For Those Who Pray

[NarcissisticDeity]

Aww, well that's just too bad isn't it?

Not really , it's a great time you can publicly mock your absurd beliefs and not have to worry about being labeled a heretic , or a witch and suffer the consequences for it

[pellius]

Look, commit a crime, do the time. I have no problem with that. Punish the bad guys/gals to the full extent of the law - excellent! I'm not naive, nor am I apologetic about such horrid events. However, I don't play the race game like 3.14, nor do I believe in the death penalty, which doesn't work on any level except for the need for a sense of society revenge.  We live in the violence/crime-'freest' times in known history - let's just try to keep some perspective, is all I'm saying. 

I'm not sure what you mean about the "race game" in regard this incident. Or what you mean by "Playing it."

You believe in punishment don't you? You just stated that you did? Why? Because it is a deterrent. That's obvious. And it should be obvious that the harsher the punishment the bigger the deterrent. Any given infraction would be viewed quite differently if the consequence was a literal slap on the hand, or getting your hand chopped off.

What's worse? Life in prison or death? I know some claim it's life in prison even though most everyone sentence to the death penalty fight for their lives to get off death row. What if we say that if you murder someone on odd days of the month the most you can get is life in prison and if you murder someone on even days you will get the death penalty.

Of course getting the death penalty in the US court system is quite different than getting the death penalty from the Mexican Mafia. The latter is a bit more prompt in carrying out their sentence and therefore far more effective.  

Death, in it's finality, therein lies it deterrence. And virtually all punishment is a form of retribution, i.e., punishment.

I'll give you some arguments for the death penalty but I think we are high jacking Coach's thread. But it is important and related to this thread because it addresses the very real issue of how do we reduce incidences like these. These shoot outs, use to be called "going postal" because it all started in the late 1980s early 1990s when people started shooting up innocent people seem to come disproportionately from those working for the USPS. This is a very recent phenomenon. And there's a reason for it.

If it's OK with Coach to use this thread to discuss issues like gun control, death penalty, deterrence, crime and punishment then I'll wait for his permission. I'm already late but will check back later.

[pellius]

I do not go round getting wound up at athiests yet they seem pretty annoyed at me privately expressing my beliefs in a secluded building with other like minded people.

Crazy!

You are secure in your beliefs. You are secure in the fact that there are others that differ from you. In general, the contrast between a believer and a non believer is glaring and speaks volumes on where a person's heart lies. That one considers it a "great time" in mocking others that differ from them.

You're a good man, Ursus. I've always considered you one of the more decent people on this board and I believe it is because of your religiosity.

[NarcissisticDeity]

I do not go round getting wound up at athiests yet they seem pretty annoyed at me privately expressing my beliefs in a secluded building with other like minded people.

Crazy!

Nope you have atheists all wrong , I can only speak for myself , however I feel I can speak for a lot of atheists that you have the freedom to believe what ever fairy tale you'd like in the privacy of your own home , place of worship

Yet we ( I'm taking some liberties here ) get annoyed when YOU people push your religion on the rest of us and the rest of society , in the forms of laws that prevent stem cell research , gay marriage , teaching pseudoscience in our schools ( creationsism ) , trying to pass laws that interject your religious garbage onto the rest of society

Keep your fairy tale to yourself and we've got no problems.

[The True Adonis]

Grandpappy told my pappy, back in my day, son
A man had to answer for the wicked that he done
Take all the rope in Texas
Find a tall oak tree, round up all of them bad boys
Hang them high in the street for all the people to see

[Coach is Back!]

Do what you gotta do ND it only makes us stronger and makes you people look like idiots.

[NarcissisticDeity]

You are secure in your beliefs. You are secure in the fact that there are others that differ from you. In general, the contrast between a believer and a non believer is glaring and speaks volumes on where a person's heart lies.

Christians in particular are like vegetarians , they just can't be happy with their decision they have to force it on everyone else

If your religion was all it was cracked up to be it would be content that it's the right philosophy and let people find it on their own but then again it has a long history of forced conversions of many indigenous peoples , that speaks volumes on where their heart lies , the great thing is they can't get away with that anymore.

[Ursus]

Nope you have atheists all wrong , I can only speak for myself , however I feel I can speak for a lot of atheists that you have the freedom to believe what ever fairy tale you'd like in the privacy of your own home , place of worship

Yet we ( I'm taking some liberties here ) get annoyed when YOU people push your religion on the rest of us and the rest of society , in the forms of laws that prevent stem cell research , gay marriage , teaching pseudoscience in our schools ( creationsism ) , trying to pass laws that interject your religious garbage onto the rest of society

Keep your fairy tale to yourself and we've got no problems.

I went to a Roman Catholic school therefore was with other like minded people. Did you know that faith schools have been shown to educate to a much higher standard - surely thats a good thing!

I force my religion on no one. Religion is a personal thing for me not something that you scream and shout about.

You are wrong about me and my faith. Gay marrige does not bother me. Nor do people who believe in creationism in its most literal form. Simply because I do not believe something does not mean I get offended when others do.

My religion should offend no one unless they go looking and try to take offence. I do not force my religion on anyone - not my friends or family

Thank you Pellius!

[dr.chimps]

I'm not sure I understand your point. Coach was essentially making a point that qualified people should be allowed to carry firearms. You replied how do we do that. My response is that we already do. Are you implying that policemen should not be allowed to carry firearms.

And don't flatter yourself. I am not trying to impress you. I come from a different perspective when it comes to moral issues. I truly want to know what is right. How do we make good people? How do I become a good person? I have a vested interest in knowing what is right and good? So I welcome any and challenges because it doesn't matter to me if I am proved right or wrong. If I'm no one can refute me that it reinforces my belief that I am on the right track. If I am proven wrong then I am a wiser and better person. And like I said, I have a vested interest to being on the right path. You seem more concerned with just winning an argument or debate.

Hmm. You interpolate far too much. My point regarding Coach's post was that we can make efforts, towards being 'qualified,' like a police force, but trying to 'qualify' morality or sanity is no guarantee against future horrifics. To think otherwise, would be fool-hardy.

And, I only flatter myself self-deprecatingly, and I never (rarely, is more likely) look to impress. My writing style sometimes suggest this, tho. Please excuse this. As to morality, being proved right or wrong, or  or winning or losing an argumnet or debate, as you say, is philosophically interesting but, ultimately, illusory. Each of us, every one of us, is at any one time capable of the utmost evil as well as grace. You can't 'make' good people, nor can you, yourself, have a 'vested' interest in 'good' anymore than you can in 'evil.' I'm not a religious person, as you might have surmised, but I ran into someone years back (who is [was/now dead] a religious figure) who told me 'We're all unredeemed sinners...so try not to be c*nty all the time.' You could do worse.  

[dr.chimps]

I do not go round getting wound up at athiests yet they seem pretty annoyed at me privately expressing my beliefs in a secluded building with other like minded people.

Crazy!

Then, they are not worth your effort getting wound up. 

[Ursus]

Then, they are not worth your effort getting wound up. 

Agreed!

[pellius]

Grandpappy told my pappy, back in my day, son
A man had to answer for the wicked that he done
Take all the rope in Texas
Find a tall oak tree, round up all of them bad boys
Hang them high in the street for all the people to see

I'm glad you are on this thread because at least you will take on a challenge. Do you believe in private gun ownership? Do you believe, in general, that all else being equal, being a religious person will make you more likely to be good than being an atheist or someone without any values system outside of themselves in which they are held accountable to. Also, I post a question to Tbombz earlier on this thread about the various scenarios with regard to gun ownership and challenge anyone to give their views. People generally balk at this because they think it's some kind of trick. If you are sincere and secure in your beliefs you cannot be tricked.

Now I'm really late

[NarcissisticDeity]

Do what you gotta do ND it only makes us stronger and makes you people look like idiots.

It doesn't make you stronger , it highlights the ridiculousness of your belief , and you talk about looking like an idiot? it would be to simple to highlight all the things that make believers look like idiots but you get the point.

[dr.chimps]

I'm not sure what you mean about the "race game" in regard this incident. Or what you mean by "Playing it."

You believe in punishment don't you? You just stated that you did? Why? Because it is a deterrent. That's obvious. And it should be obvious that the harsher the punishment the bigger the deterrent. Any given infraction would be viewed quite differently if the consequence was a literal slap on the hand, or getting your hand chopped off.

What's worse? Life in prison or death? I know some claim it's life in prison even though most everyone sentence to the death penalty fight for their lives to get off death row. What if we say that if you murder someone on odd days of the month the most you can get is life in prison and if you murder someone on even days you will get the death penalty.

Of course getting the death penalty in the US court system is quite different than getting the death penalty from the Mexican Mafia. The latter is a bit more prompt in carrying out their sentence and therefore far more effective.  

Death, in it's finality, therein lies it deterrence. And virtually all punishment is a form of retribution, i.e., punishment.

I'll give you some arguments for the death penalty but I think we are high jacking Coach's thread. But it is important and related to this thread because it addresses the very real issue of how do we reduce incidences like these. These shoot outs, use to be called "going postal" because it all started in the late 1980s early 1990s when people started shooting up innocent people seem to come disproportionately from those working for the USPS. This is a very recent phenomenon. And there's a reason for it.

If it's OK with Coach to use this thread to discuss issues like gun control, death penalty, deterrence, crime and punishment then I'll wait for his permission. I'm already late but will check back later.

You know exactly what I'm referring to when I mention 3.14 and race.

The death penalty has been shown in study after study, across nationalities, to serve as no deterrence to violent crime. None. And really, prison is no deterrent either - it's now a super, big business, and just puts bad people away and out of sight.    

[NarcissisticDeity]

I went to a Roman Catholic school therefore was with other like minded people. Did you know that faith schools have been shown to educate to a much higher standard - surely thats a good thing!


I force my religion on no one. Religion is a personal thing for me not something that you scream and shout about.


You are wrong about me and my faith. Gay marrige does not bother me. Nor do people who believe in creationism in its most literal form. Simply because I do not believe something does not mean I get offended when others do.

My religion should offend no one unless they go looking and try to take offence. I do not force my religion on anyone - not my friends or family

Thank you Pellius!

I went to a Roman Catholic school therefore was with other like minded people. Did you know that faith schools have been shown to educate to a much higher standard - surely thats a good thing!

educate to a higher standard by denying evolution and the scientific method? You and I have a very different definition of the term ' higher standard '

I force my religion on no one. Religion is a personal thing for me not something that you scream and shout about.

Your religion forces it's self on everyone it can , although they feel they are the ones now under attack   your religion is the problem if you don't force your point of view on the rest of us then more power to you , I have no problem with you

You are wrong about me and my faith. Gay marrige does not bother me. Nor do people who believe in creationism in its most literal form. Simply because I do not believe something does not mean I get offended when others do.

I'm glad you can think for yourself about gay marriage , and I have no problem with people believing something I don't , the offense if when they try and push it on others , like prayer in public school ( which anyone can do anyway under their breaths , or out loud in recess ) like trying to get equal time for ' intelligent design ' , preventing stem cell research , abortion , etc ,

This behavior offends me , believe your fairy tales all you'd like when you try and make them public policy and force them on the rest of us , is what I hate

My religion should offend no one unless they go looking and try to take offence. I do not force my religion on anyone - not my friends or family

Wrong again , your religion is offensive when it's attempting to dictate how others live , you personally aren't pushing it but your religion is as previously stated.

[tbombz]

In regard to gun ownership there are only four possible scenarios.

1. Nobody owns a gun. Nobody. Even police officers.
2. Everybody owns a gun.
3. Good people owns guns bad people do not.
4. Bad people owns guns good people do not.

Now forget for the moment, for the sake of argument, whether or not these are real possibilities. In your ideal scenario in today's world which would you choose?

Anybody else, you too Coach, feel free to comment. In today's world what would be you ideal scenario? Whether or not any of these are real possibilities is another issue entirely and will be address.

[#1 Klaus fan]

Here in Nevada you can get a conceled weapons permit for here and 33 other states as long as you have no felonies...I have one...All Americans should IMO

And those who were stopped by the police for speeding 30 years ago deserve to get a shotgun shot to the head in execution style. Don't you understand they are just controlling you with this system?

[The True Adonis]

You know exactly what I'm referring to when I mention 3.14 and race.

The death penalty has been shown in study after study, across nationalities, to serve as no deterrence to violent crime. None. And really, prison is no deterrent either - it's now a super, big business, and just puts bad people away and out of sight.    

I don`t agree with the Death Penalty, however I think there are certain cases, such as this when guilt is clear that it can be implemented swiftly.  I am aware of the costs of the appeals and a Capital Trial, however these can be lowered for cases such as these and the firing squad can be ready by the end of the month.  What use does this shitbag have sitting in Prison wasting 50-800 grand plus of the taxpayers money (cost of incarceration depending on how long he lives).  There is nothing to be gained here and he revoked his right to live by taking down nine others.

Also, Prison does separate the animals from the rest of us, but what else is there to do with them?  I favor work camps, chain gang type labor for these people, let them pay for their crimes by fixing things for the society they chose to turn their backs on.  Letting all of them sit in cells does not do us any good and its quite the waste of money.

[Ursus]

FYI my school did not deny evolution at all  In religion I remember learning about the Big Bang Theory etc

Whether you believe religion or not or view it as far fetched as LOTR if you learned the stories and regurgatated it in exams whether or not you believed it and done well it counted as a qualification!

How am I forcing my religion on others?

A personal opinion I have on abortion is that often it is carried out too late when pretty much for all intents and purposes it is a little human - It is more moral issue killing something that looks so much like a human being. Not religion based at all for me personally.

Like I said before any way I went to a Roman Catholic Grammar School - ie it was for Roman Catholics mainly. In integrated schools no religion is taught or if it is it is a general overview of all religions etc.

[Max_Rep]

How about taking these stupid debates to another thread and give the victims some respect.

Another Victim Identified

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/10/seal-beach-shooting-christy-wilson.html  

Seal Beach shooting: Victim testified for suspect's ex-wife

October 13, 2011 |  2:32 pm
 
Friends identified another victim of the Seal Beach shooting rampage as Christy Wilson, a lifelong Lakewood resident and mother of three who worked at the salon.

Linda Stewart, 45, a longtime friend who works at a salon in Huntington Beach, said Wilson was creative, energetic and friendly and was part of a close-knit family. She had worked at the salon for many years and was an expert nail artist. In her spare time, she made and sold jewelry.

"She was everybody's friend," Stewart said. "She had not one enemy, ever."

Wilson was a friend of Michelle Fournier, the ex-wife of alleged shooter Scott Evans Dekraai. Witnesses said Fournier was the target of the shooting and one of the eight who died.

KTLA News reported Wilson was in court on Tuesday, testifying at a custody hearing on Fournier's behalf. Her husband, Paul Wilson, said his wife stood up for her friend because she thought it was the right thing to do.

On Thursday, Stewart put out a call on her Facebook page for people to give gifts of food to the Wilson family, but within a few hours, she was so overwhelmed by responses that she began asking people to donate to the funeral costs instead. She said she is now considering starting a jewelry line in Wilson's honor, with proceeds to go to assist victims of domestic violence.

[Mr. Magoo]

How about taking these stupid debates to another thread and give the victims some respect.

I agree with this.

[dr.chimps]

I don`t agree with the Death Penalty, however I think there are certain cases, such as this when guilt is clear that it can be implemented swiftly.  I am aware of the costs of the appeals and a Capital Trial, however these can be lowered for cases such as these and the firing squad can be ready by the end of the month.  What use does this shitbag have sitting in Prison wasting 50-800 grand plus of the taxpayers money (cost of incarceration depending on how long he lives).  There is nothing to be gained here and he revoked his right to live by taking down nine others.

Also, Prison does separate the animals from the rest of us, but what else is there to do with them?  I favor work camps, chain gang type labor for these people, let them pay for their crimes by fixing things for the society they chose to turn their backs on.  Letting all of them sit in cells does not do us any good and its quite the waste of money.

There certainly have been exceptions -ie. when the defendent pleads guilty and waives all rights and asks for the death penalty. Very, very rare. And death by firing squad is still only on the books in Oklahoma, Gary Gilmore history, aside. And no, having a death penalty inmate in and among, or killed by the general population, has long been known to be verboten. The state/union must exact it's revenge.  

Very costly, very lengthy, very stupid, and yet very, very popular among the voting public is the death penalty.

[Ursus]

How about taking these stupid debates to another thread and give the victims some respect.

Another Victim Identified

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/10/seal-beach-shooting-christy-wilson.html  

Seal Beach shooting: Victim testified for suspect's ex-wife

October 13, 2011 |  2:32 pm
 
Friends identified another victim of the Seal Beach shooting rampage as Christy Wilson, a lifelong Lakewood resident and mother of three who worked at the salon.

Linda Stewart, 45, a longtime friend who works at a salon in Huntington Beach, said Wilson was creative, energetic and friendly and was part of a close-knit family. She had worked at the salon for many years and was an expert nail artist. In her spare time, she made and sold jewelry.

"She was everybody's friend," Stewart said. "She had not one enemy, ever."

Wilson was a friend of Michelle Fournier, the ex-wife of alleged shooter Scott Evans Dekraai. Witnesses said Fournier was the target of the shooting and one of the eight who died.

KTLA News reported Wilson was in court on Tuesday, testifying at a custody hearing on Fournier's behalf. Her husband, Paul Wilson, said his wife stood up for her friend because she thought it was the right thing to do.

On Thursday, Stewart put out a call on her Facebook page for people to give gifts of food to the Wilson family, but within a few hours, she was so overwhelmed by responses that she began asking people to donate to the funeral costs instead. She said she is now considering starting a jewelry line in Wilson's honor, with proceeds to go to assist victims of domestic violence.

Why not lock the thread?

[NarcissisticDeity]

FYI my school did not deny evolution at all  In religion I remember learning about the Big Bang Theory etc

Whether you believe religion or not or view it as far fetched as LOTR if you learned the stories and regurgatated it in exams whether or not you believed it and done well it counted as a qualification!

How am I forcing my religion on others?

A personal opinion I have on abortion is that often it is carried out too late when pretty much for all intents and purposes it is a little human - It is more moral issue killing something that looks so much like a human being. Not religion based at all for me personally.

Like I said before any way I went to a Roman Catholic Grammar School - ie it was for Roman Catholics mainly. In integrated schools no religion is taught or if it is it is a general overview of all religions etc.

My bad , I forgot that the Pope endorses evolution and the Big bang

I agree that you personally aren't forcing your religion on people but they are

I don't agree with abortion ( I have three children ) but I'm all for people who want to get them and I agree that there is a point of no return

Like I said I don't care who believes what until they start trying to dictate their beliefs as public policy or effects me in anyway