Author Topic: insulin  (Read 6440 times)

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insulin
« on: May 23, 2007, 11:46:35 AM »
Can one take insulin without using growth hormone or would it cause someone to just get fat.If you ran it with other stuff like sus,anadrol and eq,could you also include insulin without growth.

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Re: insulin
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2007, 03:02:47 PM »
First off, You do know it can KILL you in minutes not years, correct?
There are some real good insulin posts in the mess here, if I see one, I'll throw the link here.
Insulin's deffinatly Not for me, I go sudden low blood suger naturaly. I dont need to pass out, fall asleep and hopefully die instead of waking up with major brain dammage.

 http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=92848.0

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Re: insulin
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2007, 10:19:08 PM »
I really think you are a borderline dumbass for messing with insulin unless you are an insulin dependant diabetic under the care of a qualified physician.  One small mistake with insulin, ie you misdose yourself, and within a few minutes.... unconsciousness, seizures, brain damage....... death.   Not only that, but insulin doesn't just promote muscle growth, it also promotes fat deposition AND if you induce hypoglycemia, you will stimulate your appetite to counteract the low blood sugar AND induced hypoglycemia leads to decreased muscle and liver glycogen stores which means poorer performance in the gym. 

I'm amazed every time I read on any of the boards the fact that nondiabetics are messing with insulin considering what could happen.     

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Re: insulin
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2007, 05:12:22 AM »
You act as though its some unusual occurance.The vast majority of national guys I know use it.If you cant answer the question,save your moral judgements on someone who cares.Hey,I also frequent prostitutes and dont use condoms.Care to give me your moral views on that as well.Either answer the f'n question with facts or dont,but save your judgements for the church pew.

trab

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Re: insulin
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2007, 07:39:38 AM »
You act as though its some unusual occurance.The vast majority of national guys I know use it.If you cant answer the question,save your moral judgements on someone who cares.Hey,I also frequent prostitutes and dont use condoms.Care to give me your moral views on that as well.Either answer the f'n question with facts or dont,but save your judgements for the church pew.


Vet has a lot of priceless chemical and medical knowledge he shares here.
I didn't take his concerns for your and others safety to be moral/ ethical, only that you may not know the full consequences.
  I make NO Moral judgments here. I liked 100mph+ wheelstands on my GSXR1100 and humping the Chaing Mai bar girls bareback when I was young.
I'm lucky to be pushing 50 today ;D ::).

And, YES insulin is used by many, and effective. But it's also dangerous. Did you read O's link I put up and the comments from some very experienced competitors there?  Good luck with your BBing. Hope you excel, just dont want to see ya hurt in  the process. SHort acting is the word if there is no way to talk you out of it. And you better get that carb game down.  One of the better piece on insulin use has apparently been removed. Liability concerns for Ron I'd suspect.
THat speaks volumes to.  Good luck.

trab

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Re: insulin
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2007, 09:12:18 AM »
Who is that, great shape.

BM OUT

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Re: insulin
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2007, 10:50:24 AM »
Well,thats me.Unfortunatley,this year things didnt work out as well as that.Im mostly a powerlifter [942 squat,606bench,788 pull,2303 deadlift]but I like bodybuilding as well.This year I tried to come in waaaaaaay to heavy and really looked crappy.I sould have been about 217 on stage yet I came in at 241 at one show and 233 at the other.I managed to place but was REALLY unhappy with it.I was also trying to recover from a full patela tendon rupture and shattered knee cap so my leg size suffered but Im still in the game trying.Im going back to powerlifting this year and will try another run at bodybuilding in 2009 when Im 45 years old.The insulin question is because a few guys said its good to use it as a bridge drug with the gh,but gh is a bit out of my price range and I just wanted to see if using the insulin alone would help.

trab

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Re: insulin
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2007, 12:39:33 PM »
Well,thats me.Unfortunatley,this year things didnt work out as well as that.Im mostly a powerlifter [942 squat,606bench,788 pull,2303 deadlift]but I like bodybuilding as well.This year I tried to come in waaaaaaay to heavy and really looked crappy.I sould have been about 217 on stage yet I came in at 241 at one show and 233 at the other.I managed to place but was REALLY unhappy with it.I was also trying to recover from a full patela tendon rupture and shattered knee cap so my leg size suffered but Im still in the game trying.Im going back to powerlifting this year and will try another run at bodybuilding in 2009 when Im 45 years old.The insulin question is because a few guys said its good to use it as a bridge drug with the gh,but gh is a bit out of my price range and I just wanted to see if using the insulin alone would help.

Nice photo BM. Nothin' to be unhappy about there bud. Most guys aint ever getting in that kind of shape.
Impressive #s too. I'll be happy w/ a 405 bench.
There does seems to be somekind of a formula with the GH/insulin/IGF  combo & it's timing that can practically change DNA ;D.
That's exaggerating, but... Dorian, Tripple H, Kim at her peak. Also,You ever seen before and after pics of that steroid writer Arthor L Rae?  It's practically like a whole different body in compare to typical AAS results. Prolly individual too.
That's what makes this stuff so fascinating.

Vet

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Re: insulin
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2007, 04:45:26 PM »
You act as though its some unusual occurance.The vast majority of national guys I know use it.If you cant answer the question,save your moral judgements on someone who cares. Hey,I also frequent prostitutes and dont use condoms.Care to give me your moral views on that as well.Either answer the f'n question with facts or dont,but save your judgements for the church pew.
I'm calling bullshit on that.  The real Billy Mimnaugh is supposed to be a happily married man who is supposedly intensly devoted to his wife and son.  That prostitution crap is a statement of an internet punk trying to talk bullshit. 
 
As far as the rest of it goes, learn to read and quit playing tough guy..... I wasn't attacking you or passing judgment on you in any way, and I apologize if it came across that way.  I seriously think (this is coming from my knowledge of medical facts, not just some holier than though attitude) messing with insulin is something that is stupid to do unless you are an insulin dependant diabetic.   I don't care if you are Mr. Olympia or on the verge of breaking Andy Bolton’s numbers.  The "everybody’s doing it" is a dumbass mentality that shows lack of concern about your body and lack of thought as far as preparation for any type of athletic competition you are doing.  And if you want to argue medicine, I'll argue medicine with you. 

Consider the function of insulin:  its a "master hormone" affecting essentially all cells within the body in term of blood glucose metabolism and amino acid uptake.  That’s where the "benefits" of insulin come from for bodybuilders.   But those aside, I think they are far outweighed by the negative effects in a nondiabetic.   The point of taking insulin as a bodybuilder is to essentially induce hypoglycemia---you have to take enough to have an effect.  If you just take a little bit, the body secretes hormones in response to the falling blood glucose levels, effectively negating the effects of the insulin.  When you take enough to induce hypoglycemia, you have the beneficial side effect of amino acid uptake (and other minor effects)---which can lead to muscle growth under the right conditions but you have a potential plethora of negative side effects.

The body has a set point (normoglycemia) where it tries to maintain no matter what.  It also has a biphasic hormonal cascade---one for hyperglycemia (elevated blood glucose) and one for hypoglycemia (below normal).   The overall goal of the body is to make sure the brain is getting the fuel (glucose) it needs.  Insulin is the hormone that is secreted when you are hyperglycemic.  So, say you eat a meal containing simple carbohydrates.  The sugar from that meal is absorbed into the blood stream from the mouth and stomach.  As this sugar enters the blood stream, your blood glucose goes up.  As it goes up, the body responds by secreting insulin.   The body knows exactly how much insulin that it needs to secrete to bring your blood glucose levels back down to normal.  That’s why dietary manipulation is probably the best way of controlling insulin spikes and is much, much safer with fewer negative effects than injecting exogenous insulin. 

Inducing hypoglycemia by taking insulin is more complex.  Hypoglycemia will deplete the body’s glycogen stores as the body breaks down the glycogen in an effort to mobilize glucose and return blood glucose to normal.  This depletion leads to decreased performance in the gym, which leads to decreased stimulation of muscle growth.   I'm also a powerlifter.  I'm an insulin dependant diabetic--and have been for over 20 years and I'm a doctor in a very, very specialized field of medicine.  Having stable blood glucose levels the week prior to a meet is the single most important thing I have to deal with as diabetic.  One episode of severe hypoglycemia will significantly affect my max lifts (ie what I'd do at the meet) for up to 3 days.  So don't take a "little low blood sugar" lightly.  It’s not just a "shaky weak feeling". 

Second, hypoglycemia stimulates the adrenals for epinephrine release as a means of increase circulating glucose within the blood.  Epinephrine (adrenalin) works in two ways.  It directly inhibits the effects of insulin by binding with alpha 1 receptors in the liver, which leads to the phosphorylation of insulin, deactivating it.    So if you take enough insulin to get "shaky and weak" you will not see the benefit of the insulin like you think you will because your body will do everything it can to shut it down in an effort to maintain normal blood glucose levels.  Second, insulin activates Beta receptors in the liver and skeletal muscle, leading to the breakdown of stored glycogen.  The glucose from this is released into the blood stream to stabilize your blood glucose levels at their normal level.  If you take enough insulin, you can seriously deplete the body’s stores of glycogen, leading to flat, weak, appearing and functioning muscles. 

Third, hypoglycemia induces the secretion of glucagon from the alpha cells of the pancreas. Glucagon also leads to the breakdown of stored glycogen, but it also mobilizes free fatty acids and ketoacids in the blood stream to serve in the production of energy and it will affect urea metabolism. 

Now, the secretion of epinephrine and glucagon are the classic stress response you see with the "fight or flight response" that you as a powerlifter should know all too well as you approach a max single.   Think about it, after this "fight or flight" response, you always feel tired.  Why?  Because of what has happened with your glycogen stores and blood glucose.  It’s pretty simple.  It’s virtually impossible to train hard if you are inducing fatigue like this.  The body will have to rest and recooperate, replenishing lost glycogen before you will be at any degree of maximal functionality again.  This will also lead to secretion of cortisol as a result of the "stress" you've induced.   While cortisol has its place in the stress response, it is also a catabolic hormone.

Insulin also has that great side effect of not distinguishing between fat and muscle cells in terms of nutrient uptake.   Insulin will increase fatty acid synthesis.  It essentially forces fat cells to take in blood lipids which are converted to triglycerides.  It also has effects on cholestrol levels.  This has obvious negative cardiovascular effects. 

Insulin forces fat cells to make fatty acid esters and it reduces the conversion of fat cell stores into blood fatty acids---ie it makes the body more likely to store fat because it decreases the breakdown of fat cells.   So what you get with taking insulin is potentially increased bodyfat with any potential muscle growth you get.

I also mentioned the "shaky weak" feeling several times in this post.  What’s that?  It’s a direct result of secretion of epinephrine due to low blood glucose.  Remember, the body’s goal is homeostasis.   It’s going to secrete glucagon and epinephrine in response the injected insulin as the blood glucose drops.  You have to take enough insulin to overcome this homeostatic mechanism which is where things get very, very dangerous. 

The sole source of energy for the brain is glucose from the blood stream.  The body does everything it possibly can to maintain the blood glucose so that there is fuel for the brain.  If your blood glucose becomes low, the brain is one of the first organs to be effected because low blood sugar means the brain is not getting the fuel it needs to function.  If an individual takes enough insulin to stimulate low blood glucose, they risk the possibility of inducing loss of consciousness or seizures, or even death as a result of the insulin depriving the blood of the glucose it needs to work.  You can, in theory, develop permenant brain damage from one severe episode of hypoglycemia.  Thats the dangerous, scary bad part of taking insulin.  Its not just something that will take a few minutes to get over, it can kill you.  Not only that, but say you have one episode of seizures, seizures which were induced as a result of the brain not having enough fuel to function---read part of the brain dying---you will run the risk of irreversable damage from that single episode.  Its thought that brief of mild hypoglycemia may have no lasting effects on the brain, though it can temporarily alter brain responses to additional hypoglycemia.   Severe hypoglycemia can produce lasting damage. This can include impairment of cognitive function, motor control, or even consciousness. The likelihood of permanent brain damage from any given instance of severe hypoglycemia is difficult to estimate, and depends on many factors including age, recent blood and brain glucose experience, concurrent problems such as hypoxia, and availability of alternative fuels.
   
There, did that answer your question?  That’s why I think taking insulin is stupid.  Its got its positive effects, but the negative (ie exhaustion, fat deposition, and potential death) far outweigh the positives.  Insulin is something I would not mess with if I wasn't a diabetic. 

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Re: insulin
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2007, 05:19:07 PM »
Thank you vet that was a very well written and easy to understand explanation.  You have a great knack for being able to take a very complex subject as this and explain it for all to understand, a quality not all docs have.  good job!

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Re: insulin
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2007, 05:20:26 PM »
Nice post vet.

trab

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Re: insulin
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2007, 05:46:50 PM »
Hey Vet-
I don't think you have EVER come across as "Preachy" or thrown moral/value judgments at chemicals.
I allways appreciate the info here from you. Most guys don't realize how much vets know. And as far as Drugs go, I bet you guys got the stuff...  it's got to take something awefull strong for a elephant or Rhino, huh?

One thing is for sure, your not going to allways be able to talk young guys out of doing stupid stuff. ALL you can do is throw out the facts.  Many young guys don't respond to simply being told DONT DO XXX!
Other methods are often more effective. I don't care who they are, I don't want a insulin casualty.   

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Re: insulin
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2007, 10:02:22 PM »


The point of taking insulin as a bodybuilder is to essentially induce hypoglycemia---you have to take enough to have an effect.  If you just take a little bit, the body secretes hormones in response to the falling blood glucose levels, effectively negating the effects of the insulin.  When you take enough to induce hypoglycemia, you have the beneficial side effect of amino acid uptake (and other minor effects)---which can lead to muscle growth under the right conditions but you have a potential plethora of negative side effects.

Inducing hypoglycemia by taking insulin is more complex.  Hypoglycemia will deplete the body’s glycogen stores as the body breaks down the glycogen in an effort to mobilize glucose and return blood glucose to normal.  This depletion leads to decreased performance in the gym, which leads to decreased stimulation of muscle growth.   I'm also a powerlifter.  I'm an insulin dependant diabetic--and have been for over 20 years and I'm a doctor in a very, very specialized field of medicine.  Having stable blood glucose levels the week prior to a meet is the single most important thing I have to deal with as diabetic.  One episode of severe hypoglycemia will significantly affect my max lifts (ie what I'd do at the meet) for up to 3 days.  So don't take a "little low blood sugar" lightly.  It’s not just a "shaky weak feeling". 



So you're saying the taking insulin has no benefits to a bodybuilder? If you take too little to go hypoglycemic, you're body just negates it's effects. And if you take enough to go hypoglcemic you deplete your glycogen levels?

I'm having a hard time believing that insulin has no benefits for a bodybuilder. I've read a lot of articles that suggest that it does not take long to replenish glycogen. Also, what hormones does the body produce to negate it's effects, it seems that if you have too low blood sugar you will either crave simple carbs or your body will release glycogen.

Vet

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Re: insulin
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2007, 11:51:34 PM »
So you're saying the taking insulin has no benefits to a bodybuilder? If you take too little to go hypoglycemic, you're body just negates it's effects. And if you take enough to go hypoglcemic you deplete your glycogen levels?

I'm having a hard time believing that insulin has no benefits for a bodybuilder. I've read a lot of articles that suggest that it does not take long to replenish glycogen. Also, what hormones does the body produce to negate it's effects, it seems that if you have too low blood sugar you will either crave simple carbs or your body will release glycogen.

Reread what I wrote......  In a nutshell taking insulin makes no sense to me for athletic performance unless you are an insulin dependant diabetic.  Exogenous insulin results in a decrease in blood glucose.  Low blood glucose results in the liver phosphorylating and deactivating circulating insulin and in the release of epinephrine, glucagon, and cortisol, which releases stored glycogen, increasing blood glucose and essential eliminates the effects of the insulin that has been taken.  Depletion of glycogen stores is something you want to do in the gym through exercise, especially if you are already carb depleted as a result of carb restrictions in your diet (which most of the bodybuilders dinking around with insulin already are) not something you want to be doing chemically.  Its also dangerous because you can die orhave permenant brain damage if you deprive the brain of the necessary fuel it needs.  Glycogen depletion leads to exhaustion, which means decreased performance in the gym.  Not only that but the very effects of insulin on the body is to promote not only muscle gain, but also for the body to retain body fat by preventing fat breakdown.  That doesn't make much sense for a bodybuilder. 

Vet

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Re: insulin
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2007, 12:07:43 AM »
Hey Vet-
I don't think you have EVER come across as "Preachy" or thrown moral/value judgments at chemicals.
I allways appreciate the info here from you. Most guys don't realize how much vets know. And as far as Drugs go, I bet you guys got the stuff...  it's got to take something awefull strong for a elephant or Rhino, huh?

One thing is for sure, your not going to allways be able to talk young guys out of doing stupid stuff. ALL you can do is throw out the facts.  Many young guys don't respond to simply being told DONT DO XXX!
Other methods are often more effective. I don't care who they are, I don't want a insulin casualty.   

LOL...  Rhinos rule.  ;D


Thats one of the reasons I hang around this board.  I'm a drug free powerlifter, but I find it entertaining some of the crazy crap people come up with injecting into themselves.   No matter what I post, there will always be someone who will argue that XX is doing it and XX is getting by with it AND its the sole reason they won such and such a bodybuilding/powerlifting contest AND they've never seen any negative side effects.   Thats human stupidity.  And honestly, I find it entertaining.

My residency research was in management of diabetes in avian patients (some day I'll get that paper published  :-[ ) and I've done quite a bit of research in management of blood glucose across multiple species, including mammals (rodents, primates, reptiles, and hindgut fermenting mammals).  The physiology behind glucose metabolism is complex, but at the same time, its realitively simple and essentially the same for all vertebrate species.  Insulin lowers blood glucose.  Epinephrine, Glucagon, and Cortisol raise blood glucose.   The goal of the body is to maintain normal blood glucose levels because the brain needs glucose for normal function.  If you dink with things too much, and overextend the bodies abilities to maintain homeostasis, you will deprive the brain of fuel and in doing so, may kill yourself.   

I've lost consciousness from hypoglycemia secondary to my diabetes.   Its not fun waking up in a pile of little kids bicycles in WalMart missing 30 minutes of your life that you'll never get back or nearly getting arrested threatening to break a cops arms off and shove them up their ass because your blood sugar is low and your brain isn't functioning right. 

In terms of bodybuilding, its far smarter to manipulate endogenous insulin secretion by stimulating insulin secretion with simple carbohydrate meals post intensive exercise session than it is to inject insulin.   

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Re: insulin
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2007, 04:04:34 AM »
Thanks for the response.That was what I expected from the beggining.The reason I got pissed off is because so many times on the forums you get guys who just give sarcastic responses or foolish warnings with no reasoned arguments.As far as the prostitution thing,that was many,many years ago.Im 43 now and barely have enough energy to train myself and my son,eat,work,spend time with my wife to even  try and cheat on my wife.So,while Ive been known to lead a reckless life,that was many years ago,now I have one foot in the grave and the other on a bannana peel.

Vet

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Re: insulin
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2007, 12:34:40 PM »
Thanks for the response.That was what I expected from the beggining.The reason I got pissed off is because so many times on the forums you get guys who just give sarcastic responses or foolish warnings with no reasoned arguments.As far as the prostitution thing,that was many,many years ago.Im 43 now and barely have enough energy to train myself and my son,eat,work,spend time with my wife to even  try and cheat on my wife.So,while Ive been known to lead a reckless life,that was many years ago,now I have one foot in the grave and the other on a bannana peel.

Dude, its all good.  Let me know if you have any other questions. 

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Re: insulin
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2007, 07:59:33 PM »
Reread what I wrote......  In a nutshell taking insulin makes no sense to me for athletic performance unless you are an insulin dependant diabetic.  Exogenous insulin results in a decrease in blood glucose.  Low blood glucose results in the liver phosphorylating and deactivating circulating insulin and in the release of epinephrine, glucagon, and cortisol, which releases stored glycogen, increasing blood glucose and essential eliminates the effects of the insulin that has been taken.  Depletion of glycogen stores is something you want to do in the gym through exercise, especially if you are already carb depleted as a result of carb restrictions in your diet (which most of the bodybuilders dinking around with insulin already are) not something you want to be doing chemically.  Its also dangerous because you can die orhave permenant brain damage if you deprive the brain of the necessary fuel it needs.  Glycogen depletion leads to exhaustion, which means decreased performance in the gym.  Not only that but the very effects of insulin on the body is to promote not only muscle gain, but also for the body to retain body fat by preventing fat breakdown.  That doesn't make much sense for a bodybuilder. 

So all the pro bodybuilders who have been using insulin since the early 90s have been misinformed? When I take insulin, I get hungry and eat more than usual. It doesn't just increase my appetite while on it, but for the rest of the day I am hungrier than usual. If glycogen is being released into my blood stream negating insulin's effects, then why am I hungry? Also, if you take insulin post-workout, you have a whole 24 hours to restore your glycogen.

They're a lot of articles stating that insulin is highly anti-catabolic and it is the main reason you want to increase it post-workout when you are in a catabolic state. If it promotes cortisol, then it is not catabolic, so these articles are wrong?

Also, isn't the levels of insulin that most bodybuilders take the equivalent of drinking a Big Gulp from 711? Why don't people who drink soda pop have the same problems as people taking exogenous insulin?

My main fear of insulin is not hypoglycemic shock but becoming diabetic. I have yet to read any good explanation of how this could occur.

Vet

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Re: insulin
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2007, 08:36:04 PM »
So all the pro bodybuilders who have been using insulin since the early 90s have been misinformed? When I take insulin, I get hungry and eat more than usual. It doesn't just increase my appetite while on it, but for the rest of the day I am hungrier than usual. If glycogen is being released into my blood stream negating insulin's effects, then why am I hungry? Also, if you take insulin post-workout, you have a whole 24 hours to restore your glycogen.

Ok, this is just my opinion, but have you noticed how bodybuilders since the mid 1990s have started to look like pure crap compared to how they looked in the late 1980s in terms of overall health, muscle fullness, and general appearance?  Have you ever stopped to think about that?  Not only that, but HGH raises blood glucose levels.  I've wondered that maybe the insulin was offset by the HGH they were taking, but I'll be honest, I don't know that answer. 

The hunger you feel from taking insulin should subside as soon as your blood glucose levels return to normal.   If it persists for hours--ie all day as you say, I have to wonder if there isnt' something else going on in your body or if you aren't totally screwing up your blood glucose levels.  Have you ever tried to monitor your glucose levels?  You might scare yourself. 

And as far as the 24 hours go... .thats not long enough for a case of profound hypoglycemia.  You need at least 48 hours to return to normal for maximal effort performance---I'm saying this from my experiences as a powerlifter.   

Quote
They're a lot of articles stating that insulin is highly anti-catabolic and it is the main reason you want to increase it post-workout when you are in a catabolic state. If it promotes cortisol, then it is not catabolic, so these articles are wrong?

Whos articles are you reading? Are the medical referenced articles (some of which I'll be the first to say seem to be pure bullshit if you consider basic physiology) or are they some "experts" opinion published in a bodybuilding magazine designed to sell supplements?  Seriously.  I've watched the supplement industry go apeshit over the last 20 years.  I don't believe very much at all of what I read in most bodybuilding magazines anymore because most of it seems to be "5 page add reports".   

Insulin is not "anti-catabolic" per se.  It will promote the uptake of amino acids and it increases fatty acid synthesis But it has that great side effect of not distinguishing between fat and muscle cells in terms of nutrient uptake.   Insulin essentially forces fat cells to take in blood lipids which are converted to triglycerides.  In a nutshell, insulin can potentially make you fat if you are taking it in exogenous form. 

Insulin forces fat cells to make fatty acid esters and it reduces the conversion of fat cell stores into blood fatty acids---ie it makes the body more likely to store fat because it decreases the breakdown of fat cells.   So what you get with taking insulin is potentially increased bodyfat with any potential muscle growth you get.



Quote
Also, isn't the levels of insulin that most bodybuilders take the equivalent of drinking a Big Gulp from 711? Why don't people who drink soda pop have the same problems as people taking exogenous insulin?

My main fear of insulin is not hypoglycemic shock but becoming diabetic. I have yet to read any good explanation of how this could occur.

You are missing something very important here from what I can see with your questions.... I think manipulating your endogenous insulin is something that can benefit you as a bodybuilder and an athlete.... its the exogenous injected  insulin that has great potential to cause major problems.   The body will do everything it can to maintain normal blood glucose levels.  Thats where you get into problems.  Say you inject "as much as the body secretes after drinking a big gulp from 7/11".  Do you have any idea how much that is?  No one knows exactly how much because of variation in individual.  Every single insulin dependant diabetic I know of has slightly different insulin needs. 

The body has its own setpoint, that injecting insulin may totally screw up.   You need to understand this.   There is a HUGE difference between what your body will secrete in response to a high simple carbohydrate meal post workout and you slamming 10 units of Regular post workout when you are already glycogen depleted. 

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Re: insulin
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2007, 06:48:40 PM »

The body has its own setpoint, that injecting insulin may totally screw up.   You need to understand this.   There is a HUGE difference between what your body will secrete in response to a high simple carbohydrate meal post workout and you slamming 10 units of Regular post workout when you are already glycogen depleted. 

Okay, everything you've been saying has the ring of truth to it.

Here is what I thought was happening:
Post-workout I would pin some slin and have a protein/maltodextrin/dextrose shake. The insulin would push the shake into the muscles. About an hour later I would feel a little dizzy (mild hypoglycemic shock) and I would eat. The slin would push that meal into the muscles. I would be hungrier than usual after that because the slin caused all the nutrients to be used so it was like I hadn't eaten those meals at all.

Now, I'm thinking that maybe that isn't what was going on at all, but it sure seemed like that is what was happening. Also, when I think of it, I haven't really heard of many bodybuilders doing slin without hgh. As far as my source on slin being anti-catabolic, my main source on that was some t-nation articles which usually cite scientific journals. The article was on post-workout nutrition.

Vet

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Re: insulin
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2007, 08:24:40 PM »
Okay, everything you've been saying has the ring of truth to it.

Here is what I thought was happening:
Post-workout I would pin some slin and have a protein/maltodextrin/dextrose shake. The insulin would push the shake into the muscles. About an hour later I would feel a little dizzy (mild hypoglycemic shock) and I would eat. The slin would push that meal into the muscles. I would be hungrier than usual after that because the slin caused all the nutrients to be used so it was like I hadn't eaten those meals at all.

Now, I'm thinking that maybe that isn't what was going on at all, but it sure seemed like that is what was happening. Also, when I think of it, I haven't really heard of many bodybuilders doing slin without hgh. As far as my source on slin being anti-catabolic, my main source on that was some t-nation articles which usually cite scientific journals. The article was on post-workout nutrition.

OK, you were close in terms of the effects of insulin, but its really not that simple----and this is the main reason I say DO NOT use insulin unless you are a diabetic. 

This is what I see happening in your body with this---and again, I think this is where you were missing it in terms of exogenous insulin function and I really think you were playing a dangerous game:
Quote
Here is what I thought was happening:
Post-workout I would pin some slin and have a protein/maltodextrin/dextrose shake. The insulin would push the shake into the muscles. About an hour later I would feel a little dizzy (mild hypoglycemic shock) and I would eat. The slin would push that meal into the muscles. I would be hungrier than usual after that because the slin caused all the nutrients to be used so it was like I hadn't eaten those meals at all. 

OK, lets assume you were using Regular (R)--which is relatively cheap at about $28.00/bottle from WalMart and doesn't require a prescription in many states.  When R is injected, it will have absolutely no effect until its absorbed into the blood stream.   If you inject it straight into the blood stream, you will cause your blood glucose to drop amazingly fast as that insulin is distributed throughout the body.  IV Insulin is a very good way to commit suicide (I did it onetime by accident when I was 12 years old right after I'd been diagnosed with diabetes---accidentally taking a days dose of Regular and NPH insulin into a stomach vein because I wasn't paying attention to what I was doing as I took my AM shot.   My blood sugar was 168 mg/dl (normal is roughly 70-120) immediately before I took that shot.  I was nearly unconscious on the floor within 15 minutes with a blood glucose less than 35 mg/dl that took multiple vials of dextrose paste to get back to within the normal range.  Then I somongyied into sky high blood glucose levels the rest of the day.  I'm lucky my mom was there to shove dextrose suspension down my throat.   I would have died otherwise). 

So once you inject the insulin subcutaneously (like you are supposed to do) its absorbed over a period of time.   If you give the insulin intramuscularly, its still not an instantanous effect, its absorbed over a period of time.  Even if you use the new, ultrafast insulins, they still don't have an instantaneous effect---and honestly, there is much less margin of error for inducing hypoglycemia with those insulins.   

Regular has traditionally been stated as having a time to beginnin action post injection of 30 minutes.  It then "Peaks" in activity at roughly 2-4 hours after that injection and will no longer function (ie is eliminated from the body) after roughly 8-10 hours.    The body releases insulin directly into the blood stream and its time to effect is virtually instantaneous (within minutes)---this is how the body maintains its goal of stable blood glucose levels. 

SO, if you have a hard workout, you will deplete glycogen stores, lowering your blood glucose.  From there you take a slug of insulin.   Then drink a dextrose drink.  The dextrose drink wil stimulate endogenous insulin production almost instantly becuase the dextrose is absorbed across the mucous membranes of the mouth and the stomach.   So, your body works to deal with the dextrose you drank long before the insulin you injected ever even begins to take effect.   However, once that insulin begins to take effect, you already have a high circulating natural insulin as a result of the dextrose drink.  Your blood glucose will start to decrease.   In response to this, the body deactivates circulating insulin by phosphorylation and may or may not secrete stress hormones (epinephrine, glucagon, cortisol) to maintain the normal blood glucose levels its goal is to maintain---remember in terms of blood glucose, the body will maintain "normal" at all costs so that the brain has fuel to function.  You were correct in thinking that you would have increased uptake of amino acids/nutritents, but its into BOTH muscle AND fat cells because insulin doesn't distinguish between cell types ...and because of the exogenous insulin, you will have decreased body fat breakdown and you've induced the body to try to struggle to maintain its normal levels.  On a side note, you also may want to talk with a physian about testing your blood glucose and maybe testing for hypoglycemia via a GTT.  As an insulin dependant diabetic, who has been on insulin injections for more than 20 years, your response seems prolonged for some reason. 

As your blood glucose drops from the insulin injection, one of two things is likely to happen.  Either A) the body maintains homeostasis and you have no effect other than placebo from the injected insulin or B) you go into a viscious yo-yo because you overextend the ability of the body to maintain its goal of keeping the blood glucose normal---so the brain has the fuel it needs.   The exogenous insulin will stimulate shutdown of circulating insulin as a result of dropping blood glucose and the decreasing blood glucose will stimulate your appetite.  If you eat a meal high in carbohydrates, the body will secrete insulin to deal with the increased blood glucose, HOWEVER, remember you have a slug of insulin being absorbed into the body already at a rate the body has no control over.  So you can then yo-yo your blood glucose back down, leading to secretion of epinephrine, glucagon, and cortisol, which leads to breakdown of stored glycogen and the body working to stop the effects of the circulating insulin.  This may have been the cause of your prolonged hunger, but its hard to say unless you were monitoring blood glucose levels closely.   Also, if you are severely glycogen depleted, you have insulin being absorbed that may overextend the abilities of the stress hormones to release stored glycogen... so your blood glucose continues to drop because the body continues to absorb that injection of insulin that you took---there is no way to take it back once you put it in.... and a little bit of your brain dies (ie you loose consciousness, have seizures, or die) because it doesn't have the fuel it needs to function normally. 

Its a crazy, vicious cycle that I really think is stupid to even remotely get involved with.   The bottom line is the body is going to maintain its normal blood glucose levels no matter what.  And by messing with its ability to maintain that normal level, you are possibly inducing a plethora of negatve effects. 

Quote
Now, I'm thinking that maybe that isn't what was going on at all, but it sure seemed like that is what was happening. Also, when I think of it, I haven't really heard of many bodybuilders doing slin without hgh. As far as my source on slin being anti-catabolic, my main source on that was some t-nation articles which usually cite scientific journals. The article was on post-workout nutrition.

Ok, I havent read those specific T-nation articles, but I'm willing to bet those articles were talking about ENDOGEOUS insulin, not the EXOGENOUS insulin you were injecting.   If they were talking about exogenous insulin, someone is missing something.   The more is better mentality of anaboic steroid use has no place when considering taking other hormones, including insulin and thyroid.   Again, the effects of insulin in terms of amino acid uptake makes it  worth considering manipulating endogenous insulin as a potential good thing for muscle growth and performance.  You totally screw things up by injecting insulin on top of the bodies normal production unless you are a diabetic, in which case you are replacing something the body is deficient in.  The stress hormones secreted secondary to hypoglycemia have negative effects sufficient enough to cause major problems   

Luv2Hurt

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Re: insulin
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2007, 05:32:01 AM »

You totally screw things up by injecting insulin on top of the bodies normal production unless you are a diabetic, in which case you are replacing something the body is deficient in. 

Vet how do you feel about the above statement with the words in BOLD above, replaced by "steroids" and "hypogonadal" respectivley?

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Re: insulin
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2007, 08:38:40 AM »
Vet how do you feel about the above statement with the words in BOLD above, replaced by "steroids" and "hypogonadal" respectivley?

intresting

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Re: insulin
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2007, 03:53:05 PM »
Vet how do you feel about the above statement with the words in BOLD above, replaced by "steroids" and "hypogonadal" respectivley?

LOL.  Take what you want, its your body.    ;)

The difference between insulin and anabolic steroids---using testosterone as an example, is that the body will do everything it can to maintain blood glucose levels as close to the normal range as possible to ensure that the brain has sufficient glucose for normal function.  The body has two hormone cascades directly responsible for this---insulin to lower blood glucose and epinephrine/glucagon/cortisol (the stress hormones) to raise it.  In a nondiabetic these hormones work in direct opposition of each other to maintain blood glucose levels that are "normal". 

Testosterone doesn't work exactly that way--with the physiological need for maintaining such tight control.  The body doesn't have to maintain as tight of control on androgens simply because of the nature of their effects---ie your brain won't stop working and you will die if there is too much testosterone.  In the body, LH secretion from the pituitary gland stimulates testosterone production by the Leydig cells of the testicle.  From there the testosterone enters the blood stream, where the majority of it is bound up by Sex Hormone Binding Globulin.  Its the free testosterone that binds with the T receptor on the target cells leading to its effects.  Testosterone is also broken down to DHT and estrogen, which are picked up by their respective receptors and exert cellular effects. 

In the body, the effects of freeTestosterone are really controlled by SHBG and by the number of cellular T receptors which are available to bind with freeT.  The body will increase or decrease production of SHBG (and to a degree the number of T receptors) in a relatively delicate balance to maintain "normal" levels of circulating Testosterone, however it appears as if there is much more latitude with what the body will accept as "Normal".   If you choose to take these sort of drugs, you ideally need to take the dose that results in all available receptors being occupied by free T yet does not stimulate the production of additional SHBG.  I'm not sure if anyone knows what that amount is or even if there is a reliable way to determine it considering the variation from one person to the other---ie my normal test levels may be much, much higher than some 145 lb twig's an still be normal for me.       

I've also wondered about the mega-mega doses of anabolics that some people seem to get by with (IE taking 1000mgs + of test/week) where one person seems to respond like crazy, yet the other will have little to no response if the person with little response has decreased T receptor numbers or increased amounts of SHBG (which will bind with the excess testosterone you are injecting as the esther breaks down and begins to circulate in  the blood as free T).   There has to be a point that the body tries to maintain homeostasis.   

Luv2Hurt

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Re: insulin
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2007, 06:36:22 PM »
LOL.  Take what you want, its your body.    ;)

The difference between insulin and anabolic steroids---using testosterone as an example, is that the body will do everything it can to maintain blood glucose levels as close to the normal range as possible to ensure that the brain has sufficient glucose for normal function.  The body has two hormone cascades directly responsible for this---insulin to lower blood glucose and epinephrine/glucagon/cortisol (the stress hormones) to raise it.  In a nondiabetic these hormones work in direct opposition of each other to maintain blood glucose levels that are "normal". 

Testosterone doesn't work exactly that way--with the physiological need for maintaining such tight control.  The body doesn't have to maintain as tight of control on androgens simply because of the nature of their effects---ie your brain won't stop working and you will die if there is too much testosterone.  In the body, LH secretion from the pituitary gland stimulates testosterone production by the Leydig cells of the testicle.  From there the testosterone enters the blood stream, where the majority of it is bound up by Sex Hormone Binding Globulin.  Its the free testosterone that binds with the T receptor on the target cells leading to its effects.  Testosterone is also broken down to DHT and estrogen, which are picked up by their respective receptors and exert cellular effects. 

In the body, the effects of freeTestosterone are really controlled by SHBG and by the number of cellular T receptors which are available to bind with freeT.  The body will increase or decrease production of SHBG (and to a degree the number of T receptors) in a relatively delicate balance to maintain "normal" levels of circulating Testosterone, however it appears as if there is much more latitude with what the body will accept as "Normal".   If you choose to take these sort of drugs, you ideally need to take the dose that results in all available receptors being occupied by free T yet does not stimulate the production of additional SHBG.  I'm not sure if anyone knows what that amount is or even if there is a reliable way to determine it considering the variation from one person to the other---ie my normal test levels may be much, much higher than some 145 lb twig's an still be normal for me.       

I've also wondered about the mega-mega doses of anabolics that some people seem to get by with (IE taking 1000mgs + of test/week) where one person seems to respond like crazy, yet the other will have little to no response if the person with little response has decreased T receptor numbers or increased amounts of SHBG (which will bind with the excess testosterone you are injecting as the esther breaks down and begins to circulate in  the blood as free T).   There has to be a point that the body tries to maintain homeostasis.   

I wonder if there is a way to increase SHBG?  And what other "can of worms" that would open up?

It has always amazed me how complex the human body is.  Its not like you can just change one thing without causing all kinds of other responses.  This must be why medicine is so very difficult to do well.