Learning Thread *Jehovah's Witnesses*

[Deedee]

Jehovah's Witness and Mormonism are seen by Christian theologists as cults of Christianity.  Also, would you agree that there is bias in all facets of religion, whether you be Jewish, Christian, Muslim, or even atheist?  Religion is about man, not about God. 

When you say Christian theologists, who exactly are you including in that group? Also, when you say "cult,"  are you using the meaning of the word as in splinter group or faction? 

Also, yes, I believe people are biased towards people of other faiths because of many reasons, among which are  fear or simple ignorance, which is why I think it's important to consider information from sources that are objective.

(p.s. btw, I'm not trying to be a wise crack with these or my comments above, I'm interested in the topic.)

[Colossus_500]

When you say Christian theologists, who exactly are you including in that group? Also, when you say "cult,"  are you using the meaning of the word as in splinter group or faction? 

  I'm speaking of the C.S Lewis', Malcolm Muggeridge's, Ravi Zacharias', and other mindsets like G.K. Chesterton when I refer to the theologians.  These are people that I believe have sought truth in understanding other factions.  Yes, when I say cult, I mean it as religous sects.

Also, yes, I believe people are biased towards people of other faiths because of many reasons, among which are  fear or simple ignorance, which is why I think it's important to consider information from sources that are objective.

(p.s. btw, I'm not trying to be a wise crack with these or my comments above, I'm interested in the topic.)

No worries.  We're just asking questions and giving our opinions.  Yes, you are right in the sense that it's imperative to consider the source of where we glean information.  But you have to admit, in doing so, you'll be hard pressed to find any source of information regarding religion that is totally unbiased.  At the end of the day, it all comes down to making the decision of whether you agree or disagree.  You have to take a stand at some point on every issue in my opinion. 

[Butterbean]

OK!  I posted a request on Gossip & Opinions for a JW to help us out down here.  "dseiler" is someone who studied w/JW's for a year but in fact, did not join the JWs.

Seems to me he will have a lot of info from which we can all learn.

Hopefully he'll come down here soon and join us in this discussion.

Meanwhile, carry on

[dseiler]

Greets all, here to engage in some discussion.

I studied with JW for about a year, honestly because I fell hard for this girl in high school who turned out to be a devout worshipper. Funny thing is now she's gone down a different path. (I always thought her to be a more open minded.) Anyway, I followed mainly because they were very open about letting just about anyone in with a desire to learn. Everyone was very friendly, very family-oriented. The time they require you spend with your family (both biologically and spiritual families) makes for some excellent bonding time. It's about the only part of the whole JW experience I clicked with. I liked getting closer to God until I found out about the segregation, no blood transfusions, bible translations. These, I still believe to this day, are man-made. God does not wish us to segregate and seperate. Onto one of the biggies: 

One of the fundamental problems I believe inherent in the Bible is the many translations. Go into any bookstore an you'll see 50 different versions from the King James to the New World Translation. JW's use the NWT exclusively, and they are famous for taking things out of context. From what I rememeber, the "Anointed" (see 144,000), or the governing body of JW's are the primary translators of this version so what they say goes. For example, take a look at John 1:1:

In the KJV (King James Version, generally followed by most catholic/christian denominations) John 1:1 says
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

In the NWT (New World Translation, JW Bible) it says:
"In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was a god."

Apparently adding the word A changes the whole philosophy of Jesus (the Word) being a part of God, God's Son, etc. This makes Jesus nothing more than a devout follower.

There are numerous changes like this in their translation of the Bible.

[Butterbean]

Greets all, here to engage in some discussion.

I studied with JW for about a year, honestly because I fell hard for this girl in high school who turned out to be a devout worshipper. Funny thing is now she's gone down a different path. (I always thought her to be a more open minded.) Anyway, I followed mainly because they were very open about letting just about anyone in with a desire to learn. Everyone was very friendly, very family-oriented. The time they require you spend with your family (both biologically and spiritual families) makes for some excellent bonding time. It's about the only part of the whole JW experience I clicked with. I liked getting closer to God until I found out about the segregation, no blood transfusions, bible translations. These, I still believe to this day, are man-made. God does not wish us to segregate and seperate. Onto one of the biggies: 

One of the fundamental problems I believe inherent in the Bible is the many translations. Go into any bookstore an you'll see 50 different versions from the King James to the New World Translation. JW's use the NWT exclusively, and they are famous for taking things out of context. From what I rememeber, the "Anointed" (see 144,000), or the governing body of JW's are the primary translators of this version so what they say goes. For example, take a look at John 1:1:

In the KJV (King James Version, generally followed by most catholic/christian denominations) John 1:1 says
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

In the NWT (New World Translation, JW Bible) it says:
"In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was a god."

Apparently adding the word A changes the whole philosophy of Jesus (the Word) being a part of God, God's Son, etc. This makes Jesus nothing more than a devout follower.

There are numerous changes like this in their translation of the Bible.

Thanks for coming down here to help us out dseiler.  Very much appreciated!

Do you know when the JW version of the bible was first created?  And how do they explain the fact that they made subtle changes to the original, thus (as you've shown) changing entire meanings of certain verses?

[Deedee]

  I'm speaking of the C.S Lewis', Malcolm Muggeridge's, Ravi Zacharias', and other mindsets like G.K. Chesterton when I refer to the theologians.  These are people that I believe have sought truth in understanding other factions.  Yes, when I say cult, I mean it as religous sects.


No worries.  We're just asking questions and giving our opinions.  Yes, you are right in the sense that it's imperative to consider the source of where we glean information.  But you have to admit, in doing so, you'll be hard pressed to find any source of information regarding religion that is totally unbiased.  At the end of the day, it all comes down to making the decision of whether you agree or disagree.  You have to take a stand at some point on every issue in my opinion. 

I think I originally misunderstood your use of the word cult.  That's why I double checked. And, fair enough, your selected representatives seem to embody the more tolerant and common sense approach to understanding different religious groups.  I was thinking more in the vein that I'd like to hear from, say, the head of the Comparative Religious Studies program at Harvard. 

[Deedee]

In the KJV (King James Version, generally followed by most catholic/christian denominations) John 1:1 says
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

In the NWT (New World Translation, JW Bible) it says:
"In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was a god."

Apparently adding the word A changes the whole philosophy of Jesus (the Word) being a part of God, God's Son, etc. This makes Jesus nothing more than a devout follower.

There are numerous changes like this in their translation of the Bible.

I remembered this as well, in fact, the above was what always stuck with me. Because the OT is the primary book of worship, and the belief system is similar to the Jewish one, i.e. the Messiah has not yet arrived, has some of the text been interpreted to fit that belief system?

[dseiler]

Thanks for coming down here to help us out dseiler.  Very much appreciated!

Do you know when the JW version of the bible was first created?  And how do they explain the fact that they made subtle changes to the original, thus (as you've shown) changing entire meanings of certain verses?

This is just the problem, who knows if/when there was an original.

[dseiler]

BTW, Wikipedia has an excellent entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witness

[Butterbean]

Hey dseiler, do you have any information on the following?

since they believe that people can lose their salvation if "they do not adhere to all of God's requirements," -- which is impossible for everyone --  how are people supposed to "get their salvation back?"  Through their own works and deeds that the bible describes as filthy rags in regard to obtaining one's own salvation?  Or would Jesus have to die again?  

[Butterbean]

Well, I don't know where dseiler has been but today I was skating and saw several JW's walking in pairs around a neighborhood.

I stopped and talked w/a pair of them for a while and asked them about the salvation thing.  They said they believe that to be saved you must accept Jesus as Savior (whom they believe is actually the archangle Michael) AND have to keep doing the "Lord's work" till you die and then MAYBE you get into heaven and maybe you don't.


I asked them how they felt about Eph 2:8,9 that states:  "You are saved by grace through faith and NOT of works, so that no one can boast."  .....The one older lady (who didn't seem to really know what she believed as she would state scriptures that maybe had something to do w/which we were talking and sometimes did not) gave some unrelated scripture as an answer but the younger lady said she hadn't been aware of that scripture before and would to look into it.

I also directed them to the beginning of Galatians Chapter 3 where it talks about "Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by BELIEVING what you heard?  Are you so foolish?  After beginning w/the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?  etc..


....the younger lady said she'd look into that one too.

I gave her my email address and hopefully she'll email me and I can post her explanations and beliefs here.

[Butterbean]

Oh yeah, and we touched a bit on the Trinity and them not believing that Jesus was God but was still able to live a perfect life thus being the perfect sacrifice and how that was possible if He wasn't God and they said it was because God empowered Jesus to live a sinless life.

Hopefully if she emails me we'll be able to get into that part more.

Oh and while they were trying to refute the Trinity they quoted a scripture that said "And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord (Jehova) shall be saved" and I pointed out that it didn't say "And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord.............and does a bunch of works..shall be saved." 

("calls" of course being much more than yelling w/your mouth but w/your heart also)


They were very nice and the conversation was very interesting

[Al-Gebra]

If I told someone that I was out walking w a bible in my hand when a hot (and sweaty? woman on rollerblades stopped me and talked my ear off about religion, no one would believe me . . . but now I have proof that it does happen. 

[Butterbean]

If I told someone that I was out walking w a bible in my hand when a hot (and sweaty? woman on rollerblades stopped me and talked my ear off about religion, no one would believe me . . . but now I have proof that it does happen. 

 

The first pair of gals I saw I first wondered if they were JWs or Avon Ladies.   

[Colossus_500]

Well, I don't know where dseiler has been but today I was skating and saw several JW's walking in pairs around a neighborhood.

I stopped and talked w/a pair of them for a while and asked them about the salvation thing.  They said they believe that to be saved you must accept Jesus as Savior (whom they believe is actually the archangle Michael) AND have to keep doing the "Lord's work" till you die and then MAYBE you get into heaven and maybe you don't.


I asked them how they felt about Eph 2:8,9 that states:  "You are saved by grace through faith and NOT of works, so that no one can boast."  .....The one older lady (who didn't seem to really know what she believed as she would state scriptures that maybe had something to do w/which we were talking and sometimes did not) gave some unrelated scripture as an answer but the younger lady said she hadn't been aware of that scripture before and would to look into it.

I also directed them to the beginning of Galatians Chapter 3 where it talks about "Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by BELIEVING what you heard?  Are you so foolish?  After beginning w/the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?  etc..


....the younger lady said she'd look into that one too.

I gave her my email address and hopefully she'll email me and I can post her explanations and beliefs here.

Stella,  have you heard from the one JW lady yet?

[Butterbean]

Stella,  have you heard from the one JW lady yet?

No.  And I'm bummed because I wanted to ask her about so much stuff...including their take on the 144,000.

[Colossus_500]

No.  And I'm bummed because I wanted to ask her about so much stuff...including their take on the 144,000.

Yeah, that would have been very interesting.  I hope she ends up contacting you. 

[Butterbean]

Yeah, that would have been very interesting.  I hope she ends up contacting you. 

Me too.   

[Colossus_500]

STella, can we move on to another group?

[Butterbean]

STella, can we move on to another group?

Of course Colossus!  What should we do?   

[Colossus_500]

I'm game for anything.  There's so much out there that we need to learn about and where they originate.

[Dos Equis]

Have you done the Jewish faith?  Sort of a hot topic.

[Colossus_500]

Man, Beach, you beat me to it.     I was thinking in light of what's going on in the Middle East, we could take a look at the Jewish faith.

[SamoanIrishman]

My mother is one (for the last 25yrs)...I was raised as one.

Here is the official site -

http://www.watchtower.org/

Use the search function.

[OneBigMan]

Guess which murder rapper was revealed to once be a jehovah witness while in school

That is the one who has a long rap sheet and a criminal profile that identifies him as J Rule.