How bad is the UFC HW division?

[coltrane]

 I am dead serious. The only tested heavyweights in the UFC are Nogueira, Randy and Crocop. A guy with 5 professional fights, two of which were losses, is not a seasoned vet.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

This whole thing hinges on one's perspective of what "seasoned" means. 

IMO there are MANY other SEASONED fighters at the HW division.

[suckmymuscle]

Nog is geriatric?  Dude is like 33 years old bro?

Most fighters, if not all fighters that are good enough talent wise to make it to a big named organization such as the UFC or Strikeforce or WEC are seasoned already.  

To say Frank Mir ISNT seasoned is ubsurd.  Call him a lousy fighter, etc, but to say he ISN"T seasoned shows you don't know jack about mma.

But by your logic, Nog is elderly..  i forgot.  

  The age of a fighter has nothing to do with him being in his prime or not. Nogueira is way past his prime. His fights in PRIDE against the roided freaks took out a lot of him and he is now old by MMA standards. Nogueira coaching in TUF seamed like he was retarded and weared out.

  Mir is seasoned? For beating two fighters past their prime? And being in the UFC does not mean you are seasoned. Brock Lesnar came from the WWE and has 5 professional fights. Is that seasoned? Cain has less than ten professional fights defeating mostly cans and fighters past their prime.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

[coltrane]

 The age of a fighter has nothing to do with him being in his prime or not. Nogueira is way past his prime. His fights in PRIDE against the roided freaks took out a lot of him and he is now old by MMA standards. Nogueira coaching in TUF seamed like he was retarded and weared out.

  Mir is seasoned? For beating two fighters past their prime? And being in the UFC does not mean you are seasoned. Brock Lesnar came from the WWE and has 5 professional fights. Is that seasoned? Cain has less than ten professional fights defeating mostly cans and fighters past their prime.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

Like i said before this whole thing boils down to what is seasoned.  Obviously we disagree on that. 

You said Nog was geriatric, not past his prime as I recall.  Geriatric means OLD my friend.


Youre a retard if you consider Mir not seasoned.   Plain and simple. 

[coltrane]

I can see your argument as to Cain and Lesnar not being seasoned..  but MIR?


COME ON DUDE!

You've gotta be pulling my leg.

Oh and Nog was 30 when they fought.  30 is geriatric?

[*ChuteBoxe*]

Like i said before this whole thing boils down to what is seasoned.  Obviously we disagree on that. 

You said Nog was geriatric, not past his prime as I recall.  Geriatric means OLD my friend.


Youre a retard if you consider Mir not seasoned.   Plain and simple. 

Seasoned is a little strong of a word for Mir, I would say he's better than average and lucky combined.  He's limited as far as what kind of opponent he's capable of beating.  If he fights a wrestler with sub knowledge he's gonna lose that one 9/10 times, plus his cardio and chin are still questionable.  He looks good in peoples eyes because he fights the type of opponents that make him look good, or he fights opponents that were once good but have seen better days.  I have always thought he was overrated.

[coltrane]

Seasoned is a little strong of a word for Mir, I would say he's better than average and lucky combined.  He's limited as far as what kind of opponent he's capable of beating.  If he fights a wrestler with sub knowledge he's gonna lose that one 9/10 times, plus his cardio and chin are still questionable.  He looks good in peoples eyes because he fights the type of opponents that make him look good, or he fights opponents that were once good but have seen better days.  I have always thought he was overrated.

Your just defining his skill set Chute, and how he WOULD perform against certain other skill sets.

Being seasoned is based on number of fights, titles held etc, not what opponents you'd be good facing or vice versa.  At least in my opinion. 

You both are WAY off on this.  Mir is a seasoned fighter.  AGAIN, THIS BOILS DOWN TO ONE"S PERCEPTION OF SEASONED.

[coltrane]

Mir is also seasoned (in the way you think) in that he has a great ground game, his jiujitsu is top notch for a HW, and he's a decent striker.

He's been fighter professionally for over 10 years. 

Alright, i've wasted enough time on this.

[MindSpin]

  I am dead serious. The only tested heavyweights in the UFC are Nogueira, Randy and Crocop. A guy with 5 professional fights, two of which were losses, is not a seasoned vet.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

Wait a minute.  You're changing your statement.  You said that a true heavyweight champ should have at least 25 on their record.  And, if you have just a handful of fights, you should not be considered a real champ. 

That's a ridiculous statement.  Last year, there was some guy that came out of nowhere and won a major marathon, beating all the season pros and breaking all sorts of records.  It was the dude's 1st marathon, yet he had the best time...he won that race...he was the best. 

It's not different in MMA.  Who cares if you have 30 fights on your record.  If someone beats your ass, they're better than you...end of story.

[AC Slater]

suckmymuscle is laying out some brutal ownings in this thread.

mir is somewhat seasoned, 14-5 record.  decent amount of fights over the span of a few years. 

doesnt change the fact that he sucks ass

[MindSpin]

suckmymuscle is laying out some brutal ownings in this thread.

mir is somewhat seasoned, 14-5 record.  decent amount of fights over the span of a few years. 

doesnt change the fact that he sucks ass

LOL.  You just contradicted his argument yet he's pwning people? fukcing dumbass

[Fury]

suckmymuscle embarrassing Yemeni in this thread.  

Mindspin's probably on the bat phone with Dana trying to formulate a response to the posts in this thread.

[suckmymuscle]

  If the UFC wants to give it's heavyweight division credibility, it needs to bring either Overeem, Fedor or Barnett to it's division. It is the only way. Having a bunch of noobs with a few fights decide who is the "best in the World" by fighting each other is ridiculous. To be the best, you need to beat the best, and guys who have a total of 5 fights with 3 wins over other noobs with a few fights or geriatric ex fighters do not count as worthy rivals that, if you defeat, you can claim to be the best. Again, it is ridiculous. Nogueira or Randy could give the UFC heavyweight the credibility it needs, but the problem is that Couture is pushing 50 and Nogueira is clearly brain damaged and with arthrites evident by his bad knees and back. He is clearly past his prime and the fact that he's 33 doesen't mean anything. Beating these two seasoned vets mean little. To give the UFC heavyweight title the severitas it needs, you need to bring a seasoned vet who is still more or less in his prime to the UFC heavyweight division and see if the UFC boys can compete with the guy. If he wins, the title goes to a worthy and proven heavyweight; if he loses, the UFC boy who beat him can claim to be the best in the World becuase he beat a veteran who is still at the peak of the game.

  Fedor may not be the best heavyweight in the World anymore - debatable -, but he sure has something that the UFC sorely needs: resumee. He is like Randy and Nog, except that he hasn't become a tomato can do to extremely old age or brain and physical damage. The same is said about Barnett and Overeem. These three are the only heavyweights in the World that fulfill the conditions of being seasoned and still in their primes, although Barnett is pushing it.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

[suckmymuscle]

Wait a minute.  You're changing your statement.  You said that a true heavyweight champ should have at least 25 on their record.  And, if you have just a handful of fights, you should not be considered a real champ. 

  I just threw a random number. I believe that a true veteran is someone who has at least 20 fights as a professional with at least 75% winning rate against decent competition. 

That's a ridiculous statement.  Last year, there was some guy that came out of nowhere and won a major marathon, beating all the season pros and breaking all sorts of records.  It was the dude's 1st marathon, yet he had the best time...he won that race...he was the best. 

It's not different in MMA.  Who cares if you have 30 fights on your record.  If someone beats your ass, they're better than you...end of story.

  This is a very bad analogy. In a marathon, you know who is the best by who finishes first. That is the end of the story. In MMA, the value of your win depends on who your competition is. When it comes to marathon running, you know who is the best in the World because the measure of best is decided by a single number, namely, the amount of time the runner took to complete the marathon. In MMA, who is best is decided by who you fight. Being the best in the World for defeating Brock Lesnar, a guy with a 5-2 record, is not as impressive as becoming the best in the World by defeating a guy who is 31-1. Huge difference. Unlike in running, you cannot decide who is the best by an objective measure. In MMA, the value of your win is completely and utterly relative to the men you defeat.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

[Geo]

 If the UFC wants to give it's heavyweight division credibility, it needs to bring either Overeem, Fedor or Barnett to it's division. It is the only way. Having a bunch of noobs with a few fights decide who is the "best in the World" by fighting each other is ridiculous. To be the best, you need to beat the best, and guys who have a total of 5 fights with 3 wins over other noobs with a few fights or geriatric ex fighters do not count as worthy rivals that, if you defeat, you can claim to be the best. Again, it is ridiculous. Nogueira or Randy could give the UFC heavyweight the credibility it needs, but the problem is that Couture is pushing 50 and Nogueira is clearly brain damaged and with arthrites evident by his bad knees and back. He is clearly past his prime and the fact that he's 33 doesen't mean anything. Beating these two seasoned vets mean little. To give the UFC heavyweight title the severitas it needs, you need to bring a seasoned vet who is still more or less in his prime to the UFC heavyweight division and see if the UFC boys can compete with the guy. If he wins, the title goes to a worthy and proven heavyweight; if he loses, the UFC boy who beat him can claim to be the best in the World becuase he beat a veteran who is still at the peak of the game.

  Fedor may not be the best heavyweight in the World anymore - debatable -, but he sure has something that the UFC sorely needs: resumee. He is like Randy and Nog, except that he hasn't become a tomato can do to extremely old age or brain and physical damage. The same is said about Barnett and Overeem. These three are the only heavyweights in the World that fulfill the conditions of being seasoned and still in their primes, although Barnett is pushing it.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

don't you ever get tired of chasing your tail...

you don't like the UFC because only hardcore fans watched pride back in the day (we get that),but give it a rest,it's almost to the point where I'm gettin embarrassed for ya just reading your crap.


and that's not even taking into account how much time you're taking to type all your shit up..

[chaos]

don't you ever get tired of chasing your tail...

you don't like the UFC because only hardcore fans watched pride back in the day (we get that),but give it a rest,it's almost to the point where I'm gettin embarrassed for ya just reading your crap.


and that's not even taking into account how much time you're taking to type all your shit up..

Geo bringing a brutally rational truth to the thread.

[CARTEL]

The HW divisions in both Strikeforce and the UFC are pretty damn weak right now. Both are very top-heavy.

Can't wait to see JDS and Cain fight and hope to see Fedor against Werdum and Overeem pretty soon.

[Geo]

The HW divisions in both Strikeforce and the UFC are pretty damn weak right now. Both are very top-heavy.

Can't wait to see JDS and Cain fight and hope to see Fedor against Werdum and Overeem pretty soon.

are you nutz?,name a time and the fighters in that time when the UFC heavy weight division was more stacked than it is now...

Werdum's a UFC washout and Overeem is a roided up Lt Heavtyweight that Liddel smoked...

barnett would be mediocre in either but he can't pass a drug test these days..

the brutal truth is you Have Fedor in strike force and you have 4-5 monsters in the UFC that on most given nights can beat each other...

[suckmymuscle]

are you nutz?,name a time and the fighters in that time when the UFC heavy weight division was more stacked than it is now...

Werdum's a UFC washout and Overeem is a roided up Lt Heavtyweight that Liddel smoked...

barnett would be mediocre in either but he can't pass a drug test these days..

the brutal truth is you Have Fedor in strike force and you have 4-5 monsters in the UFC that on most given nights can beat each other...

  Epic UFC nug-hugging post. You have no valid points and resort to pure fanboyism. Bringing up that Liddel beat Overeem when Overeem was a rookie in his early twenties fighting at 190 lbs is just sad. Only an UFC fanboy who is desperate would even bring this up.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

[Hedgehog]

I think the UFC HW division is looking better right now than it has in a very long time.

That's not saying it's great.

One mistake I can point to is how certain fighters have been getting title shots without working their way up.

Hindsight is always 20/20 I guess, but allowing both Carwin and Lesnar to get shot at the title with so few fights under their belt doesn't make sense.

I get that UFC wants to cash in on Lesnar's fame.

But what you get is a champ with big chinks in his armor.

Doesn't look like that in any other weight class.

But the HW class looks like it can be pretty stacked the next few years. Look at a guy like Junior Dos Santos, not to mention current champ Cain Velasquez.

Lesnar and Carwin will have big, big, BIG difficulties with fighters like these.

[MindSpin]

  Epic UFC nug-hugging post. You have no valid points and resort to pure fanboyism. Bringing up that Liddel beat Overeem when Overeem was a rookie in his early twenties fighting at 190 lbs is just sad. Only an UFC fanboy who is desperate would even bring this up.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

Bro, you've had your ass owned every which way possible.  Stop with the nonsense already.

[coltrane]

I laugh when ppl talk of Overeem as the next coming of Fedor.  Who's he fought?  Rogers?  lol.

He got ko'd by Liddell, Shogun.. beaten by LITTLE nog twice.  Now he's on some gear and beating dudes like Rogers and James Thompson in the HW class and obviously winning.

Cain would destroy him.  Carwin would KO him fast.  Lesnar would crush him. 

Until Overeem fights and beats someone GOOD, i'll speak otherwise on him.    Werdum submitted him as well. 

[CARTEL]

Carwin would KO him fast.  Lesnar would crush him. 

I don't know how you can say this. Their last fights have showed MAJOR flaws in their game.

Not saying Overeem would run through them but I wouldn't bet against him.

Other than JDS and Cain, I'm really not impressed by the UFC heavyweights. The same thing can be said about Strikeforce. Hopefully there are some up and comers moving along in both orgs.

[suckmymuscle]

Bro, you've had your ass owned every which way possible.  Stop with the nonsense already.

  This post is so wrong it can't be for real. Lol, I am getting owned in this thread? Then why several people have quoted my posts and said that I am owning you and that they agree with me?

SUCKMYMUSCLE