Sharia in Dearborn: Police stop Christians from handing out material outside Ara

[Dos Equis]

Good for you them. Now,they can keep it at home where they can meditate on it on their own or with like minded people. If I feel like hooking up wth Jesus,, I'll call them.

Or they can continue to exercise their First Amendment rights, and you, me, and anyone else who aren't interested can simply ignore them.  Censorship and violations of Constitutional rights aren't the answer. 

Keep in mind that the speech and expression part of the First Amendment is really designed to protect unpopular speech and expression.   

[drkaje]

I don't have a problem with it.  They believe in their message.  It's a "good" message, whether you believe in their specific tenets or not.  People need to stop being so hypersensitive when it comes to religion. 

You're smart enough to know I'm talking about rights, not religion.

These guys were grandstanding and that's probably a lot worse. We're not talking about lighting a candle behind a bush in this case. They were seeking attention to themselves and a cause and just happened to scapegoat religion.

free speech is a funny thing. People always like to pretend it isn't violated until someone yells "fire" in a crowded movie theater when the content is agreeable to them. I'll always argue that's dangerous because our rights shouldn't vary with majority whim.

They should be able to freely assemble, hand out crap, protest, grin and bear arms, whatever... just not in a manner that knowingly interferes with the rights of others.

Change immigration laws. That's the solution.

[Bindare_Dundat]

Or they can continue to exercise their First Amendment rights, and you, me, and anyone else who aren't interested can simply ignore them.  Censorship and violations of Constitutional rights aren't the answer.  

Keep in mind that the speech and expression part of the First Amendment is really designed to protect unpopular speech and expression.  

The whole point of them handing out leaflets, (I don't believe that's all they did), was to spread "the word" but all they succeeded in doing was turning people off and being a nuisance.

And it's hard to ignore a screaming idiot who followed me at a festival where I would least expect them to be. They went to an Arab festivel for fuck sakes, if they wanted christ pushed into their face I don't think they would be there, they would be at a Christian church. These guys  were poking a hornets nest with a stick for a reaction and they got one.

It's like people who try and "save" the  life of a fetus by standing in front of an abortion clinic screaming at women who go in that they're going to burn in hell for murder. Great effective use for your right to free speech.

[Fury]

How dare they go to an Arab festival in America. Here I was thinking they had the right to do that! Silly me. I guess that certain areas of the country are now off-limits to non-Muslims.  

It's funny watching people justify trampling all over Constitutionally-mandated rights when it suits them. How very governmental of you.

You guys are great examples of why Muslim "extremists" act like they do.  

[drkaje]

The whole point of them handing out leaflets, (I don't believe that's all they did), was to spread "the word" but all they succeeded in doing was turning people off and being a nuisance.

And it's hard to ignore a screaming idiot who followed me at a festival where I would least expect them to be. They went to an Arab festivel for fuck sakes, if they wanted christ pushed into their face I don't think they would be there, they would be at a Christian church. These guys  were poking a hornets nest with a stick for a reaction and they got one.

It's like people who try and "save" the  life of a fetus by standing in front of an abortion clinic screaming at women who go in that they're going to burn in hell for murder. Great effective use for your right to free speech.

Apparently some want the Constitution amended to allow extra free speech and the right to interfere with Muslims.

[Dos Equis]

You're smart enough to know I'm talking about rights, not religion.

These guys were grandstanding and that's probably a lot worse. We're not talking about lighting a candle behind a bush in this case. They were seeking attention to themselves and a cause and just happened to scapegoat religion.

free speech is a funny thing. People always like to pretend it isn't violated until someone yells "fire" in a crowded movie theater when the content is agreeable to them. I'll always argue that's dangerous because our rights shouldn't vary with majority whim.

They should be able to freely assemble, hand out crap, protest, grin and bear arms, whatever... just not in a manner that knowingly interferes with the rights of others.

Change immigration laws. That's the solution.

I'm talking about rights too.  I think they have them.  You think they don't.  We both can't be right.   

Did we watch the same clip?  They stood on the sidewalk holding pamphlets.  I didn't hear any shouting, didn't see any aggressive behavior, didn't see anything provocative.  They were approached by about ten cops within minutes. 

If you view what I saw on that clip as akin to yelling "fire" in a crowed theater, or those crazy immoral Westboro people, then we just have to agree to disagree. 

People attending a religious festival, church, etc., don't have the right to not see people of other faiths handing out religious literature. 

[Dos Equis]

The whole point of them handing out leaflets, (I don't believe that's all they did), was to spread "the word" but all they succeeded in doing was turning people off and being a nuisance.

And it's hard to ignore a screaming idiot who followed me at a festival where I would least expect them to be. They went to an Arab festivel for fuck sakes, if they wanted christ pushed into their face I don't think they would be there, they would be at a Christian church. These guys  were poking a hornets nest with a stick for a reaction and they got one.

It's like people who try and "save" the  life of a fetus by standing in front of an abortion clinic screaming at women who go in that they're going to burn in hell for murder. Great effective use for your right to free speech.

Who did they turn off?  They were there for all of three minutes.  Besides, offensive speech and expression is protected by the First Amendment.  

Someone screaming in your face is committing a crime.  Call the police.  Someone trying to hand you a piece of paper is not committing a crime.  Ignore them.  

Again, I didn't see any screaming, etc.  Has nothing to do with what I saw on the clip.  Unless I just overlooked the screaming part?  

[Fury]

Apparently some want the Constitution amended to allow extra free speech and the right to interfere with Muslims.

Proselytizing is interfering with Muslims now? And here I was thinking they were subjected to obeying the same rules dictating free speech and religion as I was. Silly me.  

But apparently all we have to do is circle around, while appearing to harbor violent intentions, anyone handing out any sort of religious material and they'll get thrown out of the area or arrested. How foolish of me to think we had the 1st amendment here.

Fact of the matter is that these people were acting perfectly within the law and the rights granted them and, once again, the Muslims got special treatment and victim status out of it.

Funny how you can walk around any major city and find dozens of people proselytizing every day without any violent ramifications but apparently Dearbornistan is different and special.  

This moral high-ground stance you try to take is nothing short of hilarious, "doc". Almost as funny as you crying about racism.

[drkaje]

Proselytizing is interfering with Muslims now? And here I was thinking they were subjected to obeying the same rules dictating free speech and religion as I was. Silly me.  

But apparently all we have to do is circle around, while appearing to harbor violent intentions, anyone handing out any sort of religious material and they'll get thrown out of the area or arrested. How foolish of me to think we had the 1st amendment here.

Fact of the matter is that these people were acting perfectly within the law and the rights granted them and, once again, the Muslims got special treatment and victim status out of it.

Funny how you can walk around any major city and find dozens of people proselytizing every day without any violent ramifications but apparently Dearbornistan is different and special.  

This moral high-ground stance you try to take is nothing short of hilarious, "doc". Almost as funny as you crying about racism.

We're talking about rights, morals.

FWIW, our rights are all tied. If you don't mind giving up some individual rights to do certain things (or not) without interference or have their boundaries determined by majority whim... fine. Bear one thing in mind: it's impossible to impose upon their rights without sacrificing yours, too.

If you're more afraid of fundamental Islam than having no individual rights then the terrorists win.  

Me? I'd rather keep America free. If there must be sacrifices, let them be made abroad... with bombs and America centered policies.

[Fury]

We're talking about rights, morals.

FWIW, our rights are all tied. If you don't mind giving up some individual rights to do certain things (or not) without interference or have their boundaries determined by majority whim... fine. Bear one thing in mind: it's impossible to impose upon their rights without sacrificing yours, too.

If you're more afraid of fundamental Islam than having no individual rights then the terrorists win.  

Me? I'd rather keep America free. If there must be sacrifices, let them be made abroad... with bombs and America centered policies.

What the hell are you blabbering about? What could Christians handing out pamphlets possibly have to do with fundamentalist Islam? Are Muslims banned from proselytizing now or something? The Ground Zero mosque would like a word with you.  

I think the multiple cases of Islamic charities funding jihad, and the fact that they keep doing it, speaks wonders for how badly we're "trampling" on Muslim's rights here.

You can try to spin it all you want, but fact of the matter is that people proselytize all over this country every day and the overwhelming majority are able to do it without having an angry crowd circle around them threatening violence. Of course, most of this country isn't like Sharia ruled Dearbornistan.

[drkaje]

What the hell are you blabbering about? What could Christians handing out pamphlets possibly have to do with fundamentalist Islam? Are Muslims banned from proselytizing now or something? The Ground Zero mosque would like a word with you.  

I think the multiple cases of Islamic charities funding jihad, and the fact that they keep doing it, speaks wonders for how badly we're "trampling" on Muslim's rights here.

You can try to spin it all you want, but fact of the matter is that people proselytize all over this country every day and the overwhelming majority are able to do it without having an angry crowd circle around them threatening violence. Of course, most of this country isn't like Sharia ruled Dearbornistan.

The compulsion to add "istan" to everything shows the concept is either too complex or not being explained in simple enough language.

I'll pop back to the thread later and see if anyone else gets it.

[Fury]

The compulsion to add "istan" to everything shows the concept is either too complex or not being explained in simple enough language.

I'll pop back to the thread later and see if anyone else gets it.

Ahh yes, here comes the chiropractor of all people trying to play the intelligence card. Been waiting for that.

You're taking an incident of Christians being arrested for proselytizing and trying to wrap it into some grand, and incredibly vague, argument about trampling on some unidentified rights to combat radical islam. Your entire argument is that the first amendment can go out the window in this situation because we're apparently giving up some unidentified rights in other situations to combat the jihadists. Nice straw man.

Let me help you out here. Being vague and playing the straw man game doesn't help your argument nor make you look intelligent.

[drkaje]

Ahh yes, here comes the chiropractor of all people trying to play the intelligence card. Been waiting for that.

You're taking an incident of Christians being arrested for proselytizing and trying to wrap it into some grand, and incredibly vague, argument about trampling on some unidentified rights to combat radical islam. Your entire argument is that the first amendment can go out the window in this situation because we're apparently giving up some unidentified rights in other situations to combat the jihadists. Nice straw man.

Let me help you out here. Being vague and playing the straw man game doesn't help your argument nor make you look intelligent.

Yawn.

[Fury]

Yawn.

Thanks for proving my point.

Do you honestly think your cryptic responses and straw man arguments are impressive?

[240 is Back]

I dont care if it's religion, protesting a war, or selling vacuum cleaners.

People who disrupt events should be kicked the hell outta there.

If any group showed up at this Christians' church and started making a fuss, they'd be kicked out too.

Wow, religion is such a divisize idiotic issue.  Live and let live.  Who gives a fck what other morons believe - you're all worshipping an invisible man.  Yours is just a little different from his.

[Skip8282]

Yawn.

Tired of getting owned?  I don't blame you.  Stop now, and you may be able to control the bleeding.

[drkaje]

Tired of getting owned?  I don't blame you.  Stop now, and you may be able to control the bleeding.

Why waste more time with someone who can't understand the concept?

His fearing Muslims is fine. I just can't see losing personal rights for the illusion of safety.

We are all used to his chimp-screaming, though.

I just wish he'd learned more in that one debate class than "straw man", LOL! I always find it amusing when people memorize one term in an undergrad class and then try their best to work it into a discussion and seem educated.

He's a good guy, though.