Poll: Do you support torture?

[Dos Equis]

Gen. Conv. Common Article 3 provides that all detainees, whether prisoners of war, civilians or so-called unlawful combatants, are legally entitled to humane treatment in all circumstances. They may not be subject to “cruel treatment and torture” or “outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment.”

According what I just read, Article 3 does not mention "unlawful combatants" or terrorists:

"Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria."

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

[OzmO]

If these non-citizens are killing Americans?  YES   And, OzmO, you KNOW that there us much more than what you would like to make this out to be. 
Our means of torture (ala the Red Hot Chili Peppers or stripping them down naked) is not the same kind of torture that you are trying to equate with that of these religious fanatics (whom on another thread you seem to agree upon their violent tactics).  It's not a matter of convenience. Let me ask you then, if we know why the US is using "torture" tactics, why are the Taliban, Al Quada, other Islamic fascists torturing US citizens?  What are they gaining out of it?   

let's compare the torture tactics

Red Hot Chili Peppers music and sleep deprivation vs....hmmmm, let's see.... MURDER (videotaped beheadings)

I don't see a likeness. 

Ok, there is no way anyone who is involved in torture on the USA's side is going to tell what they really do.  That would be bad politics, bad public relations, and bad security.  So these "moderate" torture tactics are only on the surface and only a part of what they are willing to do to get information.

Addiitonally,  read my first response to this,  I don't believe in general purpose toture as a way of fishing for information.  However i do believe in torture for specific reasons to save lives from an impending attack.   And i believe it's justifiable on both sides.

[Mr. Intenseone]

1.  Do you support the use of torture by the US Govt, used against people we catch overseas, to get info which is important for national security?

2.  Do you support the use of torture by other nations, used against US military/intel officers captured overseas, when these countries feel it is important for their nat'l security?

Yes and Yes, we're not fighting a military and were not fighting anyone that certainly doesn't follow the rules of the Geneva Convention or any rules for that matter...shouldn't even be an issue!

[Colossus_500]

Ok, there is no way anyone who is involved in torture on the USA's side is going to tell what they really do.  That would be bad politics, bad public relations, and bad security.  So these "moderate" torture tactics are only on the surface and only a part of what they are willing to do to get information.

Addiitonally,  read my first response to this,  I don't believe in general purpose toture as a way of fishing for information.  However i do believe in torture for specific reasons to save lives from an impending attack.   And i believe it's justifiable on both sides.

Let's be honest, bro.  This stuff has been going on for YEARS.  I'm certain we've murdered people for information too.  It would be asinine to think that our country has not done this.  

At the end of the day, is this something we need to be arguing over?  I eat chicken, beef, or turkey and enjoy the taste, but were I to delve into how the vendors handle this type of food is not something I need to know.  And were I to research how, I'm almost certain I'd find some inhumane measures that I would not agree with.  And so it is with military tactics...I like knowing that my family can sleep safely.  But I know I might find some troubling thoughts were I to know what has to take place in order for me to sleep at night.  

I know it's a strange analogy, but it's the best I can think of at the moment.  

[240 is Back]

If these non-citizens are killing Americans?  YES   And, OzmO, you KNOW that there us much more than what you would like to make this out to be. 
Our means of torture (ala the Red Hot Chili Peppers or stripping them down naked) is not the same kind of torture that you are trying to equate with that of these religious fanatics (whom on another thread you seem to agree upon their violent tactics).  It's not a matter of convenience. Let me ask you then, if we know why the US is using "torture" tactics, why are the Taliban, Al Quada, other Islamic fascists torturing US citizens?  What are they gaining out of it?   

let's compare the torture tactics

Red Hot Chili Peppers music and sleep deprivation vs....hmmmm, let's see.... MURDER (videotaped beheadings)

I don't see a likeness. 

Dude, woah - we are allowed to hurt their children in order to get info from them.  We are allowed to starve their wives and family to get them to tlak.  Did you know that?  The music made it on the news, but the tools we want to employ include hot/cold, mock executions, mock drownings, and family member manipulation.  What if even once, they get the wrong guy, and he has to sit in a cage watching his wife getting beaten or his children starving?

For fucks sake, man.  You ever think this shit thru?  You have kids?  You ever want to see some asshole guard undressing your daughter so that you will give up info?  

what a fucking disgusting thing this is.

[240 is Back]

According what I just read, Article 3 does not mention "unlawful combatants" or terrorists:

The taliban ruled afghanistan in 2001.  hell, the US negotiated with them for oil pipeline rights.  We recognized them as a state when it came to doing business.  then, suddenly we go to war, and they are classified as a terror group and not a legit govt. 

The group doing the torture should not get to choose who is and isn't tortureable.  jose Padilla is still getting tortured and still doesn't have a lawyer, 5 years later, and he is an american citizen caught on american soil.   yes, the newspaper tells us he's evil and had plans to commit a terror act. So why isn't he on trial? why no lawyer, no defense, and no sentence?  He's just locked up indefinitely.

it could happen to any of us. 

[24KT]

240 you know what's going on here don't you?
Sheeple have simply turned a blind eye and refused to confront the reality of the situation.

I wonder what Jesus would do, or say about this, ...or for that matter say to Colossus about his attitude?  

[240 is Back]

240 you know what's going on here don't you?
Sheeple have simply turned a blind eye and refused to confront the reality of the situation.

I wonder what Jesus would do, or say about this, ...or for that matter say to Colossus about his attitude?  

I don't get it.  I'm a seriously conservative guy.  But right now, the constitution is in danger.


FACT:  The govt can choose anyone in this country it wants, decide "This man is an unlawful compatitant" and you can be tortured ny the CIA for the rest of your life.  There are ZERO safeguards in place.

I don't give a damn what party you are - there are hordes of repubs scared shitless by this too.    You guys aren't seeing, this is a two-pronged attack.  First they get permission to torture people who are considered terrorists.  Then, they use their civil powers IN the usa to label anyone they choose, as a terrorist. 

All i can say is, someday you're going to be kicking youself for being so blind to the facts.  I have been a diehard repub my whole life, and it's hard to face this, but it's the truth.  ANYTHING we authorize our govt to do overseas can be used on ANYONE inside our own borders without the FBI giving evidence to any check/balance body.  ANYONE can be held indefinitely for secret evidence.

[Al-Gebra]

But right now, the constitution is in danger.

why don't you confine your posts to things you actually know something about? naw . . . never mind, you'd probably only have 20 posts then.

[24KT]

240, Now you're beginning to understand just ONE of the many reasons I detest Bush and his cabal.

What's so shocking is how many Americans can't see this... right infront of their very eyes!

When are they going to WAKE UP?!

[240 is Back]

why don't you confine your posts to things you actually know something about? naw . . . never mind, you'd probably only have 20 posts then.

You seriously don't believe the constitution is in danger, Algebra?

[Colossus_500]

Dude, woah - we are allowed to hurt their children in order to get info from them.  We are allowed to starve their wives and family to get them to tlak.  Did you know that?  The music made it on the news, but the tools we want to employ include hot/cold, mock executions, mock drownings, and family member manipulation.  What if even once, they get the wrong guy, and he has to sit in a cage watching his wife getting beaten or his children starving?

For fucks sake, man.  You ever think this shit thru?  You have kids?  You ever want to see some asshole guard undressing your daughter so that you will give up info?  

what a fucking disgusting thing this is.

In a world waged with war, these things happen, 240?  The constitution is in "danger" because you NOW know that we torture people?    Would you agree that we've tortured and killed people for information before the time in which we live?  If you do, why wasn't the constitution in "danger" then?  Quit being so dramatic, bro.  

[OzmO]

Let's be honest, bro.  This stuff has been going on for YEARS.  I'm certain we've murdered people for information too.  It would be asinine to think that our country has not done this. 

At the end of the day, is this something we need to be arguing over?  I eat chicken, beef, or turkey and enjoy the taste, but were I to delve into how the vendors handle this type of food is not something I need to know.  And were I to research how, I'm almost certain I'd find some inhumane measures that I would not agree with.  And so it is with military tactics...I like knowing that my family can sleep safely.  But I know I might find some troubling thoughts were I to know what has to take place in order for me to sleep at night. 

I know it's a strange analogy, but it's the best I can think of at the moment. 

It was actually a great analogy.  Chickens get stuck into very small cages with other chickens where they live there enitire lives.  The cage is so small it's like living in an elevator with 9 other people all your life.  the floor is part of the cage and there talons often grow in way that doesn't allow them to pick up their feet very well if they wanted to move.  The Cages are in a room where the light and dark are simulated and put on a shorter cycle to get them to lay eggs faster and grow faster.  The last 3 days or so before they are killed to make the breast meat their food is shut off becuase someone figured out that feeding them those last 3 days won't change the size fo their breats either way.


But other than that, the only problem i have with people's opinion on torture is that what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander.

Hey if you are going to do it then you shouldn't have a moral problem of them doing it to you.


AND if we legally authorize torture in this country that WILL be a huge step backwards towards more restrictions of basic human rights.

I am 100,000 percent against it.

[Colossus_500]

240 you know what's going on here don't you?
Sheeple have simply turned a blind eye and refused to confront the reality of the situation.

I wonder what Jesus would do, or say about this, ...or for that matter say to Colossus about his attitude?  

He wouldn't "step on my neck", I know that much.  

[Al-Gebra]

You seriously don't believe the constitution is in danger, Algebra?

which part of my post was unclear?  I think the constitution is now stronger than it's been in a long time . . .

[240 is Back]

What's so shocking is how many Americans can't see this... right infront of their very eyes!

Dude... lol!!  Check it out.

The UN says we're lying about Iran's nukes.
The leaders of many countries are saying we knew about 911, and many of them actually warned us.
We won't debate iran on the very points we're ready to bomb them over.
Half of the republicans and most of the Dems believe Bush's torture bill is insane.

So who is pushing the conspiracy now?  All of a sudden, Bush is the leader of a very small faction, and majority of the world - and even his own nation - does not support these measures he wants.

[BayGBM]

I can’t imagine that anyone with a son or daughter in the military would be in support US torture.  To do so would be to give a green light to your own child being tortured in any future conflict with any future enemy.  

Of course, Bush and Cheney never saw combat and don’t have any children in the military.  Coincidence?  No.  

[240 is Back]

which part of my post was unclear?  I think the constitution is now stronger than it's been in a long time . . .

 

[meltdown]Stupiest statement in this history of mankind.  You are a dumb fuck.   Dumb fuck, ya get that?   Warrantless wiretaps.  No-inform searches.  Patriot Act.  And the constitution is STRONGER?  Jesus oh jesus... why are people this fucking dumb?[/meltdown]

[24KT]

He wouldn't "step on my neck", I know that much.  

I wouldn't step on your neck either, ...you're way too big for that (doesn't mean I wouldn't want to, and doesn't mean I don't fantasize about it)  

...but seriously, what do you think Jesus would say about your attitude?

Is it keeping with his teachings, ...or would he say Satan is creeping into your heart? seriously? WWJD?

[OzmO]

Dude... lol!!  Check it out.

The UN says we're lying about Iran's nukes.
The leaders of many countries are saying we knew about 911, and many of them actually warned us.
We won't debate iran on the very points we're ready to bomb them over.
Half of the republicans and most of the Dems believe Bush's torture bill is insane.

So who is pushing the conspiracy now?  All of a sudden, Bush is the leader of a very small faction, and majority of the world - and even his own nation - does not support these measures he wants.

Well i'd say that's good news!   

[Mr. Intenseone]

I can’t imagine that anyone with a son or daughter in the military would be in support US torture.  To do so would be to give a green light to your own child being tortured in any future conflict with any future enemy.  

Of course, Bush and Cheney never saw combat and don’t have any children in the military.  Coincidence?  No.  

Again.....we're not fighting a military....for Christs sake, they decapitate people!!

[Colossus_500]

It was actually a great analogy. 

Thanks,  and I see your points as well.

But other than that, the only problem i have with people's opinion on torture is that what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander.

Hey if you are going to do it then you shouldn't have a moral problem of them doing it to you.

Then you have to be saddened at the thought of times in biblical history where God ordered every man, woman, AND child murdered during war.  And no, I'm not equating America with God, but I say this because things happen that we don't necessarily agree with.  That's what I brought up the chicken analogy.

AND if we legally authorize torture in this country that WILL be a huge step backwards towards more restrictions of basic human rights.

I am 100,000 percent against it.

Can we agree to disagree?

[24KT]

Can we agree to disagree?

That's only an option for reasonable people. Guys who think like you usually demand myway or the highway,
...or torture. 

WWJD?

[240 is Back]

Again.....we're not fighting a military....for Christs sake, they decapitate people!!

I agree they're pricks, Mr I.

The problem here is that Bush has the power to use these powers against US citizens too.

All he has to do is get infom from any source that John Doe of Anytown, USA might be planning a terror attack.  John Doe can be classified as a terrorist, and he no longer gets a lawyer, he can be tortured, and he sits in a cell as long as they wish.

Do you see any potential for abuse here?  Shit, what if jag got pissed at you and called the FBI and said that Mr I of Anytown USA might be planning an attack.  Suddenly you could very easily find yourself in a cell, classified as a potential enemy combatant, with no quarter to call a lawyer, and a nice lineup of torture techniques waiting for you.

See how this could be abused?

[Al-Gebra]

[meltdown]Stupiest statement in this history of mankind.  You are a dumb f**k.   Dumb f**k, ya get that?   Warrantless wiretaps.  No-inform searches.  Patriot Act.  And the constitution is STRONGER?  Jesus oh jesus... why are people this fucking dumb?[/meltdown]

pull your head out of your ass once in a while and let it breathe.

how many of the issues you bring up are being debated in congress and by the supreme ct? they're doing their job, acting as checks and balances on the president's power.

use your head to think, instead of using it as a butt plug. i know it's very difficult for you, but do try for the rest of us.