Author Topic: Squats: Smith Machine or Free Weights  (Read 5205 times)

Bodycount69

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Squats: Smith Machine or Free Weights
« on: November 08, 2006, 03:08:15 PM »
I am fairly long waisted and have a hard time going down to parallel on free weight squats.  Is there that big of a difference in doing squats on the Smith machine as opposed to barbell squats.

pumpster

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Re: Squats: Smith Machine or Free Weights
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2006, 03:20:32 PM »
Whatever works the muscles better & is more comfortable. Yates does only Smiths.

The Squadfather

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Re: Squats: Smith Machine or Free Weights
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2006, 03:23:18 PM »
Whatever works the muscles better & is more comfortable. Yates does only Smiths.
agreed, if you belong to a commercial gym you'd be crazy not to try out all the equipment there for legs, be open minded.

texasRUSH

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Re: Squats: Smith Machine or Free Weights
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2006, 05:20:52 PM »
holy shit was that a smith machine endorsment? or at least a nod to try it?  ???

i better go grab some skates at oshman's before they sell out..hell just froze over!

Princess L

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Re: Squats: Smith Machine or Free Weights
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2006, 08:06:00 PM »
Here's another perspective.

The Smith machine locks you into a fixed plane of motion, which develops what is called 'pattern overload syndrome'. This was coined by Paul Chek and is explained as

People get a pattern overload from using the Smith machine. The more fixed the object, the more likely you are to develop a pattern overload. This is due to the fact that training in a fixed pathway repetitively loads the same muscles, tendons, ligaments and joints in the same pattern, encouraging micro-trauma that eventually leads to injury. If Johnny Lunchpail always uses a Smith machine for his bench presses, he ends up working the same fibers of the prime movers in the bench press all of the time: triceps brachii, pectoralis major, long-head of the biceps, anterior deltoids, and serratus anterior. But he can't change the pathway, the bar will always be in the same position. This commonly leads to chronic injury over time. The weight is stabilized for you. However, the joints operate in multiple planes. Use of the Smith machine, greatly decreases stabilizer activity. That creates a problem when the trainee returns to free-weight training. When that happens, the trainee is exposed to the three-dimensional environment called real life.

This clearly applies to any exercise. Because of the mechanics of the knee joint, the body will alter the natural bar pathway during a free-weight squat to accommodate efficient movement at the knee. A fixed bar pathway doesn't allow alteration of this pathway for efficient movement of the joint, thereby predisposing the knee to harmful overload via lack of accommodation.

If your feet are out in front of you, you tend to push 'back' against the bar. Doing so forces the hamstrings to function as extensors which decreases their protective effects on the knee - the result is increased sheering force on the knee. Again, over time, chronic injury.

 Some might bring up the issue of 'knees going over the toes' with free bar/full squats. It's a simple biomechanical misunderstanding.

If one were to assess knee injuries in athletic (read as: sport) environments, it becomes apparent that a high percentage of patellar trauma cases are sustained while the knee is beyond the all-sacred toe-line. In a misguided attempt to avoid knee injuries, the exercise community has therefore made this knee position taboo. In reality, the opposite reaction would have been preferential. Since this knee position is unavoidable in sports, or even in everyday life (try walking up or down stairs or a hill without your knee crossing your toe line) the proper way to prevent injuries is to strengthen the musculature around the joint by allowing the knee to travel into the “unsafe” zone in a controlled environment.

All joints contain feedback mechanisms inside the connective tissue and joint capsules called proprioceptors. These communicate with your nervous system to tell your brain what position your joint is at. This is how you can close your eyes and be aware of exactly what angle all of your joints are at without actually seeing them. To simplify a complicated issue, the more time you spend with your knee past your toe-line, the more you teach your nervous system to activate the protective soft tissue around the joint therefore PREVENTING injury during athletic situations (Supertraining, Siff & Verkoshansky, 1993). Close your eyes and think of a highly succesful strength coach. Yep, he agrees.


The take home message - learn how to squat with a bar.
:

AVBG

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Re: Squats: Smith Machine or Free Weights
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2006, 08:09:44 PM »
Here's another perspective.

The Smith machine locks you into a fixed plane of motion, which develops what is called 'pattern overload syndrome'. This was coined by Paul Chek and is explained as

People get a pattern overload from using the Smith machine. The more fixed the object, the more likely you are to develop a pattern overload. This is due to the fact that training in a fixed pathway repetitively loads the same muscles, tendons, ligaments and joints in the same pattern, encouraging micro-trauma that eventually leads to injury. If Johnny Lunchpail always uses a Smith machine for his bench presses, he ends up working the same fibers of the prime movers in the bench press all of the time: triceps brachii, pectoralis major, long-head of the biceps, anterior deltoids, and serratus anterior. But he can't change the pathway, the bar will always be in the same position. This commonly leads to chronic injury over time. The weight is stabilized for you. However, the joints operate in multiple planes. Use of the Smith machine, greatly decreases stabilizer activity. That creates a problem when the trainee returns to free-weight training. When that happens, the trainee is exposed to the three-dimensional environment called real life.

This clearly applies to any exercise. Because of the mechanics of the knee joint, the body will alter the natural bar pathway during a free-weight squat to accommodate efficient movement at the knee. A fixed bar pathway doesn't allow alteration of this pathway for efficient movement of the joint, thereby predisposing the knee to harmful overload via lack of accommodation.

If your feet are out in front of you, you tend to push 'back' against the bar. Doing so forces the hamstrings to function as extensors which decreases their protective effects on the knee - the result is increased sheering force on the knee. Again, over time, chronic injury.

 Some might bring up the issue of 'knees going over the toes' with free bar/full squats. It's a simple biomechanical misunderstanding.

If one were to assess knee injuries in athletic (read as: sport) environments, it becomes apparent that a high percentage of patellar trauma cases are sustained while the knee is beyond the all-sacred toe-line. In a misguided attempt to avoid knee injuries, the exercise community has therefore made this knee position taboo. In reality, the opposite reaction would have been preferential. Since this knee position is unavoidable in sports, or even in everyday life (try walking up or down stairs or a hill without your knee crossing your toe line) the proper way to prevent injuries is to strengthen the musculature around the joint by allowing the knee to travel into the “unsafe” zone in a controlled environment.

All joints contain feedback mechanisms inside the connective tissue and joint capsules called proprioceptors. These communicate with your nervous system to tell your brain what position your joint is at. This is how you can close your eyes and be aware of exactly what angle all of your joints are at without actually seeing them. To simplify a complicated issue, the more time you spend with your knee past your toe-line, the more you teach your nervous system to activate the protective soft tissue around the joint therefore PREVENTING injury during athletic situations (Supertraining, Siff & Verkoshansky, 1993). Close your eyes and think of a highly succesful strength coach. Yep, he agrees.


The take home message - learn how to squat with a bar.


Hi Princess L .... are you trying to confuse us? ala Vince Basile?  ;)

Princess L

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Re: Squats: Smith Machine or Free Weights
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2006, 08:13:49 PM »

Hi Princess L .... are you trying to confuse us? ala Vince Basile?  ;)

Forgive me for I am blonde  :-\
What is confusing?
:

AVBG

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Re: Squats: Smith Machine or Free Weights
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2006, 08:15:48 PM »

Forgive me for I am blonde  :-\
What is confusing?


I meant regarding the color of the font & the length of your post..

JPM

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Re: Squats: Smith Machine or Free Weights
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2006, 09:00:34 PM »
Excellent post by the lovely Princess L. (Blond ambition should never be confusing) The Smith machines lure because they are a little easier to use or keep the balance with.  Those twisting bar safety hooks can give a false sense of security. They are not safety proof. Working inside a Power Rack can be safety proof. There is a muscle curve reaction (or non reaction) not taken into account when doing fixed positioned exercises with a Smith machine. As in the article, there lays the danger. If one must train on a Smith Machine, than balance out any movement with a free weight exercise of the same nature; like... SM benching with BB/DB flat benching. Which in a way is redundant. But than again some BB'ers march to a different drummer, even though they may be tone deaf.

Some of the less desirable exercises to do on the Smith Machine, besides bench's (in any form), are overhead lifts with special notice to PBN's, up-right rows and squats. These seem to offer more of a chance for injury. Good luck.

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Re: Squats: Smith Machine or Free Weights
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2006, 02:35:50 PM »
try both...but master the squat on the free weight first. and for god sakes whichever you choose to do just make sure youre intense about it

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Re: Squats: Smith Machine or Free Weights
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2006, 04:29:57 PM »
holy shit was that a smith machine endorsment? or at least a nod to try it?  ???

i better go grab some skates at oshman's before they sell out..hell just froze over!
only a nod to try the smith machine--NOT to claim 1 rep max lifts using this machine! hahaha

pumpster

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Re: Squats: Smith Machine or Free Weights
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2006, 04:35:02 PM »
Quote
The Smith machine locks you into a fixed plane of motion, which develops what is called 'pattern overload syndrome'. This was coined by Paul Chek and is explained as

This is the typical one-dimensional anti-machine dogma, the canned "fixed range of motion" argument. There's an entirely other side that of course has been neglected. Machines, by removing the balance issue, can also allow heavier loads to be put on the muscles, thereby increasing the benefit. It's not at all black & white; anyone who doesn't bring this up isn't accurate.

As proven by those who prefer it to free weights. They know all the theories and still prefer it.

natural al

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Re: Squats: Smith Machine or Free Weights
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2006, 07:12:48 AM »
I have no problem with a smith machine, never have never will.  Bottom line, for me it matters how much weight I move with good form-or decent form without getting hurt.  I work out alone, I guess I could set up a power rack for every movement I do and set the stops to keep me from getting killed if I fail but I usually will use a smith.  lets say I handle 315lbs on a movement using a smith and the next time I do the movement I use 325, I've gotten stronger so I feel that I've progressed.  Now if I used free wieghts would that be better?  Maybe.  Could I move as much weight?  Probably not.  Do I care?  no.  bottom line is I progressed....

anyway that's the way I look at it.

I've said in the past that I can't do free weight squats because of issues with my lower back..  I tried, I got up to right around 300lbs-I started light, thinking it would give my back time to "adjust" to doing squats for the first time in a long time.  it didn't work, my back was killing me for days at a time, so it was not worth it.  When I do smith machine squats, legs are out front, back ins stragit and legs are together, once I round my back, the set is over...
nasser=piece of shit

Vince B

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Re: Squats: Smith Machine or Free Weights
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2006, 02:50:10 PM »
I can't believe people are arguing about shit like this.

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Re: Squats: Smith Machine or Free Weights
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2006, 06:10:58 PM »
Whatever works the muscles better & is more comfortable. Yates does only Smiths.

Yates hurt his back, which is why he switched to Smith Machine squats.

Of course, it doesn't have to be one vs. the other. Use both, to work the muscle effectively. On days, when you're a bit tired, do the Smiths. Plus, it gets some of the fear out of you, when it comes to the heavy weight.

pumpster

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Re: Squats: Smith Machine or Free Weights
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2006, 06:15:32 PM »
Yates hurt his back, which is why he switched to Smith Machine squats.

Of course, it doesn't have to be one vs. the other. Use both, to work the muscle effectively. On days, when you're a bit tired, do the Smiths. Plus, it gets some of the fear out of you, when it comes to the heavy weight.

More internet misinfo; also said that he finds Smiths more effective.

Really doesn't matter anyway; it's a silly thing to even debate.

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Re: Squats: Smith Machine or Free Weights
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2006, 06:19:12 PM »
More internet misinfo; also said that he finds Smiths more effective.

Really doesn't matter anyway; it's a silly thing to even debate.

I didn't get that from the internet. It was a magazine article with Yates from FLEX.

Edit - I found the article: Mr. Olympia Corner, October 1995, page 58. The injury was to his right hip.

Far from disdaining the barbell squat, I feel it is the one exercise I would urge all bodybuilders to use. The reason I no longer squat is due to an injury I incurred as an amateur.

In 1986, as a consequence of just about barbell squatting my @$$ off, I sustained damage to my right hip that eventually required surgery. When i returned, I continued perservering with the barbell squat (I loved this exercise) until a succession of niggling pains acted as a warning that this movement was no longer for me.

I rationalized that structure-wise (due to having narrow hip bones and long legs) I was not ideally suited to this exercise, and with my poundages increasing, the movement became ever more awkwars for me, which in turn diminished the muscular effect. In late 1989, I recluctantly said adios to the barbell squat.

pumpster

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Re: Squats: Smith Machine or Free Weights
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2006, 09:02:39 PM »
Your information's incomplete, thus your thesis is incorrect. Here's the part you didn't know about; yet another reminder that this thread's already moot for anyone with an open-mind. I'm doing this for the people with their heads in the sand:


Do you ever use Smith machines and do you have any strong opinions about that piece of equipment?

Dorian: Yeah, I used them for pressing movements, like incline press and shoulder press. I used it for squats, as well. I was brought up in the era of Tom Platz and he always said, "You've gotta squat; squats are the greatest thing for your thighs." Obviously it was true for Tom Platz. He had a good structure so that when he was squatting, the majority of the stress was taken by his quadriceps; his structure was quite short. So I was religiously squatting for the first five or six years that I was training. My legs were okay but they weren't great, until I began experimenting.

Then, squatting on a Smith machine, I could position my body so it was much more isolated on the quads, less glutes and lower back involvement, didn't have to worry about the balance aspect. Actually my legs improved a lot when I was doing Smith squats, hack squats, leg presses — I could isolate the thighs a lot more. So actually I used the Smith machine quite a bit for squatting.

T: That's fascinating because that flies in the face of so much advice.

Dorian: If it works, do it. If it doesn't, don't. My attitude is, don't agonize over why.

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Re: Squats: Smith Machine or Free Weights
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2006, 06:59:57 AM »
Ghostwriter?

Do you really think al those interviews really take place,
a writer and a manager make up the story.

About the squat,
keep doing it or keep trying.

It's a complete exercise that shouldn't be neglected in favour of a fixed movement. It targets so many more muscles compared to a smith.
If a normal squat is a problem,
try front-squat, or heavy lunges.

pumpster

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Re: Squats: Smith Machine or Free Weights
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2006, 07:09:45 AM »
Ghostwriter?

Do you really think al those interviews really take place,
a writer and a manager make up the story.

About the squat,
keep doing it or keep trying.

It's a complete exercise that shouldn't be neglected in favour of a fixed movement. It targets so many more muscles compared to a smith.
If a normal squat is a problem,
try front-squat, or heavy lunges.

It's a conspiracy.. ::)

dontknowit

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Re: Squats: Smith Machine or Free Weights
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2006, 08:14:21 AM »
Are you fucking with me  ???  ;D

I'm serious,
those articles shouldn't be used as a source. There's to much involved, Ronnie Coleman is getting sponsored by LifeFitness,
do you really think he's gonna tell you that the home-series suck? He can't tell you that.
It's not a conspiracy, but they also can't speak freely.

It would be interersting if there's somebody still alive who would follow his diet. There has been written a lot of shit about pro's.

pumpster

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Re: Squats: Smith Machine or Free Weights
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2006, 08:23:16 AM »
Try not to speak in absolutes then. You have a theory, that's all.