Getbig Bodybuilding, Figure and Fitness Forums
Getbig Bodybuilding Boards => Steroids Info & Hardcore => Topic started by: ASJChaotic on September 27, 2008, 05:43:14 PM
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Ok as far as I know Insulin is a hormone that takes sugar (carbs) from blood and stores them, in muscle and or in fat cells
now why do bodybuilders take it?
could they just not eat more carbs to have more insulin?
can someone explain this? ???
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To pile drive nutrients into their muscles. Glucose and amino acids will only signal your pancreas to send out so much insulin. When you inject exogenous insulin you'll stimulate a heck of a lot more glycogen formation than you would by simply consuming a lot of sugar. There are lots of risks however.
It can be used in a simple enough fashion and safely enough, but I feel that anyone who uses insulin needs to have a vast knowledge base regarding this hormone. You should be able to sputter insulin information at the drop of a hat and be able to elaborate on exactly what's affected, how it's affected, etc. It's nothing people should read about on a forum, follow a little template/tutorial and hope for the best. While it's a relatively simple enough concept to understand, you may accidentally load up the wrong amount of insulin and you can go into a diabetic coma. Wouldn't that be a shitty way to die?
In a nutshell it's my understanding that it forces glucose and nutrients into the muscle (as well as fat cells, so be careful), it increases glycogen formation, prevents muscle breakdown, it's highly anabolic due to it's osmotic actions in the body (when a supraphysiological level is reached - sugar won't do shit) and provides a small cascade of other anabolic triggers... but it won't particularly prefer storing nutrients in muscle vs fat. It'll go to both. I would only take it post workout because of fears for putting on fat. I would only recommend using it in the morning if you're also taking HGH and T3. For some people it can be more anabolic in fat than muscle, at least from what I've seen... either that, or the people I know who've tried it must have a very shitty diet.
Anyone, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I just got back from the gym and I'm pretty close to being brain dead. Oh yeah, and I know you're probably just curious about it. But if you're considering using insulin then the take home message is that it's very dicey business. Unless you're taking AAS, and other hormones/peptides like T3 and HGH then I would not recommend using insulin. You don't want to fuck up your insulin sensitivity and end up with TYPE II DIABEETUS.
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u37/libreg/diabeetus_cat.jpg)
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To pile drive nutrients into their muscles. Glucose and amino acids will only signal your pancreas to send out so much insulin. When you inject exogenous insulin you'll stimulate a heck of a lot more glycogen formation than you would by simply consuming a lot of sugar. There are lots of risks however.
It can be used in a simple enough fashion and safely enough, but I feel that anyone who uses insulin needs to have a vast knowledge base regarding this hormone. You should be able to sputter insulin information at the drop of a hat and be able to elaborate on exactly what's affected, how it's affected, etc. It's nothing people should read about on a forum, follow a little template/tutorial and hope for the best. While it's a relatively simple enough concept to understand, you may accidentally load up the wrong amount of insulin and you can go into a diabetic coma. Wouldn't that be a shitty way to die?
In a nutshell it's my understanding that it forces glucose and nutrients into the muscle (as well as fat cells, so be careful), it increases glycogen formation, prevents muscle breakdown, it's highly anabolic due to it's osmotic actions in the body (when a supraphysiological level is reached - sugar won't do shit) and provides a small cascade of other anabolic triggers... but it won't particularly prefer storing nutrients in muscle vs fat. It'll go to both. I would only take it post workout because of fears for putting on fat. I would only recommend using it in the morning if you're also taking HGH and T3. For some people it can be more anabolic in fat than muscle, at least from what I've seen... either that, or the people I know who've tried it must have a very shitty diet.
Anyone, please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I just got back from the gym and I'm pretty close to being brain dead. Oh yeah, and I know you're probably just curious about it. But if you're considering using insulin then the take home message is that it's very dicey business. Unless you're taking AAS, and other hormones/peptides like T3 and HGH then I would not recommend using insulin. You don't want to fuck up your insulin sensitivity and end up with TYPE II DIABEETUS.
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u37/libreg/diabeetus_cat.jpg)
no way I'd ever use it lol, or any other kind of steroids or hormones, I'll stay natural forever
I was just wondering what everybody was talking about
how it thickens the skin, gives huge guts to bodybuilders, etc
ya, nice info thanks
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it's highly anabolic due to it's osmotic actions in the body
What exactly do you mean by this?
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no way I'd ever use it lol, or any other kind of steroids or hormones, I'll stay natural forever
I was just wondering what everybody was talking about
how it thickens the skin, gives huge guts to bodybuilders, etc
ya, nice info thanks
Do not believe the hype.
The godfather of insulin, the man who brought it into bodybuilding, the man who came up with the innovative 10-15g carb per 1 iu, Milos Sarcev, his abdomen is small, tigh,t and can probably still do a vaccum. Milos uses insulin twice a day and 5 times a week in his bulking protocal. :)
Insulin completely halts protein breakdown. It is highly ANTI CATABOLIC. And it is mildy anabolic though other smaller mechanisms, as Dustin pointed out.
You use it because steroids are highly ANABOLIC, but only mildy anti catabolic.For greatest possible growth, you want to be highly anti catabolic and highly anabolic at the same time. And the combination of steroids and insulin does just that.
Insulin should not make you fat if your using it responsibly, keeeping your fat intake minimal, and your using it post workout only with either the type R or humalog (The two quickest acting forms).
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One journal article a few years back looked at a bodybuilder who experienced permanent brain damage due to using insulin incorrectly.
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One journal article a few years back looked at a bodybuilder who experienced permanent brain damage due to using insulin incorrectly.
If you can find it, please post it.
Do you remember what happened exactly?
Never heard of anything other then hypoglycemia+becoming insulin resistant.
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Ahh, sort of ironic but my blood sugar dropped hardcore after my workout. Consumed my carbs, drank only half my protein shake and went to pick up some pho (Vietnamese noodles) and when I hit the restaurant I got dizzy and started shaking badly. Ate a chocolate bar on the way home, then had to stop at another gas station to get another. Was almost going to slam a cola but I realized I just needed the sugar from the bars to hit me otherwise I'd probably do more bad than good.
I can only imagine how scary it'd be if that was from injecting insulin. Sometimes you'll inject slin, consume the same amount of carbs you always do in proportion to the injection but still have a fucked up BSL.. I've heard some scary horror stories. I didn't inject slin, nor have I ever. But it was strange. Just getting over a cold but strong enough to hit the gym. Scary stuff. Felt like I was drunk... my younger bro almost had to drive me home but there was mad cops out tonight so I just drove slow on the back roads.
Shittiest part was that by the time I got home and made my pho, I wasn't even that hungry anymore. Only ate a little bit and fell asleep on the couch from the sugar crash. FUCK! :-\
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One journal article a few years back looked at a bodybuilder who experienced permanent brain damage due to using insulin incorrectly.
Candidribble PIP :'(
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One journal article a few years back looked at a bodybuilder who experienced permanent brain damage due to using insulin incorrectly.
He propably went to diabetic coma and that's what caused this brain damage. He must have simply taken too much Insulin or not enough carbs...
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Candidribble PIP :'(
;D
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no way I'd ever use it lol, or any other kind of steroids or hormones, I'll stay natural forever
I was just wondering what everybody was talking about
how it thickens the skin, gives huge guts to bodybuilders, etc
ya, nice info thanks
You'll never look like a steroid bodybuilder without steroids. It's funny to see someone like you say that. But once they train naturally for years on end and realize everyone around them is on drugs and they'll never look like that without em......... you either realize you've been training in vain or you'll cross over to the dark side. That's the way it is nowadays. Welcome to the 21st century. Or if you're an African you can look at a weight and grow big muscles. LOL.
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Do not believe the hype.
The godfather of insulin, the man who brought it into bodybuilding, the man who came up with the innovative 10-15g carb per 1 iu, Milos Sarcev, his abdomen is small, tigh,t and can probably still do a vaccum. Milos uses insulin twice a day and 5 times a week in his bulking protocal. :)
Insulin completely halts protein breakdown. It is highly ANTI CATABOLIC. And it is mildy anabolic though other smaller mechanisms, as Dustin pointed out.
You use it because steroids are highly ANABOLIC, but only mildy anti catabolic.For greatest possible growth, you want to be highly anti catabolic and highly anabolic at the same time. And the combination of steroids and insulin does just that.
Insulin should not make you fat if your using it responsibly, keeeping your fat intake minimal, and your using it post workout only with either the type R or humalog (The two quickest acting forms).
Bingo
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You'll never look like a steroid bodybuilder without steroids. It's funny to see someone like you say that. But once they train naturally for years on end and realize everyone around them is on drugs and they'll never look like that without em......... you either realize you've been training in vain or you'll cross over to the dark side. That's the way it is nowadays. Welcome to the 21st century. Or if you're an African you can look at a weight and grow big muscles. LOL.
where did I say I wanted to look like a steroid bodybuilder?
Hope that helps ;)
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He propably went to diabetic coma and that's what caused this brain damage. He must have simply taken too much Insulin or not enough carbs...
Luolamies, I'm sorry, but you have it wrong. This is a commonly confused term in diabetes.
A Diabetic Coma is a coma that develops in severe and inadequately treated cases of diabetes mellitus. It is also called Kussmaul's coma and is associated with Diabetic Ketoacidosis. You typically see this in Type I or other insulin using diabetics who for some reason are not taking enough insulin (by choice, by dietary indescretion, by illness, etc).
In the case of this bodybuilder, he did what I've been harping on for the last couple of years about nondiabetics taking insulin---he took too much and fried his brain because of lack of glucose to provide the fuel the brain needs to survive. I know diabetics who have permenant brain damage from hypoglycemia. There is no reason to think that a bodybuilder has any special means of protection against the effects of an insulin overdose.
These two papers are probably two of the most recent reports (at least two that I know of) of severe brain damage from hypoglycemia (and admittantly the focus of the second paper is loss of cognitive function,not brain damage---but brain damage is discussed):
Kim JH, Koh SB. Extensive white matter injury in hypoglycemic coma.Neurology. 2007. 68(13):1074.
abstract not available
Warren RE, Frier BM. Hypoglycaemia and cognitive function. Diabetes Obes Metab. 2005. 7(5):493-503.
Acute hypoglycaemia impairs cerebral function, and available data indicate that cognitive performance becomes impaired at a blood glucose level of 2.6-3.0 mmol/l in healthy subjects. Methodological problems limit comparisons between studies, but in general complex tasks are more sensitive to hypoglycaemia than simple tasks, and some cognitive abilities are completely abolished. The onset of hypoglycaemic cognitive dysfunction is immediate, but recovery may be considerably delayed. There is persuasive evidence of adaptation to hypoglycaemia, partly due to increased brain glucose uptake capacity, although other mechanisms may exist. Patients who are exposed to chronic or recurrent hypoglycaemia become remarkably tolerant to the state, but this is insufficient to prevent severe hypoglycaemia with neuroglycopenic decompensation, probably because symptomatic and counterregulatory responses adapt even more. During experimental hypoglycaemia, administration of non-glucose cerebral fuels preserves cognitive function. However, little progress has been made as yet towards protecting cognitive function during hypoglycaemia in clinical practice. The chronic effects of recurrent hypoglycaemia remain contentious. There are numerous case reports of hypoglycaemic brain damage and of cognitive deterioration attributed to repeated severe hypoglycaemia. The major prospective studies, including the Diabetes Control and Complications Trial, did not report cognitive declines in intensively treated patients, but had unrepresentative study populations and may have been too short to detect such effects. Structural and functional brain changes are not only associated with recurrent severe hypoglycaemia, but also with hyperglycaemia and early disease onset and may in part be due to hyperglycaemic microvascular disease. Children may be more prone to acute metabolic insults, and there is evidence of developmental disadvantage associated with hypoglycaemic episodes.
I'm interested in this paper detailing a bodybuilder with brain damage after taking insulin. If someone finds a link to that paper please post it. Thank you.
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It actually turned out to be a letter, anyway as requested:
"We have recently been involved in
the care of a 21 year old amateur
bodybuilder, who was admitted after taking
an excessive amount of insulin intrave
nously. He developed severe brain damage
after prolonged neuroglycopenia. His case
brought several points to our attention.
Since anabolic steroids have been desig
nated illegal in competitive sport, athletes
have been looking for alternative drugs to
help them put on muscle mass and burn off
fat. With little understanding of the poten
tially serious side effects, they are now using
preparations that have no proved benefit in
sports training.
After reading several bodybuilding
magazines and scanning numerous internet
web sites we have realised that the extent of
misuse is considerable and growing...
...It is worrying
that a drug such as insulin is being
described as “the most powerful anabolic
hormone on the planet”3 to a readership
that can be obsessive and often has a poor
body image.4"
Elkin SL, Brady S, Williams JP. Bodybuilders find it easy to obtain insulin to help them in training.
BMJ 1997;314:1280
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=212660:5
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But if you're considering using insulin then the take home message is that it's very dicey business. Unless you're taking AAS, and other hormones/peptides like T3 and HGH then I would not recommend using insulin. You don't want to fuck up your insulin sensitivity and end up with TYPE II DIABEETUS.
I don't agree with using insulin to mimick the body's response because you may just end up inducing Type 2 or death if you don't get sugars fast enough.
You really have to ask yourself if the risk/reward favors it......
Honestly, unless your an IFBB pro who isn't worried about longterm health anyway, I don't see why you'd do it.
DIV
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I don't agree with using insulin to mimick the body's response because you may just end up inducing Type 2 or death if you don't get sugars fast enough.
You really have to ask yourself if the risk/reward favors it......
Honestly, unless your an IFBB pro who isn't worried about longterm health anyway, I don't see why you'd do it.
DIV
Yeah. Like I said, the dosing protocol may sound simple enough but I believe people should be EXPERTS on the subject before even considering it. That's the only challenge with extremely accessible communication mediums. They're so faceless and accessible to anyone. The wrong person can skim over a thread like this, decide to walk into a pharmacy because he heard he should try taking xx ius of slin post workout and xx amount of carbs per iu, and think he'll be all good as long as he's got a chocolate bar or pack of glucose tabs.
What happens when someone accidentally mixes up the lines and ticks on a slin pin though?? I recall some bonehead pinning like 40-70ius of slin accidentally!!!! And it was on this forum. I don't know if it was a troll or not, but Jesus that is scary. Could have slipped into a coma and got brain damage, or DIED. Such a simple blunder can result in death. At least with gear, if someone bombed back some test they'd just get off easy and develop a set of bitch titties before anything hazardous happened. With slin, you can die. :-X
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Yeah. Like I said, the dosing protocol may sound simple enough but I believe people should be EXPERTS on the subject before even considering it. That's the only challenge with extremely accessible communication mediums. They're so faceless and accessible to anyone. The wrong person can skim over a thread like this, decide to walk into a pharmacy because he heard he should try taking xx ius of slin post workout and xx amount of carbs per iu, and think he'll be all good as long as he's got a chocolate bar or pack of glucose tabs.
What happens when someone accidentally mixes up the lines and ticks on a slin pin though?? I recall some bonehead pinning like 40-70ius of slin accidentally!!!! And it was on this forum. I don't know if it was a troll or not, but Jesus that is scary. Could have slipped into a coma and got brain damage, or DIED. Such a simple blunder can result in death. At least with gear, if someone bombed back some test they'd just get off easy and develop a set of bitch titties before anything hazardous happened. With slin, you can die. :-X
You have to realize the audience we have here and on Bodybuilding forums in general.
The age range and level of life experience tends to favor impulsive, irrational decision-making which doesn't mix well with drugs like Insulin.
I'd rationalize that genetic predisposition and bodytype play a huge role in what the optimal dosage would be for anabolic insulin use.
Still, though, unless you had a doctor there to monitor this and give his own observations/recommendations......I don't see it.
DIV
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According to Milos you are probably more likely to become insulin resistant and/or diabetic from consuming 100g simple carbs post workout on a daily basis WITHOUT exogenous insulin than you are by using insulin. by using exogenous insulin your releaving all that stress of the pancrease, which in a normal situation would have to release a HUGE (totally inhuman amount) amount of insulin in response to all that simple carbohydrate.
It is dangerous and shouldnt be taken lightly...BUT..consider the fact that by using a moderate amunt of insulin along with low dose AAS you can achieve the same kind of growth, or even better growth, as you would from mega dosing anabolics alone.
Probably a better idea to combine moderate amounts of slin and AAS than to mega dose AAS.
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According to Milos you are probably more likely to become insulin resistant and/or diabetic from consuming 100g simple carbs post workout on a daily basis WITHOUT exogenous insulin than you are by using insulin. by using exogenous insulin your releaving all that stress of the pancrease, which in a normal situation would have to release a HUGE (totally inhuman amount) amount of insulin in response to all that simple carbohydrate.
It is dangerous and shouldnt be taken lightly...BUT..consider the fact that by using a moderate amunt of insulin along with low dose AAS you can achieve the same kind of growth, or even better growth, as you would from mega dosing anabolics alone.
Probably a better idea to combine moderate amounts of slin and AAS than to mega dose AAS.
The it concerns me that you have with all of the "insulin gurus" in that insulin is only half of a very complex hormonal group with the ultimate goal of maintaining blood glucose levels within the body. The focus is insulin, insulin, insulin because the hormone does have anabolic properties--or probably its better said it is a hormone that when present in physioligic levels will facilitate the development of an anabolic environment.
The problem is no one talks about the negative effects (this includes catabolic effects) that could come about from the counter regulatory hormones the body will release in response to excessive insulin or hypoglycemia---or worse yet what happens when someone overdoses. Its nothing to be taken lightly in any way.
You want to know what I think the best approach is? Pay attention to your body, eat right, get into the gym and bust your ass, then get out and give your body a chance to recover. Every person on this planet will see gains if they do those 4 simple things. All of the drugs in the world won't make even a regional champion if a person is eating for shit, isn't training, and isn't giving their body a chance to recover or they aren't listening to their body when its telling them it needs a break or can push a bit harder. I'm willing to say 95% of the people I see in any of the gyms I routinely go through do not do those 4 basic things.
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According to Milos you are probably more likely to become insulin resistant and/or diabetic from consuming 100g simple carbs post workout on a daily basis WITHOUT exogenous insulin than you are by using insulin. by using exogenous insulin your releaving all that stress of the pancrease, which in a normal situation would have to release a HUGE (totally inhuman amount) amount of insulin in response to all that simple carbohydrate.
It is dangerous and shouldnt be taken lightly...BUT..consider the fact that by using a moderate amunt of insulin along with low dose AAS you can achieve the same kind of growth, or even better growth, as you would from mega dosing anabolics alone.
Probably a better idea to combine moderate amounts of slin and AAS than to mega dose AAS.
Milos Sarcev?
Eh........nothing personal but I'll take my chances with my own personal experiences over what Milos says.
I think Milos needs to focus on not getting his ass arrested for importing fake GH kits...... ;D
The it concerns me that you have with all of the "insulin gurus" in that insulin is only half of a very complex hormonal group with the ultimate goal of maintaining blood glucose levels within the body. The focus is insulin, insulin, insulin because the hormone does have anabolic properties--or probably its better said it is a hormone that when present in physioligic levels will facilitate the development of an anabolic environment.
The problem is no one talks about the negative effects (this includes catabolic effects) that could come about from the counter regulatory hormones the body will release in response to excessive insulin or hypoglycemia---or worse yet what happens when someone overdoses. Its nothing to be taken lightly in any way.
You want to know what I think the best approach is? Pay attention to your body, eat right, get into the gym and bust your ass, then get out and give your body a chance to recover. Every person on this planet will see gains if they do those 4 simple things. All of the drugs in the world won't make even a regional champion if a person is eating for shit, isn't training, and isn't giving their body a chance to recover or they aren't listening to their body when its telling them it needs a break or can push a bit harder. I'm willing to say 95% of the people I see in any of the gyms I routinely go through do not do those 4 basic things.
I agree that it's very basic in terms of the body's regulatory response to training and that most people over-analyze it to death.
We're not re-inventing the wheel and there's no amount of AAS that will make up for poor diet, poor training etc.
You can only trick your body for so long before it tries to reach homeostasis again........
DIV
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Milos Sarcev?
Eh........nothing personal but I'll take my chances with my own personal experiences over what Milos says.
I think Milos needs to focus on not getting his ass arrested for importing fake GH kits...... ;D
::) You know more than Milos Sarcev?
Come on now, thats just ridiculous.
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The it concerns me that you have with all of the "insulin gurus" in that insulin is only half of a very complex hormonal group with the ultimate goal of maintaining blood glucose levels within the body. The focus is insulin, insulin, insulin because the hormone does have anabolic properties--or probably its better said it is a hormone that when present in physioligic levels will facilitate the development of an anabolic environment.
The problem is no one talks about the negative effects (this includes catabolic effects) that could come about from the counter regulatory hormones the body will release in response to excessive insulin or hypoglycemia---or worse yet what happens when someone overdoses. Its nothing to be taken lightly in any way.
You want to know what I think the best approach is? Pay attention to your body, eat right, get into the gym and bust your ass, then get out and give your body a chance to recover. Every person on this planet will see gains if they do those 4 simple things. All of the drugs in the world won't make even a regional champion if a person is eating for shit, isn't training, and isn't giving their body a chance to recover or they aren't listening to their body when its telling them it needs a break or can push a bit harder. I'm willing to say 95% of the people I see in any of the gyms I routinely go through do not do those 4 basic things.
MIlos sarcev is the ONLY "insulin guru" in bodybuilding. Everyone else was either taught by Milos, or got second hand info from Milos. Everyone in his family besides him are/were doctors, and he spent many many years in the late 80's early 90's doing his own research on insulin. He came up with the 10g carb per iu measurement, no on in the academic community did. He experimented and consulted with doctors and professionals and looked at studies at tests and the science and came up with an insulin protocol all on his own.
I agree with you about hard training, diet , and rest. But that only goes so far. I think absolutely no one has any business using any hormones at all unless there diet training and lifestyle is 100% on point. But for a dedicated athlete who wants more than the human body has to offer, its fair game and a personal choice.
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::) You know more than Milos Sarcev?
Come on now, thats just ridiculous.
Let's say I trust my instincts over those of Milos Sarcev.
I didn't get arrested for trying to import fake GH kits.
The guy is decent with dieting for competitors but that's as far as I'm going with the cred.
Let's say he isn't the smartest bodybuilder out there.......which is an oxymoron in itself, eh "tbombz"? ;D
DIV
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Let's say I trust my instincts over those of Milos Sarcev.
Thats good. You always should trust your self before anybody else.
Let's say he isn't the smartest bodybuilder out there.......which is an oxymoron in itself, eh "tbombz"? ;D
Actually Milos is just about THE SMARTEST bodybuilder 'out there'. :)
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Let's say I trust my instincts over those of Milos Sarcev.
I didn't get arrested for trying to import fake GH kits.
The guy is decent with dieting for competitors but that's as far as I'm going with the cred.
Let's say he isn't the smartest bodybuilder out there.......which is an oxymoron in itself, eh "tbombz"? ;D
DIV
Have you ever had a one on one conversation with Milos about diet, drugs, etc? You should give it a shot before you pass judgement.
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Have you ever had a one on one conversation with Milos about diet, drugs, etc? You should give it a shot before you pass judgement.
I said it was obvious that Milos knows diet, but as far as drugs and what works best with other people, I'm not sure anyone can really make that kind of judgement.
Author L. Rea knows alot about drugs, cycling and has his own theories and I don't agree with alot of what he says.
I didn't agree with everything Dan Duchaine said either, and some of his theories were proven wrong.
Don't even get me started on Dave Palumbo.... ::)
DIV
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I said it was obvious that Milos knows diet, but as far as drugs and what works best with other people, I'm not sure anyone can really make that kind of judgement.
Author L. Rea knows alot about drugs, cycling and has his own theories and I don't agree with alot of what he says.
I didn't agree with everything Dan Duchaine said either, and some of his theories were proven wrong.
Don't even get me started on Dave Palumbo.... ::)
DIV
Heh, I agree. I'll listen to what any one of them says regarding DIETARY advice but when it comes to drugs, I think it's best to formulate your own opinions through countless hours of research.
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MIlos sarcev is the ONLY "insulin guru" in bodybuilding. Everyone else was either taught by Milos, or got second hand info from Milos. Everyone in his family besides him are/were doctors, and he spent many many years in the late 80's early 90's doing his own research on insulin. He came up with the 10g carb per iu measurement, no on in the academic community did. He experimented and consulted with doctors and professionals and looked at studies at tests and the science and came up with an insulin protocol all on his own.
Well, I am a doctor, who also has multiple bachelors degrees, graduate training, an internship, and a residency under his belt. Management of diabetes in multiple species is a research interest of mine, one of which I hope to be finishing a pioneering peer reviewed paper in one species soon.... If I can get the time to get one of my coauthors to get the damned thing finished. I'm not a competitive bodybuilder, but I am a competitive powerlifter and I've spent over 20 years hanging around the bodybuilding/powerlifting "scene". I've also been a Type I diabetic for almost 25 years.
I will go on record saying what I've seen online with insulin managment protocols for nondiabetic bodybuilders borders on what I can only call borderline asanine. What I see happening is there is this intense focus on a very small aspect of the effects of a hormone which is part of a complex hormone cascade that is not only poorly explained, its poorly approached and there is very little to no thought on counterregulatory mechanisms that the body has in place to accomplish the one real goal the body has with blood glucose----maintain blood glucose within a very narrow range so that the brain has the fuel it needs to function correctly. This is what the body will do no matter what. this is its ultimate goal, because if the brain doesn't have fuel, you will die. Its that simple. Your body doesn't want to die.
Now, I don't know if its a case of the bastardization of "Milo's ideas" or if its the simple fact that he didn't fully think things through and presented them to an online audience desperate to take a magic drug to help the "build muscle", but insulin metabolism is way more complex than I've seen presented on any single bodybuilding forum. I haven't had the opportunity to sit down and discuss insulin metabolism with Milos---I would gladly if we could figure out schedules---I just haven't done it. I also think that he may have done work to develop an idea as a nonmedical (this includes physiology) trained individual, but unless one of you has directly gone through one of his protocols, you don't have shit to work with other than opinions and word of mouth---which we all know will result in errors and warping of information, especially if its internet derived.
You are a fool if you think insulin is as simple as 1 unit per 10 grams of simple carbs. Its not. There is variation from individual to individual. Thats why with the case of diabetics, all diabetics must use insulin doses specific to their own bodies. Insulin is not dosed on a mg/kg basis and its not dosed on a unit/gram carb basis for everyone because every individuals body has different sensitivities to the hormone dependant on a variety of different factors from food sensitivities, carbohydrate content of your diet, glycemic index of those carbs, stress, exercise, body composition, and other hormone levels (testosterone administration or GH as examples). You simply cannot make a blanket statement like that. Its not true. The body also has "leeway" with counterregulatory hormones, thats why people can get by taking insulin when they are not diabetic. No one has ever objectively studied in a peer reviewed modality exactly what happens to a nondiabetic taking insulin. There is no way you can say its safe or isn't safe because it's not known. What is known is insulin will cause hypoglycemia in a nondiabetic if taken at suffient of a dose and that hypoglycemia will cause brain damage if its prolonged. There is no arguing with that.
I agree with you about hard training, diet , and rest. But that only goes so far. I think absolutely no one has any business using any hormones at all unless there diet training and lifestyle is 100% on point. But for a dedicated athlete who wants more than the human body has to offer, its fair game and a personal choice.
Thanks
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Heh, I agree. I'll listen to what any one of them says regarding DIETARY advice but when it comes to drugs, I think it's best to formulate your own opinions through countless hours of research.
Just don't believe everything you read on the internet or in online forums--its often incomplete or onesided. Think things through and try to get a basic understanding of how your body works before you start pumping shit into it. Your body is the only one youve got. Its not worth it to permenantly screw yourself up for 5 more lbs of muscle you could probably gain if you were more patient.
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Vet Milos has a Q&A on the positive board. You should go discuss insulin with him.
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Vet Milos has a Q&A on the positive board. You should go discuss insulin with him.
I asked Milos to post on this thread, if he doesn't post here, maybe starting up a thread in his Q&A thread on the positive board would be cool.
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I've tried it on various occasions and got so full and big from it I was almost uncomfortable. Crazy pumps and size. Used it with test and A50 and only on training days and only for 4 weeks at a time.
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insulin dangers are way overrated, i had a post back when I first tried it last year, I injected 50 iu first day, 70iu second day and 70iu the next, experienced diziness and number tongue other than that I was fine. 10 - 15iu is a cake walk even 20iu, not side effects if you eat afterwards. Btw the 50iu and 70iu was when i was measuring the shit wrong in my sryring not on purpose.
jt
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You are a fool if you think insulin is as simple as 1 unit per 10 grams of simple carbs. Its not. There is variation from individual to individual. Thats why with the case of diabetics, all diabetics must use insulin doses specific to their own bodies. Insulin is not dosed on a mg/kg basis and its not dosed on a unit/gram carb basis for everyone because every individuals body has different sensitivities to the hormone dependant on a variety of different factors from food sensitivities, carbohydrate content of your diet, glycemic index of those carbs, stress, exercise, body composition, and other hormone levels (testosterone administration or GH as examples). You simply cannot make a blanket statement like that. Its not true. The body also has "leeway" with counterregulatory hormones, thats why people can get by taking insulin when they are not diabetic. No one has ever objectively studied in a peer reviewed modality exactly what happens to a nondiabetic taking insulin. There is no way you can say its safe or isn't safe because it's not known. What is known is insulin will cause hypoglycemia in a nondiabetic if taken at suffient of a dose and that hypoglycemia will cause brain damage if its prolonged. There is no arguing with that.
Taken directly from the doctor......
I don't think most "bodybuilders" take in to account the details when it comes to exogenous insulin, such as bodytype and the counter-regulatory mechanisms you described.
Most bodybuilders would only see the "1IU/10G simple sugars" part of the equation and fuck the details.
The problem is, the details when you deal with insulin are EVERYTHING.
I'm sure a good percentage of the population fall within the "leeway" range, where getting some post-workout insulin won't put them at risk but it's by no means something that should be promoted.
I think Insulin use falls in the same cateogry as DNP.
There are no longterm studies done with the specific population in mind (bodybuilders) to really give any safe guidelines.
DIV
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I definitely agree. I have to take almost 20gs of carbs per IU of slin to keep my blood levels stable. It took some experimentation to find that out :)
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Just don't believe everything you read on the internet or in online forums--its often incomplete or onesided. Think things through and try to get a basic understanding of how your body works before you start pumping shit into it. Your body is the only one youve got. Its not worth it to permenantly screw yourself up for 5 more lbs of muscle you could probably gain if you were more patient.
Thanks for the concern. I'm not one to read things off the internet and immediately begin emulating what I've read. I make sure to educate myself as extensively as possible regarding anything, not just with drugs and whatnot. I'm definitely not the type of person to read a drug use tutorial and begin using my body as a guinea pig, especially with something like insulin. That's why I've recommended that anyone who plans on using it becomes as close to a guru as possible, given the limited amount of resources for the lay person (PubMed/Medline, peer reviewed studies, text books, etc).
While I love the internet for all it's worth, that's one of the biggest challenges. People skim over shit and selectively retain what they've read... "insulin, get hyoooge, 10g of carbs per iu of slin to be on the safe side, maybe buy a glucose monitor, should be 100% okay if I just keep some glucose tabs handy"... scary stuff. It's one thing to piss about with androgens and other drugs but with slin, a single dose can kill. In Canada, even if you're just buying slin pins a lot of places require you to sign off on it. While it's annoying (because I use some peptides and injectable vitamins), it's better than having some dumbass buy some slin at the pharmacy and end up killing himself.
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Why Insulin works:
Androgen/Insulin Synergy
By Michalovich Greutstein
Should anabolics be used with insulin or is it best to use insulin while off steroids in order to hold onto muscle mass?
We are going to demonstrate that they have to be used together. We will also try to provide some clues about their respective contribution to the synergy both hormones create. This will help us to handle both drugs better.
Here are some general observations:
It is safe to conclude something else is needed to uncover the full anabolic effect of steroids. The hormone which is the most affected by a high calorie or by a low calorie diet is insulin. Also, heavy steroid users know that past a certain amount of steroids, adding insulin will make a big difference as far as muscle gains are concerned. Insulin is thus a strong candidate as a potentiator of anabolic steroids (which we will indiscriminately refer to as androgens, steroids or anabolics). Furthermore, studies performed in trained dogs have shown a lack of insulin completely negates the anabolic effects of steroids on protein synthesis. There are some easy hypotheses such as a possible androgen receptor up regulation, a stimulation of androgen secretion, an antiaromatase effect arising from insulin. But, there is still something missing.
Using anabolics plus insulin will not make you much bigger unless you weight train. The synergy can only be realized if insulin + steroids + training are present. What is the link between those three factors?
A very likely candidate is an enzyme called insulinase. As its name implies, it is an enzyme responsible for the destruction of insulin. But we are going to see it does much more than that.
It is found inside many tissues of the body, particularly in muscle. What science is telling us is that insulinase is essential for insulin to provide its anti-catabolic effect on our muscles. It is also likely that insulinase is able to multiply the anabolic effects of androgens. It's worth repeating: insulin cannot stop protein catabolism without insulinase and the effects of steroids are potentiated by insulinase. It sure looks good.
Androgens are very powerful stimulators of the muscle protein synthesis rate. On the other hand, the muscle gains provided by androgens do not match this elevation in synthesis. steroids promote anabolism to a much higher rate than they make our muscles grow.
The reason for this discrepancy is that they also stimulate protein degradation. I know many people think they are anti-catabolic, but it is not the case. Anabolics stimulate protein turnover. This means they increase both synthesis and degradation of proteins. They are simply more effective at stimulating synthesis than degradation, which is why they make our muscles grow but not at a super fast rate. Look at how long it takes to grow huge muscles. If androgens were stimulating synthesis while inhibiting degradation, one would grow very, very quickly.
This is where insulin comes in. As we said, it mostly reduces protein degradation rate. It might stimulate protein synthesis right after training, but this effect is very limited in duration. Ideally, using insulin along with steroids would allow us to accelerate synthesis (thanks to anabolics) and reduce degradation (thanks to insulin). This is the best way to grow muscle fast.
Unfortunately, as both insulin and anabolics need insulinase to work better, they will compete against each other for this enzyme. For natural athletes, the supply of muscle insulinase should roughly meet the demand. Now if you add anabolics, there will be less insulinase for insulin. If you do not take too high a dose of steroids, the level of insulinase should still be sufficient to allow a fair insulin-induced anti-catabolism.
But as you take more steroids, the insulinase available for insulin will be lower and lower.
Insulin will lose its anti-catabolic effect. As it will still bind some insulinase, the enzyme availability for steroids will not be optimal either. Anabolics will lose some of their potency.
What is important to understand is that past a certain dose, anabolics will provide their own antidote against muscle growth. The only solution (beside using less steroids) is to increase insulinase level.
At least two factors can accomplish this feat:
The first one is insulin itself. The higher the insulin level is in a target organ (muscle for example) the higher the insulinase level will be. You would expect that the body would detect the shortage of insulinase for insulin and so produce more insulin (or more insulinase).
Unfortunately, this does not seem to be the case. While insulinase is crucial for the anti-catabolic effect of insulin, it does not seem as important for glucose disposal.
Insulin's main function is not to assist in muscle growth but to control glucose homeostasis. As a result, it is likely our body does not really care about a relative shortage of insulinase. In any case, we are left with a less than optimal equilibrium. It is up to the bodybuilder to react to this imbalance.
One way of increasing insulin secretion is to eat more, but you can only do so up to a point. You cannot increase your carb intake in parallel with the amount of steroids without getting too fat. Another solution is to use drugs to add or to stimulate insulin secretion. This way you get the insulin without the excess of calories.
In any case you now understand why steroids work better while on a high calorie diet while they lose their potency during a diet or a shortage of insulin.
Here is a way of "artificially increasing insulin level": One dose of long acting insulin first thing in the morning (this is the only injection). Before each meal (except the pre-workout one), take a sulfonylurea (an oral anti-diabetic drug which will boost food induced insulin secretion ). I like Glipizide because of its short half-life. In case you experience hypoglycemia, you know it will not last. This is the main problem with the long acting sulfonylureas. When you are hypoglycemic, you try to compensate by absorbing carbs. But the drug will make your pancreas secrete even more insulin before the carbs can hit the blood. It makes the hypoglycemia worse - not better.
In case of problems, make sure you get some ready-to-inject Glucagon (sold as "insulin emergency kits" in drugstores). An additional benefit of the Glipizide is that it induces the release of GH on top of insulin which is beneficial for non diabetics.
This is a nice way to fix the reduced anticatabolic property of insulin. Unfortunately, this will not yet provide the optimal amount of insulinase to have steroids work better.
We said that training was the third key ingredient in this synergy. This is because training can stimulate insulinase activity. Not any exercise will do. The traumatic ones inducing muscle soreness are the most effective. It is the factors inducing soreness which will trigger this increase in insulinase.
On the other hand, you do not want to create too much soreness as it will temporarily reduce the effects of insulin and androgens by impairing their effects at the level of their respective receptors. What you want is mild but frequent soreness along with some very frequent pumping sessions.
Do not forget both androgens and insulin circulate in the blood. The more blood you get into the muscles (and the longer it stays), the more your muscles will be "drenched" in those two hormones. Please note that insulinase is produced locally in the trained muscles only. It does not circulate into the blood.
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Vet Milos has a Q&A on the positive board. You should go discuss insulin with him.
From what I've seen Milos could not discuss anything with Vet. He simply does not have the knowledge. That's not to say that whatever Milos does isn't effective just that he doesn't have the education to discuss the technical details. It's like his amino drink theory. ask him why amino acids supplementation prior/during workouts speeds muscle growth. He will answer "isn't it obvious, you have better blood flow during training." No it's not obvious, not from a scientific POV. Same with the insulin; I asked him in his thread to elaborate on why and how exogenous insulin 'works'. He wouldn't. He simply could not hang with Vet... because he doesn't have the training.
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From what I've seen Milos could not discuss anything with Vet. He simply does not have the knowledge. That's not to say that whatever Milos does isn't effective just that he doesn't have the education to discuss the technical details. It's like his amino drink theory. ask him why amino acids supplementation prior/during workouts speeds muscle growth. He will answer "isn't it obvious, you have better blood flow during training." No it's not obvious, not from a scientific POV. Same with the insulin; I asked him in his thread to elaborate on why and how exogenous insulin 'works'. He wouldn't. He simply could not hang with Vet... because he doesn't have the training.
I concur.
I think Milos knows his shit, but "attempting" to have a level educated arguement with him is impossible. he twists everything around to confuse you and uses all these big words to make it seem like he knows it all. i have read just about everything the man has written, and i find too many holes in it, but i think he is one of the pioneers of this industry.
i have seen him dodge Van's questions so many times, or he replies with a question trying to change the subject.
There is no doubt in my mind that Milos is an Insulin guru, but trying to debate him is a very big waste of time. just read any of his 1500 word replies to simple 1 word answer questions. he is a master of misdirection.
8)
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From what I've seen Milos could not discuss anything with Vet. He simply does not have the knowledge. That's not to say that whatever Milos does isn't effective just that he doesn't have the education to discuss the technical details. It's like his amino drink theory. ask him why amino acids supplementation prior/during workouts speeds muscle growth. He will answer "isn't it obvious, you have better blood flow during training." No it's not obvious, not from a scientific POV. Same with the insulin; I asked him in his thread to elaborate on why and how exogenous insulin 'works'. He wouldn't. He simply could not hang with Vet... because he doesn't have the training.
I observe the same thing, but I feel its probably because he doesnt want to disrespect those who come to him with MONEY + questions, not just questions alone.
I am going to go visit his gym this winter and have a one on one with him.
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I observe the same thing, but I feel its probably because he doesnt want to disrespect those who come to him with MONEY + questions, not just questions alone.
You mean by giving away info that others pay for? I haven't asked for protocols just general technical details about drugs or diet methods. The amino acid/blood flow theory is a lot like the 'fascia limits muscle growth so Synthol will allow for more growth by stretching it' theory. Neither of those are facts IMO. They could be true or partly true but not obviously so.
He doesn't seem to mind talking about his theories. Just won't elaborate on the 'facts' as he sees them.
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Why Insulin works:
Androgen/Insulin Synergy
By Michalovich Greutstein
Should anabolics be used with insulin or is it best to use insulin while off steroids in order to hold onto muscle mass?
We are going to demonstrate that they have to be used together. We will also try to provide some clues about their respective contribution to the synergy both hormones create. This will help us to handle both drugs better.
Here are some general observations:
It is safe to conclude something else is needed to uncover the full anabolic effect of steroids. The hormone which is the most affected by a high calorie or by a low calorie diet is insulin. Also, heavy steroid users know that past a certain amount of steroids, adding insulin will make a big difference as far as muscle gains are concerned. Insulin is thus a strong candidate as a potentiator of anabolic steroids (which we will indiscriminately refer to as androgens, steroids or anabolics). Furthermore, studies performed in trained dogs have shown a lack of insulin completely negates the anabolic effects of steroids on protein synthesis. There are some easy hypotheses such as a possible androgen receptor up regulation, a stimulation of androgen secretion, an antiaromatase effect arising from insulin. But, there is still something missing.
Using anabolics plus insulin will not make you much bigger unless you weight train. The synergy can only be realized if insulin + steroids + training are present. What is the link between those three factors?
A very likely candidate is an enzyme called insulinase. As its name implies, it is an enzyme responsible for the destruction of insulin. But we are going to see it does much more than that.
It is found inside many tissues of the body, particularly in muscle. What science is telling us is that insulinase is essential for insulin to provide its anti-catabolic effect on our muscles. It is also likely that insulinase is able to multiply the anabolic effects of androgens. It's worth repeating: insulin cannot stop protein catabolism without insulinase and the effects of steroids are potentiated by insulinase. It sure looks good.
Androgens are very powerful stimulators of the muscle protein synthesis rate. On the other hand, the muscle gains provided by androgens do not match this elevation in synthesis. steroids promote anabolism to a much higher rate than they make our muscles grow.
The reason for this discrepancy is that they also stimulate protein degradation. I know many people think they are anti-catabolic, but it is not the case. Anabolics stimulate protein turnover. This means they increase both synthesis and degradation of proteins. They are simply more effective at stimulating synthesis than degradation, which is why they make our muscles grow but not at a super fast rate. Look at how long it takes to grow huge muscles. If androgens were stimulating synthesis while inhibiting degradation, one would grow very, very quickly.
This is where insulin comes in. As we said, it mostly reduces protein degradation rate. It might stimulate protein synthesis right after training, but this effect is very limited in duration. Ideally, using insulin along with steroids would allow us to accelerate synthesis (thanks to anabolics) and reduce degradation (thanks to insulin). This is the best way to grow muscle fast.
Unfortunately, as both insulin and anabolics need insulinase to work better, they will compete against each other for this enzyme. For natural athletes, the supply of muscle insulinase should roughly meet the demand. Now if you add anabolics, there will be less insulinase for insulin. If you do not take too high a dose of steroids, the level of insulinase should still be sufficient to allow a fair insulin-induced anti-catabolism.
But as you take more steroids, the insulinase available for insulin will be lower and lower.
Insulin will lose its anti-catabolic effect. As it will still bind some insulinase, the enzyme availability for steroids will not be optimal either. Anabolics will lose some of their potency.
What is important to understand is that past a certain dose, anabolics will provide their own antidote against muscle growth. The only solution (beside using less steroids) is to increase insulinase level.
At least two factors can accomplish this feat:
The first one is insulin itself. The higher the insulin level is in a target organ (muscle for example) the higher the insulinase level will be. You would expect that the body would detect the shortage of insulinase for insulin and so produce more insulin (or more insulinase).
Unfortunately, this does not seem to be the case. While insulinase is crucial for the anti-catabolic effect of insulin, it does not seem as important for glucose disposal.
Insulin's main function is not to assist in muscle growth but to control glucose homeostasis. As a result, it is likely our body does not really care about a relative shortage of insulinase. In any case, we are left with a less than optimal equilibrium. It is up to the bodybuilder to react to this imbalance.
One way of increasing insulin secretion is to eat more, but you can only do so up to a point. You cannot increase your carb intake in parallel with the amount of steroids without getting too fat. Another solution is to use drugs to add or to stimulate insulin secretion. This way you get the insulin without the excess of calories.
In any case you now understand why steroids work better while on a high calorie diet while they lose their potency during a diet or a shortage of insulin.
Here is a way of "artificially increasing insulin level": One dose of long acting insulin first thing in the morning (this is the only injection). Before each meal (except the pre-workout one), take a sulfonylurea (an oral anti-diabetic drug which will boost food induced insulin secretion ). I like Glipizide because of its short half-life. In case you experience hypoglycemia, you know it will not last. This is the main problem with the long acting sulfonylureas. When you are hypoglycemic, you try to compensate by absorbing carbs. But the drug will make your pancreas secrete even more insulin before the carbs can hit the blood. It makes the hypoglycemia worse - not better.
In case of problems, make sure you get some ready-to-inject Glucagon (sold as "insulin emergency kits" in drugstores). An additional benefit of the Glipizide is that it induces the release of GH on top of insulin which is beneficial for non diabetics.
This is a nice way to fix the reduced anticatabolic property of insulin. Unfortunately, this will not yet provide the optimal amount of insulinase to have steroids work better.
We said that training was the third key ingredient in this synergy. This is because training can stimulate insulinase activity. Not any exercise will do. The traumatic ones inducing muscle soreness are the most effective. It is the factors inducing soreness which will trigger this increase in insulinase.
On the other hand, you do not want to create too much soreness as it will temporarily reduce the effects of insulin and androgens by impairing their effects at the level of their respective receptors. What you want is mild but frequent soreness along with some very frequent pumping sessions.
Do not forget both androgens and insulin circulate in the blood. The more blood you get into the muscles (and the longer it stays), the more your muscles will be "drenched" in those two hormones. Please note that insulinase is produced locally in the trained muscles only. It does not circulate into the blood.
Please tell me this isn't something you've tried to use as a reference for taking insulin....... This is a prime example of the problem with internet information I feel like I'm harping on (And I apologize for the harping to those it annoys).
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Please tell me this isn't something you've tried to use as a reference for taking insulin....... This is a prime example of the problem with internet information I feel like I'm harping on (And I apologize for the harping to those it annoys).
Nope just an article relevant to the discussion of insulin. Is there an error in it? I wouldnt know, im not a doctor; if there is could you point it out?
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Nope just an article relevant to the discussion of insulin. Is there an error in it? I wouldnt know, im not a doctor; if there is could you point it out?
If you have that attitude, then I strongly suggest you give up even remotely thinking that you can self medicate and do it with even the slightest bit of safety....
You dont' have to be a doctor to see the errors in the article you posted. Just read it carefully. I saw several places it contradicted itself. Then there are the factual errors.
I don't have time to go line by line through it right now (I'm at work), but I should get time later today or tomorrow if you can please wait.
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If you have that attitude, then I strongly suggest you give up even remotely thinking that you can self medicate and do it with even the slightest bit of safety....
You dont' have to be a doctor to see the errors in the article you posted. Just read it carefully. I saw several places it contradicted itself. Then there are the factual errors.
I don't have time to go line by line through it right now (I'm at work), but I should get time later today or tomorrow if you can please wait.
If you could go in to some detail about the insulinase enzyme and how it interacts with androgens and insulin and weight training, that would be of great help. I had never heard of it before I read through(skimmed though) that article.. thats why I posted it...so a more knowledgeable person like yourself could clear up my confusion on that particular bit of science.
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insulin dangers are way overrated, i had a post back when I first tried it last year, I injected 50 iu first day, 70iu second day and 70iu the next, experienced diziness and number tongue other than that I was fine. 10 - 15iu is a cake walk even 20iu, not side effects if you eat afterwards. Btw the 50iu and 70iu was when i was measuring the shit wrong in my sryring not on purpose.
jt
You were having a hypoglycemic episode, if you were having those symptoms you were not fine ,you were dam lucky..
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You were having a hypoglycemic episode, if you were having those symptoms you were not fine ,you were dam lucky..
yup
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To those who have asked. I will not give out Milos' INS protocols. Give him a call at his gym and request a consultation if you want the info.
It's not that I don't want to help. I just don't want to give away information that Milos typically charges for. He has spent many years developing his methods and they are worth your $.
And, I don't want to be responsible for anyone trying insulin and screwing up. It's not something you try based on hearsay on message boards. That would be VERY stupid.
Also, I think you guys would be suprised at his level of 'medical' understanding surrounding his protocols. I doubt he knows as much about medicine as a doctor like 'Vet,' but I'm almost positive he could keep up and answer Vet's questions.
Look, I've spoken with him about this stuff at length and it's obvious he knows what he is talking about. Just because he does not respond to all questions on this board does not mean he does not have a response.
Vet, why don't you PM him and see if you can arrange either a phone or online chat? I would love to hear your opinion, as I value your input.
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IMO unless you are competing in BB at the national level and placing well, insulin should not be in your medicine cabinet.
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Nope just an article relevant to the discussion of insulin. Is there an error in it? I wouldnt know, im not a doctor; if there is could you point it out?
Why don't you post under your old user name(s)?
Since you're dying to try insulin why don't you have your really cool doctor give you some? & than your really great health insurance can cover it. ;)
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Why don't you post under your old user name(s)?
Since you're dying to try insulin why don't you have your really cool doctor give you some? & than your really great health insurance can cover it. ;D
WHAT'S GOING ON HERE??????
sorry, damn caps lock.
8)
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Why don't you post under your old user name(s)?
Since you're dying to try insulin why don't you have your really cool doctor give you some? & than your really great health insurance can cover it. ;)
huh ?
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huh ?
Was I wrong? Are you already taking insulin?
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that VET guy is a genius, seems to know his shit.
don't understand everything due to my limited knowledge of the english language, but from what I understand he is very knowledgeable 8)
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that VET guy is a genius, seems to know his shit.
don't understand everything due to my limited knowledge of the english language, but from what I understand he is very knowledgeable 8)
Vet knows his shit but some people just love to argue with him.
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people love to argue when they don't even know what they are talking about.
I don't know shit about chemistry, that's why I never argue with anyone 8)
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IMO unless you are competing in BB at the national level and placing well, insulin should not be in your medicine cabinet.
That's right!........... it should be in the refrigerator. Haha, jk... slin is serious bid'ness.
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That's right!........... it should be in the refrigerator. Haha, jk... slin is serious bid'ness.
I disagree, never felt like i was going to die when taking it and i took tons by mistake.
jt
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Why Insulin works:
Androgen/Insulin Synergy
By Michalovich Greutstein
I’m taking it you want me to go paragraph by paragraph through this article…. I don’t have a lot of time today, but I’ll tell you what I think as best I can
Should anabolics be used with insulin or is it best to use insulin while off steroids in order to hold onto muscle mass?
We are going to demonstrate that they have to be used together. We will also try to provide some clues about their respective contribution to the synergy both hormones create. This will help us to handle both drugs better.
Here are some general observations:
It is safe to conclude something else is needed to uncover the full anabolic effect of steroids. The hormone which is the most affected by a high calorie or by a low calorie diet is insulin.
This is not true. Insulin release is stimulated by BLOOD GLUCOSE---which is most affected by carbohydrates in the diet. Obviously, simple will change blood glucose more rapidly than complex carbohydrates, but overall carbohydrates have the biggest influence on blood glucose levels because they all break down to glucose. Second is protein intake. Amino acids can be directly converted to glucose, thus stimulating insulin release. Finally is fat, which because of the multistep process to degrade to glucose, actually has the least direct effect on blood sugar levels. Total caloric intake really doesn’t have that much to do with it. Its possible to eat a very high fat diet with a HUGE number of calories and have a relatively low insulin secretion level. That’s why high fat diets are fed to humans and animals (like ferrets) with insulin producing pancreatic (Insulinoma) tumors. Daily caloric needs can be met without inducing oversecretion of insulin from the tumor cells.
Also, heavy steroid users know that past a certain amount of steroids, adding insulin will make a big difference as far as muscle gains are concerned. Insulin is thus a strong candidate as a potentiator of anabolic steroids (which we will indiscriminately refer to as androgens, steroids or anabolics).
Um…. No. This is backwards. Anabolic steroids (specifically testosterone has an insulin sensitization effects TO A CERTAIN LEVEL after that point anabolic steroids will actually decrease the effects of insulin by inducing insulin resistance. The best real world example of this are Type II diabetics who have low testosterone levels. They go on HRT, their testosterone levels return to normal and their diabetic medication needs reduce significantly. When I personally started HRT, as my test levels returned to normal, insulin needs decreased by up to 5 units per day and my HBA1C dropped by 0.5 without a significant change in diet or exercise. This is HUGE and a point I discussed with my endocrinologist in detail. The thing is as serum Test levels increase, the body tries to maintain homeostasis by down regulating insulin receptors. This leads to loss of insulin sensitivity---that’s why you don’t’ see animals or humans with Leydig cell tumors or in animals with steroidiogenic adrenal tumors. Again ferrets are a prime example of this because the specific type of adrenal tumor secretes sex hormones. It’s also thought (but not proven) that this may lead to stimulation of insulin secreting tumors in American ferrets with concurrent adrenal disease. This explains the reason its very rare to see a bilateral adrenal tumor who also doesn’t have concurrent insulinomas. Again, this isn’t proven, but it makes sense physiologically. This may also be a reason humans taking huge doses of anabolics---not including GH, which has proven insulin desensitizing effects—can “get by” with taking insulin without seeing huge negative effects. They have induced a degree of insensitivity, that they are compensating for with exogenous insulin. THIS ALSO HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN. This is one of my own thoughts.
Furthermore, studies performed in trained dogs have shown a lack of insulin completely negates the anabolic effects of steroids on protein synthesis. There are some easy hypotheses such as a possible androgen receptor up regulation, a stimulation of androgen secretion, an antiaromatase effect arising from insulin. But, there is still something missing.
References please. This is not something I’m aware of in the veterinary literature and I’d really like to read the paper based on how Im reading its presentation here…
That said, this is also a no brainer statement warping the basic effects of anabolic steroids and insulin both. Think about it, what happens with a diabetic dog who needs insulin and doesn’t get it? That dog will have muscle wasting due to ketoacidosis just like a diabetic human. The body isn’t getting the glucose it needs, so it goes into starvation mode, burning stored fat and muscle for energy.
Using anabolics plus insulin will not make you much bigger unless you weight train. The synergy can only be realized if insulin + steroids + training are present. What is the link between those three factors?
This is a nobrainer statement used to justify the addition of insulin. You see these all the time in latenight “infomercials”. The bottom line is YOU WON”T GAIN MUSCLE UNLESS YOU WEIGHT TRAIN. Duh….. This statement really has no purpose other than to justify the ideas that are being presented.
A very likely candidate is an enzyme called insulinase. As its name implies, it is an enzyme responsible for the destruction of insulin. But we are going to see it does much more than that.
It is found inside many tissues of the body, particularly in muscle.
This is not true. The bodies primary regulatory mechanism with insulin is to downregulate its uptake and to increase free circulating blood glucose. This is done by epinephrine, glucagon, cortisol, and GH.
Epinephrine's actions are mediated through adrenergic receptors. Epinephrine is a non-selective agonist of all adrenergic receptors including α1, α2, β1, and β2 receptors. Activation of these receptors leads to release of stored glycogen from muscle and liver cells and to a degree downregulation of insulin receptors.
Glucagon is secreted by the alpha cells of the pancreas and has in essence the exact opposite effect of insulin—it stimulates epinephrine release, stimulates glycogen breakdown, and fat breakdown. Glucagon is the hormone given to people in a severe hypoglycemic crisis that will save their lives because it returns blood glucose to normal levels.
Cortisol does not have a direct effect on insulin, but it does cause increased glucose production by the liver and glycogen breakdown. It also mobilizes extrahepatic amino acids and ketone bodies which are metabolized to glucose. There is some misinformation about cortisol because it directly has no effect on insulin, however its metabolite, cortisone will greatly inhibit insulin receptor binding, also increasing blood glucose levels.
GH inhibits insulin receptors, causing a down regulation of insulin uptake. Generally I think of GH being increased AFTER the hypoglycemic episode as the bodies response to replenish what was utilized during the hypoglycemia. It increases gluconeogenesis, amino acid uptake, and lypolysis. This replenishes stored glucose reserves.
Insulinase is a misnomer. Insulin degradation occurs in the liver by a group of M16A metalloproteases. The specific enzyme with the most insulin degradation activity is the one known as Insulin Degrading Enzyme. This enzyme has a direct effect on the Beta chain of the insulin molecule, cleaving it, thus inactivating the insulin molecule. This enzyme is located in largest concentrations in the liver as part of the M16A metalloprotease group.
What science is telling us is that insulinase is essential for insulin to provide its anti-catabolic effect on our muscles. It is also likely that insulinase is able to multiply the anabolic effects of androgens. It's worth repeating: insulin cannot stop protein catabolism without insulinase and the effects of steroids are potentiated by insulinase. It sure looks good.
No. not the science I know. Again, read what I’ve posted above.
Androgens are very powerful stimulators of the muscle protein synthesis rate. On the other hand, the muscle gains provided by androgens do not match this elevation in synthesis. steroids promote anabolism to a much higher rate than they make our muscles grow.
This paragraph is circular and contradicts itself as I’m reading it.
The reason for this discrepancy is that they also stimulate protein degradation. I know many people think they are anti-catabolic, but it is not the case. Anabolics stimulate protein turnover. This means they increase both synthesis and degradation of proteins. They are simply more effective at stimulating synthesis than degradation, which is why they make our muscles grow but not at a super fast rate. Look at how long it takes to grow huge muscles. If androgens were stimulating synthesis while inhibiting degradation, one would grow very, very quickly.
The problem with this is the mixing of ANDROGEN with ANABOLIC terminology. Those are really two different functions.
Anabolic steroids have two basic functions…the are anabolic, which means they promote cellular growth and they are androgenic, which means they promote masculinization.
The end result of the combination of these effects—which directly comes from the anabolics relationship to testosterone and the association with testosterone specific receptors is increased muscle mass and masculinization effects (ie a male becomes more male and a female becomes more male).
This is where insulin comes in. As we said, it mostly reduces protein degradation rate. It might stimulate protein synthesis right after training, but this effect is very limited in duration. Ideally, using insulin along with steroids would allow us to accelerate synthesis (thanks to anabolics) and reduce degradation (thanks to insulin). This is the best way to grow muscle fast.
Again, this is confusing and poorly written. Insulin is the hormone that controls glucose metabolism, which provides a cell with ENERGY. The uptake of amino acids associated with insulin is more involved with energy metabolism and maintenance of the cellular function than it is with growth. Anabolic steroids promote aminoacid uptake specifically for growth.
Unfortunately, as both insulin and anabolics need insulinase to work better, they will compete against each other for this enzyme. For natural athletes, the supply of muscle insulinase should roughly meet the demand. Now if you add anabolics, there will be less insulinase for insulin. If you do not take too high a dose of steroids, the level of insulinase should still be sufficient to allow a fair insulin-induced anti-catabolism. But as you take more steroids, the insulinase available for insulin will be lower and lower
This paragraph makes no sense to me. See what I posted above about insulin metabolism.
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Insulin will lose its anti-catabolic effect. As it will still bind some insulinase, the enzyme availability for steroids will not be optimal either. Anabolics will lose some of their potency.
Again, these statements make no sense physiologically. Anabolic steroids cause decreased sensitivity not because of increased insulin breakdown but because of downregulation of insulin receptors at high doses. At this point, I’m beginning to wonder if the author of this article really has even the slightest clue how insulin works or what it does and instead is just spouting trying to justify this thought on an enzyme that doesn’t function the way they are trying to present it.
What is important to understand is that past a certain dose, anabolics will provide their own antidote against muscle growth. The only solution (beside using less steroids) is to increase insulinase level.
At least two factors can accomplish this feat:
The first one is insulin itself. The higher the insulin level is in a target organ (muscle for example) the higher the insulinase level will be. You would expect that the body would detect the shortage of insulinase for insulin and so produce more insulin (or more insulinase).
Again, this shows no understanding of basic physiology. Insulin degredation occurs in the liver, not in some random target organ. Insulin that is taken up---ie it binds to an insulin receptor one of two things happens. Its taken into the cell where it undergoes degration by M16A metalloproteases or it is released back into circulation where it is transported to the liver where its taken up and degraded by IDE.
Unfortunately, this does not seem to be the case. While insulinase is crucial for the anti-catabolic effect of insulin, it does not seem as important for glucose disposal.
Insulin's main function is not to assist in muscle growth but to control glucose homeostasis. As a result, it is likely our body does not really care about a relative shortage of insulinase. In any case, we are left with a less than optimal equilibrium. It is up to the bodybuilder to react to this imbalance.
This paragraph contradicts paragraphs above. It is correct in saying that insulins primary function is glucose metabolism though…
One way of increasing insulin secretion is to eat more, but you can only do so up to a point. You cannot increase your carb intake in parallel with the amount of steroids without getting too fat. Another solution is to use drugs to add or to stimulate insulin secretion. This way you get the insulin without the excess of calories.
In any case you now understand why steroids work better while on a high calorie diet while they lose their potency during a diet or a shortage of insulin.
All I can say to this paragraph is UH?
Here is a way of "artificially increasing insulin level": One dose of long acting insulin first thing in the morning (this is the only injection). Before each meal (except the pre-workout one), take a sulfonylurea (an oral anti-diabetic drug which will boost food induced insulin secretion ). I like Glipizide because of its short half-life. In case you experience hypoglycemia, you know it will not last. This is the main problem with the long acting sulfonylureas. When you are hypoglycemic, you try to compensate by absorbing carbs. But the drug will make your pancreas secrete even more insulin before the carbs can hit the blood. It makes the hypoglycemia worse - not better.
Ok, first taking a long acting insulin will not do shit through the day for a nondiabetic in terms of insulin metabolism. What will happen is the body will sense the insulin lowering effects and as a result not be stimulated to secrete as much insulin in response to dietary intake through the day. If there is an episode of hypoglycemia, then the body will release epinephrine, glucagon, and cortisol.
Oral antidiabetic medications, such as glipizide are quite capable of inducing fatal hypoglycemia. To say that the hypoglycemia is OK because “of the short half life”, “you know it will not last” is ridiculous in my opinion. Hypoglycemia induces epinephrine and cortisol secretion leading to glycogen breakdown long before the effects become fatal. This will inhibit weghttraining gains. Not only that, but even short term loss of fuel for the brain will result in death. If the brain doesn’t have the fuel it needs, its not going to function. Then you die.
In case of problems, make sure you get some ready-to-inject Glucagon (sold as "insulin emergency kits" in drugstores). An additional benefit of the Glipizide is that it induces the release of GH on top of insulin which is beneficial for non diabetics. This is a nice way to fix the reduced anticatabolic property of insulin. Unfortunately, this will not yet provide the optimal amount of insulinase to have steroids work better.
WRONG. Glipizide will only induce GH release if it induces hypoglycemia. This drug has no effect on GH outside of its ability to induce hypoglycemia.
We said that training was the third key ingredient in this synergy. This is because training can stimulate insulinase activity. Not any exercise will do. The traumatic ones inducing muscle soreness are the most effective. It is the factors inducing soreness which will trigger this increase in insulinase.
On the other hand, you do not want to create too much soreness as it will temporarily reduce the effects of insulin and androgens by impairing their effects at the level of their respective receptors. What you want is mild but frequent soreness along with some very frequent pumping sessions.
OK, can anyone with any serious weight training knowledge take this paragraph seriously? We all know soreness is NOT an indication of muscle growth. This paragraph again makes me wonder about this author.
Do not forget both androgens and insulin circulate in the blood. The more blood you get into the muscles (and the longer it stays), the more your muscles will be "drenched" in those two hormones. Please note that insulinase is produced locally in the trained muscles only. It does not circulate into the blood.
Ok, that’s it.
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To those who have asked. I will not give out Milos' INS protocols. Give him a call at his gym and request a consultation if you want the info.
It's not that I don't want to help. I just don't want to give away information that Milos typically charges for. He has spent many years developing his methods and they are worth your $.
And, I don't want to be responsible for anyone trying insulin and screwing up. It's not something you try based on hearsay on message boards. That would be VERY stupid.
Also, I think you guys would be suprised at his level of 'medical' understanding surrounding his protocols. I doubt he knows as much about medicine as a doctor like 'Vet,' but I'm almost positive he could keep up and answer Vet's questions.
Look, I've spoken with him about this stuff at length and it's obvious he knows what he is talking about. Just because he does not respond to all questions on this board does not mean he does not have a response.
Vet, why don't you PM him and see if you can arrange either a phone or online chat? I would love to hear your opinion, as I value your input.
Thats fine, I can respect this because I don't want to do anything to cut into his livelihood.
This is how I see it.... I will continue to post what I know publically here because I'm not making any money off of it. I've got nothing to lose, i'm just trying to make sure the information out there is correct. Obviously, Milos is on this board and around here and I'm sure he's been told about what I'm posting. Again, I'd love to discuss this with him in detail, but I'm not paying him to have a discussion about his protocols because they are something I'd probably never use because I'm not a competitive bodybuilder. I'm here, I'm easy enough to find if he's willing to talk.
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IMO unless you are competing in BB at the national level and placing well, insulin should not be in your medicine cabinet.
I agree
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that VET guy is a genius, seems to know his shit.
don't understand everything due to my limited knowledge of the english language, but from what I understand he is very knowledgeable 8)
LOL. Thanks dude, but I'm not a genius. I'm a fat guy who likes to lift really heavy weights who has internet access. ;)
;D
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I disagree, never felt like i was going to die when taking it and i took tons by mistake.
jt
Dude, I still think you got real fucking lucky.
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Vet knows his shit but some people just love to argue with him.
Thats fine, let them argue. I'm more than open to someone proving what I post wrong if they think they can. I'm talking basic physiology, not complex rocket science. And who knows, I may be wrong or I may present something in a way that makes it sound wrong. Its happened before.
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I disagree, never felt like i was going to die when taking it and i took tons by mistake.
jt
Don't worry, you're just a fucking idiot. You can't tell the difference between the lines and tics on a slin pin? Jesus... I'm surprised that you were okay. Some people can shoot a few units and damn near pass out. Just because YOU lucked out doesn't change anything to do with this compound, it just means that you're not like the norm. Or you possibly had some damaged insulin... who knows?
The bottom line is that it IS dangerous. And you're a fucking idiot. :)
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I just wanted to say thank you to Vet for answering these questions, again.
Vet helps us all out and is a great asset to the board.
I'll buy you a few beers if you ever come to Texas.
8)
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I just wanted to say thank you to Vet for answering these questions, again.
Vet helps us all out and is a great asset to the board.I'll buy you a few beers if you ever come to Texas.
8)
X 2 Im buying if vet is ever in Chicago 8)
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X3 ! I'm buying if you guys come to montreal !
.............. never mind nobody wants to come to montreal ;D
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Thank you for that post Vet. :)
Do you believe using exogenous insulin is an effective way to increase the rate of muscle growth ? Or no? Im confused it kind of sounds like your saying steroids alone will work as good as steroids +insulin, because the body adapts to the increased levels of insulin.
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X3 ! I'm buying if you guys come to montreal !
.............. never mind nobody wants to come to montreal ;D
True that! lol
If he comes to Canada, I say visit the West Coast. I'll have beer and buds waiting for the doc! And you thought insulin gave you the muncies... ;D
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I just wanted to say thank you to Vet for answering these questions, again.
Vet helps us all out and is a great asset to the board.
I'll buy you a few beers if you ever come to Texas.
8)
Where at in Texas? I've got family and friends all over Texas...
Oh, and it'll have to be something stronger than beer---Knob Creek, JW Gold, JW Blue, or Moonshine (preferably Alabama or Georgia stock). I gave up beer forever with the bullshit with the Anheuser Busch buyout.
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X 2 Im buying if vet is ever in Chicago 8)
I'll be up that way next year.
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True that! lol
If he comes to Canada, I say visit the West Coast. I'll have beer and buds waiting for the doc! And you thought insulin gave you the muncies... ;D
haha. ;D
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Damn, thanx for taking the time to break that down Vet!
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Damn, thanx for taking the time to break that down Vet!
Vet is the man...& if he ever makes it to Michigan - beers on me.
Like I said it's still too bad some choose to argue with him when he doesn't post things that agree with what they want to believe.
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Rimbaud who is arguing with Vet? Please let me know I would like to send them some nasty p.m.'s. :)
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Rimbaud who is arguing with Vet? Please let me know I would like to send them some nasty p.m.'s. :)
I think you know who's argued with Vet a lot in the past (& countless others here). Don't you? Come on don't pretend that I'm stupid.
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I think you know who's argued with Vet a lot in the past (& countless others here). Don't you? Come on don't pretend that I'm stupid.
I don't recall anyone arguing. At least thats not how I interpreted the discussions, I have only viewed people who have been inquisitive, nobody who was arguing.
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I don't recall anyone arguing. At least thats not how I interpreted the discussions, I have only viewed people who have been inquisitive, nobody who was arguing.
Why did you change your name here & on other boards?
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Why did you change your name here & on other boards?
;D
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Where at in Texas? I've got family and friends all over Texas...
Oh, and it'll have to be something stronger than beer---Knob Creek, JW Gold, JW Blue, or Moonshine (preferably Alabama or Georgia stock). I gave up beer forever with the bullshit with the Anheuser Busch buyout.
Houston area.
I can probably get some good shine if you are serious!
I only drink a few beers, Guiness, Heineken and Fat Tire.
I'm a big fan of Bushmills Irish Whiskey.
Anytime, just let me know!
8)
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Where at in Texas? I've got family and friends all over Texas...
Oh, and it'll have to be something stronger than beer---Knob Creek, JW Gold, JW Blue, or Moonshine (preferably Alabama or Georgia stock). I gave up beer forever with the bullshit with the Anheuser Busch buyout.
Damn. You got some expensive tastes. I do however have a liter bottle of Johnnie Walker Blue I got at a price that'll make you puke. ;D Tried it for the first time a week ago. I was impressed.
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;D
Figured out who it is?
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Figured out who it is?
Of course... Izzle there things?
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Of course... ********* there things?
Note: Edited for now. ;D
I don't understand why he just gave up posting on his old name(s) & started over thinking no one would know. It's very hard to change your writing style.
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Note: Edited for now. ;D
I don't understand why he just gave up posting on his old name(s) & started over thinking no one would know. It's very hard to change your writing style.
He is very careful with his spelling right now but other than that its as clear as day
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He is very careful with his spelling right now but other than that its as clear as day
Yes sir.
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Yes sir.
Spot the genius
Not true. Your implying that fat=fat. Nope.
Omega-3 is very different than omega-6. Omega 6 is very different than omega-9. omega 9 is very different ffrom saturates, and saturates are very different from trans-fats.
The omega-3's DHA, EPA, and ALA all have different effects.
The omega-6 GLA is extremely different than the omega-6 AA.
Omega-9 monounsturates are different than omega-9 polyunsaturates.
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Spot the genius
Boy those sound like someone else who stopped using their account almost two months ago. Everyone said he couldn't/wouldn't stay away...guess they were right.
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Boy those sound like someone else who stopped using their account almost two months ago. Everyone said he couldn't/wouldn't stay away...guess they were right.
I wonder if one was to ask a question on the steroid board would one be bombarded with stupid copy and paste posts from a teenage steroid user?
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Boy those sound like someone else who stopped using their account almost two months ago. Everyone said he couldn't/wouldn't stay away...guess they were right.
;D
*~Tumbleweed rolls by~*
8)
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Rimbaud, sweety, I love you too. Just for you and you only...anytime your ready to get serious and start putting your steroids to GOOD USE (aka "building mucle" or "retaing muscle while shredding fat")... I will do a one on one consultation on diet, training, & drugs with you. But just for you and you only, you big stud you. :-*
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Rimbaud, sweety, I love you too. Just for you and you only...anytime your ready to get serious and start putting your steroids to GOOD USE (aka "building mucle" or "retaing muscle while shredding fat")... I will do a one on one consultation on diet, training, & drugs with you. But just for you and you only, you big stud you. :-*
Brutal
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Rimbaud, sweety, I love you too. Just for you and you only...anytime your ready to get serious and start putting your steroids to GOOD USE (aka "building mucle" or "retaing muscle while shredding fat")... I will do a one on one consultation on diet, training, & drugs with you. But just for you and you only, you big stud you. :-*
We have seen your pics.
Your logic is obviously flawed.
8)
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Of course its hard to look good when your standing next to 'Michaelangelo's David'.. :D
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Rimbaud, sweety, I love you too. Just for you and you only...anytime your ready to get serious and start putting your steroids to GOOD USE (aka "building mucle" or "retaing muscle while shredding fat")... I will do a one on one consultation on diet, training, & drugs with you. But just for you and you only, you big stud you. :-*
Well I guess you showed me. ::) No thanks, I'll take my chances doing what has always worked for me. So I guess you're admitting the PMs I've been sent were right eh?
If you'll recall I tried to help you Taylor a number of times. I even supported you & tried to defend you. But then you turned on your supporters here. Why couldn't you just chill & relax? Instead you had to answer every challenge.
Why did you change your name claiming you'll never come back but then you did under a new one? Why not just relax & lay low...things blow over.
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We have seen your pics.
Your logic is obviously flawed.
8)
Classic
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I don't recall anyone arguing. At least thats not how I interpreted the discussions, I have only viewed people who have been inquisitive, nobody who was arguing.
Not always. You were incredibly argumentative (without too much provocation) on your old accounts. Again, why did you change names?
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"what has always worked for me"
::) ;D
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"what has always worked for me"
::) ;D
I don't get it but it doesn't matter. Again, why change your handle?
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I only use one 'handle'. :)
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I only use one 'handle'. :)
Now you do. ;)
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Damn. You got some expensive tastes. I do however have a liter bottle of Johnnie Walker Blue I got at a price that'll make you puke. ;D Tried it for the first time a week ago. I was impressed.
Nah, I hardly drink at all anymore. I'm a stupid drunk and I'm a 300+ lb guy who does dumb shit when he's drunk. its not worth it to me. I've gotten to the point where I can sit back and enjoy the flavor of a good drink and not really worry about drinking until I get hammered.
Plus the older I get the worse the hangovers are.
the last bottle of JW Blue (and last shot for that matter) was the best price---FREE. ;D
I had a client in NYC give me two bottles. I made the mistake of getting good and drunk on one of them. That shit may be smooth going down (and for the record I think the Gold is smoother with better flavor), but the hangover the next day will absolutey fuck you up. I dont' think I've ever been so sick in my life after a night of drinking.
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Dude, I still think you got real fucking lucky.
i agree!
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the last bottle of JW Blue (and last shot for that matter) was the best price---FREE. ;D
About four months ago I got a liter bottle of Blue on eBay for $40 shipped.
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About four months ago I got a liter bottle of Blue on eBay for $40 shipped.
WOW. That is a good price.
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WOW. That is a good price.
Oh yea, I had no trouble justifying that purchase to my wife.
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Nah, I hardly drink at all anymore. I'm a stupid drunk and I'm a 300+ lb guy who does dumb shit when he's drunk. its not worth it to me. I've gotten to the point where I can sit back and enjoy the flavor of a good drink and not really worry about drinking until I get hammered.
Plus the older I get the worse the hangovers are.
the last bottle of JW Blue (and last shot for that matter) was the best price---FREE. ;D
I had a client in NYC give me two bottles. I made the mistake of getting good and drunk on one of them. That shit may be smooth going down (and for the record I think the Gold is smoother with better flavor), but the hangover the next day will absolutey fuck you up. I dont' think I've ever been so sick in my life after a night of drinking.
I can sympathize....
I don't drink, save for a Merlot maybe.....
I don't get hangovers like most people, but the effects on my strength are just not worth it.
DIV
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What's the conclusion in this topic?
Who's VET?
How can we use slin in correct and safe way?
Where can I read what Milos say about nutrition, supplements, and drugs ??
Who should we trust if Milos, Dave Palumbo, Dan Duchaine, or L. Rea are wrong??
Where can we find good information to use in this sport? I'm sooooo fucking tired and don't know where I can educate myself more.
What is the best source to educate yourself in this sport??
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Vet = the man.
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What's the conclusion in this topic?
Who's VET?
How can we use slin in correct and safe way?
Where can I read what Milos say about nutrition, supplements, and drugs ??
Who should we trust if Milos, Dave Palumbo, Dan Duchaine, or L. Rea are wrong??
Where can we find good information to use in this sport? I'm sooooo fucking tired and don't know where I can educate myself more.
What is the best source to educate yourself in this sport??
If you can afford it set up a consultation with Milos and he will teach you more in an hour than you would believe. You can send him all you bio info and questions ahead of time so you don't waste time with that.
http://www.milossarcev.com/eshop/customer/home.php
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Vet = the man.
haha. Not really. But thanks, I appreciate what you posted. ;D
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Damn, I guess I'm the only animal here who just hits a heavy high volume workout, comes home pins 10iu's and raids the fridge. Insulin is good stuff you just have to have your facts straight . Last cycle I did I blew up. Muscle, glycogen and yes fat. Odly the fat was extremely easy to shed once off the slin. I havent hit it up in like 6months, may grab a bottle for bulk season. I only use it a pwo. GH with slin+++ if you can afford it. Did it once and it was gold.
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Oh yea, I had no trouble justifying that purchase to my wife.
gayer than justifying anything to the wife ;D
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I have recently started taking insulin since I was diagnosed with diabetes. They started me on metformin and quickly realized I needed injectable insulin. So i've titrated up to 50 units of the lantus (24 hour) basal insulin and I just filled my first scrip for Novolog (very fast acting) and I'm supposed to take 5-10 units with my largest meal to start, and probably end up taking 5 units with breakfast and lunch also. Reading all this bio-chemistry has made my brain hurt. I'm a network IT guy, not a biochemist. Is there a way I can take advantage of my prescriptions to help my gains in the gym without taking illegal anabolics? I realize that insulin needs vary person to person depending on indogenous production levels and insulin sensitivity so I guess I'm asking more about timing, and food choices. What and when will I benefit the most from with the insulin?
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I have recently started taking insulin since I was diagnosed with diabetes. They started me on metformin and quickly realized I needed injectable insulin. So i've titrated up to 50 units of the lantus (24 hour) basal insulin and I just filled my first scrip for Novolog (very fast acting) and I'm supposed to take 5-10 units with my largest meal to start, and probably end up taking 5 units with breakfast and lunch also. Reading all this bio-chemistry has made my brain hurt. I'm a network IT guy, not a biochemist. Is there a way I can take advantage of my prescriptions to help my gains in the gym without taking illegal anabolics? I realize that insulin needs vary person to person depending on indogenous production levels and insulin sensitivity so I guess I'm asking more about timing, and food choices. What and when will I benefit the most from with the insulin?
You want to benefit the most from your insulin? GET YOUR DIABETES UNDER CONTROL AND KEEP YOUR A1C's WITHIN THE NORMAL RANGE...
Seriously, thats going to do the most good for you in the gym.
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Another unfortunate case
Konrad C, Schupfer G, Wietlisbach M, Gerber H, (1998). Insulin as an anabolic: hypoglycemia in the bodybuilding world.
Anasthesiol Intensivmed Notfallmed Schmerzther. Jul;33(7):461-3.
"A 30-year old male presented with cerebral symptoms of hypoglycaemia. Directly before an international competition he tried to stimulate muscle growth by using the hypoglycaemic stimulus to the growth hormone. To achieve this he injected 70 IE of a short-acting insulin subcutaneously, resulting in severe hypoglycaemia. After the initial administration of intravenous glucose by the paramedics, he lost consciousness and showed signs of convulsions. After orotracheal intubation by an emergency physician, despite of ongoing infusion of glucose the blood glucose concentration remained low as measured in the out-of-hospital setting. Finally administration of additional glucose and glucagon in the intensive care unit was able to stabilize the metabolic system. In any case of severe hypoglycaemia, repetitive measurements of blood glucose even in the prehospital setting should be performed to detect the hypoglycaemia especially if athletes are concerned."
One thing is constant in these bodybuilding-related insulin horror stories. Both bodybuilders where trying to get a growth hormone spike from purposefully going hypoglycemic. Was this practice common at one point? It seems like madness to me.
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gayer than justifying anything to the wife ;D
You will learn in time young grasshopper ;D
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One thing is constant in these bodybuilding-related insulin horror stories. Both bodybuilders where trying to get a growth hormone spike from purposefully going hypoglycemic. Was this practice common at one point? It seems like madness to me.
It's stupid is what it is. Just buy GH and don't take stupid risks.
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One thing is constant in these bodybuilding-related insulin horror stories. Both bodybuilders where trying to get a growth hormone spike from purposefully going hypoglycemic. Was this practice common at one point? It seems like madness to me.
I don't see where it says they were trying to stimulate GH. Did you read the full paper?
Insulin admin is how GH deficiency was tested for in the past. Maybe still used somewhere, don't know.
Insulin was also used in psychiatry. They induced severe hypoglycemia and then "revived" the patient with glucose solution through a tube in the throat. Sometimes this was combined with electroshock IIRC. :o
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I don't see where it says they were trying to stimulate GH. Did you read the full paper?
Insulin admin is how GH deficiency was tested for in the past. Maybe still used somewhere, don't know.
Insulin was also used in psychiatry. They induced severe hypoglycemia and then "revived" the patient with glucose solution through a tube in the throat. Sometimes this was combined with electroshock IIRC. :o
van ive heard the same thing before too. some dude on promuscle said something to the effect of "wait 30mins after you log to get mildly hypo so you get a burst of gh"... there are some morons out there to be sure.
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Insulin was also used in psychiatry. They induced severe hypoglycemia and then "revived" the patient with glucose solution through a tube in the throat. Sometimes this was combined with electroshock IIRC. :o
Very true.
I forgot the name of the therapy but it was used quite a bit as a last resort.
8)