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Getbig Main Boards => General Topics => Topic started by: 240 is Back on September 15, 2006, 09:20:15 AM
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1. Do you support the use of torture by the US Govt, used against people we catch overseas, to get info which is important for national security?
2. Do you support the use of torture by other nations, used against US military/intel officers captured overseas, when these countries feel it is important for their nat'l security?
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1. Do you support the use of torture by the US Govt, used against people we catch overseas, to get info which is important for national security?
2. Do you support the use of torture by other nations, used against US military/intel officers captured overseas, when these countries feel it is important for their nat'l security?
1. Yes
2. No
Just kidding. I feel torture dehumanizes the torturer as well as the tortured.
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Fmr Secretary of State Colin Powell, lines up with John McCain to oppose Bush plan to legalize torture.
http://video.msn.com/v/us/v.htm?g=f9cdd830-5655-437e-8d71-14b8948cffac&f=06/64&fg=copy (http://video.msn.com/v/us/v.htm?g=f9cdd830-5655-437e-8d71-14b8948cffac&f=06/64&fg=copy)
Powell opposes interrogation plans
http://video.msn.com/v/us/v.htm?g=6e82520a-dbec-4bfd-bfd7-8df0814f0e9e&f=06/64&fg=copy (http://video.msn.com/v/us/v.htm?g=6e82520a-dbec-4bfd-bfd7-8df0814f0e9e&f=06/64&fg=copy)
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1. Yes
2. No
Just kidding. I feel torture dehumanizes the torturer as well as the tortured.
Yes I agree. Maybe next time the us military can imploy cookie doh tactics and tempt those fugitives with the good old baking smell.
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1. No
2. No!
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No i don't but i do believe we need to throw out the Geneva convention that is the rules of war if you don't know what it is.
there are not many countries that follow this,take for instance our government sent a drone plan over Iraq and we spotted over 150 taliban terrorist at a funeral.The airforce commander wired in the info so we could blow these fucker to there death and the us government said no the Geneva convention doesn't allow us to send a military strike against any enemy in a cemetery..aaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhh fuck.
This is a true event just happened im ex marine and we have rules of engagment i think we could have been in and out of iraq in 1 month if we said fuck that but we cannot.we would have had bim laden a long time ago as well...we are fighting animals that will saw heads off our people and others.but we still will not change our rules :'( :'( :'( :'( many lives could have been saved if not for our weakness as a nation in this area..
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1.yes
2. already happens all the time.
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1.yes
2. already happens all the time.
yup
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That's a good question. When does interrogation become inhuman torture? I can see, and kinda like the idea of playing Red Hot Chilie Peppers non stop for days and feeding them red hot chili peppers ;D I wonder who came up with that one. On the other hand when you start using the shock the nipples and worse devises that could slowly kill. That's where I must draw the line. War today is so much more intelligence necessary than it ever was, so getting information could and probably will save lives. It's gotta be an individual, case by case thing. You can't treat an 80 year old lady, who knows what's going to happen, the same as you could handle a 25 year old war hardened terrorist, can you? I would use things like sleep deprivation, cramped quarters, cold, light things that suck, but will not kill. I guess short of killing or maiming, that's as far as we should go. IMO
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1 - yes
2 - yes
it's the name of the game
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1. Yes, if it means our national security is at stake
2. Yes, if it meant we were threatening the security of another nation. But are we?????
Another way to ask this question.
1. Do you have the right to torture someone who has kidnapped YOUR child and knows of his/her whereabouts?
2. Does the parent of the child YOU'VE kidnapped have the right to torture YOU when YOU know of his/her whereabouts?
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1. Do you support the use of torture by the US Govt, used against people we catch overseas, to get info which is important for national security?
2. Do you support the use of torture by other nations, used against US military/intel officers captured overseas, when these countries feel it is important for their nat'l security?
YES.
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Before i answer the question:
What if the guy you are torturing doesn't really know the information you are looking for? Is torture justified then?
If we caught some guy who knew where a terrorist cell was that was planning to blow up a stadium full of people at a football game then i agree torture is appropiate to get the information.
But torture for general purposes as a way of fishing for information is not something i am for.
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1. Yes.
2. No.
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Anyone who believes the US should be allowed to breakthe rules of Geneva, but no other nation on Earth should be allowed to...
Can you explain your reasoning for this?
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Anyone who believes the US should be allowed to breakthe rules of Geneva, but no other nation on Earth should be allowed to...
Can you explain your reasoning for this?
snicker snicker snicker............... becuase we are a nation representing GOD? There fore we are justified? Because GWB was appoointed by GOD?................snicker snicker snicker
All's fair in love and war?................snicker snicker snicker
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Anyone who believes the US should be allowed to breakthe rules of Geneva, but no other nation on Earth should be allowed to...
Can you explain your reasoning for this?
One simple reason, 240...The people that we are battling do NOT fall under the Geneva rules.
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One simple reason, 240...The people that we are battling do NOT fall under the Geneva rules.
As in all countries, there are crazy fcuks who will do insane stuff like behead people and suicide bomb. Here in the states, we've had maniacs who shot up schools, snipered in DC, etc. So I don't think you can ever label ANY country's people with such a broad brush, based upon a few maniacs.
Which "people we are battling" don't fall under Geneva? Also, when was this decided, and by who?
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One simple reason, 240...The people that we are battling do NOT fall under the Geneva rules.
So becuase they are not citizens of the USA we can do what ever we want to them?
So becuase they didn't subcribe or were invovled in the Geneva Convention it's ok we: Do on to them , but it's not ok they do on to us? Aren't we allegedly a christian nation? Or is that at our convenience only?
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Gen. Conv. Common Article 3 provides that all detainees, whether prisoners of war, civilians or so-called unlawful combatants, are legally entitled to humane treatment in all circumstances. They may not be subject to “cruel treatment and torture” or “outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment.”
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So becuase they are not citizens of the USA we can do what ever we want to them?
So becuase they didn't subcribe or were invovled in the Geneva Convention it's ok we: Do on to them , but it's not ok they do on to us? Aren't we allegedly a christian nation? Or is that at our convenience only?
Agreed. in addition,
1) Imagine the reaction of other nations of the world if/when it becomes COMMON PRACTICE for the US to torture prisoners. Good luck ever getting a coalition together again.
2) How long until Bush decides that "Aw shoot, we have people we think are terrorists here in the US too. We should be allowed to torture them too!"?
3) How long until the classification of "terrorist" moves from "those who kill Americans", down to "those who WANT to kill Americans", down to "those who endanger our nation by questioning official policy"?
Think about it. Five years ago, no one would have dreamed that today we'd be in 2 wars and on the verge of a third. No one would have guessed that we'd be allowing wireless wiretapping and searches without ever telling the person. Who could have predicted that the Prez of the US would actually be standing in the Rose Garden, arguing with reporters over why the US, and only the US, should be allowed to toture people?
Crazy shit. Curb it now of it's gonna get worse folks. We keep up this slide and in 5 years, talking bad about bush (or condi, then) might just get you tortured and denied counsel, because you're a "suspected terrorist".
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If you support torture for America’s enemies then in effect, you support it for American servicemen (and women) when they are captured in the future (and they will be). It’s not a coincidence that Bush and Cheney, neither of which saw armed combat, are so eager to alter U.S. compliance with the Geneva conventions while those who have seen combat (McCain, Powell, etc.) are opposed to it.
Their rhetoric notwithstanding, Bush and Cheney do not care about American troops. They don’t care about troops currently serving and they don’t care about troops that will be serving in the future. McCain and Powell do which is why they will go to the mat to stop the US from torturing. Doom approves.
For all his tough talk, Cheney only has the courage to pick up a gun when his opponent is a wild pheasant. How the American people can follow a leader like that… not even Doom can figure out. :-[
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Agreed. in addition,
1) Imagine the reaction of other nations of the world if/when it becomes COMMON PRACTICE for the US to torture prisoners. Good luck ever getting a coalition together again.
2) How long until Bush decides that "Aw shoot, we have people we think are terrorists here in the US too. We should be allowed to torture them too!"?
3) How long until the classification of "terrorist" moves from "those who kill Americans", down to "those who WANT to kill Americans", down to "those who endanger our nation by questioning official policy"?
Think about it. Five years ago, no one would have dreamed that today we'd be in 2 wars and on the verge of a third. No one would have guessed that we'd be allowing wireless wiretapping and searches without ever telling the person. Who could have predicted that the Prez of the US would actually be standing in the Rose Garden, arguing with reporters over why the US, and only the US, should be allowed to toture people?
Crazy shit. Curb it now of it's gonna get worse folks. We keep up this slide and in 5 years, talking bad about bush (or condi, then) might just get you tortured and denied counsel, because you're a "suspected terrorist".
Too late on #3, Rob, they already labelled a bunch of teachers & librarians in the USA terrorists?
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Yes, and yes. If it involves war. War is not meant to be nice, right? Since when are there rules in war? Like in a fight, I will do anything to win, pull hair, bite, eye gouge anything to win so why does the same not apply. It irritates me that people say it is inhumane. Who cares, they are trying to kill you and your country so why not win by any means necessary. For example, when they cut the guys head off and posted it on the internet for the world to see. I would have done the same thing, you bring your ass to where you don't belong and try to kill me, I am going to do any thing necessary to get in your head and ultimate win the war. I don't think the things done in torture are wrong sure it may not be the niceest thing in the world but damn when the person got tortured what where they problay trying to do..... kill the torturer or someone on their side or maybe even get info that would lead to the killing or capture of their people? Can you blame them, honestly. Imagine having to sit in your home with guns and bombs going off outside, think if that were your neighboor hood, what would you do to someone who was trying to take that away from you.... i would torture them until they gave me the info i wanted or died. Its a fucking war. Get over it, its not like the people who receive the torture did not put themselves in the postion not to be captured. But then again I am only a red blooded sourthern boy so what would I know.........
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So becuase they are not citizens of the USA we can do what ever we want to them?
If these non-citizens are killing Americans? YES And, OzmO, you KNOW that there us much more than what you would like to make this out to be.
So becuase they didn't subcribe or were invovled in the Geneva Convention it's ok we: Do on to them , but it's not ok they do on to us? Aren't we allegedly a christian nation? Or is that at our convenience only?
Our means of torture (ala the Red Hot Chili Peppers or stripping them down naked) is not the same kind of torture that you are trying to equate with that of these religious fanatics (whom on another thread you seem to agree upon their violent tactics). It's not a matter of convenience. Let me ask you then, if we know why the US is using "torture" tactics, why are the Taliban, Al Quada, other Islamic fascists torturing US citizens? What are they gaining out of it?
let's compare the torture tactics
Red Hot Chili Peppers music and sleep deprivation vs....hmmmm, let's see.... MURDER (videotaped beheadings)
I don't see a likeness.
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Gen. Conv. Common Article 3 provides that all detainees, whether prisoners of war, civilians or so-called unlawful combatants, are legally entitled to humane treatment in all circumstances. They may not be subject to “cruel treatment and torture” or “outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment.”
According what I just read, Article 3 does not mention "unlawful combatants" or terrorists:
"Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria."
http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm
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If these non-citizens are killing Americans? YES And, OzmO, you KNOW that there us much more than what you would like to make this out to be.
Our means of torture (ala the Red Hot Chili Peppers or stripping them down naked) is not the same kind of torture that you are trying to equate with that of these religious fanatics (whom on another thread you seem to agree upon their violent tactics). It's not a matter of convenience. Let me ask you then, if we know why the US is using "torture" tactics, why are the Taliban, Al Quada, other Islamic fascists torturing US citizens? What are they gaining out of it?
let's compare the torture tactics
Red Hot Chili Peppers music and sleep deprivation vs....hmmmm, let's see.... MURDER (videotaped beheadings)
I don't see a likeness.
Ok, there is no way anyone who is involved in torture on the USA's side is going to tell what they really do. That would be bad politics, bad public relations, and bad security. So these "moderate" torture tactics are only on the surface and only a part of what they are willing to do to get information.
Addiitonally, read my first response to this, I don't believe in general purpose toture as a way of fishing for information. However i do believe in torture for specific reasons to save lives from an impending attack. And i believe it's justifiable on both sides.
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1. Do you support the use of torture by the US Govt, used against people we catch overseas, to get info which is important for national security?
2. Do you support the use of torture by other nations, used against US military/intel officers captured overseas, when these countries feel it is important for their nat'l security?
Yes and Yes, we're not fighting a military and were not fighting anyone that certainly doesn't follow the rules of the Geneva Convention or any rules for that matter...shouldn't even be an issue!
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Ok, there is no way anyone who is involved in torture on the USA's side is going to tell what they really do. That would be bad politics, bad public relations, and bad security. So these "moderate" torture tactics are only on the surface and only a part of what they are willing to do to get information.
Addiitonally, read my first response to this, I don't believe in general purpose toture as a way of fishing for information. However i do believe in torture for specific reasons to save lives from an impending attack. And i believe it's justifiable on both sides.
Let's be honest, bro. This stuff has been going on for YEARS. I'm certain we've murdered people for information too. It would be asinine to think that our country has not done this.
At the end of the day, is this something we need to be arguing over? I eat chicken, beef, or turkey and enjoy the taste, but were I to delve into how the vendors handle this type of food is not something I need to know. And were I to research how, I'm almost certain I'd find some inhumane measures that I would not agree with. And so it is with military tactics...I like knowing that my family can sleep safely. But I know I might find some troubling thoughts were I to know what has to take place in order for me to sleep at night.
I know it's a strange analogy, but it's the best I can think of at the moment.
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If these non-citizens are killing Americans? YES And, OzmO, you KNOW that there us much more than what you would like to make this out to be.
Our means of torture (ala the Red Hot Chili Peppers or stripping them down naked) is not the same kind of torture that you are trying to equate with that of these religious fanatics (whom on another thread you seem to agree upon their violent tactics). It's not a matter of convenience. Let me ask you then, if we know why the US is using "torture" tactics, why are the Taliban, Al Quada, other Islamic fascists torturing US citizens? What are they gaining out of it?
let's compare the torture tactics
Red Hot Chili Peppers music and sleep deprivation vs....hmmmm, let's see.... MURDER (videotaped beheadings)
I don't see a likeness.
Dude, woah - we are allowed to hurt their children in order to get info from them. We are allowed to starve their wives and family to get them to tlak. Did you know that? The music made it on the news, but the tools we want to employ include hot/cold, mock executions, mock drownings, and family member manipulation. What if even once, they get the wrong guy, and he has to sit in a cage watching his wife getting beaten or his children starving?
For fucks sake, man. You ever think this shit thru? You have kids? You ever want to see some asshole guard undressing your daughter so that you will give up info?
what a fucking disgusting thing this is.
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According what I just read, Article 3 does not mention "unlawful combatants" or terrorists:
The taliban ruled afghanistan in 2001. hell, the US negotiated with them for oil pipeline rights. We recognized them as a state when it came to doing business. then, suddenly we go to war, and they are classified as a terror group and not a legit govt.
The group doing the torture should not get to choose who is and isn't tortureable. jose Padilla is still getting tortured and still doesn't have a lawyer, 5 years later, and he is an american citizen caught on american soil. yes, the newspaper tells us he's evil and had plans to commit a terror act. So why isn't he on trial? why no lawyer, no defense, and no sentence? He's just locked up indefinitely.
it could happen to any of us.
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240 you know what's going on here don't you?
Sheeple have simply turned a blind eye and refused to confront the reality of the situation.
I wonder what Jesus would do, or say about this, ...or for that matter say to Colossus about his attitude? :'(
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240 you know what's going on here don't you?
Sheeple have simply turned a blind eye and refused to confront the reality of the situation.
I wonder what Jesus would do, or say about this, ...or for that matter say to Colossus about his attitude? :'(
I don't get it. I'm a seriously conservative guy. But right now, the constitution is in danger.
FACT: The govt can choose anyone in this country it wants, decide "This man is an unlawful compatitant" and you can be tortured ny the CIA for the rest of your life. There are ZERO safeguards in place.
I don't give a damn what party you are - there are hordes of repubs scared shitless by this too. You guys aren't seeing, this is a two-pronged attack. First they get permission to torture people who are considered terrorists. Then, they use their civil powers IN the usa to label anyone they choose, as a terrorist.
All i can say is, someday you're going to be kicking youself for being so blind to the facts. I have been a diehard repub my whole life, and it's hard to face this, but it's the truth. ANYTHING we authorize our govt to do overseas can be used on ANYONE inside our own borders without the FBI giving evidence to any check/balance body. ANYONE can be held indefinitely for secret evidence.
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But right now, the constitution is in danger.
why don't you confine your posts to things you actually know something about? naw . . . never mind, you'd probably only have 20 posts then.
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240, Now you're beginning to understand just ONE of the many reasons I detest Bush and his cabal.
What's so shocking is how many Americans can't see this... right infront of their very eyes!
When are they going to WAKE UP?!
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why don't you confine your posts to things you actually know something about? naw . . . never mind, you'd probably only have 20 posts then.
You seriously don't believe the constitution is in danger, Algebra?
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Dude, woah - we are allowed to hurt their children in order to get info from them. We are allowed to starve their wives and family to get them to tlak. Did you know that? The music made it on the news, but the tools we want to employ include hot/cold, mock executions, mock drownings, and family member manipulation. What if even once, they get the wrong guy, and he has to sit in a cage watching his wife getting beaten or his children starving?
For fucks sake, man. You ever think this shit thru? You have kids? You ever want to see some asshole guard undressing your daughter so that you will give up info?
what a fucking disgusting thing this is.
In a world waged with war, these things happen, 240? The constitution is in "danger" because you NOW know that we torture people? ??? Would you agree that we've tortured and killed people for information before the time in which we live? If you do, why wasn't the constitution in "danger" then? Quit being so dramatic, bro.
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Let's be honest, bro. This stuff has been going on for YEARS. I'm certain we've murdered people for information too. It would be asinine to think that our country has not done this.
At the end of the day, is this something we need to be arguing over? I eat chicken, beef, or turkey and enjoy the taste, but were I to delve into how the vendors handle this type of food is not something I need to know. And were I to research how, I'm almost certain I'd find some inhumane measures that I would not agree with. And so it is with military tactics...I like knowing that my family can sleep safely. But I know I might find some troubling thoughts were I to know what has to take place in order for me to sleep at night.
I know it's a strange analogy, but it's the best I can think of at the moment.
It was actually a great analogy. Chickens get stuck into very small cages with other chickens where they live there enitire lives. The cage is so small it's like living in an elevator with 9 other people all your life. the floor is part of the cage and there talons often grow in way that doesn't allow them to pick up their feet very well if they wanted to move. The Cages are in a room where the light and dark are simulated and put on a shorter cycle to get them to lay eggs faster and grow faster. The last 3 days or so before they are killed to make the breast meat their food is shut off becuase someone figured out that feeding them those last 3 days won't change the size fo their breats either way.
But other than that, the only problem i have with people's opinion on torture is that what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander.
Hey if you are going to do it then you shouldn't have a moral problem of them doing it to you.
AND if we legally authorize torture in this country that WILL be a huge step backwards towards more restrictions of basic human rights.
I am 100,000 percent against it.
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240 you know what's going on here don't you?
Sheeple have simply turned a blind eye and refused to confront the reality of the situation.
I wonder what Jesus would do, or say about this, ...or for that matter say to Colossus about his attitude? :'(
He wouldn't "step on my neck", I know that much. :P
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You seriously don't believe the constitution is in danger, Algebra?
which part of my post was unclear? ??? I think the constitution is now stronger than it's been in a long time . . .
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What's so shocking is how many Americans can't see this... right infront of their very eyes!
Dude... lol!! Check it out.
The UN says we're lying about Iran's nukes.
The leaders of many countries are saying we knew about 911, and many of them actually warned us.
We won't debate iran on the very points we're ready to bomb them over.
Half of the republicans and most of the Dems believe Bush's torture bill is insane.
So who is pushing the conspiracy now? All of a sudden, Bush is the leader of a very small faction, and majority of the world - and even his own nation - does not support these measures he wants.
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I can’t imagine that anyone with a son or daughter in the military would be in support US torture. To do so would be to give a green light to your own child being tortured in any future conflict with any future enemy.
Of course, Bush and Cheney never saw combat and don’t have any children in the military. Coincidence? No. :(
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which part of my post was unclear? ??? I think the constitution is now stronger than it's been in a long time . . .
:o
[meltdown]Stupiest statement in this history of mankind. You are a dumb fuck. Dumb fuck, ya get that? Warrantless wiretaps. No-inform searches. Patriot Act. And the constitution is STRONGER? Jesus oh jesus... why are people this fucking dumb?[/meltdown]
:)
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He wouldn't "step on my neck", I know that much. :P
I wouldn't step on your neck either, ...you're way too big for that (doesn't mean I wouldn't want to, and doesn't mean I don't fantasize about it) :P
...but seriously, what do you think Jesus would say about your attitude?
Is it keeping with his teachings, ...or would he say Satan is creeping into your heart? seriously? WWJD?
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Dude... lol!! Check it out.
The UN says we're lying about Iran's nukes.
The leaders of many countries are saying we knew about 911, and many of them actually warned us.
We won't debate iran on the very points we're ready to bomb them over.
Half of the republicans and most of the Dems believe Bush's torture bill is insane.
So who is pushing the conspiracy now? All of a sudden, Bush is the leader of a very small faction, and majority of the world - and even his own nation - does not support these measures he wants.
Well i'd say that's good news! :)
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I can’t imagine that anyone with a son or daughter in the military would be in support US torture. To do so would be to give a green light to your own child being tortured in any future conflict with any future enemy.
Of course, Bush and Cheney never saw combat and don’t have any children in the military. Coincidence? No. :(
Again.....we're not fighting a military....for Christs sake, they decapitate people!!
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It was actually a great analogy.
Thanks, and I see your points as well.
But other than that, the only problem i have with people's opinion on torture is that what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander.
Hey if you are going to do it then you shouldn't have a moral problem of them doing it to you.
Then you have to be saddened at the thought of times in biblical history where God ordered every man, woman, AND child murdered during war. And no, I'm not equating America with God, but I say this because things happen that we don't necessarily agree with. That's what I brought up the chicken analogy.
AND if we legally authorize torture in this country that WILL be a huge step backwards towards more restrictions of basic human rights.
I am 100,000 percent against it.
Can we agree to disagree?
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Can we agree to disagree?
That's only an option for reasonable people. Guys who think like you usually demand myway or the highway,
...or torture. :'(
WWJD?
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Again.....we're not fighting a military....for Christs sake, they decapitate people!!
I agree they're pricks, Mr I.
The problem here is that Bush has the power to use these powers against US citizens too.
All he has to do is get infom from any source that John Doe of Anytown, USA might be planning a terror attack. John Doe can be classified as a terrorist, and he no longer gets a lawyer, he can be tortured, and he sits in a cell as long as they wish.
Do you see any potential for abuse here? Shit, what if jag got pissed at you and called the FBI and said that Mr I of Anytown USA might be planning an attack. Suddenly you could very easily find yourself in a cell, classified as a potential enemy combatant, with no quarter to call a lawyer, and a nice lineup of torture techniques waiting for you.
See how this could be abused?
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:o
[meltdown]Stupiest statement in this history of mankind. You are a dumb f**k. Dumb f**k, ya get that? Warrantless wiretaps. No-inform searches. Patriot Act. And the constitution is STRONGER? Jesus oh jesus... why are people this fucking dumb?[/meltdown]
:)
pull your head out of your ass once in a while and let it breathe.
how many of the issues you bring up are being debated in congress and by the supreme ct? they're doing their job, acting as checks and balances on the president's power.
use your head to think, instead of using it as a butt plug. i know it's very difficult for you, but do try for the rest of us.
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I wouldn't step on your neck either, ...you're way too big for that (doesn't mean I wouldn't want to, and doesn't mean I don't fantasize about it) :P
lol!!! ;D Yeah, it's kind of hard to squish a 21 1/2 - 22 inch neck! :o But i know you'd give it your best shot. But i'm glad to know that you wouldn't really do that to me if ever given the chance. (sphew-wipes forehead).
...but seriously, what do you think Jesus would say about your attitude?
Is it keeping with his teachings, ...or would he say Satan is creeping into your heart? seriously? WWJD?
You know biblical history tells us that God ordered even women and children slaughtered at times in the Old Testament. And if I am wrong in my thinking, Jesus would lovingly tell me so. He would help me see my error, just as he would you or anyone else. That's what's so awesome about Him. :) When Jesus returns to this earth, do you think he's going to follow the "Geneva" rules?
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That's only an option for reasonable people. Guys who think like you usually demand myway or the highway,
...or torture. :'(
WWJD?
You would say that you are a person of reason? You don't have a "my way or the highway" mentality? :-\
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lol!!! ;D Yeah, it's kind of hard to squish a 21 1/2 - 22 inch neck!
no way . . . do you weight-train your neck?
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Thanks, and I see your points as well.
Then you have to be saddened at the thought of times in biblical history where God ordered every man, woman, AND child murdered during war. And no, I'm not equating America with God, but I say this because things happen that we don't necessarily agree with. That's what I brought up the chicken analogy.
Can we agree to disagree?
Sure we can agree to disagree. I respect your views even though i may not agree. That's the beauty of America :)
Regardless if GOD was invovled or not. I do not believe in killing innocnent women and children. The GOD i know doesn't do such a thing. I guess that's why i don't believe the BIBLe word for word, but that's another discussion.
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1. Do you support the use of torture by the US Govt, used against people we catch overseas, to get info which is important for national security?
2. Do you support the use of torture by other nations, used against US military/intel officers captured overseas, when these countries feel it is important for their nat'l security?
The US government itself should not be able to feel that they're justified in using torture.
Let's face the facts, there have been many detained and released, and these individuals were later shown to be completely innocent of any wrong doing and they were illegally held by the US government.
The problem here is that there's no other branch checking the US government's actions to see if they're justified or not, which gives the US government the right to do whatever the hell it wants.
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Sure we can agree to disagree. I respect your views even though i may not agree. That's the beauty of America :)
Regardless if GOD was invovled or not. I do not believe in killing innocnent women and children. The GOD i know doesn't do such a thing. I guess that's why i don't believe the BIBLe word for word, but that's another discussion.
Bro, we better stop with the God talk, or else our post will get pulled. :o lol
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no way . . . do you weight-train your neck?
other than shrugs, not really.
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The US government itself should not be able to feel that they're justified in using torture.
If Bush's bill passes, he'll be able to systematically order 5, or 5 thousand, or 50,000 people starved, tortured, etc, to "get info" he needs. I mean, is that not the most unreal shit you've ver heard?
Let's face the facts, there have been many detained and released, and these individuals were later shown to be completely innocent of any wrong doing and they were illegally held by the US government.
1500 rounded up after 911. Held without bond, without seeing a judge. Just held. A year later all but 6 had been released. no apology, no anything. Just released after sitting in a cell for 2, 4, 8, or 12 months.
Did they get their constitutional rights, Al Gebra????
The problem here is that there's no other branch checking the US government's actions to see if they're justified or not, which gives the US government the right to do whatever the hell it wants.
The executive branch (white house and prez) is the wild branch calling for all of this. Congress and the Judicial branch are fighting it. Problem is, the exec branch keeps finding creative ways to "just do it" in the name of nat'l security, and using the vague threat of "terrorism" to justify anything. Yes, there is terrorism. But no, we don't have to shit on constitution to fight it.
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If you support torture for America’s enemies then in effect, you support it for American servicemen (and women) when they are captured in the future (and they will be). It’s not a coincidence that Bush and Cheney, neither of which saw armed combat, are so eager to alter U.S. compliance with the Geneva conventions while those who have seen combat (McCain, Powell, etc.) are opposed to it.
Their rhetoric notwithstanding, Bush and Cheney do not care about American troops. They don’t care about troops currently serving and they don’t care about troops that will be serving in the future. McCain and Powell do which is why they will go to the mat to stop the US from torturing. Doom approves.
For all his tough talk, Cheney only has the courage to pick up a gun when his opponent is a wild pheasant. How the American people can follow a leader like that… not even Doom can figure out. :-[
I guess you forgot what happened to Nick Berg and Daniel Pearl and Paul Anderson????????????????
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lol!!! ;D Yeah, it's kind of hard to squish a 21 1/2 - 22 inch neck!
:o That's almost as big as my waist.
:o But i know you'd give it your best shot.
Don't you know it! :P I might need a wrecking ball.
But i'm glad to know that you wouldn't really do that to me if ever given the chance. (sphew-wipes forehead).
Not so sure now that you told me how big it is. Heck I could do the highland fling on your neck and doubt it would make any difference. :-\
You know biblical history tells us that God ordered even women and children slaughtered at times in the Old Testament. And if I am wrong in my thinking, Jesus would lovingly tell me so.
I'm not asking you what was written in the bible and ascribed to God. I asked you how this jives with Christianity?
He would help me see my error,
So what we have here is not only an admission of wrong, ...but willful intent to do wrong, with no apparent desire to repent. What would Jesus say about that?
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Also the FBI arrested several Arab men because they bought too many cellphones a few months ago.
Talk about the Federal government overstepping its boundaries. This wont help win the war on terror, but only turn popular opinion against the United States.
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The executive branch (white house and prez) is the wild branch calling for all of this. Congress and the Judicial branch are fighting it. Problem is, the exec branch keeps finding creative ways to "just do it" in the name of nat'l security, and using the vague threat of "terrorism" to justify anything. Yes, there is terrorism. But no, we don't have to shit on constitution to fight it.
I agree!
that's 3 now. ;D
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The mental torture yes. Not the physical torture like ripping fingernails off.
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LOL!!! Jag, it's a good thing people can go back and read what I ACTUALLY SAID and not read your "media" version quotations. You'd make a wonderful journalist, my friend. You're a mess! >:( ;) :)
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I guess you forgot what happened to Nick Berg and Daniel Pearl and Paul Anderson????????????????
You mean the Nick Berg who dies in US custody in Abu Ghraib? ???
The very same Nick Berg whose corpse was mutilated on video by those in Abu Ghraib? ???
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I guess you forgot what happened to Nick Berg and Daniel Pearl and Paul Anderson????????????????
Your intellectual capacity is equal to that of a chimp's. The United States has to hold itself to a higher standard than the people who murdered Nick Berg.
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The mental torture yes. Not the physical torture like ripping fingernails off.
CIA agents in Gitmo have started taking out their own insurance policies to protect them should they be fired/prosecuted for their actions. They were attaching car batteries to the genitals of people in Gitmo and were scared of getting in trouble.
And that is what MSNBC reports. Imagine the non-sanitized version that the rest of the world is hearing.
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You mean the Nick Berg who dies in US custody in Abu Ghraib? ???
The very same Nick Berg whose corpse was mutilated on video by those in Abu Ghraib? ???
the only explanation for a statment like this is that the spirochetes are wreaking havoc in your brain.
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Dude... lol!! Check it out.
The UN says we're lying about Iran's nukes.
The leaders of many countries are saying we knew about 911, and many of them actually warned us.
We won't debate iran on the very points we're ready to bomb them over.
Half of the republicans and most of the Dems believe Bush's torture bill is insane.
So who is pushing the conspiracy now? All of a sudden, Bush is the leader of a very small faction, and majority of the world - and even his own nation - does not support these measures he wants.
240, I can understand your alarm and you make some good points.
My questions are:
1) Have you looked as closely at the reasons "the other side" presents to make their case as you have the reasons against it?
2) In keeping w/your conspiracy mindset, how do you determine who you can accept as being truthful and who is lying?
(I hope you enjoyed my Hedgehogic inquisition :) )
YIC
Stella
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240, I can understand your alarm and you make some good points.
My questions are:
1) Have you looked as closely at the reasons "the other side" presents to make their case as you have the reasons against it?
2) In keeping w/your conspiracy mindset, how do you determine who you can accept as being truthful and who is lying?
(I hope you enjoyed my Hedgehogic inquisition :) )
Dag, Stella!!! You beat me to it. >:( :)
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Look how well torture worked on Kotb, and previous other Islamists, ...turned them real radical didn't it?
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240, I can understand your alarm and you make some good points.
My questions are:
1) Have you looked as closely at the reasons "the other side" presents to make their case as you have the reasons against it?
2) In keeping w/your conspiracy mindset, how do you determine who you can accept as being truthful and who is lying?
Brilliant :)
I know there are conflicts of interest in the UN, of course. But they said no WMD in iraq, and after everything is over, they were right. Now they say no nukes in Iran, and whther they are correct or incorrect, Iran hasn't attacked us.
Every nation in the world is involved in an info war. In England for example, the citizens never saw that there were mock bombing drills in all 4 locations that exact morning, that exact time (a major sign of a state terror attack). People hadn't even reazlied what happened, and there were 30 men in bomb gear on the scene doing their job. In all 4 places.
I know that all countries lie, so I look at the evidence. Iran says we did 911 with bombs. US said alQ did it with planes. Who should I believe? I use my mind and eyes, and realize that the US refuses to test the debris for bomb residue, even tho the collapse was a lot more like an explosion than a collape.
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240, I can understand your alarm and you make some good points.
My questions are:
1) Have you looked as closely at the reasons "the other side" presents to make their case as you have the reasons against it?
2) In keeping w/your conspiracy mindset, how do you determine who you can accept as being truthful and who is lying?
(I hope you enjoyed my Hedgehogic inquisition :) )
YIC
Stella
why, oh why would you encourage him?
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Brilliant :)
I know there are conflicts of interest in the UN, of course. But they said no WMD in iraq, and after everything is over, they were right. Now they say no nukes in Iran, and whther they are correct or incorrect, Iran hasn't attacked us.
Every nation in the world is involved in an info war. In England for example, the citizens never saw that there were mock bombing drills in all 4 locations that exact morning, that exact time (a major sign of a state terror attack). People hadn't even reazlied what happened, and there were 30 men in bomb gear on the scene doing their job. In all 4 places.
I know that all countries lie, so I look at the evidence. Iran says we did 911 with bombs. US said alQ did it with planes. Who should I believe? I use my mind and eyes, and realize that the US refuses to test the debris for bomb residue, even tho the collapse was a lot more like an explosion than a collape.
You are joking about this picture aren't you? You mean a building falling down on itself doesn't create energy to fling things outward? HMMMMMM
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You are joking about this picture aren't you? You mean a building falling down on itself doesn't create energy to fling things outward? HMMMMMM
There could be explosions from gas or steam pipes too I would think. I also think that buildings going down like these towers did is unchartered territory. Theories are fine but who actually can say for certain the characteristics of buildings this big coming down?
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There could be explosions from gas or steam pipes too I would think. I also think that buildings going down like these towers did is unchartered territory. Theories are fine but who actually can say for certain the characteristics of buildings this big coming down?
According to 240 he can say for certain how a building this big is supposed to fall down after it's been hit by a passenger plane full of fuel.
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Again.....we're not fighting a military....for Christs sake, they decapitate people!!
Totally beside the point. The concern over US torture is not about our conflict with THIS particular enemy. It is about the lives of our current and future soldiers, about us setting the example of reconfiguring our adherence to Geneva’s conventions when it suits our own ends. Once the US does that it will give a green light to any other country that wants to do that in the future. It is then that American service men will pay the price.
McCain and Powell know that because they are invested in the lives of servicemen--because they were those servicmen. Bush and Cheney don’t think in those terms because they couldn’t care less about the lives of servicemen they do not know, will never meet, and regard as disposable.
This is yet another example of Bush/Cheney, in their infinite wisdom, ignoring the counsel of experienced military generals (Powell) and in McCain’s case, a POW! Once gain, if they go forward with their folly, American servicemen will pay the price with their lives. :'(
On second thought, who cares? There are plenty more drone soldiers where they came from... right? ::)
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Totally beside the point. The concern over US torture is not about our conflict with THIS particular enemy. It is about the lives of our current and future soldiers, about us setting the example of reconfiguring our adherence to Geneva’s conventions when it suits our own ends. Once the US does that it will give a green light to any other country that wants to do that in the future. It is then that American service men will pay the price.
McCain and Powell know that because they are invested in the lives of servicemen--because they were those servicmen. Bush and Cheney don’t think in those terms because they couldn’t care less about the lives of servicemen they do not know, will never meet, and regard as disposable.
good 1st para
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1. Do you support the use of torture by the US Govt, used against people we catch overseas, to get info which is important for national security?
2. Do you support the use of torture by other nations, used against US military/intel officers captured overseas, when these countries feel it is important for their nat'l security?
I will pretend that the question was concerning Swedish Govt and Swedish officers, since the question is really about if you believe that the laws of war should be followed by all parties, even your own.. ;)
1. No.
2. No.
YIP
Zack
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According to 240 he can say for certain how a building this big is supposed to fall down after it's been hit by a passenger plane full of fuel.
the fuel was all burned up in a few minutes. your official report says that. You had less than 20 corrupted floors and 2 small fires on the South Tower. Yet it ejects steel beam, up and OUT, 500 feet huh?
jeez, I can't believe your mind won't allow the possibility that explosives MAY have been used, and therefore testing some of the materials for residue would be a good idea.
Do you not WANT it to be explosives? Would that make you uncomfortable? You have a physics professor who has tested a piece, finding explosives and taking it to the FBI.
They refuse to test any of the building for explosive residue. They don't want it to be explosives either ;)
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I haven't followed the conspiracy threads and not to take this thread too far off course, but this pic doesn't help me to think that there were explosives.... not that I'm a demolitions expert but it seems as though the area being pointed to would be more "rounded outwardly" and not so vertical if there had been explosives at that point?
Please, continue w/the torture talk now