Author Topic: need some advice on shoulders  (Read 1822 times)

NoCalBbEr

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need some advice on shoulders
« on: April 24, 2007, 09:16:56 PM »
hey everyone
I  wanted to   get some input on shoulder training.  for some reason I've been not doing upright rows. I can never find a place for it. I think that i've put  front raise in the place of it.

it errrs me not to do upright rows b/c its a  compound exerise. I just can't find room for it. i try to limit the exerises to 4..

this is my current shoulder routine
bnp
side laterals
bent laterals
front raise

should i drop the front raise for upright rows? do i need to  hit the front delts with an iso movement??

thx

WhiteCastle

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Re: need some advice on shoulders
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2007, 10:28:31 PM »
Ditch either the front raise or side laterals and add them.  Or, you can just do one less set of each lateral and front raise and toss in vertical rows.  Isolation shoulder exercises are really overrated and for most lifters (i.e. not pros) unneccessary. 

smaul

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Re: need some advice on shoulders
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2007, 02:23:57 AM »
The benefits provided by upright rows to deltoid, traps and upper back mass far outweighs the tiny benefits provided by either lateral or frontal raises. 
It hasn't helped...

untamedsense

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Re: need some advice on shoulders
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2007, 02:26:05 AM »
Here's a thought and how i do it:  I do chest and shoulders on different days.  Since the front delt gets so much work when doing all the pressing movements, I do my front raises on chest day.
This would leave an open spot on shoulder day for upright rows.
And, if you want better results from the uprights...either do them with a wide grip OR do power cleans instead.
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wes

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Re: need some advice on shoulders
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2007, 05:08:32 PM »
drop front raise...front delts get a lot of work on chest day and from pressing exercises.

Emphasize side delt to create more width.

PBN
Lateral Raise
Wide grip upright row (hits lateral head,close grip work traps)
Bent-Over Laterals

jpm101

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Re: need some advice on shoulders
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2007, 07:07:18 PM »
Might consider up-right rows SS'ed with lateral raises. Or the pre exhaust system where the lateral raises are first followed, with no pause, with up-right rows. Though up-right rows involve the traps they also involve the lateral heads strongly. This is by the nature of raising the elbows up and in a a lateral motion, out and away from the body. You can not do that without the aid of the delts.

A wider grip, when doing up-right rows, would change the exercise to a hi-pull. This can have a great effect of the laterial delt head also. Might try doing Hi-pulls (wide grip) for reps and than immediately bring the grip nearer (about thumbs 8" apart) and do more reps. I'm a little bias, the up-right row has been one of my favorite exercises for years. Well worth the time & effort put into it. Remember to keep the bar close to the body during the lift. Raising the bar too far out and away from the body, places way too much stress on the shoulder joints. One of the reasons that up-rows get a undeserved bad rap as a dangerous exercise. Good Luck.
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wes

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Re: need some advice on shoulders
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2007, 04:39:45 AM »
For Wider Rounder Delts..........Try This out !!
                                                                  by Tim Wescott

Nothing offsets a good physique like an impressive pair of cannonball deltoids. The problem for most people however is how to go about attiaining a pair!!

I`ll skip over the anatomy of the deltoid muscle as most bodybuilders will have the general idea about how delts work, and how the muscle has three heads which should all be trained,except for the beginning bodybuilder of course,but this article is aimed at intermediate or advanced bodybuilders whose delts have stopped growing,are stagnated mentally and would like a fresh approach, or whose delts are responding very slowly to training.

First thing,let me say that for the most part,you should focus on mass of course,but balance between the deltoid heads is paramount for a nice round appearance. Too many bodybuilders have big anterior delts from pressing,benching,and doing inclines, etc.,and as a result,their development is not in proportion.

Here is a routine that I have tested personally,and have also given to lots of my clients at various times....I have yet to see anyone who doesn`t progress from doing it as long as it is done in the manner as it is written.


Here ya` go............ do a set of strict  Lateral Raises for 10-12 reps,followed by a set of Bradford Presses,for 8-10 reps, with no rest in between the two exercises,Super-Set style......rest 45-60 seconds only,add weight, and repeat this procedure for a total of 4 sets each,adding weight and decreasing reps each set,(you may want to use a constant poundage on laterals...your choice, but keep them strict, and pull with the side delts......do not swing the bels up using momentum), then go back to your original starting weight on your last set,and go to failure on each exercise, regardless of how many reps you can get.

The reps are just goals or targets to aim for, but laterals should be a minimum of 10 reps on the heaviest set,and the Bradford Presses should be at 8 minimum at the heaviest point.

Doing both exercises with a constant weight, and resting only 30 seconds between Super-Sets is another good way to perform these,especially if you do not feel particularly strong on any given shoulder day.

Here is a "how to" on performing Bradford Presses:

Place a barbell at the shoulders as you would in a normal barbell front press,press to just the top of the head,then lower it behind the neck,press again just clearing the top of the head,and lower to the front again,and repeat unil you reach your rep goal................back and forth,front to back,just clearing the crown of the head.

To reiterate,the bar should just be clearing your head...you do not lock out......this non-locking motion keeps continuous tension on the shoulders and doing the laterals before the presses in Pre-Exhaust Super-Set style without rest, is a  foolproof method for increasing intensity,resulting in bigger deltoids.

Again,I have trained tons of people and never have seen anyone fail to improve their delts with this combo.

Now onto the next exercise where we will once again focus on the lateral deltoid in an effort to increase shoulder width.

Behind The Back Laterals:
Just as written,you do a lateral but bring the bellls behind the butt instead of to the front as you would in performing a normal lateral raise.......better stretch,and better isolation............... ....three sets,10-15 reps


Now we move onto the often neglected rear delts, I do around six sets total, a Super-Set consisting of Bent-Over DB Laterals ,or Incline Rear Delt Raises.....your choice, coupled with Face-Pulls,also for 3 total sets.....no rest between exercises,and only 30 seconds rest between Super-Sets.

Explanation of Face-Pulls:
Grab a high pulley with a rope attatchment and pull to the face while keeping the elbows wide.......really targets the rear delts.

Explanation of Incline Rear Delt Raises:
Lie face down on a 30 to 45 degree incline bench holding 2 moderately weighted dumbells.......with thumbs facing each other,do a bent-over lateral while lying on the incline.


That`s it,but remember to train strict,as heavy as possible for the targeted rep range,and keep rest periods minimal.

To recap:
Super-Set # 1:
{Laterals:
4 x 10-12 (very strict,no swinging or heaving)
{Bradford Presses:
4 x 8-10 (seated or standing)

Laterals Behind Back:
3 x 10-15

Super-Set # 2:
{Bent-Over DB Laterals or Incline Rear Delt Raise: (alternate from workout to workout)
3 x 12-15
{Face-Pulls:
3 x 15-20

There ya` go.........nothing fancy or scientific,just very result producing!!

Give it a shot and possibly,just possibly now,you may have to turn sideways to enter a room because you got so W-I-D-E !!!!

This routine works well and you can thank me later for the bowling balls that you created !!

jpm101

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Re: need some advice on shoulders
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2007, 08:39:44 AM »
Good program offer from Wes, though most guy's will want to approach the Bradford press with caution. This is another learning exercise that may requie a little time to master. Warmups and shoulder flexability being the main concern. This style press is a  good example of a TUT (time under tension) movement. I would only suggest a light to moderte weight be used, no matter how strong you are in regular overhead pressing. Good luck.

Side Bar: Cannonball delts are better than bowling ball delts. Because you do not have to have three finger holes drilled in each side of the the shoulders with cannonball delts. Of course, both are Weider principles.
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Mike

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Re: need some advice on shoulders
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2007, 12:49:24 PM »

Side Bar: Cannonball delts are better than bowling ball delts. Because you do not have to have three finger holes drilled in each side of the the shoulders with cannonball delts. Of course, both are Weider principles.

A rare glimpse of the comedic side of JPM, where has this been?

I like the way wescott thinks outsie the box and gives some new exercises and variations to the old ones, great additions!

My only comment would be to do some handstand pushups for fun.  Challenging and they will turn a few heads, plus they are fun.


wes

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Re: need some advice on shoulders
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2007, 01:12:32 PM »
Thanks guys,if I tried handstand pushups,I`d probably break my neck!!  :)

Gotta` edit my article and swith "bowling ball' to "cannon ball" !!  LOL  :)

The Squadfather

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Re: need some advice on shoulders
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2007, 01:46:05 PM »
good stuff Wes, no wonder you've got a great build with that type of training.

wes

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Re: need some advice on shoulders
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2007, 02:34:56 PM »
Thanks Dave,I keep trying to outrace Father Time but that bastards pretty fast!

jpm101

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Re: need some advice on shoulders
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2007, 07:56:07 PM »
Mike: When I first came to this site a number of years ago I did try giving a little tongue in cheek in some of my post. Hoping to keep it light and not too serious. Working out is really pretty simple, not that serious.. Most guy's just did not get it. Or else respond to the usual A Hole remarks of name calling, etc..  Lot of computer courage guy's who have come here and try acting tough, but they only sound stupid in the long run.  So I figured, what's the point, just offer some suggestion straight up. I write a lot of progress reports (sports related) and such, with my job(s) so my style is kept that way, usually when I post here. Not saying BB'ers are not smart, just not well rounded, when it comes to handling a lot of different training ideas and views..Way too serious at times.  Good Luck.
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Mike

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Re: need some advice on shoulders
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2007, 04:12:04 AM »
Mike: When I first came to this site a number of years ago I did try giving a little tongue in cheek in some of my post. Hoping to keep it light and not too serious. Working out is really pretty simple, not that serious.. Most guy's just did not get it. Or else respond to the usual A Hole remarks of name calling, etc..  Lot of computer courage guy's who have come here and try acting tough, but they only sound stupid in the long run.  So I figured, what's the point, just offer some suggestion straight up. I write a lot of progress reports (sports related) and such, with my job(s) so my style is kept that way, usually when I post here. Not saying BB'ers are not smart, just not well rounded, when it comes to handling a lot of different training ideas and views..Way too serious at times.  Good Luck.

I have to agree.  I've been posting here for the last 4 years and thats the one thing I notice, people take this stuff too seriously. I think the training board is a great place to get some down-to-earth advice straight from the horses mouth(s). 

I tend to get a little cynical from working at a gym and seeing the stupid stuff people do and then just picture them at home logging onto getbig and asking repetitive, stupid questions when all they really need to do is give a little more effort in the gym, pop there head into a few seminars, take an anatomy class (or 12) and possibly have a sit down with a good psychiatrist.

wes

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Re: need some advice on shoulders
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2007, 04:32:35 AM »
:)

jpm101

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Re: need some advice on shoulders
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2007, 08:11:25 AM »
Mike: BINGO!!!!! 

And that point about seeking out a psychiatrist is well taken. I wish I had a dollar for every insecure, confused and socially maladjusted person who post here. I would be very wealthy. Good luck.
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thewickedtruth

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Re: need some advice on shoulders
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2007, 08:54:19 AM »
wide grip upright rows and seated military presses are IMHO the only two exercises you'll ever need to develope great shoulders.  As long as you're always changing something i.e. reps, sets, weight, etc...wthese two should build you a nice set of caps.