Author Topic: Seated Rows vs. Bent Over Rows; never really 'felt' the latter...  (Read 4509 times)

Deicide

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22921
  • Reapers...
Seated Rows vs. Bent Over Rows; never really 'felt' the latter...
« on: September 19, 2007, 06:29:31 PM »
Time and again I go back to trying our bent over rows but inevitably go back to seated motions because I can feel my back and wings being worked much better than with bent over rows. Of course I admit I may just have bad technique with the bent overs but I have tried very carefully executed ones as well, 100% precision and I just never get the results from them that I do from seated rows. Anyone else have this experience?
I hate the State.

pumpster

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 18890
  • If you're reading this you have too much free time
Re: Seated Rows vs. Bent Over Rows; never really 'felt' the latter...
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2007, 06:42:17 PM »
Ya, because BB rows aren't really that great at isolating the lats. Now of course some will say that they got great results from it but on the other hand they would probably have gotten the same thing or better from other alternatives. Don't waste time with exercises that the book or someone here suggests if it doesn't work for you.

Besides which, BB rows are one of the most exhausting exercises out there thanks to all the muscles needed to support the weight.

Besides cable, also use T-bars, rows with the back braced which isolates the lats better, hammer rows which are about the same effect, and if you do rows, one-arm DB which braces the back, stops it from moving and works the lats better. All of these are more intense on the lats, in part because there's more latitude for the use of different grips and less strain and exhaustion to the lower back and other muscles.

Deicide

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 22921
  • Reapers...
Re: Seated Rows vs. Bent Over Rows; never really 'felt' the latter...
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2007, 07:07:13 PM »
Ya, because BB rows aren't really that great at isolating the lats. Now of course some will say that they got great results from it but on the other hand they would probably have gotten the same thing or better from other alternatives. Don't waste time with exercises that the book or someone here suggests if it doesn't work for you.

Besides which, BB rows are one of the most exhausting exercises out there thanks to all the muscles needed to support the weight.

Besides cable, also use T-bars, rows with the back braced which isolates the lats better, hammer rows which are about the same effect, and if you do rows, one-arm DB which braces the back, stops it from moving and works the lats better. All of these are more intense on the lats, in part because there's more latitude for the use of different grips and less strain and exhaustion to the lower back and other muscles.

Thanks, I feel relieved, all this time thinking I was 'missing out' on something...
I hate the State.

marcus

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 3021
Re: Seated Rows vs. Bent Over Rows; never really 'felt' the latter...
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2007, 07:13:48 PM »
It took me a lot of practice, light weight, and watching my form before I started to benefit from bb rows. I stayed with seated the first few months of lifting before even trying them.

bigkahuna

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 515
  • Getbig!
Re: Seated Rows vs. Bent Over Rows; never really 'felt' the latter...
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2007, 10:42:39 PM »
ive always felt the most effective rows are ones done where you are leaning into something
(e.g supported t-bar row)

WOOO

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 18158
  • Fuck the mods
Re: Seated Rows vs. Bent Over Rows; never really 'felt' the latter...
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2007, 02:54:11 AM »
Don't waste time with exercises that the book or someone here suggests if it doesn't work for you.


this may be one of the worst possible suggestions...

maybe in the case of an isolation exercise this would be accurate but there are certain basic movements like BB rows, deadlifts, bench presses and squats that should always be performed in some kind of permutation

or example, barbell rows are difficult for me because i have lumbar issues but i can do them on the smith machine, i do them near the end of my back workout to be able to use less weight

BB rows, deads, squats and bench presses can take year to become comfortable but they are the MOST important BBing movements

I am not saying that you can't personalize the exercises: front squat or smith squats instead of regular, incline bench instead of flat, rack deads instead of deads from the floor

etc, etc, etc

jpm101

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2996
Re: Seated Rows vs. Bent Over Rows; never really 'felt' the latter...
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2007, 08:39:42 AM »
Marcus gives good insight. Learn to do any exercise the correct way to reap the rewards. Set the Ego aside and start with a lighter weight for awhile. Also experiment with different grip and elbow positions for different effects on the back with the BB row.

You are not going to isolate the lat's, or any other muscle group, that is misleading thinking.  A BB, machine, cables, etc will not do that. But a compound (two joint exercise) movement, like BB rows, can give a better opportunity for muscle mass. If someone has a fear of exhausting exercises, that produce max results, than they are missing out on a lot of positive returns (we do not want anyone to fall over in a faint when faced with attempting to use heavy compound exercises. That is, if the goal is reaching their full muscle potential. Better for them to go back to their foo-foo light fitness  machine exercises).

Along with BB rows, the squat, Dl's, heavy benches, etc fall into the category of prime mass/strength builders. And are the core exercises for most successful BB'ers. Might try the curl grip (medium hand spacing) when doing  BB rows for better recruitment of the lat's themselves. A wider grip (elbows out) and pull to the mid chest affect the posterior delt and lower/mid traps better. But of course, this never will take the lat's out of the exercise.

If done the correct way, the BB rows will strengthen the lower back area greatly, giving thickness of muscle around the spinal area. Also affect the ham's. Good Luck.
F

pumpster

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 18890
  • If you're reading this you have too much free time
Re: Seated Rows vs. Bent Over Rows; never really 'felt' the latter...
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2007, 10:16:17 AM »
Anyone who doesn't understand that muscles even in compound exercises can be isolated better by doing small things should learn more from serious trainers who know the difference.

Which is exactly why some guys are sought-after trainers, and some others aren't.

Also, anyone who thinks that the standard exercises have to be part of the program sees things only in black & white, will never be able to explain why Larry Scott never did standing BB curls or why Sergio thought the machines he used were better than free weights. ;D

Cap

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6363
  • Trueprotein.com 5% discount code= CSP111
Re: Seated Rows vs. Bent Over Rows; never really 'felt' the latter...
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2007, 10:59:12 AM »
Time and again I go back to trying our bent over rows but inevitably go back to seated motions because I can feel my back and wings being worked much better than with bent over rows. Of course I admit I may just have bad technique with the bent overs but I have tried very carefully executed ones as well, 100% precision and I just never get the results from them that I do from seated rows. Anyone else have this experience?
Performing them with a Dorian Yates-style form should help with this problem.  Less bent over position, slow smooth execution.  Like JPM said, reverse grip rows will help and even on the Smith Machine as WOOO mentioned.  Personally I go between T-bars and BB rows.  Smaller plates on the T-bars lead to more ROM but in all seriousness.  If you can row 225-315 in Yates' form, your lats should have the best chance of growing.  If you still can't find results from that, I would suggest T-bars or Hammer rows.
Squishy face retard

JasonWojo

  • Getbig II
  • **
  • Posts: 15
  • True Protein Athlete
Re: Seated Rows vs. Bent Over Rows; never really 'felt' the latter...
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2007, 11:43:41 AM »
Try them on a smith machine

pumpster

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 18890
  • If you're reading this you have too much free time
Re: Seated Rows vs. Bent Over Rows; never really 'felt' the latter...
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2007, 12:51:52 PM »
Yates' style's only gonna appeal to some, both because of the effect and because of the back strain. Some will like almost standing up that way, some will find that hell on the back, some won't like either. This has been discussed many times before on this board.

T-bars are a viable alternative that some will find more effective & easier on the back.

Rep speed's an individual thang. A little cheating actually makes it a lot closer to real rowing, so obviously this is one way to do it.

As far as great alternatives that can make BB rows unnecessary, Yates liked the hammer row so much the company named one of the models after him.

wes

  • Competitors
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 66301
  • What Dire Mishap Has Befallen Thee
Re: Seated Rows vs. Bent Over Rows; never really 'felt' the latter...
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2007, 04:37:17 PM »
Lying barbell rows are a much better exercise than traditional bb rows.

Try `em out.........you`ll see what I mean.

Hedgehog

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 19464
  • It Rubs The Lotion On Its Skin.
Re: Seated Rows vs. Bent Over Rows; never really 'felt' the latter...
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2007, 02:28:40 AM »
Lying barbell rows are a much better exercise than traditional bb rows.

Try `em out.........you`ll see what I mean.

You do them on an incline bench or on a flat?
As empty as paradise

wes

  • Competitors
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 66301
  • What Dire Mishap Has Befallen Thee
Re: Seated Rows vs. Bent Over Rows; never really 'felt' the latter...
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2007, 03:36:09 AM »
Zack,I use a flat bench..............this one`s higher off the ground than a normal bench.

Hurt my lower back in 2004 and couldn`t do rows anymore,tried the lying version and my back development improved dramatically.

Can`t use as much weight,but the legs and lower back are taken out of the equation resulting in much better mind/muscle connection.

jpm101

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 2996
Re: Seated Rows vs. Bent Over Rows; never really 'felt' the latter...
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2007, 08:01:42 AM »
May be I am the only one but using a respectable weight when doing bench rows (flat) restricts my breathing . A heavy BB compresses the chest too much, for me anyway. Using DB's still bother breathing but to a lesser degree.  Another advantage with DB's is that you can use hammer grip style  rows as well as wide angle rows. If into true BB'ing, than a moderate weight & higher reps can work well for most. Might try doing reverse rear fly's from that face down position, which can hit the posterior delts and inner traps very well. 

You are still bring into play the lower back area with bench rows but the direct workload/tension is reduced greatly. Seems to be some confusion with the idea of isolation of a muscle. Better focus is possible but not full isolation of any muscle or muscle group. Probably isolation is a poor word choice. Good Luck.
F

2big4u

  • Getbig II
  • **
  • Posts: 118
Re: Seated Rows vs. Bent Over Rows; never really 'felt' the latter...
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2007, 06:42:21 PM »
barbell rows are the best back builder in my opinion,i do 8 sets of 6-10 every workout and i would never use another rowing movement for back,but i guess that is because i get a crazy pump from them.

willie mosconi

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 1244
  • Getbig!
Re: Seated Rows vs. Bent Over Rows; never really 'felt' the latter...
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2007, 11:25:55 PM »
Yates' style's only gonna appeal to some, both because of the effect and because of the back strain. Some will like almost standing up that way, some will find that hell on the back, some won't like either. This has been discussed many times before on this board.

T-bars are a viable alternative that some will find more effective & easier on the back.

Rep speed's an individual thang. A little cheating actually makes it a lot closer to real rowing, so obviously this is one way to do it.

As far as great alternatives that can make BB rows unnecessary, Yates liked the hammer row so much the company named one of the models after him.

the one and only time I tried to do bb rows Yates style, I threw my back out and could hardly train for a month. I will never try them again for that reason

AVBG

  • Guest
Re: Seated Rows vs. Bent Over Rows; never really 'felt' the latter...
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2007, 02:15:52 AM »
bent barbell rows are one of the key exercises in my back routine. Sacrificing good technique for a heavier weight is a common mistake, start light get the right technique and rythmn before going heavy.

pumpster

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 18890
  • If you're reading this you have too much free time
Re: Seated Rows vs. Bent Over Rows; never really 'felt' the latter...
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2007, 05:35:28 AM »
Zack,I use a flat bench..............this one`s higher off the ground than a normal bench.

Hurt my lower back in 2004 and couldn`t do rows anymore,tried the lying version and my back development improved dramatically.

Can`t use as much weight,but the legs and lower back are taken out of the equation resulting in much better mind/muscle connection.

Ya this is a superior way even though not well known-it's basically the rowing version of preachers.

Also as i said, it's a lot less exhausting, leaves you less wiped out for the next exercise.

pumpster

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 18890
  • If you're reading this you have too much free time
Re: Seated Rows vs. Bent Over Rows; never really 'felt' the latter...
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2007, 05:37:10 AM »
the one and only time I tried to do bb rows Yates style, I threw my back out and could hardly train for a month. I will never try them again for that reason

Exactly; this is highly individual. Theoretically i don't see any basis for doing them that way, even though i know it works for some-even for those who like it i'll bet there are other good alternatives that are less stressful.