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Author Topic: Gonzales goes bye-bye.  (Read 3366 times)

Purge_WTF

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Gonzales goes bye-bye.
« on: August 27, 2007, 07:17:33 AM »
  He's resigning today. I'm at work and can't copy-and-paste a link, but I saw it on several news pages.

  Brick by brick.
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Hugo Chavez

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Re: Gonzales goes bye-bye.
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2007, 07:21:03 AM »
Oh, you beat me :P


 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Hugo Chavez

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Re: Gonzales goes bye-bye.
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2007, 08:39:30 AM »
Watch, today Bush will say how Gonzo did a heck of a job and before he leaves office, will pin a damn medal on him.
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Dos Equis

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Re: Gonzales goes bye-bye.
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2007, 08:48:34 AM »
Watch as the witch hunts mysteriously stop.  Too bad he buckled. 
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Hugo Chavez

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Re: Gonzales goes bye-bye.
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2007, 09:10:58 AM »
Bush said he was a good man who had his name dragged through the mud for "political reasons" uh huh... ::) Somebody sure did something they shouldn't have for political reasons :)  Byebuy Gonzo, you will not be missed.
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ieffinhatecardio

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Re: Gonzales goes bye-bye.
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2007, 10:49:17 AM »
Rove and Gonzalez is a nice start, getting Bush or Cheney out of office would be the ultimate coup de grâce.

I was hoping to read more delusional neotaint rhetoric defending this twit Gonzalez, I'm a little disappointed. Well, at least they've got the continuing death and destruction of Iraq to look forward to.
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tu_holmes

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Re: Gonzales goes bye-bye.
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2007, 01:38:33 PM »
The link for you guys.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/27/washington/27cnd-gonzales.html?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

WACO, Tex., Aug. 27 — Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales, whose tenure has been marred by controversy and accusations of perjury before Congress, announced his resignation in Washington today, declaring that he had “lived the American dream” by being able to lead the Justice Department.
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Decker

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Re: Gonzales goes bye-bye.
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2007, 01:46:27 PM »
Quote from: Beach Bum on August 27, 2007, 08:48:34 AM
Watch as the witch hunts mysteriously stop.  Too bad he buckled. 
Come on now, he was not a good AG and I can point to several things that show that:

*advised president that he could break FISA with impunity and spy on americans---wrong

*Advised president as to quaintness of geneva conventions in lauding US sponsored torture

*stood by as a tool for firing federal prosecutors not charging enough democrats with crimes during election cycles

*advised president that Habeus Corpus was not a good idea anymore (even though any person (citizen or not) is entitled to it under our Constitution)

*lied to Congress repeatedly about his role in the above

I will await your list of positive accomplishments of this small evil man.
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Dos Equis

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Re: Gonzales goes bye-bye.
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2007, 01:56:58 PM »
Quote from: Decker on August 27, 2007, 01:46:27 PM
Come on now, he was not a good AG and I can point to several things that show that:

*advised president that he could break FISA with impunity and spy on americans---wrong

*Advised president as to quaintness of geneva conventions in lauding US sponsored torture

*stood by as a tool for firing federal prosecutors not charging enough democrats with crimes during election cycles

*advised president that Habeus Corpus was not a good idea anymore (even though any person (citizen or not) is entitled to it under our Constitution)

*lied to Congress repeatedly about his role in the above

I will await your list of positive accomplishments of this small evil man.

Tell me how you really feel.   :)  I don't have a scorecard.  I'm sure if I looked I could find a summary of things he did right.  I think his biggest problem was being an atrocious witness. 

Democrats got a feather in their cap.  Another head for the mantle.  I am not impressed.   
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Decker

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Re: Gonzales goes bye-bye.
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2007, 02:04:40 PM »
Quote from: Beach Bum on August 27, 2007, 01:56:58 PM
Tell me how you really feel.   :)  I don't have a scorecard.  I'm sure if I looked I could find a summary of things he did right.  I think his biggest problem was being an atrocious witness. 

Democrats got a feather in their cap.  Another head for the mantle.  I am not impressed.   
I really mean it Beach Bum.

Tell me what this guy has done that would do the office of AG well?

I'm off to home, so have a great night my friend.
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Dos Equis

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Re: Gonzales goes bye-bye.
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2007, 02:37:55 PM »
Quote from: Decker on August 27, 2007, 02:04:40 PM
I really mean it Beach Bum.

Tell me what this guy has done that would do the office of AG well?

I'm off to home, so have a great night my friend.

Well . . . his boss said he is a good guy:

Mr. Bush called him "a man of integrity, decency and principle," and touted among Mr. Gonzales' accomplishments some of the same legislation and policies that have most angered civil liberties groups, including the Patriot Act and the law allowing accused terrorists to stand trial by military commission.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/082807dnnatgonzales.7541271e.html

He had a tough job.  Taking over in this new era.  Helping with the war on terror.  As Bush pointed out, Patriot Act and Military Commissions Act were under his watch.  But you probably think those are bad laws. 

And how do you judge whether he did a good job anyway?  His office isn't a legislative body.  I certainly wouldn't judge him based on the partisan witch hunts that were all smoke, no fire, and resulted in his resignation.   
 
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24KT

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Re: Gonzales goes bye-bye.
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2007, 11:59:37 PM »
Quote from: Beach Bum on August 27, 2007, 02:37:55 PM
Well . . . his boss said he is a good guy:

Mr. Bush called him "a man of integrity, decency and principle,"

Oh ya, ...so much integrity, decency, honesty & priciple he continued to lie through his teeth right up til the end,
...as well as instruct members of his staff to lie too. A whole lot of integrity there. Good riddance to bad rubbish!

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Decker

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Re: Gonzales goes bye-bye.
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2007, 06:29:26 AM »
Quote from: Beach Bum on August 27, 2007, 02:37:55 PM
He had a tough job.  Taking over in this new era.  Helping with the war on terror.  As Bush pointed out, Patriot Act and Military Commissions Act were under his watch.  But you probably think those are bad laws. 

And how do you judge whether he did a good job anyway?  His office isn't a legislative body.  I certainly wouldn't judge him based on the partisan witch hunts that were all smoke, no fire, and resulted in his resignation.   
 
Here's how you judge his effectiveness as AG---especially in battling terrorism:  was he true to the US Constitution?

I would say, "no."

FISA, Habeus Corpus, lying to Congress and torture all show that this man was performing his duties in a manner not consistent with our Constitution.
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Dos Equis

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Re: Gonzales goes bye-bye.
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2007, 09:06:48 AM »
Quote from: Decker on August 28, 2007, 06:29:26 AM
Here's how you judge his effectiveness as AG---especially in battling terrorism:  was he true to the US Constitution?

I would say, "no."

FISA, Habeus Corpus, lying to Congress and torture all show that this man was performing his duties in a manner not consistent with our Constitution.

All a matter of opinion.  He was probably in over his head, but looks to me like he was trying to protect us.  I credit him for that. 
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Al-Gebra

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Re: Gonzales goes bye-bye.
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2007, 09:18:52 AM »
Quote from: Decker on August 28, 2007, 06:29:26 AM
Here's how you judge his effectiveness as AG---especially in battling terrorism:  was he true to the US Constitution?

I would say, "no."

FISA, Habeus Corpus, lying to Congress and torture all show that this man was performing his duties in a manner not consistent with our Constitution.

there is precedent that says the president is not (as) accountable to congress when it comes to foreign affairs . . . can think of sutherland off the top of my head, and rehnquist too.

also, precedent suggests that emergency situations give the executive (and indeed the govt.) emergency powers. 

granted, as the great robert jackson pointed out, emergencies and emergency powers are hard to limit  . . . and black (i think) noted that what's foreign shouldn't have domestic impacts.
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Decker

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Re: Gonzales goes bye-bye.
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2007, 01:34:25 PM »
Quote from: Beach Bum on August 28, 2007, 09:06:48 AM
All a matter of opinion.  He was probably in over his head, but looks to me like he was trying to protect us.  I credit him for that. 
Yes, my informed opinion tells me that:

The Framers extended Habeus Corpus to all people and not just citizens before AG smashed that right,
The constitution has a right to protection from warrantless searches and a right to privacy and AG ruined that with his FISA advice,
The Framers went out of their way to denounce/bar cruel and unusual in the 8th amendment but AG is beating the drum for torture.

The man is evil.  My opinion.  But evil nonetheless.

Protect us?  From what? Our constitutional rights.

I guess all that stuff about god given inalienable rights in the constitution is crapola.
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Al-Gebra

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Re: Gonzales goes bye-bye.
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2007, 01:47:35 PM »
Yes, my informed opinion tells me that:

The Framers extended Habeus Corpus to all people and not just citizens before AG smashed that right,


TELL THAT TO LINCOLN . . . HE THOUGHT HE DID IT FIRST. ALSO SEE WWII and JAPANESE INTERNMENT
The constitution has a right to protection from warrantless searches and a right to privacy and AG ruined that with his FISA advice,

NOT AN ABSOLUTE RIGHT. GRANTED, THERE WAS NOT  "STRICT SCRUTINY," BUT AGAIN, THERE IS A PRECEDENT FOR EMERGENCIES.
The Framers went out of their way to denounce/bar cruel and unusual in the 8th amendment but AG is beating the drum for torture.

THE ADMIN CHANGED ITS POSITION ON TORTURE A LONG TIME AGO . . .AFTER THE OLC's TORTURE MEMO WAS LEAKED TO THE PRESS. AG WAS NOT AG THEN. AND IF YOU WANT TO LOOK OVERSEAS, there is the whole "does the constitution follow the flag?" controversy
The man is evil.  My opinion.  But evil nonetheless.

He is sort of an asshole, and he blundered . . . he's a V&E lawyer, after all . . . but it's not as clear-cut as you make it.

Protect us?  From what? Our constitutional rights.

I guess all that stuff about god given inalienable rights in the constitution is crapola.
[/quote]
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Al-Gebra

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Re: Gonzales goes bye-bye.
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2007, 01:54:00 PM »

there is also a power to suspend habeas in case of emergencies.  it is likely that the power is in cong, but it isn't specified . . . also, you don't have to declare it an emergency.
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Decker

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Re: Gonzales goes bye-bye.
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2007, 02:07:48 PM »
Quote from: Al-Gebra on August 28, 2007, 01:47:35 PM

TELL THAT TO LINCOLN . . . HE THOUGHT HE DID IT FIRST. ALSO SEE WWII and JAPANESE INTERNMENT
The constitution has a right to protection from warrantless searches and a right to privacy and AG ruined that with his FISA advice,

NOT AN ABSOLUTE RIGHT. GRANTED, THERE WAS NOT  "STRICT SCRUTINY," BUT AGAIN, THERE IS A PRECEDENT FOR EMERGENCIES.
The Framers went out of their way to denounce/bar cruel and unusual in the 8th amendment but AG is beating the drum for torture.

THE ADMIN CHANGED ITS POSITION ON TORTURE A LONG TIME AGO . . .AFTER THE OLC's TORTURE MEMO WAS LEAKED TO THE PRESS. AG WAS NOT AG THEN. AND IF YOU WANT TO LOOK OVERSEAS, there is the whole "does the constitution follow the flag?" controversy
The man is evil.  My opinion.  But evil nonetheless.

He is sort of an asshole, and he blundered . . . he's a V&E lawyer, after all . . . but it's not as clear-cut as you make it.

Protect us?  From what? Our constitutional rights.

I guess all that stuff about god given inalienable rights in the constitution is crapola.

The Lincoln reference is not really relevant is it?  Civil war and a terrorist attack are two different things.

As for FISA and the US constitution, there is no absolute constitutional right.

And for torture: 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6479334/site/newsweek/ shows AG's memo praising torture.  True he wasn't AG at the time, but who cares?

Evil is evil.
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Dos Equis

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Re: Gonzales goes bye-bye.
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2007, 02:11:04 PM »
Quote from: Decker on August 28, 2007, 01:34:25 PM
Yes, my informed opinion tells me that:

The Framers extended Habeus Corpus to all people and not just citizens before AG smashed that right,
The constitution has a right to protection from warrantless searches and a right to privacy and AG ruined that with his FISA advice,
The Framers went out of their way to denounce/bar cruel and unusual in the 8th amendment but AG is beating the drum for torture.

The man is evil.  My opinion.  But evil nonetheless.

Protect us?  From what? Our constitutional rights.

I guess all that stuff about god given inalienable rights in the constitution is crapola.

If I recall correctly, a number of judges and members of Congress agreed with him. 
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Al-Gebra

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Re: Gonzales goes bye-bye.
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2007, 02:18:41 PM »
Quote from: Beach Bum on August 28, 2007, 02:11:04 PM
If I recall correctly, a number of judges and members of Congress agreed with him. 

congress has pretty much ratified everything the administration has wanted until recently.  and the courts have held that congress and the exec have had the power to do what they did.

Decker,  it's all a matter of perspective.  you can say that lincoln had greater grounds to do so, but it's all a matter of perspective.  these powers are extended, and then they are taken away.  happened w the civil war, and it's happening now.
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Dos Equis

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Re: Gonzales goes bye-bye.
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2007, 02:35:03 PM »
Quote from: Al-Gebra on August 28, 2007, 02:18:41 PM
congress has pretty much ratified everything the administration has wanted until recently.  and the courts have held that congress and the exec have had the power to do what they did.


Thanks.  That's what I thought.  Sort of takes the sting out of the "evil man" argument.  Reminds me of the reprint of a commentary I posted a while back (Maybe Evil One Is Just Wrong):   http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=149392.0

Seems like a cycle.  Clinton was evil.  Bush is evil.  Hillary/Rudy/Romney will be evil. . . . .
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Decker

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Re: Gonzales goes bye-bye.
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2007, 06:27:32 AM »
Quote from: Al-Gebra on August 28, 2007, 02:18:41 PM
congress has pretty much ratified everything the administration has wanted until recently.  and the courts have held that congress and the exec have had the power to do what they did.

Decker,  it's all a matter of perspective.  you can say that lincoln had greater grounds to do so, but it's all a matter of perspective.  these powers are extended, and then they are taken away.  happened w the civil war, and it's happening now.
Lincoln's suspension of Habeas Corpus as part of the imposition of martial law during the Civil War was unconstitutional.  I was just pointing out that he faced a much different threat than that of a terrorist attack.  [ex parte Milligan (71 US 2 [1866]). The Supreme Court ruled that Lincoln's imposition of martial law (by way of suspension of habeas corpus) was unconstitutional.]

As for FISA, it was enacted with the express purpose of curbing excesses of presidential power, the kind of which Nixon practiced, and Bush merely ignored the law thanks to AG's advice.  A warrant is necessary and Bush blew it off.  I don't trust the president to have unchecked powers to spy on US citizens. 

That is not permissible by a president sworn to uphold the laws of the US. 

Your contention that Congress pretty much ratified everything Bush did does not address the issue that Bush simply ignored the Congress, broke the law, then sought retroactive help from a rubberstamp spineless republican led congress.

Everything is a matter of perspective.  Let's not go down that relativistic hole. 

Bush and AG's main crime is that they acted as if the law/constitution did not apply to the exercise of executive power.  It does.
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Decker

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Re: Gonzales goes bye-bye.
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2007, 06:31:55 AM »
Quote from: Beach Bum on August 28, 2007, 02:35:03 PM
Thanks.  That's what I thought.  Sort of takes the sting out of the "evil man" argument.  Reminds me of the reprint of a commentary I posted a while back (Maybe Evil One Is Just Wrong):   http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=149392.0

Seems like a cycle.  Clinton was evil.  Bush is evil.  Hillary/Rudy/Romney will be evil. . . . .
I measure evil in terms of fidelity to the US constitution.  I don't bandy the word 'evil' around to score a political point.  Bush is evil--illegal/unconstitutional wars, illegal spying on american citizens, illegal stripping of habeas corpus, and we could run a list of the fiscal improprieties of the man with his shady budgets.  But for Bush's actions as president, tens of thousands of people would still be alive today.  He sure looks like a war criminal from where I'm sitting.  He is evil and so is his legal adviser AG.
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Dos Equis

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Re: Gonzales goes bye-bye.
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2007, 10:46:53 AM »
Quote from: Decker on August 29, 2007, 06:31:55 AM
I measure evil in terms of fidelity to the US constitution.  I don't bandy the word 'evil' around to score a political point.  Bush is evil--illegal/unconstitutional wars, illegal spying on american citizens, illegal stripping of habeas corpus, and we could run a list of the fiscal improprieties of the man with his shady budgets.  But for Bush's actions as president, tens of thousands of people would still be alive today.  He sure looks like a war criminal from where I'm sitting.  He is evil and so is his legal adviser AG.

You must have a long list of evil people:

- Every member of the House and Senate that endorsed "illegal/unconstitutional wars" after they started.
- The lawyers, judges, and members of prior administrations (I think?) who thought "illegal spying" was actually legal.
- Every member of Congress who stripped foreign terrorists of habeas corpus by voting for the Military Commissions Act.  By the way, how can it be illegal if it's now the law of the land? 
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