PCT opinions.

[IFBBwannaB]

You first post stated 500IU/5days. Which is a large dosage on long intervals.The DR article state that 500IU is a dangerious amount and you did say you follow his advice didnt you?

If you would reread both of the DR articles you would notice he mostly check for blood Test levels.And assume the athrophey is minimal.His follow up article stated that he rather use 2 smaller shots then a big one because of the fast large peaks HCG creates.

Further more from his article:

If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn?t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn?t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive



Now when you add all of his words to the study who specificly checked for ITT which is probably the biggest and best indicator for a juicer on his testy function ,you got it all wraped up.


And I did say E3D is ok :
 ALTHOUGH E3D sound ok too but i wouldnt go over ~350IU ,the DR and the stuides clearly show its counterproductive.



So Im not the one of us who should reread this.I read all of this and much more long ago.
From 500IU/5day you went to 250-500 E3D ,I would say you have changed your mind but wont admit it which is pretty funny.

[Luv2Hurt]

Some people may need a little more than 250IU for a favorable response, MO somewhere in the 250-500 is OK.  Its really not totally critical to keep it to the IU # exactly, just put it in that range and let your body do the rest.  Its really not that complicated.

[DIVISION]

So Im not the one of us who should reread this.I read all of this and much more long ago.
From 500IU/5day you went to 250-500 E3D ,I would say you have changed your mind but wont admit it which is pretty funny.

That's a HUGE jump......500IU e5d ----> 500IU e3d......

Do you see my point?  You're splitting hairs here, bro.

None of this is set in stone, and it all depends on the individual.  I might get in to a long suppressive cycle and decide to go EOD like Hurt2Luv suggested.

Some people may need a little more than 250IU for a favorable response, MO somewhere in the 250-500 is OK.  Its really not totally critical to keep it to the IU # exactly, just put it in that range and let your body do the rest.  Its really not that complicated.

^Exactly.

It's not an exact science.



DIV

[Luv2Hurt]

Hurt2Luv

Hummmm....very interesting......your getting closer

[DIVISION]

Hummmm....very interesting......your getting closer

That's what I call you from now one (Hurt2Luv).........recognize this.

Accept it, it's law.




DIV

[Luv2Hurt]

I submit to your athoritie (said south park style) 

[Luv2Hurt]

Oh yeah one more thing about the PCT stuff.  I guess I'm gonna find out soon REALLY how well I recovered.  Having my annual physical Thursday and having my doc run my test, LH, FSH levels. Will let you guys know when i get em.

[DIVISION]

Oh yeah one more thing about the PCT stuff.  I guess I'm gonna find out soon REALLY how well I recovered.  Having my annual physical Thursday and having my doc run my test, LH, FSH levels. Will let you guys know when i get em.

POST IT UP.

WE NEED THIS!!!!! 




DIV

[BIGMIKE]

THANKS BRO'S FOR ANSWERING W/OUT ANSWERING.LOL.I GET THE POINT.JUST STARTED THIS WEEK.THIS IS WHAT THE WHOLE THING WILL BE LIKE:                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             

WKS 1-12 CYP @ 900 MGS PER WEEK

WKS 1-10 TREN @ 100 MGS EOD

WKS 10-14 PROP @ 150 MGS EOD

WKS 10-16 WINNY @ 50 MGS ED

BY THE END OF THIS WEEK I'LL HAVE TO START HCG/NOLVA AND SEE HOW THIS GOES.I AM OLD SCHOOL,BUT READY ,WILLING,AND CERTAINLY ABLE TO LEARN NEW THINGS...                                      

[DIVISION]

WKS 1-12 CYP @ 900 MGS PER WEEK

WKS 1-10 TREN @ 100 MGS EOD

WKS 10-14 PROP @ 150 MGS EOD

WKS 10-16 WINNY @ 50 MGS ED

BY THE END OF THIS WEEK I'LL HAVE TO START HCG/NOLVA AND SEE HOW THIS GOES.I AM OLD SCHOOL,BUT READY ,WILLING,AND CERTAINLY ABLE TO LEARN NEW THINGS...                                      

Look alright to me.

I would go with Sustanon over Cypionate and would have added the Tren toward the end, but that's minor.

At least you have everything in order and you've tapered from Cypionate to Prop four weeks out.




DIV

[BIGMIKE]

I'D ACTUALLY CONSIDERED USING SUSPENSION JUST FOR THE SAKE OF GETTING ALL THE OIL OUT AND BEING ABLE TO START PCT MUCH SOONER.THIS IS FOR A SHOW IN MARCH,HOWEVER,AND I CAN'T SPARE THE TIME TO EXPERIMENT .NEXT OFFSEASON I'LL TRY IT...

[DIVISION]

I'D ACTUALLY CONSIDERED USING SUSPENSION JUST FOR THE SAKE OF GETTING ALL THE OIL OUT AND BEING ABLE TO START PCT MUCH SOONER.THIS IS FOR A SHOW IN MARCH,HOWEVER,AND I CAN'T SPARE THE TIME TO EXPERIMENT .NEXT OFFSEASON I'LL TRY IT...

Allowing for 4 weeks will allow you to start PCT on-time, why would you want to start any sooner than that?

Suspension has it's drawbacks.........believ e me.




DIV

[IFBBwannaB]

LMAO.

At first you say the only thing that matters is the overall amount you use then you say 250-500 aint a big diffrence..hmmm seem like 100% variable there....

Further more your Dr and the studys show that 500IU is too much.

Just read the article you yourself claimed says the opostie of what I do and notice he even says he dont mind his paitents taking it ED,just as long as they dont use large dosage per injection.

You are all over the map here,each post you make is alot diffrent from the other.

[DIVISION]

At first you say the only thing that matters is the overall amount you use then you say 250-500 aint a big diffrence..hmmm seem like 100% variable there....

Further more your Dr and the studys show that 500IU is too much.

Just read the article you yourself claimed says the opostie of what I do and notice he even says he dont mind his paitents taking it ED,just as long as they dont use large dosage per injection.

You are all over the map here,each post you make is alot diffrent from the other.

You're making judgements you have no basis to make, since you are no more of an "authority" than I am.

I am a Moderator, not the be all, end all guru of all things Anabolic.

Where did you get the idea that I knew the most or was the most experienced here?

There are several guys who are older than me who have run longer more complex cycles. 

The difference between 250IU and 500IU is not enough to warrant getting worked up about.  If you want to get upset over it, by all means, go ahead. 

That's not my Doctor, he's a specialist in the field of HRT who published that article for www.allthingsmale.com

The one study you refer to is just that, ONE STUDY.  If you are basing everything you believe on one ancillary piece of evidence then that is your prerogative.  I'd prefer to keep my options open and do as I see fit. 

How am I all over the map exactly?  You mean the e5d dosing of HCG vs. e3d or eod?

That's all over the map?  I don't think so.  Nothing here is set in stone.  Why is it so hard for you to understand that? 




DIV

[Luv2Hurt]

WannaB, have you used HCG on cycle in this manner?   I'm gonna tell tell you I have, yes you do not wanna desensitize your testes on large doses of HCG that is true.

But It makes no difference if you keep within that low dose range. 250-500mg....damn man even marble said he used 500IU E4D.....and he was the pioneer in this.

Heres the idea, you bang lets say 412 IU HCG in on Monday night, about 24 hours later your testes start to respond and you can feel it, this dose will keep em firing thru wendsday, Thursday your blood HCG (LH) levels are dropping off, it will take another day or so for your testes to sense and react to this.  So this brings us to Friday night, the 4th day, at this time we inject 379IUs HCG, testes are all warm an fuzzy still, atrophy will take about 4-5 days in the complete absence of HCG (LH) before it begins, so there is no problem with this time frame.  After a shot of lets say 364 IU HCG while on a cycle, it will take almost a week (about 3 days covered by the HCG and the other 4 days it takes before they start to die in the absence of LH (HCG).  Remember this is not (HPTA shut down) how it is supposed to work in nature, we are kind of modifying things here, as we all play mad scientist. 

What we are doing is coaxing them along as we go, kind of holding that carrot out there.  One time the carrot (389 iu HCG) is a tiny bit different than the previous one (450 IU HCG)  but the horse's still reach for it.  Just don't over feed em, than they will be full and wont care anymore.

[musclestang]

hey ifbbwannab good to see you back here, i haven't seen you on here in awhile.  i don't think this a such a big deal that everyone has to argue about it but i like the idea and i am goin to try it for my next cycle.  i'll probably do it every three days, but why do you change the dose every time you do it?  hope you keep posting here ifbbwannab like you use to, you have a lot of good experience.

[DIVISION]

WannaB, have you used HCG on cycle in this manner?   I'm gonna tell tell you I have, yes you do not wanna desensitize your testes on large doses of HCG that is true.

But It makes no difference if you keep within that low dose range. 250-500mg....damn man even marble said he used 500IU E4D.....and he was the pioneer in this.

Heres the idea, you bang lets say 412 IU HCG in on Monday night, about 24 hours later your testes start to respond and you can feel it, this dose will keep em firing thru wendsday, Thursday your blood HCG (LH) levels are dropping off, it will take another day or so for your testes to sense and react to this.  So this brings us to Friday night, the 4th day, at this time we inject 379IUs HCG, testes are all warm an fuzzy still, atrophy will take about 4-5 days in the complete absence of HCG (LH) before it begins, so there is no problem with this time frame.  After a shot of lets say 364 IU HCG while on a cycle, it will take almost a week (about 3 days covered by the HCG and the other 4 days it takes before they start to die in the absence of LH (HCG).  Remember this is not (HPTA shut down) how it is supposed to work in nature, we are kind of modifying things here, as we all play mad scientist. 

What we are doing is coaxing them along as we go, kind of holding that carrot out there.  One time the carrot (389 iu HCG) is a tiny bit different than the previous one (450 IU HCG)  but the horse's still reach for it.  Just don't over feed em, than they will be full and wont care anymore.

Thanks for that analogy.......

That's exactly what I was trying to convey.






DIV

[IFBBwannaB]

I have written a complete reply but decided this is a lost cause.
So I will just summrize this.

HCG while on juice should be taken EOD-E3D at doage of around 350IU.
The article you refer to as your base of knowlage give that as an outline,and the study I posted give more specific details on doage and intervals.
Thus my conclusion.

You failure to understand that 100% is alot and almost twice longer intervals is alot of time in an hourly based substance is your problem.


To Luv2Hurt:

Your analogy is quite wrong since LH is realsed in pulses in the body and it does while on juice HCG is the only LH present.Waiting for athrophy to start is beyond me,prevent it before it happen dont keep it on the edge.

Further more you should known that hormonal spikes are really bad and mainteining stable levels of hormons especialy as importent as LH is critical.

[Luv2Hurt]

To Luv2Hurt:

Your analogy is quite wrong since LH is released in pulses in the body and it does while on juice HCG is the only LH present.Waiting for atrophy to start is beyond me,prevent it before it happen don't keep it on the edge.

Further more you should known that hormonal spikes are really bad and maintaining stable levels of hormones especially as impotent as LH is critical.

Wanna:  Your reply was kind of hard to read the way you wrote it it did not make a whole lot of sense, you may wanna re-write that.

If you would have read what I wrote I never said to wait for atrophy cause if shooting HCG it will not get that way till about day 7 or so.  Like I said it takes 4-5 days for atrophy to set in AFTER all the LH is gone.  I said shoot it Monday and around Thursday they are looking for more, but atrophy will not start for a few more days and you will be shooting the stuff Friday...so your nuts are still very happy.

"Realeased in pulses"?  well it really don't matter much what happens when your HPTA is working, we are talking about using HCG in times of a shut down HPTA.  Pulses sounds more like my damn way anyhow as opposed to your "steady" method.

Your logic is in contradiction.  You really never did say if you even had any real personal experience using HCG?? 

PS I spell checked your post.....you may wanna do that next time it will help it make more sense.  But hey bro thats what we are all here for...to debate this stuff and your opinion is valuable.....have a great holiday season and I encourage more of this open debate 

[IFBBwannaB]

First off I speak more languages then English and English aint my first language.

I did use HCG and many friends followed my method and felt great with it.

LH pulses arent once per week as you think but more around every hour or so.I dont remember the exact number.

Your analogy is based on your daily logic,it dosent work that way.And Im not going to start explaining that.


Do as you may,feel free to let your cells start dying and then desanetizing them and then waiting again...and over and over...sigh.

[Luv2Hurt]

LH pulses arent once per week as you think but more around every hour or so.I dont remember the exact number.

Why do you say I thought this........this is your information.  Was just using your general statement.

For me it all works out the same.....I kinda think your splitting hairs here and making a moutain out of a mole hill.  But that is fine for you, I think people should do what they feel is right for themselves.  Thanks again for the challanges.....this is starting to remind me of the old days. 

BTW did not know english was not your native language, that explains things.....what is your native tongue?  You got me beat I can only speak one language....props to you!