insulin

[Vet]

I wonder if there is a way to increase SHBG?  And what other "can of worms" that would open up?

It has always amazed me how complex the human body is.  Its not like you can just change one thing without causing all kinds of other responses.  This must be why medicine is so very difficult to do well.

Why would you want to increase it?  If anything, a way to decrease SHBG would be mroe desirable because that would allow for more freeT circulating within the blood, which would then allow for more biologically active hormone, which can bind with the T receptors and enter target cells.   


And I agree, medicine is, to a degree, an art as well as hardcore science.   I worked for several years as a human med-tech thinking I'd go to medical school to be an endocrinologist or a gynocolgist (I hadn't decided) before I got really pissed at the "cook book" nature of some parts of human medicine.    Thats why I do what I do now, there are so many species that we have so much more to learn about.   

[Luv2Hurt]

Why would you want to increase it?  If anything, a way to decrease SHBG would be mroe desirable because that would allow for more freeT circulating within the blood, which would then allow for more biologically active hormone, which can bind with the T receptors and enter target cells.   

I see now I understand better.  Thanks

[busyB]

Why would you want to increase it?  If anything, a way to decrease SHBG would be mroe desirable because that would allow for more freeT circulating within the blood, which would then allow for more biologically active hormone, which can bind with the T receptors and enter target cells.   

What about these supplements that claim to raise free T?

Like ZMA, Activate by Designer Supps and ALRi Jungle Warfare? I find it hard to believe an extract of stinging nettle root would free up test as much as they claim.

Do you know anything to this? THANKS!

[!@#$%]

 
As your blood glucose drops from the insulin injection, one of two things is likely to happen.  Either A) the body maintains homeostasis and you have no effect other than placebo from the injected insulin or B) you go into a viscious yo-yo because you overextend the ability of the body to maintain its goal of keeping the blood glucose normal---so the brain has the fuel it needs.   The exogenous insulin will stimulate shutdown of circulating insulin as a result of dropping blood glucose and the decreasing blood glucose will stimulate your appetite.  If you eat a meal high in carbohydrates, the body will secrete insulin to deal with the increased blood glucose, HOWEVER, remember you have a slug of insulin being absorbed into the body already at a rate the body has no control over.  So you can then yo-yo your blood glucose back down, leading to secretion of epinephrine, glucagon, and cortisol, which leads to breakdown of stored glycogen and the body working to stop the effects of the circulating insulin.  This may have been the cause of your prolonged hunger, but its hard to say unless you were monitoring blood glucose levels closely.   Also, if you are severely glycogen depleted, you have insulin being absorbed that may overextend the abilities of the stress hormones to release stored glycogen... so your blood glucose continues to drop because the body continues to absorb that injection of insulin that you took---there is no way to take it back once you put it in.... and a little bit of your brain dies (ie you loose consciousness, have seizures, or die) because it doesn't have the fuel it needs to function normally. 

I haven't been online in the last couple of days and after thinking about what you wrote, two things didn't make sense:

1. Why would your body produce hormones to reduce glycogen when there is a sufficient supply of glucose from carbohydrates?

2. I was having a lot of trouble recovering from my leg workouts, sometimes it would take almost a week before the soreness in my legs would go away. When I take exogenous insulin, I would be completely recovered the next day. If it was all it was doing was depleting my glycogen stores, then how would you  explain this effect?

After reading what you said above, I wonder how this can be: "So you can then yo-yo your blood glucose back down, leading to secretion of epinephrine, glycogen, and cortisol". If you have low blood sugar either from endogenous or exogenous insulin and you eat carbohydrates, your blood sugar should reach homo status. Why would your body need to deplete glycogen at this point?

[Vet]

I haven't been online in the last couple of days and after thinking about what you wrote, two things didn't make sense:

1. Why would your body produce hormones to reduce glycogen when there is a sufficient supply of glucose from carbohydrates?

I'm sorry, but I really dont' understand this question.  The body has a set "normal" glucose range--typically 70-110 mg/dl.  The body has mechanisms to increase glucose if it drops below this level and mechanisms to decrease glucose if it rises above.   The goal of the body is to maintain homeostasis. 

2. I was having a lot of trouble recovering from my leg workouts, sometimes it would take almost a week before the soreness in my legs would go away. When I take exogenous insulin, I would be completely recovered the next day. If it was all it was doing was depleting my glycogen stores, then how would you  explain this effect?

What else were you taking?  Have you considered placebo?

After reading what you said above, I wonder how this can be: "So you can then yo-yo your blood glucose back down, leading to secretion of epinephrine, glycogen, and cortisol". If you have low blood sugar either from endogenous or exogenous insulin and you eat carbohydrates, your blood sugar should reach homo status. Why would your body need to deplete glycogen at this point?

I also really dont' understand what you are trying to say above.  You've confused most of what I've written in this thread from the way I'm reading it. 

[Vet]

What about these supplements that claim to raise free T?

Like ZMA, Activate by Designer Supps and ALRi Jungle Warfare? I find it hard to believe an extract of stinging nettle root would free up test as much as they claim.

Do you know anything to this? THANKS!

In all honesty, my knowledge of herbology involves mostly toxic/poisonous plants and how to treat their ingestion. 

I think there is a root of truth to many of the old herbal remedies.  I also think that prepared correctly, some of them may be better than modern medicine in terms of fewer side effects, but in comparison to modern pharmacology, herbal medications almost all lack potency. 

I also think that many of the people who engage in herbology experience a very strong placebo effect.  Weider started it and other companies jumped on this percieved effect using it fully to their advantage to make a buck. 

All of that said, I'm of the firm opinion anymore that 9/10 of the shit from the supplement industry on the market doesn't really do anything other than the placebo effect that the person taking it thinks they will have.  Its amazing what the mind can convince the body to do.  The supplement industry is a first class testament to this.   

[Luv2Hurt]

Hey vet did you know Getbig has a "pet board"?  Mainly dogs and cats, its kind of cool IMO.

[!@#$%]

I'm sorry, but I really dont' understand this question.  The body has a set "normal" glucose range--typically 70-110 mg/dl.  The body has mechanisms to increase glucose if it drops below this level and mechanisms to decrease glucose if it rises above.   The goal of the body is to maintain homeostasis. 

What else were you taking?  Have you considered placebo?

I also really dont' understand what you are trying to say above.  You've confused most of what I've written in this thread from the way I'm reading it. 

I'm saying if your body is trying to regulate glucose and you have adequate carbohydrate intake, your body will first convert the carbohydrates to glucose before reducing glycogen. This would be logical. Do you disagree with this?

Also, I wasn't taking anything when I got the positive effects from the insulin and I have a hard time believing it was my imagination.

[Vet]

I'm saying if your body is trying to regulate glucose and you have adequate carbohydrate intake, your body will first convert the carbohydrates to glucose before reducing glycogen. This would be logical. Do you disagree with this?

Also, I wasn't taking anything when I got the positive effects from the insulin and I have a hard time believing it was my imagination.

You need to consider the absorption time of the carbohydrates you are taking compared to the response time of the body secreting hormones directly into the blood stream.   Say you eat a simple carbohydrate, it begins to be absorbed very rapidly, but it still isn't instantaneous.   The same with a complex carbohydrate.   Those are absorbed slower (obviously).  The body will respond to maintain homeostasis.  If you take exogenous insulin, and wait to eat until you start to feel shakey and weak, then by that point your blood glucose has already dropped and the body is fighting to get it back to normal .  If you take the insulin and then eat the simple carbohydrate immediately after, the body will have responded to drop that absorbed sugar back to normal long before the insulin you inject begins to have an effect.   

As far as your other comment, I really, really think we all short change the power of the mind to convince ourselves we are having effects from everything from supplements, to a routine, to our jobs.  The way you are hanging on to the insulin absolutely having to have enhanced your recovery should be a thread of proof to this.  You have decided that insulin drammatically improves your recovery.  You are going to argue and argue that it gave you a positive effect no matter what I post.   Did it?  I don't know.   Soreness and post exercise pain is really a relative occurance---what one person considers painful, another may laugh at.   I'm just trying to explain things from a physiological standpoint.   Physiologically, your results don't make sense to me. 

[!@#$%]

You need to consider the absorption time of the carbohydrates you are taking compared to the response time of the body secreting hormones directly into the blood stream.   Say you eat a simple carbohydrate, it begins to be absorbed very rapidly, but it still isn't instantaneous.   The same with a complex carbohydrate.   Those are absorbed slower (obviously).  The body will respond to maintain homeostasis.  If you take exogenous insulin, and wait to eat until you start to feel shakey and weak, then by that point your blood glucose has already dropped and the body is fighting to get it back to normal .  If you take the insulin and then eat the simple carbohydrate immediately after, the body will have responded to drop that absorbed sugar back to normal long before the insulin you inject begins to have an effect.   

But if you continue to consume adequate carbohydrates for the duration of the insulin, then there is no need for blood glucose to drop too low, as the body can draw it from the carbs.

As far as your other comment, I really, really think we all short change the power of the mind to convince ourselves we are having effects from everything from supplements, to a routine, to our jobs.  The way you are hanging on to the insulin absolutely having to have enhanced your recovery should be a thread of proof to this.  You have decided that insulin drammatically improves your recovery.  You are going to argue and argue that it gave you a positive effect no matter what I post.   Did it?  I don't know.   Soreness and post exercise pain is really a relative occurance---what one person considers painful, another may laugh at.   I'm just trying to explain things from a physiological standpoint.   Physiologically, your results don't make sense to me. 

I'm not trying to argue with you or win a debate, I just want to take advantage of every opportunity science has to offer without risking my health. I'm trying to achieve this by discussing this with you, to get  a clearer understanding of the effects of exogenous insulin. Your views are dramatically different from everything I have read on the subject.

Here is a link to Llewyll's Anabolics 2006:

http://www.mediafire.com/?8m3jqxxd4mx

There are a 3 or 4 pages written on insulin use in bodybuilding. His views are typical. Do you disagree with everything written in these pages?

As for an explanation for my increased recover rate: How about the insulin pushed amino acids and glycogen into the muscles aiding in their healing rate?

[trab]

I have a strong feel that it gets to be individual re: the extreme muscle that some guys are able to put on w/ insulin + HGH. Dangerous, Hell yes.

[Vet]

But if you continue to consume adequate carbohydrates for the duration of the insulin, then there is no need for blood glucose to drop too low, as the body can draw it from the carbs.

I'm not trying to argue with you or win a debate, I just want to take advantage of every opportunity science has to offer without risking my health. I'm trying to achieve this by discussing this with you, to get  a clearer understanding of the effects of exogenous insulin. Your views are dramatically different from everything I have read on the subject.

Here is a link to Llewyll's Anabolics 2006:

http://www.mediafire.com/?8m3jqxxd4mx

There are a 3 or 4 pages written on insulin use in bodybuilding. His views are typical. Do you disagree with everything written in these pages?

As for an explanation for my increased recover rate: How about the insulin pushed amino acids and glycogen into the muscles aiding in their healing rate?

Ok, I've read those pages.  I really think that Llewyll and I are pretty much both saying the same thing.   He states the dangers of taking insulin becuase of hypoglycemia, so did I.  He states the basic physiology of insulin, which I also did.  I do disagree somewhat in how he presents the function of insulin to facilitate the uptake of amino acids into cells, but the bottom line is that we both acknowledge that insulin is indescriminate in the cells it affects---ie it will facilitate both muscle and fat cell nutrient (amino acid, glucose, and fatty acid metabolism) uptake and that the ultimate function of insulin is blood glucose regulation.   He went so far to mention the lipogenic effects of insulin at injection sites, which I didn't.  I think his use of the term "anticatabolic" is relative.  He spent over a page on the sources and types of insulin.  I didn't acknowledge the other forms of insulin in my posts simply because of the fact that R is the one used so much (as Llewyll also states).  I also didn't post anything on doses.   Llewyll spent pretty much the last page discussing the signs and treatment of exogenous insulin induced hypoglycemia.  I think this is where he did fall short because he neglected to mention the effects of the stress hormones secreted by the body in response to hypoglycemia.  The epinephrine that causes the "shaky feeling" and glycogen mobilization, the glucagon that causes glycogen breakdown and the cortisol that futher affects gluose metabolism are all very, very important and what I think can further add onto problems in bodybuilders using this drug.   Also, he neglects to mention anywhere the fact that the body maintains a very delicate balance of insulin and "stress hormones" in order to maintain normal blood glucose levels so that the brain has the fuel it needs.   I personally think this is very, very important in understanding how your blood sugar will rise or fall in response to a meal, exogenous insulin, fasting, stress, and/or exercise. 


As far as your "miracle recovery" I really have a hard time believing it was directly as a result of insulin.  I know absolutely nothing about you, your training history, or your diet.  Those all could have been a factor.  Simply eating more as a result of hyoglycemia may have provided additional calories if you were already undereating (which in my experience most people trying to add mass or strength are doing).  I also think Placebo could have been a big, big factor with you based on the way you seem to be hanging onto the fact that it was the insulin that suddenly made your recovery so much better.  Your brain can convince your body to do some pretty astonishing things if you just let it happen.