160lb cadaver from a cross with nails that where created according to common Roman nails of that period, that the corpse fell from the cross being that the hand flesh couldn't sustain the weight.
If you research Roman Law, they would routinely "bound the hands together atop the prisoners head upon the stake" back in that time, to carry out judgement for crimes...the most common punishment being the "maiming" (breaking) of both legs. Even the bible says Christ was executed along with a thief and a murderer..why would they change it for him? Guess it's possible...but unlikely.
The test of hanging a corpse on a cross and having it "not work" should not be your criteria for not believing Jesus died on the cross.
When people were crucified, they were still alive. It was hard for them to breathe so they would "push themselves up" with their legs to help them breathe and alleviate the pain from their hands pulling on the nails.
*Ultimately, the mechanism of death in crucifixion was suffocation. To breathe, the victim was forced to push up on his feet to allow for inflation of the lungs. As the body weakened and pain in the feet and legs became unbearable, the victim was forced to trade breathing for pain and exhaustion. Eventually, the victim would succumb in this way, becoming utterly exhausted or lapsing into unconsciousness so that he could no longer lift his body off the stipes and inflate his lungs. Due to the shallow breathing, the victim’s lungs would begin to collapse in areas, probably causing hypoxia. [In regard to Jesus] ...Due to the loss of blood from the scourging, the victim probably formed a respiratory acidosis, resulting in an increased strain on the heart, which beats faster to compensate. Fluid would also build up in the lungs. Under the stress of hypoxia and acidosis, the heart would eventually fail. (from allaboutjesuschrist.org)*
If the victim did not die quickly enough for the soldiers (death by crucifixion takes hours) they would break their legs so they would no longer be able to use them to push their weight up and thus, die more quickly. Christ was crucified between 2 other men. The soldiers broke their legs but when they went to Jesus, He was already dead so there was no need to break His legs. This fulfills yet another prophecy that He was/is the Messiah:
Psalm 34:20..."he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken."
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I remember seeing some of the pamphlets at relatives houses. I laughed at one that said that if you act out at your parents you will do drugs, then have sex, the become a f-up.
:o....so that's what happened to me :-[
And I always wonder, "Why is is that white people always get to go heaven" Or,"So there were no Asian or African people in the Biblical days?" I guess they didn't exist....or were in hell for being immoral.
??? Is that a teaching of Jehova's Witnesses?
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:o....so that's what happened to me :-[
??? Is that a teaching of Jehova's Witnesses?
No, just the pamphlets at the time didn't have anybody of color. But, none of my folks had questioned that. Kinda like the Flintstones cartoon or the Jetson's cartoon.
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Oh, well most of the JW's that go door to door around here are black. I had the pleasure of speaking w/2 of them....one, an older lady who was somewhat knowledgable of where certain verses are in the bible but took things out of context almost everytime. The other was a younger gal who was actually surprised that certain scriptures were in the bible such as ones about Salvation being a free gift from God...and that you didn't have to and can't earn and can't lose your Salvation.
I gave her my email so we could chat further but I never heard from her. I think the older lady may have put the kibash on that. :-\
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Most of the JW's I have met, think they know everything about the Bible, like they wrote it >:(. And if I don't follow what they say, i won't be one of the 144,000 (I don't think they will be either) There is one older guy that I have seen when helping my father with yard work. He only comes by, when I am helping my dad, one day he said, "I can tell you are a hard worker, because your father is", It kinda made me feel proud of my dad, then the due handed me a JW pamphlet. I listened to him, and was polite, and i vibed with him. I felt that, him being older, that there was a lot of wisdom that I could glean from him. And he wasn't being arrogant.
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i won't be one of the 144,000
Parker, who do they say the 144,000 are?
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Parker, who do they say the 144,000 are?
You got me, I bleive the 144,000 are the true beleivers who will get into heaven. Iforgot what what it says in the bible...
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The 144,000 are the select few choosen by JC to serve directly under him when he assumes the throne after the war of Armageddon. (Revelations Chapter 7) They are the only ones allowed to ingest the wine and unfermented cakes during the passover (nissan 14th..April to us..days vary as ancient days started in what we call the afternoon..it's always during a full moon though)
All others are believed to live in eternal paradise here on Earth as Adam and Eve did. They were perfect, and not supposed to die (in Genesis somewhere). That they say was Gods original purpose...before they screwed it up.
PS - I searched through some of my mom's stuff that dates back to the early 80's and there were plenty other races depicted. NONE negatively..in fact the pictures usually had 2 or more of the major races in them - White, Black, Hispanic, Asian
Here's the explanation to the Cross thing -
http://www.watchtower.org/e/200604a/article_01.htm
Racism is viewed as un-Christian to JW's. They are very neutral to many things..including politics. They don't vote ect...Hitler even sent them to concentration camps with the Jews
Stella - btw...the title of this thread contains a spelling error ... Jehovah (Psalms 83:18)
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Is this true? I've heard it before, but I don't know if it's true.
http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=7500
Charles Taze Russell, founder of the movement in 1872
what kind of a man was this Charles Taze Russell? He was certainly an expert at making money, whether in the drapery business until he sold it, or by investments in mines and real estate, or by the selling of his books, and of "miracle wheat." Unfortunately he was legally compelled to restore to the purchasers the money he had obtained for his miracle wheat, on the score that it had been dishonestly extracted from them. But honesty was not Pastor Russell's predominant virtue. Under oath in court at Hamilton, Ontario, Canada, in 1913, he declared in support of his claims to be an expert Scripture scholar that he knew Greek. Handed a Greek New Testament, he was forced to admit that he did not know even the Greek alphabet; and that he knew nothing of Hebrew or of Latin, despite his pretensions to a knowledge of those languages also. Not to know such languages is no crime, of course. But to make lying pretensions to a knowledge of them is scarcely in keeping with claims to be a prophet of God; whilst to do so under oath is the still worse sin of perjury.
Not less unbecoming in this self-styled prophet was the fact that his wife divorced him in 1897 on charges of adultery with two different women, a stenographer and a housemaid; and that the judge flayed him, after granting the divorce, for his general ill-treatment of his wife. To avoid payment of the alimony ordered by the court, Russell promptly transferred his property, worth over $240,000, to the "Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society."
Russell died on October 31st, 1916, in a Santa Fe train near Pampa, Texas, on his way to Kansas City; and he is now seldom mentioned by the Witnesses of Jehovah. This man, once held by his followers to rank next after St. Paul in the "gallery of fame," has been practically forgotten by the later generation dominated by his successor.
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How about this one?
Judge J. F. Rutherford
At the time of Russell's death there was a man named Joseph Franklin Rutherford serving a prison sentence in Atlanta jail on a charge of sedition during the first world war then raging. This man, on his release from prison, took over control of the Russellite organization.
Rutherford was born in 1869, and became a lawyer in 1892. Chosen as attorney for the organization, he was shrewd enough to see its possibilities, and threw in his lot with it. As president, he wished to be known by the impressive title of "Judge Rutherford," though he was never officially appointed as a judge. His forceful personality set the movement definitely on its feet. He poured out unending books and pamphlets to keep the publishing business going, teaching new doctrines of which Russell had never heard and often quite opposed to what Russell himself had taught. It was he, as we have seen, who devised in 1931 the new title, "Witnesses of Jehovah." The prominence he gave to the slogan, "Millions now living will never die," brought crowds flocking to hear him wherever he was billed to speak. But, alas, he was not one of the millions fated not to die.
On January 8th, 1942, judge Joseph Franklin Rutherford bade goodbye to this world in the palatial villa he had built at San Diego, California, as an official residence pending the return of the Lord to judge the living and the dead.
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Hell I don't know! ..lol
I tried to ask my Mother about this and she won't talk about it nor read it...she says it's "Apostate" writings of which they are NEVER to read. They believe Apostates (people who try to turn people away from their religion...especially if they were at one time in it) do the only unforgivable sin - blasphamy against God himself.
She said that if I try to make her read these thing or talk to her about it she can no LONGER HAVE ME OVER TO HER HOUSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
...haven't spoken to her since....don't think I will for a while.
PS- I would LOVE to see ACTUAL documentation of this..so far it's hearsay. One religion trying to cut down another..though they both believe in God and JC?!...
Maybe I'll send her the proof if I ever get it...in the mail.
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Stella - btw...the title of this thread contains a spelling error ... Jehovah (Psalms 83:18)
Fixed. Thanks SamoanIrishman :)
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Stella wrote -
"The test of hanging a corpse on a cross and having it "not work" should not be your criteria for not believing Jesus died on the cross.
When people were crucified, they were still alive. It was hard for them to breathe so they would "push themselves up" with their legs to help them breathe and alleviate the pain from their hands pulling on the nails.
*Ultimately, the mechanism of death in crucifixion was suffocation. To breathe, the victim was forced to push up on his feet to allow for inflation of the lungs. As the body weakened and pain in the feet and legs became unbearable, the victim was forced to trade breathing for pain and exhaustion. Eventually, the victim would succumb in this way, becoming utterly exhausted or lapsing into unconsciousness so that he could no longer lift his body off the stipes and inflate his lungs. Due to the shallow breathing, the victim’s lungs would begin to collapse in areas, probably causing hypoxia. [In regard to Jesus] ...Due to the loss of blood from the scourging, the victim probably formed a respiratory acidosis, resulting in an increased strain on the heart, which beats faster to compensate. Fluid would also build up in the lungs. Under the stress of hypoxia and acidosis, the heart would eventually fail. (from allaboutjesuschrist.org)*
If the victim did not die quickly enough for the soldiers (death by crucifixions takes hours) they would break their legs so they would no longer be able to use them to push their weight up and thus, die more quickly. Christ was crucified between 2 other men. The soldiers broke their legs but when they went to Jesus, He was already dead so there was no need to break His legs. This fulfills yet another prophecy that He was/is the Messiah:
Psalm 34:20..."he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken."
[/quote]
Funny enough last night on the "Naked Archaeologist" they did an entire show on Crucifixions (sp?). They proved that the long time belief of suffocation as the cause of death is no longer supported. The test subject couldn't last longer than 4 minutes in the position! One guy did last longer but had to be taken down being that his heart rate dip to dangerous levels. Instead they believe it is a mixture of shock, heart failure.
Also, there is evidence that most where done via hands above the head (like diving in a pool, try it and take a deep breath..hard huh?) where it was with rope or nails. Nails piercing a little below the wrist (so wrist bones support body weight) so that suffocation does come into play. One thing that was mentioned is that ropes where used more often being that you could live up to 3 days (torture, assuming they could hold their bodyweight up with their legs..hence why it was common to break their legs) they theorize vs. up to 8hrs with nails. (blood loss, shock, dehydration)
They even uncovered a heel bone with a nail still in it on one dig! Only 1 has ever been found...but 1 is enough to prove that it was a real form of murder. They theorize that not many are found cause nails were not only expensive (thus stolen) but also considered a "lucky charm"! (nails used in the crucification rituals)...
anyways...a real cool show, check it out if you can when it re-runs.
Also, if you translate the Hebrew - Greek work used for "cross" in most translations...it is translated wrong. Strong's, Thayer's, and Vine's dictionaries leave little or no room for doubt that "stauros", translated "cross," actually translates to "an upright stake" or "pole". Ergo...
It is highly unlikely that Lord Jesus was crucified on a T-shaped cross. Instead, He was probably crucified on an upright stake...which was common Roman practice. While there is no evidence either way on how Jesus died, there is evidence and documentation on the Romans and their "common" practices. Not says they didn't draw outside the lines every once in a while.
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Funny enough last night on the "Naked Archaeologist" they did an entire show on Crucifixions (sp?). They proved that the long time belief of suffocation as the cause of death is no longer supported. The test subject couldn't last longer than 4 minutes in the position! One guy did last longer but had to be taken down being that his heart rate dip to dangerous levels. Instead they believe it is a mixture of shock, heart failure.
Also, there is evidence that most where done via hands above the head (like diving in a pool, try it and take a deep breath..hard huh?) where it was with rope or nails. Nails piercing a little below the wrist (so wrist bones support body weight) so that suffocation does come into play. One thing that was mentioned is that ropes where used more often being that you could live up to 3 days (torture, assuming they could hold their bodyweight up with their legs..hence why it was common to break their legs) they theorize vs. up to 8hrs with nails. (blood loss, shock, dehydration)
They even uncovered a heel bone with a nail still in it on one dig! Only 1 has ever been found...but 1 is enough to prove that it was a real form of murder. They theorize that not many are found cause nails were not only expensive (thus stolen) but also considered a "lucky charm"! (nails used in the crucification rituals)...
anyways...a real cool show, check it out if you can when it re-runs.
Also, if you translate the Hebrew - Greek work used for "cross" in most translations...it is translated wrong. Strong's, Thayer's, and Vine's dictionaries leave little or no room for doubt that "stauros", translated "cross," actually translates to "an upright stake" or "pole". Ergo...
It is highly unlikely that Lord Jesus was crucified on a T-shaped cross. Instead, He was probably crucified on an upright stake...which was common Roman practice. While there is no evidence either way on how Jesus died, there is evidence and documentation on the Romans and their "common" practices. Not says they didn't draw outside the lines every once in a while.
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=148931.msg2097196#msg2097196