working a muscle once a week

[bigguns175]

Yea I could see that point, with the release of cortisol a catabolic hormone after prolonged stress, makes sense.  Time can also be manipulated as the time between sets or the second count of eccentric and concentric contraction but that could also go under the category of intensity I suppose.

[pumpster]

Yea I could see that point, with the release of cortisol a catabolic hormone after prolonged stress, makes sense.  Time can also be manipulated as the time between sets or the second count of eccentric and concentric contraction but that could also go under the category of intensity I suppose.

Actually time is just as important if it's in terms of time between sets, not duration of workout.

[davie]

So pumpster wen u say that an individual would work their muscles better working them 2/3 times a week, is this for the guy who uses average set numbers,10 - 15 per body part??

I am just wandering as i would guess high volume trainers who insist on 20+ sets per body part should stay away from multiple workouts a week per body part.

On the flip side, if ur volume is low (like mine), and ur intensity is higher (working with failure techniques etc), then should more frequency also be avoided?

Or is such a routine as upper/lower/upper etc, advised?

Im not quizing u, just looking for ur opinions?

davie

[slaveboy1980]

So pumpster wen u say that an individual would work their muscles better working them 2/3 times a week, is this for the guy who uses average set numbers,10 - 15 per body part??

I am just wandering as i would guess high volume trainers who insist on 20+ sets per body part should stay away from multiple workouts a week per body part.

On the flip side, if ur volume is low (like mine), and ur intensity is higher (working with failure techniques etc), then should more frequency also be avoided?

Or is such a routine as upper/lower/upper etc, advised?

Im not quizing u, just looking for ur opinions?

davie

if you do 20sets per bodypart with high intensity you wont be able to do that 2-3 days a week per muscle. if you do really high volume per session once a week is "enough". Also volume isnt static..its something that can be increased by slowly letting the body get used to more volume. If you do 2/3 times per week id say mostly avoid failure...unless you wanna do 1-2 sets per muscle at each workout (not optimal). id recommend you to start with 6-8 non failure sets 2-3 times a week for each muscle group. do that for a couple of months.

failure training can be used for short periods of time..but IMO failure should be avoided most of the time to allow you to do more sets. More sets equals more muscle loading=more mass (if food rest etc is on target)

avoiding failure doesnt mean training like a pussy :just stopping 1-2 reps before failure.

[davie]

if you do 20sets per bodypart with high intensity you wont be able to do that 2-3 days a week per muscle. if you do really high volume per session once a week is "enough". Also volume isnt static..its something that can be increased by slowly letting the body get used to more volume. If you do 2/3 times per week id say mostly avoid failure...unless you wanna do 1-2 sets per muscle at each workout (not optimal). id recommend you to start with 6-8 non failure sets 2-3 times a week for each muscle group. do that for a couple of months.

failure training can be used for short periods of time..but IMO failure should be avoided most of the time to allow you to do more sets. More sets equals more muscle loading=more mass (if food rest etc is on target)

avoiding failure doesnt mean training like a pussy :just stopping 1-2 reps before failure.

I completely disagree that more sets =more mass. I believe that is nonsense or we wud have guys training 1 body part a day 100 sets a bodypart!

I already have split etc i like tho in future might deveolp it, keep the same fundamentals i use at the mo, high intensity, rest/pause/drops/failure.

davie

[slaveboy1980]

I completely disagree that more sets =more mass. I believe that is nonsense or we wud have guys training 1 body part a day 100 sets a bodypart!

I already have split etc i like tho in future might deveolp it, keep the same fundamentals i use at the mo, high intensity, rest/pause/drops/failure.

davie

DOHH who said anything about 100 sets? you HIT guys see everything in black or white. also more sets=more mass is only true in a limited framework (not 100 sets per session) 

[pumpster]

if you do 20sets per bodypart with high intensity you wont be able to do that 2-3 days a week per muscle. if you do really high volume per session once a week is "enough". Also volume isnt static..its something that can be increased by slowly letting the body get used to more volume. If you do 2/3 times per week id say mostly avoid failure...unless you wanna do 1-2 sets per muscle at each workout (not optimal). id recommend you to start with 6-8 non failure sets 2-3 times a week for each muscle group. do that for a couple of months.

failure training can be used for short periods of time..but IMO failure should be avoided most of the time to allow you to do more sets. More sets equals more muscle loading=more mass (if food rest etc is on target)

avoiding failure doesnt mean training like a pussy :just stopping 1-2 reps before failure.

Frequency & intensity including failure are very subjective. HIT training whether anyone believes in or practicies it is where the idea of doing less to avoid over-taxing the cns came from, and i don't believe at all in the idea that 2-3 times a week can't include failure or intensity.

Positive failure most or all of the time, negative failure on the last set of each exercise can be done multiple times a week from my experience, and helps greatly in development. One must push the envelop at least some of the time to make gains IMO. This is what was done in the old days and has proven effective. This theory about over-taxing the cns and having to take it easier is just a theory, there's nothing in stone.

[slaveboy1980]

Frequency & intensity including failure are very subjective. HIT training whether anyone believes in or practicies it is where the idea of doing less to avoid over-taxing the cns came from, and i don't believe at all in the idea that 2-3 times a week can't include failure or intensity.

Positive failure most or all of the time, negative failure on the last set of each exercise can be done multiple times a week from my experience, and helps greatly in development. One must push the envelop at least some of the time to make gains IMO. This is what was done in the old days and has proven effective. This theory about over-taxing the cns and having to take it easier is just a theory, there's nothing in stone.

i agree that some people are too scared of overtraining and use it as an excuse not to work hard, but i still believe failure training week after week with forced reps (as many sticks at the gym do) will lead to burn out.


offtopic:
pumpster you said you trained bodybuilders on barbados in the 70s?...could you talk about your training routines back then? did you superset chest and back exercises...(maybe we should start another thread for this topic)

[davie]

DOHH who said anything about 100 sets? you HIT guys see everything in black or white. also more sets=more mass is only true in a limited framework (not 100 sets per session) 

Well i was using 100 sets as an example after ur more sets =more masss statement, not gonna argue about it tho.
I dont see things in balck and white actually, i myself am tthinking of little tweaks to make in the next few months that will allow me to keep my lower volume lifts, while working in sum olympic moves done with some more volume.

davie

[davie]

Frequency & intensity including failure are very subjective. HIT training whether anyone believes in or practicies it is where the idea of doing less to avoid over-taxing the cns came from, and i don't believe at all in the idea that 2-3 times a week can't include failure or intensity.

Positive failure most or all of the time, negative failure on the last set of each exercise can be done multiple times a week from my experience, and helps greatly in development. One must push the envelop at least some of the time to make gains IMO. This is what was done in the old days and has proven effective. This theory about over-taxing the cns and having to take it easier is just a theory, there's nothing in stone.

Thats what i was wanting to know ur opinion on pumpster.

as i already do MON=back./shoulders
WED=legs
FRI=chest/arms.

In the next few weeks,months i might develop that and merge the upper body days, and do upper/lower/upper, then lower/upper/lower etc.

I dont use static and negative failure. I use positive failure on all sets (really hitting the wall so i cant move it myself), the odd forced rep,rest/pause and drop sets.

davie

[jpm101]

We all will be waiting in awe to learn the training method of experienced BB'ing coaching in Barbados. Please do not keep us all waiting. Good Luck.

[pumpster]

So pumpster wen u say that an individual would work their muscles better working them 2/3 times a week, is this for the guy who uses average set numbers,10 - 15 per body part??

I am just wandering as i would guess high volume trainers who insist on 20+ sets per body part should stay away from multiple workouts a week per body part.


davie

IMO you should try varying different aspects and see which appeals. Start with 2 times a week/muscle using moderate sets and positive failure on most sets. 7-9 sets on smaller muscles, 9-12 on larger muscles. Then increase the sets, adjust the number of sets you take to failure, etc. each for 4 weeks or more and see which works better.

[pumpster]

We all will be waiting in awe to learn the training method of experienced BB'ing coaching in Barbados. Please do not keep us all waiting. Good Luck.

More useless tripe from someone looking more and more like a big baby rather than an adult. Having his ass handed to him over his "Zottermen curl" debacle and others like it that still sting like hell when attempting to pose as any kind of serious training reference. Jealous of the fact that i was training side by side with Mr. Universe contestants in my teens before he even knew what a barbell was.

Then turns around and bitches about me on other boards, further highlighting the obsession. It goes nowhere fast. Me i have better things to do than follow others around other boards like a puppy.

[pumpster]

i agree that some people are too scared of overtraining and use it as an excuse not to work hard, but i still believe failure training week after week with forced reps (as many sticks at the gym do) will lead to burn out.


offtopic:
pumpster you said you trained bodybuilders on barbados in the 70s?...could you talk about your training routines back then? did you superset chest and back exercises...(maybe we should start another thread for this topic)

Agreed, forced reps or similar things like it have to be used sparingly to avoid burnout. Less is more, use it very occasionally and go all out past positive failure only infrequently. Go to positive failure most or all of the time however, after good warmpus.

I didn't train guys i was just lucky enough as a kid to train around top guys. To be honest i can only vagely remember the programs but they were just typical programs of the era-Padilla's workout below would be very typical. Like others of that era like Schwarzenegger & Scott, basically the same program was used unchanged for years-a 3-day split modified slightly pre-contest in terms of greater frequency & sets.

The only difference i'd suggest now is to try it and then experiment with less sets of each exercise (try 3-4 sets each xercise instead of 5, with high intensity) and see what the difference is. Also try moderate reps 8-10 instead of 12.

As far as supersets, i've always believed that compounds are better, supersetting the same muscle. Right out of the Gironda routines. It's just another way of adding intensity, as Arthur Jones achieved in different ways with HIT.


Max posted this recently; typical routine:

During most of the year Danny trains 4 to 6 days a week  He always follows the same split. Day 1 Chest and Back. Day 2  Shoulders and Arms. Day 3 legs. Repeat. If he misses a workout, (which he often does, he doesn’t worry about it, he just does that workout when he returns to the gym. During this time he does 2 to 3 exercises per body-part for 5 sets of 12 reps. Danny uses the same weight in each set. When he can get 12 reps on all 5 sets, he’ll add weight during the next workout. His rest between sets is short. No longer than a minute. Even though the volume is high Danny completes these workouts in just over an hour… This is another way of keeping the intensity high which was taught by Vince Gironda, Bill Pearl and other great trainers of “the golden era” of bodybuilding.   

Chest and Back
Bench Press 2-3 warm-up sets then 5 X 12
Incline 5 X 12
Flys 5 X 12
Dumbell Pullovers 5 X 12
Chins 5 X 12
Bent Barbell Rows 5 X 12
Cable Pull-ins 5 X 12
Once a week he does Deadlifts 5 X 12

Shoulders and Arms
Seated presses 2 warm-ups then 5 X 12
Super-seted with cable laterals 5 X 12
Dumbbell rear delt raises 5 X 12
Front Raises OR Upright Rows 5 X 12
Dumbell Curls 5 X 8
Barbell Curls 5 X 8
Concentration Curls OR Preacher Curls 5 X 8
Lying triceps extensions 5 X 12
Seated overhead EZ bar extensions 5 X 12
Pushdowns OR One arm dumbbell overhead extensions 5 X 12

Legs – Abs
Leg Extensions 5 X 12
Squats 5 X 12
Leg Presses 5 X 12
Lying Leg Curls 5 X 12
Standing Leg Curls 5 X 12
Standing Calf Raises 5 X 12
Donkey Calf Raises 5 X 15
Seated Calf Raises 5 X 15
Crunches or Leg Raises 5 X 20
 

Contest Training: Volume on body part is raised 20 sets per bodypart. Weeks 12-7 body parts are trained twice a week. During weeks 6-0 each body part is trained three times a week. Danny gains size right up to the day of the contest even on this high volume, high frequency routine.

Weeks 12 to 7


Monday and Thursday -- Chest and Back
Bench Press 2-3 warm-up sets then 5 X 12
Incline 5 X 12
Fly’s 5 X 12
Cable Fly’s 5 X 12
Chins 5 X 12
Bent Barbell Rows 5 X 12
Cable Pull-ins 5 X 12
Pulldowns 5 X 12
Once a week he does Deadlifts 5 X 12

Tuesday and Friday -- Shoulders and Arms
Seated presses 2 warm-ups then 5 X 12
Superseted with cable laterals 5 X 12
Dumbbell rear delt raises 5 X 12
Front Raises
Upright Rows 5 X 12
Dumbell Curls 5 X 8
Barbell Curls 5 X 8
Concentration Curls 5 X 8
Preacher Curls 5 X 8
Lying triceps extensions 5 X 12
Seated overhead EZ bar extensions 5 X 12
Pushdowns 5 X 12
One arm dumbbell overhead extensions 5 X 12
Reverse Curls 5 X 12
Wrist Curls 5 X 12

Wednesday and Saturday – Legs -- Abs
Leg Extensions 5 X 12
Squats 5 X 12
Leg Presses 5 X 12
Hack Squats 5 X 12
Lying Leg Curls 5 X 12
Standing Leg Curls 5 X 12
Standing Calf Raises 5 X 15
Donkey Calf Raises 5 X 15
Seated Calf Raises 5 X 15 
Crunches 5 X 20
Leg Raises 5 X 20

Weeks 6 – 0

Workouts are the same as above, rest between sets is shortened but days are split like this:

Monday Wednesday Friday Morning
Chest, Back
Monday Wednesday Friday Evening 
Quads, Hamstrings
Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday Morning
Shoulders, Arms
Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday Evening
Calves, Abs

[davie]

IMO you should try varying different aspects and see which appeals. Start with 2 times a week/muscle using moderate sets and positive failure on most sets. 7-9 sets on smaller muscles, 9-12 on larger muscles. Then increase the sets, adjust the number of sets you take to failure, etc. each for 4 weeks or more and see which works better.

I think i lost u a bit bro.

what i meant it that i train with low volume high intensity training 2 exercise per body part, 1 extended set per exercise. like this: Rep out until failure (rep target for most upper body moves is 8 reps), if i get 8 or more b4 positive failure than u up weight next time, if not i keep same weight. So....i go until positive failure, then rest/pause for 10-15 seconds then go again (probs only get a couple mjore reps) until positive failure........then drop weight about 35% and go again until positive failure, rest/pause then go again until positive failure again.

I might use forced reps to help me once i fail on a rep+mayb one more assisted rep.

I like the v high intensity and low volume, but at themo im working each muscle once a week, but in the future i might progress that to keeping the same training techniques/philosophy (low volume high intensity), but making it upper/lower/upper once week, then lower/upper/lower then next. Will mean bodyparts get worked twice one week and once the next.

My original question to u pumpster was wether u thought that high intensity trainers could follow such a program, or wud sticking to once a week be more benifitial?!

davie

[pumpster]

I think i lost u a bit bro.

what i meant it that i train with low volume high intensity training 2 exercise per body part, 1 extended set per exercise. like this: Rep out until failure (rep target for most upper body moves is 8 reps), if i get 8 or more b4 positive failure than u up weight next time, if not i keep same weight. So....i go until positive failure, then rest/pause for 10-15 seconds then go again (probs only get a couple mjore reps) until positive failure........then drop weight about 35% and go again until positive failure, rest/pause then go again until positive failure again.

I might use forced reps to help me once i fail on a rep+mayb one more assisted rep.

I like the v high intensity and low volume, but at themo im working each muscle once a week, but in the future i might progress that to keeping the same training techniques/philosophy (low volume high intensity), but making it upper/lower/upper once week, then lower/upper/lower then next. Will mean bodyparts get worked twice one week and once the next.

My original question to u pumpster was wether u thought that high intensity trainers could follow such a program, or wud sticking to once a week be more benifitial?!

davie

I think you're describing strip sets, with short rests and reduced weight with each subsequent set. The thing with your training is that it's made more complicated by the fact you're mixing it with Rugby. In which case I think you mentioned that you have no choice anyway in terms of changing the frequency, for now. Your approach will maintain at least, and could help improve.

When you're not conflicted with Rugby, compare for 4-8 weeks. Try twice a week training using exacty the same training approach, as it is or split up. Compare results with 4-8 weeks of what you're doing now, using the same split. That's the only way you'll know, by comparing the effect.

[davie]

I think you're describing strip sets, with short rests and reduced weight with each subsequent set. The thing with your training is that it's made more complicated by the fact you're mixing it with Rugby. In which case I think you mentioned that you have no choice anyway in terms of changing the frequency, for now. Your approach will maintain at least, and could help improve.

When you're not conflicted with Rugby, then try twice a week training using exacty the same training approach. Whether you split it up onto different days is up to you. Try this for 4-8 weeks either with or without the split, and compare results with 4-8 weeks of what you're doing now, without having other sports in the way. That's the only way you'll know, by comparing the effect.

Thanks for reply bro, interesting suggestions.

I only actually drop the weight once. If i was leg raises 220 for say 20 then failed, i would rest 10-15 seconds and use 220 again until failure (maybe 6 reps more). Then i would drop it to maybe 80kg's and after 10-15 seconds more id go again until failure, then rest/apuse another 10-15 seconds and go until failure again.

I think its been working well, my weights have been going up on things each week (iv been recovering enough from the week b4 to meet my rep targets with the new heavier weights)!!

So wen im finished rugby for the season, i should give the upper/lower a try keeping the same routine tho (il merge shoulder/back and chest/arms days....unless i changed it to push/pull)??

The other alterantive i have is do upper on monday,lower on tuesday, wednesday off then, thur upper speed day (cleans db snatches etc), and friday lower speed (speed squats, overhead squats).

As iv said il  b sticking with curretn routine for a while longer, im enjoying the improvements and progress, but might make these changes at end of the season.

Opinions??

davie

[pumpster]

Thanks for reply bro, interesting suggestions.

I only actually drop the weight once. If i was leg raises 220 for say 20 then failed, i would rest 10-15 seconds and use 220 again until failure (maybe 6 reps more). Then i would drop it to maybe 80kg's and after 10-15 seconds more id go again until failure, then rest/apuse another 10-15 seconds and go until failure again.

I think its been working well, my weights have been going up on things each week (iv been recovering enough from the week b4 to meet my rep targets with the new heavier weights)!!

So wen im finished rugby for the season, i should give the upper/lower a try keeping the same routine tho (il merge shoulder/back and chest/arms days....unless i changed it to push/pull)??

The other alterantive i have is do upper on monday,lower on tuesday, wednesday off then, thur upper speed day (cleans db snatches etc), and friday lower speed (speed squats, overhead squats).

As iv said il  b sticking with curretn routine for a while longer, im enjoying the improvements and progress, but might make these changes at end of the season.

Opinions??

davie

Don't change anything if there's still improvement, then try some variations including what i said AND push/pull, each for 4-8 weeks. Then go back to this original routine for a while, see which works better, all done during a time when there's nothing else in the way.

[davie]

OK bro, like i said at the mo im gonna keep it the same.

Thanks for replys, what exactly did u mean by ur variation (that u suggested)?? Im sorry im half asleep mate.Long day.

davie

[pumpster]

OK bro, like i said at the mo im gonna keep it the same.

Thanks for replys, what exactly did u mean by ur variation (that u suggested)?? Im sorry im half asleep mate.Long day.

davie

Variations on the same program already done, in terms of changing the training frequency,  splitting the program up, push/pull, etc.

[davie]

Variations on the same program already done, in terms of changing the training frequency,  splitting the program up, push/pull, etc.

Thanks bro, if i try any of them i might try push/pull

Upper/lower would have me doing alot on upper days (about 11 exercises), push/pull has me doing about 9 on push days and 9 on pull days.
Push=shoulder (2 exercises)....chest (2 exercises)....,quads (3 exercises)....,tris (2 exercises).
Pull= Couple of sets of Cleans....Back (3 exercises)....,Hammys (2 exercises)....,Bi's (2 exercises)....,Traps (1 exercise).

Week looking like this MONDAY=push....WEDNESDAY=Pull....FRIDAY=Push
Next week MONDAY=Pull....WEDNESDAY= Push....FRIDAY=Pull.

Think that looks ok??

Might try it in month after iv finished period of what im doing?!

davie

[jpm101]

Gee, don't have to get so sensitive and bent out of shape. Thought you would like to share you experiences training top BB'ers in Barbados. Which I heard you have said you have done. Now that would be interesting stuff for some guy's here.  Care to name names for a better insight on their training back in the day? You must have been connected to the government then. Some of those brothers always seem to have the smallest waist and biggest lat spread and widest delts during that time. Good Luck.