Gonzales goes bye-bye.

[Decker]

You must have a long list of evil people:

- Every member of the House and Senate that endorsed "illegal/unconstitutional wars" after they started.
- The lawyers, judges, and members of prior administrations (I think?) who thought "illegal spying" was actually legal.
- Every member of Congress who stripped foreign terrorists of habeas corpus by voting for the Military Commissions Act.  By the way, how can it be illegal if it's now the law of the land? 

I do have a long list of people doing evil.

Show me the judges and lawyers and members of prior administrations that thought FISA just didn't apply to the president.

Stripping of habeas corpus was done prior to any congressional grant of authority.

[Dos Equis]

I do have a long list of people doing evil.

Show me the judges and lawyers and members of prior administrations that thought FISA just didn't apply to the president.

Stripping of habeas corpus was done prior to any congressional grant of authority.

My list is pretty short.    Well, actually it's pretty long if you consider all of the people working for the tobacco industry. . . .

Here you go:

Executive Orders

Executive orders by other administrations including Clinton's [3] and Carter's [4] authorized the Attorney General to perform warrantless searches for purposes of foreign intelligence threats. These Executive Orders were exercises of executive power under Article II consistent with FISA.

. . .

Clinton Administration
On July 14, 1994 President Clinton's Deputy Attorney General and later 9/11 Commission member Jamie Gorelick testified to the Senate Intelligence Committee that “The Department of Justice believes, and the case law supports, that the president has inherent authority to conduct warrantless physical searches for foreign intelligence purposes…and that the president may, as has been done, delegate this authority to the Attorney General.” This “inherent authority” was used to search the home of CIA spy Aldrich Ames without a warrant. "It is important to understand," Gorelick continued, "that the rules and methodology for criminal searches are inconsistent with the collection of foreign intelligence and would unduly frustrate the president in carrying out his foreign intelligence responsibilities."[9]

. . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrantless_searches_in_the_United_States

Now, I disagree with warrantless wiretaps, but there has clearly been a difference of opinion on whether they are constitutional.  I don't think people who advocate warrantless wiretaps are evil.  They're just wrong. 

[Decker]

My list is pretty short.    Well, actually it's pretty long if you consider all of the people working for the tobacco industry. . . .

Here you go:

Executive Orders

Executive orders by other administrations including Clinton's [3] and Carter's [4] authorized the Attorney General to perform warrantless searches for purposes of foreign intelligence threats. These Executive Orders were exercises of executive power under Article II consistent with FISA.

. . .

Clinton Administration
On July 14, 1994 President Clinton's Deputy Attorney General and later 9/11 Commission member Jamie Gorelick testified to the Senate Intelligence Committee that “The Department of Justice believes, and the case law supports, that the president has inherent authority to conduct warrantless physical searches for foreign intelligence purposes…and that the president may, as has been done, delegate this authority to the Attorney General.” This “inherent authority” was used to search the home of CIA spy Aldrich Ames without a warrant. "It is important to understand," Gorelick continued, "that the rules and methodology for criminal searches are inconsistent with the collection of foreign intelligence and would unduly frustrate the president in carrying out his foreign intelligence responsibilities."[9]

. . . .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrantless_searches_in_the_United_States

Now, I disagree with warrantless wiretaps, but there has clearly been a difference of opinion on whether they are constitutional.  I don't think people who advocate warrantless wiretaps are evil.  They're just wrong. 

Clinton and Carter never authorized warrantless spying on americans.  Never.

Here's what Clinton actually signed:  http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/eo/eo-12949.htm

Here's the relevant portion:  Section 1. Pursuant to section 302(a)(1) [50 U.S.C. 1822(a)] of the [Foreign Intelligence Surveillance] Act, the Attorney General is authorized to approve physical searches, without a court order, to acquire foreign intelligence information for periods of up to one year, if the Attorney General makes the certifications required by that section.

That section requires the Attorney General to certify is the search will not involve “the premises, information, material, or property of a United States person.” That means U.S. citizens or anyone inside of the United States.  http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode50/usc_sec_50_00001822----000-.html

Here's what Carter actually signed: http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/eo12139.htm

Here's the relevant portion:  1-101. Pursuant to Section 102(a)(1) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1802(a)), the Attorney General is authorized to approve electronic surveillance to acquire foreign intelligence information without a court order, but only if the Attorney General makes the certifications required by that Section.

What the Attorney General has to certify under that section is that the surveillance will not contain “the contents of any communication to which a United States person is a party.” So again, no U.S. persons are involved.
Source:  http://thinkprogress.org/2005/12/20/drudge-fact-check

Bush ignored the FISA requirement that spying on any US citizen requires a warrant either before or w/in 3 days of the act.

Bush violated FISA.  Clinton and Carter did not.

[Dos Equis]

Clinton and Carter never authorized warrantless spying on americans.  Never.

Here's what Clinton actually signed:  http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/eo/eo-12949.htm

Here's the relevant portion:  Section 1. Pursuant to section 302(a)(1) [50 U.S.C. 1822(a)] of the [Foreign Intelligence Surveillance] Act, the Attorney General is authorized to approve physical searches, without a court order, to acquire foreign intelligence information for periods of up to one year, if the Attorney General makes the certifications required by that section.

That section requires the Attorney General to certify is the search will not involve “the premises, information, material, or property of a United States person.” That means U.S. citizens or anyone inside of the United States.  http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode50/usc_sec_50_00001822----000-.html

Here's what Carter actually signed: http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/eo12139.htm

Here's the relevant portion:  1-101. Pursuant to Section 102(a)(1) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1802(a)), the Attorney General is authorized to approve electronic surveillance to acquire foreign intelligence information without a court order, but only if the Attorney General makes the certifications required by that Section.

What the Attorney General has to certify under that section is that the surveillance will not contain “the contents of any communication to which a United States person is a party.” So again, no U.S. persons are involved.
Source:  http://thinkprogress.org/2005/12/20/drudge-fact-check

Bush ignored the FISA requirement that spying on any US citizen requires a warrant either before or w/in 3 days of the act.

Bush violated FISA.  Clinton and Carter did not.

So this is wrong? 

On July 14, 1994 President Clinton's Deputy Attorney General and later 9/11 Commission member Jamie Gorelick testified to the Senate Intelligence Committee that “The Department of Justice believes, and the case law supports, that the president has inherent authority to conduct warrantless physical searches for foreign intelligence purposes…and that the president may, as has been done, delegate this authority to the Attorney General.” This “inherent authority” was used to search the home of CIA spy Aldrich Ames without a warrant.

Clinton didn't use his "inherent authority" to search the home of an American citizen without a warrant? 

[Decker]

So this is wrong? 

On July 14, 1994 President Clinton's Deputy Attorney General and later 9/11 Commission member Jamie Gorelick testified to the Senate Intelligence Committee that “The Department of Justice believes, and the case law supports, that the president has inherent authority to conduct warrantless physical searches for foreign intelligence purposes…and that the president may, as has been done, delegate this authority to the Attorney General.” This “inherent authority” was used to search the home of CIA spy Aldrich Ames without a warrant.

Clinton didn't use his "inherent authority" to search the home of an American citizen without a warrant? 

I must have missed the part of her testimony where she claimed that the presidential directive re warrantless wiretapping which Clinton signed applied to US citizens.

[Dos Equis]

I must have missed the part of her testimony where she claimed that the presidential directive re warrantless wiretapping which Clinton signed applied to US citizens.

Now you lost me.  Isn't the part of the reason you believe Bush and Gonzales are evil based on warrantless wiretaps? 

[Decker]

Now you lost me.  Isn't the part of the reason you believe Bush and Gonzales are evil based on warrantless wiretaps? 

The warrant requirement for FISA applies to acts of spying on americans.  Warrantless spying on americans is what is illegal. 

The US gov. can spy on foreigners w/out warrants.

For the record, the FISA violations were illegal and immoral.  Torture and avoidance of congressional oversight are the evils these men did.

[Dos Equis]

The warrant requirement for FISA applies to acts of spying on americans.  Warrantless spying on americans is what is illegal. 

The US gov. can spy on foreigners w/out warrants.

For the record, the FISA violations were illegal and immoral.  Torture and avoidance of congressional oversight are the evils these men did.

So how do you classify Clinton's warrantless spying on Ames?  I really don't see a logical distinction between the spying done by Clinton and the spying done by Bush.  (I disagree with both.) 

We're kinda going in circles, but the things you classify as evil (the wars, habeas, etc.) were condoned by a whole lot of people.  It's really just a policy/legal disagreement, not good vs. evil.  But I suspect we will have to agree to disagree.   

[Decker]

So how do you classify Clinton's warrantless spying on Ames?  I really don't see a logical distinction between the spying done by Clinton and the spying done by Bush.  (I disagree with both.) 

We're kinda going in circles, but the things you classify as evil (the wars, habeas, etc.) were condoned by a whole lot of people.  It's really just a policy/legal disagreement, not good vs. evil.  But I suspect we will have to agree to disagree.   

You're misreading the application of FISA.  Under Clinton, FISA had no application to physical searches.  Gorelick (Clinton's) assertion that the president has the power to conduct physical searches for foreign intelligence purposes is true.  But the Clinton administration was certainly not asserting that the president is not subject to FISA.

He clearly is.

After '94, Clinton supported Congressionally approved legislation subjecting physical searches to FISA.

The Ames investigation took place before the change in the law were made official.

So neither Clinton nor Carter violated FISA.

Only president Bush committed that felony.

[Decker]

So how do you classify Clinton's warrantless spying on Ames?  I really don't see a logical distinction between the spying done by Clinton and the spying done by Bush.  (I disagree with both.) 

We're kinda going in circles, but the things you classify as evil (the wars, habeas, etc.) were condoned by a whole lot of people.  It's really just a policy/legal disagreement, not good vs. evil.  But I suspect we will have to agree to disagree.   

What is evil?  As I pointed out, in the political arena, the constitution is our ten commandments.  Bush has done all he can, w/ AG's help, to avoid any congressional oversight of the official discharge of his presidential duties.  That is the case with FISA and torture. 

This is not just a policy disagreement Beach Bum.  These transgressions go to the heart of our country's ideals:  checks and balances of the powers of government and accountability to the democratically elected reps of Congress.

[Dos Equis]

You're misreading the application of FISA.  Under Clinton, FISA had no application to physical searches.  Gorelick (Clinton's) assertion that the president has the power to conduct physical searches for foreign intelligence purposes is true.  But the Clinton administration was certainly not asserting that the president is not subject to FISA.

He clearly is.

After '94, Clinton supported Congressionally approved legislation subjecting physical searches to FISA.

The Ames investigation took place before the change in the law were made official.

So neither Clinton nor Carter violated FISA.

Only president Bush committed that felony.

I understand.  My point is both approved warrantless spying.  If your issue is with obeying the law, that is one thing.  If your issue is warrantless spying, both administrations did it. 

[Dos Equis]

What is evil?  As I pointed out, in the political arena, the constitution is our ten commandments.  Bush has done all he can, w/ AG's help, to avoid any congressional oversight of the official discharge of his presidential duties.  That is the case with FISA and torture. 

This is not just a policy disagreement Beach Bum.  These transgressions go to the heart of our country's ideals:  checks and balances of the powers of government and accountability to the democratically reps of Congress.

Checks and balances works just fine.  Bush got checked by the Supreme Court.  He did what he thought was "legal" in an attempt to protect American citizens.  The Supreme Court told him to stop.  He did.  System worked. 

And Congress actually approved of one of things you consider evil (taking away habeas from suspected foreign terrorists). 

[Decker]

I understand.  My point is both approved warrantless spying.  If your issue is with obeying the law, that is one thing.  If your issue is warrantless spying, both administrations did it. 

No they both did not spy without a warrant.

A physical search of a suspected spy is not under the umbrella of FISA at that time.  Clinton is in the clear.

Bush's spying on Americans without a warrant is a direct violation of FISA.  The FISA law was created exactly for the kind of abuse of power that Bush authorized.

The two instances are entirely different and the factual details make a difference.

[Decker]

Checks and balances works just fine.  Bush got checked by the Supreme Court.  He did what he thought was "legal" in an attempt to protect American citizens.  The Supreme Court told him to stop.  He did.  System worked. 

And Congress actually approved of one of things you consider evil (taking away habeas from suspected foreign terrorists). 

It is not the constitutional duty of the Sup. Ct. to provide oversight to the actions of the president.  That is the constitutional duty of the Congress.

The Sup. Ct. does not issue advisory opinions.  Do you know the supreme court case that checked Bush's abuse of power.  It sounds like something a lower court would do.

[Decker]

Have a great night Beach Bum.  I'm off to a job interview.

[Dos Equis]

Have a great night Beach Bum.  I'm off to a job interview.

Good luck Decker.  Make sure you use proper English.