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Getbig Misc Discussion Boards => Wrestling Board => Topic started by: littleguns on July 01, 2012, 03:49:12 AM



Title: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: littleguns on July 01, 2012, 03:49:12 AM
SO who never had a bad match?? I will go off the cusp and say Edge....

After watching his most recent DVD "You think you know me", made me realize how hard he went.....


Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: gmflex on July 01, 2012, 08:30:07 AM
Would say mr.perfect
or benoit...


Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: Montague on July 01, 2012, 03:54:05 PM
IMO, it's the guys who made the fewest mistakes, covered the most mistakes, and could work around the most shortcomings of their opponents:
Hennig
Benoit
Bret
Shawn
Steamers
Macho
Dynamite
Muraco
Taker
...off the top of my head.


Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: tu_holmes on July 01, 2012, 04:20:30 PM
Taker?

He has like 7 moves... it's hard to fuck up 7 moves.


Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: Montague on July 01, 2012, 05:47:23 PM
Taker?

He has like 7 moves... it's hard to fuck up 7 moves.



He carried Giant Gonzalez through a couple of matches, which was no easy feat.

As for the "limited" repertoire, he gives those moves meaning. That's the art of story-telling during a match. There are and have been plenty of guys to pull stunts a lot more high-risk than Taker's dive over the top rope (for instance), but he gets as much - oftentimes more - mileage out of it; not to mention these days he does it about once per year.

It's not always what you do, but how you do it and what it accomplishes in the eyes of the audience.


Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: MCWAY on July 01, 2012, 06:47:20 PM
Taker?

He has like 7 moves... it's hard to fuck up 7 moves.


'Taker has a lot more than 7 moves. Every so often, he add a new wrinkle. As of late, it's been submission moves: The Dragon Sleeper (Takin' Care of Business), The Triangle Choke, The Gogoplata (aka "That Deadly Submission Move" aka "Hell's Gate").



Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: leonp1981 on July 01, 2012, 07:42:15 PM
I think Monty's covered most of them, the only other ones I'd add would be Eddie, and Dean Malenko.  I've not seen a lot of Malenko, but the stuff I have seen was solid.


Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: Montague on July 02, 2012, 02:37:05 PM
I think Monty's covered most of them, the only other ones I'd add would be Eddie, and Dean Malenko.  I've not seen a lot of Malenko, but the stuff I have seen was solid.


Oh, thanks; how the hell did I forget about Eddie!?!? He was one of the smoothest workers in the ring AND on the stick!
As for Malenko, check out some of his Japan footage for a treat, sometime.


Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: The Showstoppa on July 02, 2012, 03:16:33 PM
Flair pre-done days.


Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: Montague on July 02, 2012, 05:22:52 PM
Flair pre-done days.


You know, I originally included Flair on my list. The only reason I fussed a bit and removed him was that two men who I consider excellent ring generals (Bret & Scott Steiner) have both claimed that Flair stunk up the ring with each of them. In fact, both men have gone so far as to speculate deliberate sabotage on Ric's part in their respective encounters.

A while back, I posted the Steiner/Flair match in question. I think you'd even asked me for my input on it. IMHO, I really didn't think it was that bad. Flair looked like he maybe went up heavy for one or two of Scott's big power moves, but according to Scott's account, Flair was slow for some spots, missed other entirely, sandbagged for most of the match, etc. If he truly did, nothing was overly obvious to me. I suspect that Scott was maybe comparing an "off" night to Nature Boy's "usual."

As for Bret, I usually take what he says with a grain of salt. Everything is everyone else's fault and he is always the victim - a "wrestling tragedy."

Two things worth mentioning are that, 1.) I suspect a bit of biased, ego-driven jealousy may be at work here. And, 2.) These matches took place at a time in which Flair was going through a divorce and some other nasty dealings. It's possible he wasn't on his A-game, but I don't know that his work during that time deserves the type of harsh criticism that two particular individuals insist on dishing out.


Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: tu_holmes on July 03, 2012, 10:29:39 AM
'Taker has a lot more than 7 moves. Every so often, he add a new wrinkle. As of late, it's been submission moves: The Dragon Sleeper (Takin' Care of Business), The Triangle Choke, The Gogoplata (aka "That Deadly Submission Move" aka "Hell's Gate").



Ok.. 10 moves?

I just don't think he's that great of a worker... big... came along at the right time... Had a great gimmick.

That's all there is to him.


Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: MCWAY on July 03, 2012, 11:10:16 AM
Ok.. 10 moves?

I just don't think he's that great of a worker... big... came along at the right time... Had a great gimmick.

That's all there is to him.

I beg to differ. He tends to do the best with medium-sized wrestlers (Michaels, Orton, Angle).

There are few great matches where the Deadman faced guy his size or bigger (Batista, Diesel).


Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: yates fan on July 03, 2012, 12:16:15 PM
dusty rhodes was always smooth,a class act all the way.


Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: Montague on July 03, 2012, 01:12:46 PM
dusty rhodes was always smooth,a class act all the way.


 8)


Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: The Showstoppa on July 03, 2012, 03:09:46 PM

You know, I originally included Flair on my list. The only reason I fussed a bit and removed him was that two men who I consider excellent ring generals (Bret & Scott Steiner) have both claimed that Flair stunk up the ring with each of them. In fact, both men have gone so far as to speculate deliberate sabotage on Ric's part in their respective encounters.

A while back, I posted the Steiner/Flair match in question. I think you'd even asked me for my input on it. IMHO, I really didn't think it was that bad. Flair looked like he maybe went up heavy for one or two of Scott's big power moves, but according to Scott's account, Flair was slow for some spots, missed other entirely, sandbagged for most of the match, etc. If he truly did, nothing was overly obvious to me. I suspect that Scott was maybe comparing an "off" night to Nature Boy's "usual."

As for Bret, I usually take what he says with a grain of salt. Everything is everyone else's fault and he is always the victim - a "wrestling tragedy."

Two things worth mentioning are that, 1.) I suspect a bit of biased, ego-driven jealousy may be at work here. And, 2.) These matches took place at a time in which Flair was going through a divorce and some other nasty dealings. It's possible he wasn't on his A-game, but I don't know that his work during that time deserves the type of harsh criticism that two particular individuals insist on dishing out.

Honestly, that might be the only two i have heard of in Flair's whole career and both have/had an ax to grind with Ric, so I wouldn't put any stock in them for giving a fair assessment of Flair.  Countless others have never complained, perhaps those two need to look in the mirror.


Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: tu_holmes on July 03, 2012, 04:09:35 PM
I beg to differ. He tends to do the best with medium-sized wrestlers (Michaels, Orton, Angle).

There are few great matches where the Deadman faced guy his size or bigger (Batista, Diesel).

Those matches are all the other guy... The Deadman is shit.

He was shit in WCW... He's shit now.

He had a great gimmick and was fortunate to have people make him look good... Foley... Michaels... Everyone makes him LOOK good.

He sucks.


Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: Montague on July 03, 2012, 04:40:11 PM
Honestly, that might be the only two i have heard of in Flair's whole career and both have/had an ax to grind with Ric, so I wouldn't put any stock in them for giving a fair assessment of Flair.  Countless others have never complained, perhaps those two need to look in the mirror.


Bingo!!

Flair's got Steamboat's endorsement as a great worker, and that's all I need to know.


Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: MCWAY on July 03, 2012, 04:52:17 PM
Those matches are all the other guy... The Deadman is shit.

He was shit in WCW... He's shit now.

He had a great gimmick and was fortunate to have people make him look good... Foley... Michaels... Everyone makes him LOOK good.

He sucks.

You don't have a two-decade career in WWE, without having the skills in the ring.

As for those matches, they are HARDLY just the other guy, especially the feuds between Michaels and 'Taker. Both men put on a BLOCKBUSTER match, at WrestleMania 25.

Mark Callaway has long had the ability. WCW was too brain-dead to market him. WWE found the magic formula.

But, a gimmick will only take you so far. You have to have the ability and the charisma to take it to new levels.  Callaway has done with with the Undertaker character for decades. Even doing the biker thing (which was more his being himself, as opposed to a literal undertaker, an urn-controlled zombie, a superhero from the 'dark side', or a demonic priest), the Deadman has been a hit.


Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: Andy Griffin on July 04, 2012, 06:04:27 AM
Charlie Fulton never had a bad match.  He carried everyone he got in the ring with.

(http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/pictures/c/charliefulton/01.jpg)


Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: The Showstoppa on July 04, 2012, 10:00:24 AM

Bingo!!

Flair's got Steamboat's endorsement as a great worker, and that's all I need to know.


I am SOOOOOO lucky to not only have seen the WCW Flair/Steamboat stuff, but the earlier Mid-Atlantic stuff that helped launch both of them to superstars.  I watched them wrestle in hs gyms all over WNC.....and NEVER a bad match.  Two of the greatest workers, hot fued, small venue and the "mark" in me was alive and well.  Never forget it.  You can have your 60,0000 seat stadium with entrances that last longer than matches, I'll take 300 hardcore fans where you could actually chat to all the faces before/after matches.......brother !!!!!  ;D


Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: ritch on July 04, 2012, 10:17:46 AM
Val Venus


Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: Andy Griffin on July 04, 2012, 03:00:23 PM
I am SOOOOOO lucky to not only have seen the WCW Flair/Steamboat stuff, but the earlier Mid-Atlantic stuff that helped launch both of them to superstars.  I watched them wrestle in hs gyms all over WNC.....and NEVER a bad match.  Two of the greatest workers, hot fued, small venue and the "mark" in me was alive and well.  Never forget it.  You can have your 60,0000 seat stadium with entrances that last longer than matches, I'll take 300 hardcore fans where you could actually chat to all the faces before/after matches.......brother !!!!!  ;D


Same here brother, even though living in VA I never got to one of the WRAL tapings.


Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: MCWAY on July 04, 2012, 07:21:11 PM

He carried Giant Gonzalez through a couple of matches, which was no easy feat.

As for the "limited" repertoire, he gives those moves meaning. That's the art of story-telling during a match. There are and have been plenty of guys to pull stunts a lot more high-risk than Taker's dive over the top rope (for instance), but he gets as much - oftentimes more - mileage out of it; not to mention these days he does it about once per year.

It's not always what you do, but how you do it and what it accomplishes in the eyes of the audience.

Plus, those stunts are usually done by smaller/medium-sized men. Having a guy over 300 pounds to it (and look awesome, to boot) makes the Deadman unique.

Bret Hart often complains that working with the larger guys is a bit challenging, because they tend to be stiff or get gassed easily. But, he notes one of the few exceptions to that is the Undertaker.


Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: Akeelsolid on July 27, 2012, 09:59:47 PM
Top of my head:
Bobby Eaton (Alabama jam is an impressive high risk move)
Ted Dibiase
Jumping Jim Brunzell (awesome text book drop kick)
Jake the Snake roberts
Ravishing Rick Rude
Bob Backlund
Booker T (singles)
The Great Muta
Magnum TA



Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: tu_holmes on July 27, 2012, 10:05:47 PM
You don't have a two-decade career in WWE, without having the skills in the ring.

As for those matches, they are HARDLY just the other guy, especially the feuds between Michaels and 'Taker. Both men put on a BLOCKBUSTER match, at WrestleMania 25.

Mark Callaway has long had the ability. WCW was too brain-dead to market him. WWE found the magic formula.

But, a gimmick will only take you so far. You have to have the ability and the charisma to take it to new levels.  Callaway has done with with the Undertaker character for decades. Even doing the biker thing (which was more his being himself, as opposed to a literal undertaker, an urn-controlled zombie, a superhero from the 'dark side', or a demonic priest), the Deadman has been a hit.

A hit based on gimmick... nothing more.

That's my opinion and I am sticking to it... Dude has never had more than 10 moves... Never will.


Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: littleguns on July 28, 2012, 04:05:14 AM
Never had the chance to watch Magnum TA but in a recent interview Lanny Poffo said Magnum was to be the next coming, looks, technical ability etc. I believe either Dusty or Flair said also said he was destined to have the keys to the castle. Sad what happened.


Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: Montague on July 28, 2012, 06:02:36 AM
Never had the chance to watch Magnum TA but in a recent interview Lanny Poffo said Magnum was to be the next coming, looks, technical ability etc. I believe either Dusty or Flair said also said he was destined to have the keys to the castle. Sad what happened.


You know, I've got so much respect for Magnum TA. I watched an interview he did not too long ago, and given the circumstances, he's done everything right.
He kept everything in perspective and maintained a very positive attitude.
He moved on, pushed forward, and now owns a very successful communications tower company.

I've listened to guys who made it to the big time bitch & moan today about the business and how badly they got screwed. Magnum was poised to be THE TOP player. He probably had the most momentum and potential of anyone in the industry at the time and had it all taken away from him with that unfortunate accident.
I couldn't believe how honest and positive he came across when discussing that time in his life in the interview.

Magnum TA may be the most deserving pro-wrestler to be bitter about what happened to him, yet he is among the most positive I know of. He and Nikita are two class acts in that respect. Nikita had a lot going for himself, too, and was forced out early.
Both of these guys are a real pleasure to listen to.


Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: littleguns on July 28, 2012, 01:09:13 PM

You know, I've got so much respect for Magnum TA. I watched an interview he did not too long ago, and given the circumstances, he's done everything right.
He kept everything in perspective and maintained a very positive attitude.
He moved on, pushed forward, and now owns a very successful communications tower company.

I've listened to guys who made it to the big time bitch & moan today about the business and how badly they got screwed. Magnum was poised to be THE TOP player. He probably had the most momentum and potential of anyone in the industry at the time and had it all taken away from him with that unfortunate accident.
I couldn't believe how honest and positive he came across when discussing that time in his life in the interview.

Magnum TA may be the most deserving pro-wrestler to be bitter about what happened to him, yet he is among the most positive I know of. He and Nikita are two class acts in that respect. Nikita had a lot going for himself, too, and was forced out early.
Both of these guys are a real pleasure to listen to.


Why did Nikita retire early?


Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: Montague on July 28, 2012, 01:46:09 PM
Why did Nikita retire early?


He suffered cervical disc damage and, I believe, a hiatal hernia - both during a match with Vader.


Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: tu_holmes on July 28, 2012, 02:28:09 PM

He suffered cervical disc damage and, I believe, a hiatal hernia - both during a match with Vader.

Vader has a history of messing people up... He would be the last person I would want to have a match with.


Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: Andy Griffin on July 28, 2012, 03:48:51 PM
Vader has a history of messing people up... He would be the last person I would want to have a match with.

From what I hear, he didn't mess up Paul Orndorff.   :D


Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: GraniteCityDon on July 28, 2012, 03:58:28 PM
a prime Davey Boy was consistently incredible, cant think Dibiase had too many stinkers - if any?


Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: Montague on July 28, 2012, 05:10:42 PM
The way I understand it, Vader was always a genuinely nice guy, but he "played rough." He often stiffed the shit out of guys in the ring; not to be mean or a bully, but because that was simply how he worked. Maybe he spent too much time in Japan.

Most of the boys knew & understood Vader's style. A few, like HBK, took issue with it. While I don't remember the details, I do recall Orndorff getting into a scrap with Leon backstage. I think Paul knocked him out while wearing flip-flops coming out of the shower.

As for Nikita, I honestly don't believe he harbors any ill feelings towards Vader over the incident. It was an unfortunate accident; nothing more.


Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: Montague on July 28, 2012, 05:16:58 PM
a prime Davey Boy was consistently incredible, cant think Dibiase had too many stinkers - if any?


Most of you guys know that I'm a HUGE mark for the Bulldogs.

Yes, Davey was an excellent hand in the ring. The only criticism I've ever heard regarding him is that he was more of a follower than a leader in matches. He could give you whatever you wanted, but you had to be the one calling the shots.
That was the case as far back as the BBD/Hart Foundation feud. Dynamite & Bret would do most of the thinking/planning for their matches while Jim & Davey more or less sat back and listened.

It also sounds like Jim had an unhealthy influence on Davey. It seems that while both men were living in Florida with their families, Jim became a heavy user of hard rec drugs. After spending a lot of time together, Davey soon followed.


Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: MCWAY on July 28, 2012, 06:53:50 PM
A hit based on gimmick... nothing more.

That's my opinion and I am sticking to it... Dude has never had more than 10 moves... Never will.

No gimmick works this well for this long, unless the guy behind it has the goods. That is the case with Mark Callaway. He has the talent, the work ethic, and the athleticism. The Undertaker character was the missing piece. Once he got that, the rest is history.


Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: tu_holmes on July 28, 2012, 09:36:51 PM
No gimmick works this well for this long, unless the guy behind it has the goods. That is the case with Mark Callaway. He has the talent, the work ethic, and the athleticism. The Undertaker character was the missing piece. Once he got that, the rest is history.

We will never agree... I simply do not see this great "athleticism" that you see.

Does he have a great work ethic? Rumor has it, yes... Is he entertaining? Sure... but I don't see him as a good wrestler.



Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: The Showstoppa on July 29, 2012, 04:28:24 AM

He suffered cervical disc damage and, I believe, a hiatal hernia - both during a match with Vader.

I think it also had to do with his wife developing cancer and he wanted to spend more time with her.  I'm ashamed to admit I don't know if she is still living.  A guy I used to work with knew Nikita quite well.  He knew him thru Nikita doing a lot of work at churches around the Charlotte area.  Said he was a very nice guy, funny and considering how long it has been he was still in very good shape.  This was about 2 yrs ago.


Title: Re: Who Never Had a Bad Match??
Post by: Montague on July 29, 2012, 05:13:11 AM
I think it also had to do with his wife developing cancer and he wanted to spend more time with her.  I'm ashamed to admit I don't know if she is still living.  A guy I used to work with knew Nikita quite well.  He knew him thru Nikita doing a lot of work at churches around the Charlotte area.  Said he was a very nice guy, funny and considering how long it has been he was still in very good shape.  This was about 2 yrs ago.


I believe that I read or heard in an interview (or somewhere) that Nikita's first wife passed away shortly after his ring-retirement. I understand that he remarried.